What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

gagrice

Check out fuelly and you'll see when the V10 TDI was around the mileage reports were not good.

2004 MY was the only year the V10 TDI was sold here. According to the lone person posting their mileage for the vehicle they averaged 27.4 MPG. From what I have read the LS Hybrid does no better than the gas only version. Not that they would be cross shopped. The new version VW Touareg TDI is doing a lot better than EPA estimates.

gagrice

Upon further research I do see they offered the V10 TDI again in 2006-2009.

They were not available in CA as I looked a lot during the time frame for a diesel SUV. MB was all you could find here.

ateixeira

Next auto show you attend, sit in a Fiesta, a Mazda2, a Sonic, then a Fit.

I can't wear a hat in a Focus or a Mazda3, for instance, and those are supposed to be one size up.

I'm comparing hatch models.

VW sells the Fox and the Polo in Brazil. They also have an odd ball called the Space Fox, that's more along the lines of the Fit.

ruking1

i do not need to go to an auto show to sit in any vehicle talked about. Indeed those mentioned vehicles really do not change what I said about the feelings in the FIT.

We also all know the majority of diesel cars offered on Euro/WW markets do not hit the US markets.

Edmunds.com lists 26 models of availabe US diesels. Fully 8 of those diesel models falls into the LARGER THAN LARGE category. This will of course leave 18/602 models or 2.99% being available diesel models. So to give the full context, it is more like 26/602 or 4.3%

gagrice

The VW Beetle I sat in had great headroom. And it does not look like it was designed by someone on drugs. The Fit is popular around here. And a very tall friend has one and loves it. They are still butt ugly. The only way I would consider one is if it had a small diesel engine that got 60 MPG.

ateixeira

I liked the previous Fit's styling more.

My mom owned both. The first one was actually stolen at gun point, yikes. Insurance found the car later but she had already cashed out (she did not want the old one back anyway).

The new one is nicer overall. We've done road trips in both. A little noisy on the highway, but a great city car, even for the 5 of us. That thing turns on a dime. Great for U-turns in tight city streets.

It's a solid little car. IMHO it's Honda's best product (including Acura). For its class, obviously.

gagrice

Hopefully it is better than the 2010 Accord I rented for two weeks. I hated that car. Except the mileage was decent. NOISY on the road. Then That is what most small Japanese cars are, that I have ridden in. I usually rent an SUV like an Explorer or the old Trailblazers. New GM midsize SUVs are junk. The Sequoia is not a bad vehicle. Comfortable and roomy when you take out the back seats. I should not have gotten the Limited as it only has the two seats in the second row. That will teach me to impulse buy a vehicle. I will replace it in the next year. Right now the ML350 Bluetec is top of my list. I like the looks of the Grand Cherokee, BUT, waiting to see what diesel engine they use. It is based on the Mercedes ML chassis, they should just go with the proven engine/transmission. Is Chrysler under Fiat that smart???

ateixeira

I rented one of those, a bit noisy on the highway, otherwise competent if not exciting.

I'm not into sedans, gimme a hatch or wagon instead. That really narrows down the choices, though.

gagrice

I like wagons as well. I loved my 05 Passat TDI. It had two flaws. One the 17" low profile tires were a bit rough riding and it was too low for me getting in and out. I also hate having to drive carefully in and out of driveways with low slung vehicles, like our Lexus. That pretty much leaves me with an SUV/CUV and it has to be a diesel this time. CA gas is just plain crap. ULSD has made the diesels near perfect IMO.

ruking1

..."Right now the ML350 Bluetec is top of my list."...

For the 2012 MY, it would seem that this might be a banner time of the year to make a deal. The 2013 MY is coming out soon. In theory, 2012 assembly is either finishing to closing. In light of the 36,000 (MB ML 350's) they wish to sell in 2012 (BlueTec/CDI population unknown), the lack of information is remarkable. In addition, I have heard of no deal specials, i.e. discounted monies, etc. Historically there were no specials for diesels.

In contrast, the VW T sold 7,535 in 2011 and they prominently give the VW T air time. I think the target from what I can glean is more like 8,00 to 8,500 T's with 20-25% TDI or up to 2,125 units. ZERO % money for up to 60 mo and in some cases 72 mo, if one is in the market for a list of VW's might be a good motivator.

ateixeira

Diesel sales up 27.5%:

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/08/02/diesel-vehicle-sales-up-27-5-so-far-in-2012/

But hybrids grew 63.5%, so there's still plenty of demand for more of both.

