What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ateixeira

I was under the impression that all cars in Brazil had to be FFV up to 100% ethanol?

Sort of. I read that pump gas is actually E20 now, 20% ethanol, and they're proposing E25!

Keep in mind they make ethanol from sugar cane and can do so profitably, unlike corn ethanol which needs subsidies.

I imagine the fuel system needs to be modified slightly to deal with the higher ethanol content, and yes a lot of models are FFVs.

Ethanol costs less than gas but it holds less energy, so you pay the same per mile but lose range. For that reason, most Brazilians fill up with the E20 stuff.

gagrice

I understand the ethanol from sugar cane is more profitable. I just remember the last time Brazil pushed ethanol cars then found sugar cane was more profitable as sugar. That left some people with ethanol only cars with no fuel. At least the new ones are either or. Makes more sense with fickle governments. Brazil no worse than ours.

ruking1

Gasoline gal equivalent

In the context of BTU/cost/ efficiency / mpg ethanol to E85 post lower values for higher costs. In the context of higher per mile taxation, it makes all the sense in the world. D2 even in a Touareg CUV (EPA 23 H/28 H) posts app 22% better fuel mileage.

gagrice

Ethanol only makes sense if it takes less energy to produce than what you get out of it. Corn no way, sugar cane maybe. Mileage wise they claim the E100 vehicles get good mileage? I doubt it they are close to a comparably sized diesel car or truck.

ruking1

Corn (basic food stuffs) for (ethanol) fuel is a real world wide tragedy. However, I think that is part of the plan. The tragedy is it grossly limits the crop available as food while it increases the cost of a basic food staple, for in effect NON food purposes.

I just saw in passing that a bushel of corn is something like $ 7.83. Some opine it could go to $9.00. Corn and corn products are almost literally interwoven into the economic system. It can and does effect almost everything and at every level. Almost all know the USA especially in corn growing areas are in a crop destroying mode.

D2 (23.4%) on the other hand is a natural consequence of refining a barrel of oil (42 gals) to gasoline (46%) Just on the ratios alone it is only logical the passenger diesel fleet be a min of 23% diesels. As most folks know diesels are only 5%. This of course means that we use more oil than we need to. But then, that has been the longstanding plan all along with little deviation. It is well known that nearly 20% of the diesel produced in the US refineries gets EXPORTED. Yet even those environs calling for the decrease in oil use and importation really do not know what this means.

xwesx

Perhaps I missed the boat on this topic, but why would ethanol production from corn impact the food crop it produces? Isn't the ethanol process driven by the cane of the plant? It would seem, based on the post you made, that the ethanol is made from the fruit itself, which doesn't make any sense to me, either.

In eastern Oregon where I grew up, farmers started baling their wheat and barley stubble (the plant that is left in the field after the fruiting bodies are harvested) in the late 1990s and selling it to paper (?) mills rather than simply plowing it under as they had done in the past. At the time, it was thought to be an economic boost to their yearly processes because it gave them essentially two harvestable crops per year rather than just the food crop.

I'm not sure if it worked out to be profitable over the long term or not, as obviously there are additional operating costs (equipment, fuel, maintenance, etc) and less nutrients cycling back into the soil, so likely more fertilizer cost over time. I haven't visited the area in a while now during harvest season, so I cannot comment on whether the practice is still employed.

Long story short, though, is that the food and non-food uses of the crop were not mutually exclusive. That is not the case for ethanol production from a corn plant?

Of course, there is something you would lose... corn syrup. That is such a health pariah these days though, I'm not sure anyone would be too broke up about it. For sugar cane, though, I can see why it is either/or.

ruking1

Corn ethanol

Since the law mandates a percentage of ethanol in RUG/PUG, with the latest drought scenarios, do we think the price of a gal of gas will go UP or down?

ateixeira

Keep in mind all the rain they get in Brazil. Part of the reason sugar cane grows so easily.

They squeeze the juice of it. You can drink it pure, it's actually tasty. Or distill and make cachaca, fire water. Like grain alcohol only sweeter.

Press fresh lemon and mix with ice and make a Caipirinha. Now you're talking.

Plentiful supply so they're not really competing food vs. fuel.

gagrice

The ethanol produced in the USA from corn only uses the kernel. If they ever figure out how to make ethanol economically from biomass then the stalks would be of value. So far it is the holy grail of ethanol. No commercial biomass ethanol stills are up and producing last I heard. We have spent a good deal trying though.

I agree on our over use of high fructose corn syrup. I try to avoid at all cost. I don't drink any soda or juice I did not squeeze or blend myself. It is almost all made with Chinese apple juice concentrate and or HFCS, nasty at best. At least 70% comes from China now.

ruking1

Indeed the stalks or other than the fruit and sometimes support systems (cob/wrapper) are normally ground up by the John Deere combines and distributed back onto the corn field.

ateixeira

I'd like to see them trade more with Brazil.

A while back we used to get lots of orange juice from there. Then Fittipaldi gulped OJ instead of milk at the Indy 500 (remember that fiasco? His family owns orange groves) and the US slapped something like a 40% import duty on OJ from Brazil. Now they export to Europe.

Meanwhile China gets most favored nation status. Why?

Also, OJ went from $0.99 a box to about 3-4 bucks. :sick:

Floria farmers aren't complaining. The consumer gets the shaft.

ruking1

Given the present scenarios of the European Debt debacle, how is the OJ exportation working out for them?

xwesx

Huh; I didn't realize that. You can tell how much I've paid attention to the intro of the stuff! Thankfully, we don't have to worry about it in AK yet. We pay among the highest prices without having to add more expensive additives to the fuel or tacking large state taxes onto the price. Hey, it's better for the companies in the oil business that way! :sick:

I guess it depends on when you harvest as to how much sugar is in the biomass and it just isn't compatible between a marketable food crop and use of the rest of the plant. My cornstalks right now are pretty darn sweet as they begin to tassel.

gagrice

I gave up trying to grow corn in Anchorage. You get more sun in Fairbanks. I thought about the rhubarb that comes up every year in Anchorage, when I saw it at the grocery store for $2.99 a pound. We had more of the stuff than we could eat. Made a lot of Strawberry/rhubarb pies and jam.

After working up in AK for 37 years, I don't miss the bad weather at all.

alltorque

Meanwhile China gets most favored nation status. Why?

I presume because China owns so much of the USA's absolutely huge national debt. But that's just a guess.

fintail

Of course, we surrendered that status to China before China held virtually any of the debt. Almost like it's a scheme.

alltorque

f course, we surrendered that status to China before China held virtually any of the debt. Almost like it's a scheme.

Rather like -"Hey you're our best buddies - wanna lend us some money ?" That would seem to suggest pre-determination to the debt. Hmmm, if so, a big can of wriggly things.

fintail

Or maybe some kind of mutually assured destruction that still might favor the US. If we (as in NA in particular) stop buying, they collapse. They don't hold much leverage - if you owe the bank $100, it's your problem - if you owe the bank $100BN, it's the bank's problem. Also not an innovative society with much going on aside from cheap labor, and one with the potential for a societal explosion always lurking just under the surface. We also exist as a place for their crooked officials to hide after they embezzle enough to buy their way in.

gagrice

I think the Chinese are succeeding on the innovation front quite nicely. Thanks to our giving preferential treatment at our colleges and Universities. Last year we gave 150,000 Chinese students college visas. They can put up a skyscraper before we get through the first layer of red tape in the USA. They took German designed high speed rail and made them faster. Yes they steal ideas, Japan stole a lot of ideas after the war. We stole engineers from Germany. That is the name of the game. We have just lost our touch at playing it well.

When will the first cheap Chinese diesel PU hit our shores?

fintail

What innovation? They buy designs or copy them (railroads, electronics, consumer goods), or steal them via joint venture rules (cars, electronics). Innovation, it aint. Not seeing many inventions or better ideas coming from there since the days of gunpowder.

Would you want to live in a Chinese skyscraper? Or commute daily via Chinese high speed rail? Or crash that pickup?

Succeeding in innovation...give me a break.

The student visa thing has always existed - follow the money. Same trail that lets the "investor visa" criminals in.

gagrice

I think you are allowing prejudice get in your way. The only thing that held China back during the last 100 years was Communism. Now that it is somewhat modified the people are showing their natural talents. In a much shorter time frame than it took Japan, Korea and Taiwan. It is only a matter of time before we slip to number two. No one expected the Chinese to be number two by 2012.

The Chinese construction company's innovative 'instant' building techniques recently allowed it to finish this workers' cafeteria.

Now the man behind it, Broad Sustainable Building CEO Zhang Yue, wants to build a 220-storey skyscraper, potentially the world's tallest, in just four months.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2145013/Incredible-video-shows-instant-b- uilders-storey-high-flat-pack-block-just-days--vow-build-worlds-tallest-skyscrap- er-FOUR-months.html

gagrice

Or how about this for innovation. :P

http://now.msn.com/baby-pandas-on-a-slide-is-officially-the-cutest-thing-ever

fintail

I'll take the pandas over the skyscraper. If you want to live in a zillion story Chinese building when it hits 20 years old, be my guest. Just hope and pray against earthquakes, fires, storms, etc - as their rail debacle has proven, there is graft on every level.

Not seeing any real homegrown engineering prowess there.

China is number two in wealth gleaned from the west maybe, but certainly in no measure of human development. If it's so great, maybe a bunch of old bitter overly-monied neocons should move there. Of course, they would risk their entitlements here.

And they subsidize gasoline, so no big demand for diesel cars :shades:

gagrice

I am anti ChiCom. I try not to buy anything from China. Most of the parts in my computer are from Taiwan and S. Korea. I am just a realist and you are living in denial of the reality of what is happening in China today. Now the Germans are whining about China dumping Solar PV panels. If we don't put tariffs on all electronics and get back to mining our own REEs, we will become slaves of the commies.

http://economyincrisis.org/content/german-solar-companies-also-bring-trade-compl- aint-against-china

cdnpinhead

When will the first cheap Chinese diesel PU hit our shores?

When the state of California & the EPA declare it worthy.

In other words, never.

gagrice

I am thinking it will come with a Government Motors nameplate. It will be given waivers, though probably in a gas version first. The Volt will likely be coming from China within a couple years. It is less than 50% USA made now.

ruking1

Indeed that is probably one of the three most logical. GM, Ford, Chrysler, already have been marketing so called "light truck" (aka really HEAVY 3/4 ton PU ) diesels in the US markets, and for decades if not generations. They already have a working relationship and inside track into the "anti diesel " legislatures and regulatory agencies. It would seem the real task is to gain the unions approvals for the passenger car diesel engine endeavors. In that sense, the GM (4 cylinder) Cruse TDI is probably the pioneer or test case. 6 cylinder diesel engines are a logical follow on. 8 cylinder diesel engines would be a "smaller" passenger car version of the larger "small truck" in the bag offerings (aka small block 350 cub in). The practical question is how much UNDER the $ 100 M that Mahindra had to spend with US legislatures and regulatory agencies to in effect get NO product, the big three can spend and how the big three want to spread out the unit costs. Evdiently they got the "NOD" as Cruze TDI endeavors continue.

The real practical problem/issue it would seem to me because the real diesel customer base has little exposure, are (non diesel) (upgraded) transmission costs. Again this is normally opaque to most passenger car drivers, but the A/T on a small truck diesel is a more than stout unit made, for exampe by Allison transmission company (not sure of the correct titles).

Something like this 60 mpg ! DIESEL, but fix it AGAIN tony? has the potential to totally upset the mpg apple cart. :shades: But then on the other hand this is very old news as offerings like this have almost always been available on the European/world markets.

So for example the recent 84+ mpg on an EPA H car of 43 mpg with a 6 speed manual Passat TDI is a demonstration on just how well mated the 6 speed manual is with a TDI engine. Everyone of course knows the difficulty, 95% gassers and app 80+% are so called automatic transmissions. A/T's costing much more already.

fintail

Sorry, I just don't see any real innovation taking place there. Buying or stealing someone else's idea and claiming it as your own is not innovation. Iaiwan and Korea also aren't nearly as criminal or dangerous. I do agree about the tariffs and mining.

Regarding the diesel engine - you can find old Chevy Equinox with a hoary old 3.4 that was actually built in China. I wonder if a similar route would be taken there. I do think GM has a chance of being involved seeing as they play so heavily in that market. Maybe GM is a reason the "most favored" garbage came about.

ruking1

Here is an interesting more non political and less prejudicial take on aspects of the diesel markets. VM Motori

Another take is that in the TDI enthusiast community, albeit SMALL, Bosio stands tall in the fuel injector upgrade path even over German vendors.

gagrice

I think a 2.5L diesel would be ideal for a mid sized PU. The new Ford T6 Ranger being sold all over the World except the USA would be ideal. Ford is not likely to jeopardize they sacred cow the F150 with a 35 MPG Ranger mid size.

A buddy just bought a Ram mega cab. It is so big it would barely fit in my driveway. He tows a 35 ft 5th wheel around the country for his job. That new 6.7L diesel has 800 ft lbs of torque. It is brand new and he got 11 MPG towing that 16k lb trailer down from Montana. Said you don't even know it is back there at 75 MPH.

I don't think I will be interested in the Grand Cherokee diesel if they use the Italian VM engine. I want something with a track record in the USA, using our much stricter emissions equipment. That was what killed the Liberty diesel for the US market. Chrysler kluged up an otherwise good diesel engine to pass the EPA regs.

ruking1

Yes I think a 2.5L Ford diesel ( I am swaging you mean a LARGE 4 cylinder?) would be plenty for that small mid sized PU, given the 2.0 L MB 4 cylinder with 369 # ft of torque (twin turbo?) . I would agree that there is a full court press to keep the (GASSER) F150 and GM and Chrysler competing products from being eclipsed. They not only sell tons of these products in this market segment, but it is easily GM, Ford, and Chyslers most profitable product. With no access to real numbers, and just from stuff I have been able to piece together, I am swaging 15k per vehicle.

From (only one example) living with the 3.0 L VW TDI (for 8,000 miles) it is more than apparent to me that 30-36 mpg is easily achievable even with a 4,974# rig. MPG would be even BETTER sans the more than restrictive emissions controls designed to shave off mpg. The good/bad news is that I can expect it to still be breaking in to 30k to 50k miles and the mpg normally gets better between those mileage ranges, anywhere from 1 to 3 mpg. The real kool thing is even as I swag that mpg will get better, I really do not care. Nor does anyone else for that matter. Saving fuel is really a old but modern day myth. REAL motivation has always been cost per mile driven. So yes, I am one who is glad we have American fuel prices, albeit high for US markets, but far less than 8 to 10 per gal in Euro, with Euro being opaque to me and most folks) with the opportunity to buy (a bit less than full) European fuel sipper consumption rates.

Indeed I am floored by what I do NOT know about Italian diesels on the open market, longer term. Of course the Chrysler/Jeeo product should stop almost anyone in their tracks. From what I know about Italian gassers, I would hope WAY better.

Another snap shot is with daily commute and 2 to 4 drivers (styles) a 3,000 # TDI with 2.0 engine w DSG, consistently gets 41 mpg per tank full, in LA LA LAND like freeway traffic (80H /20 city) Road trip numbers consistently post 42 to 44 mpg.

bpeebles

The Dodge Dakota has been built in Brazil with a 2.5L Detroit-diesel engine for over 10 years.

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/press/date/19980707/press014262.html

It is unfortunate that most of them are shipped to Argentina.

gagrice

This would be my choice in PU Trucks if they ever show up in our 3rd world. They also have a 2.2L diesel option for this truck. VW Amarok is another I could like.

We tested the 3.2-liter diesel, and it is a good match for the truck. It didn’t have to work hard on steep trails, and it didn’t seem to notice anything when we loaded 1,500 pounds of cement bags in back.

This is a fraction of what the Ranger can haul. Depending on the model, you can lug 3,368 pounds in back. The maximum tow rating comes in at a respectable 7,385 pounds.

Ford says the Ranger’s frame is twice as stiff as the previous model and 10 percent stiffer than the Hilux’s frame. It uses leaf springs at the rear and a double A-arm setup at the front with upper and lower joints.

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2011/09/first-drive-2012-ford-ranger.html

ateixeira

To be honest I haven't followed that market since.

All I know is our OJ costs 4 times as much here!

ateixeira

I think a 2.5L diesel would be ideal for a mid sized PU. The new Ford T6 Ranger being sold all over the World except the USA would be ideal

That won the comparison I read in a Brazilian car mag.

They have the new Ranger, a new S10, and the Amarok, none for US consumption.

ruking1

It is probably a reasonable conclusion, that even for the big three, the barriers to entry for the US markets diesel trucks far outweighs the profit potential. The consumers, as a more downstream consequence are shoe horned into poorer performance @ way higher price points and higher operating costs (per mile driven) .

Having no real experience with the 2.5 to 3.2 L 5 cylinder TDI's (truly light and compact trucks) IF a (US market) V6 TDI can get 30-36 mpg with almost utter ease, I am curious as to what those 4 and 5 cylinder TDI's post for mpg.

ateixeira

Great review:

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/07/30/2012-mercedes-e-300-bluetec-hybrid-quick-spin- -review/

adds just over 200 lbs

electric motor capable of 25 hp/184 pound-feet of torque

I managed to hit 44.4 miles per U.S. gallon

Acceleration to 62 mph for our chosen E 300 BlueTEC Hybrid T-Modell is estimated at 7.8 seconds and at 7.5 seconds for the sedan

That's about where the newest Camry hybrid is in terms of MPG and straight line performance, but here you're getting a big, luxurious wagon with nearly 69 cubic feet of cargo capacity, so no compromises.

Great cost-no-object choice among cars. :shades:

ruking1

Even if this TDI/Hybrid hit the US markets, I think it would run into moderate to severe price point resistance. VW Touareg has the V6 supercharged (PUG) hybrid with 380 hp and 428 # ft. By all accounts it is a virtual rocket ship aka like a large V8. As a minimum it carries an app 11k msrp premium. There were no projections as to the percentage of 2012 sales even as they project 8 to 8.5k in (all 4 variants: so called 1. Sport 2. Lux 3. Exc 4. hybrid ;3 engines/4 trim levels) sales.

ateixeira

For $11k I agree.

But it has a smallish battery and 25hp electric motor, those can't cost TOO much.

Let's say they get the premium down to $5k or less, which is realistic IMHO. Then we're looking at less than 10% of what the car sells for, and I think many would opt in.

Even better, the review described the operation as seamless, something that can't be said for the auto on/off on, say, the new BMW 328i gasser.

Mercedes has to meet CAFE somehow, and customers aren't willing to drive Smart ForTwos, so this may be the best route.

fintail

If those actually make it here past the lame marketers who will no doubt still try to get everyone into a gasser, I'd drive one (if I could afford it). Seems like a much better idea than the Lexus "performance hybrid" ideal, which gives little benefit in either direction.

ruking1

It would have been far easier to list the app premium. So really whatever I swag is really just a swag.

ateixeira

TCH actually proved quick. That powertrain now goes in to the ES hybrid.

They got smart and started tuning them for off the line responsiveness, which American consumers love.

LS-H is probably massively heavy. I imagine in that application it's more about zero noise and crawling speeds.

fintail

I am just thinking of the LS hybrid and even the new GS hybrid, which barely give an economy boost, barely give a performance boost, but for the former especially, cost a fortune. LS600h is a white elephant, overpriced, unsold, pointless.

ateixeira

LS did its job - it got on Oprah's TV show and parked itself. A whole generation of wanna-be trophy wives now aspires to own one. They're buying ES hybrids now, probably.

How is the new GS? I focused on the 350 F Sport model so I didn't even look.

Either way, no one has figured out how to sell high end luxury hybrids, even the hybrid champ Lexus. It's a tough nut to crack.

It would be ironic if the Benz Bluetec Hybrid succeeded.

fintail

I don't see the LS600h as doing a job. They barely sold any. I have seen exactly one on the road - and I live in an affluent area with a dealer just several blocks away. White elephant at best. Trophy wives don't want that, they want an SUV.

Info I can see on the GS hybrid has a nominal efficiency gain with a huge price increase and modest performance.

I'd love to see the diesel hybrid succeed - I bet it will in Europe.

ateixeira

Halo effect, though.

Those viewers get an RX400h, but they're still buying Lexus.

fintail

I'd put my life savings on the average RXh buyer not even knowing the LSh existed.

RX would sell to a certain demographic no matter what.

gagrice

The LS Hybrid probably expanded Lexus Carbon footprint by far more than it will ever mitigate. McCartney could have bought a European Hybrid and not polluted the World as he did.

Former Beatle has long been an outspoken advocate of environmental causes and animal rights. He is a vegetarian who won't even wear leather shoes. But now he's being criticized for having a hybrid Japanese car flown to him in Britain rather than having it sent by ship.

It must have seemed like a good idea at the time. The car in question is an $158,000 Lexus LS 600h, a luxury sedan that offers both high performance and a reassuring "green" patina because it uses a hybrid system that relies on an electric motor at low speeds.

Best of all, it was to be a gift from the Lexus car company, which sponsored McCartney's 2005 tour of the United States.

But environmentalists quickly pointed out that the use of a cargo plane to deliver the car to England completely offset any environmental gains resulting from the car's use.

"It's like driving the car 300 times around the world," says Gary Rumbold, the director of the British branch of co2balance, which helps businesses and individuals gauge their carbon emissions footprint.

ateixeira

RX would sell to a certain demographic no matter what

The kind that watches Oprah, no?

ruking1

Entertainers have always been in the realm of make believe. They also have a keen understanding that style ALWAYS trumps substance.

Perhaps another way of saying this is: it is far better to give the appearance or be symbolic rather than have any REAL effect.

Another might be, since he is used to say spending 300,000 to 400,000 for a car spending ONLY 158,000 might be a REAL come down. (yes, life's a beach and then there are the sharks) In S P Mc C's case, why is Lexus sending me this "TRASH"?

It is ironic that his own (people's) enviro cons are doing the criticizing. It might signal that even for them, (of which PMc proports to be) the hypocrisy is WAY over the top.