I think hybrid supply was restrained last year due to the tsunami, so they're way up this year. Also, the Camry hybrid improved a lot in price/performance, and the Prius family expanded.

Mazda also reported that SkyActiv now represents 60% (!) of their total sales. It's as if the Mazda3 SkyActiv and CX5 were the only things they sell!

That's amazing considering the Mazda3 alone comes with 3 engines, only one of them a SkyActiv.

Imagine what a SkyActiv D will do....

gagrice

Just looking at July numbers MB and Audi are both doing very well with diesels. Lexus needs at least an SUV diesel if they want compete in the Luxury line with BMW and MB. I don't think Lexus ho hum hybrids are enough to counter the luxury diesels.

Sales of the company's BlueTEC diesel models were up 45% for the year at 9,957 compared to the 6,866 diesels sold over the same time last year.

Too bad Audi does not have anything I like. Just cannot get past the ugly front end on the Q7. An A4 Allroad TDI would get my attention for sure.

Sales mix for Audi TDI clean diesel models finish the month at 46.2% for the A3 TDI and 25.9% for Q7 TDI; sales of the Audi A3 TDI increased a solid 28.3% for the month.

ruking1

There are a couple of out of wack juxtapositions here. I personally have not bought a whole lot of cars, in a lot of different countries, or even bought one type of car in a lot of different countries, so anything I say would necessarily be anecdotal and a swag.

Indeed in reading the articles the faults the customer lists are clearly NOT DIESEL related at all !!

So for example, if you are trying to imply that being both a diesel AND a BMW that the car should be flawless, that would be almost totally misleading and on almost all the levels. To try to apply it across BMW models in different countries is even dodgier. (Almost) everyone knows there are HUGE differences between Euro and US models. From what I can glean, some are good and a lot of differences that are illogical and BAD. First off in the US, there are VERY few diesel BMW's as compared to BMW gassers. So just in numbers and percentages alone, one would expect a diesel issue to stand out simply on the far lower percentages alone. So say there are 2% BMW diesels. That means on a 100 cars, 2 would be diesel. Logic says if the error rate is the same, you would see the error on more gassers than diesels. The flip side is if an error (even being NON diesel related) happens on a diesel, the effect (wrongfully) can seem to be magnified.

So now if you are implying BMW a more high end retailer/ seller of performance cars, should step up to the plate regardless, again it would be highly misleading. One in effect would be trolling for disappointment, just as the customer in the article most clearly and probably has.There are of course two sides (or more, usually more) to every story. It will be interesting to see how the case plays out in a "foreign" court. It is interesting that in an anti gun country, they send an ARMED repo squad. In a country (USA) that is supposed to be "pro" gun, an armed repo man is quite odd and almost anathema. I guess the UK is farther on down the 1984 "jack boot" theme than they like to let on.

gagrice

I can tell you what is wrong with that BMW. The Steering wheel is on the wrong side.

In fairness to the dealership. I took my 2005 GMC Sierra Hybrid to the dealership 3 times to get the drivers door aligned to keep out the wind noise. They NEVER got it fixed. Not a safety issue, so not covered by CA Lemon laws. Poor workmanship in MFG seems to be everywhere.

ruking1

In 10 MY's, while far from mainstream, it is indeed heartening to see the TDI populations grow.

While this is purely MY op/ed, a diesel SUV/PU is probably the most logical progression. While this should not be so, it is amazing to me to have a Lexus/Toyota Landcruiser getting 15 to 18 mpg to a TDI or diesel SUV (same weight) get 30-36 mpg, and @ higher speeds to boot.

On the other hand, Edmunds.com did a great article/study on this issue. The upshot is strides in lower mileage vehicle are BETTER than strides in going from say 40 mpg to 45 mpg.

ruking1

Yes, I am getting a lot of anecdotal surprises. The last three VW's that I have bought have literally been delivered flawless. This is not to say I have not or had stuff done to each of them. In some ways I hesitate to say this as it might be perceive as being a VW fan or apologist. I am neither. I do take the trust but verify approach. However, if I were to consider another VW, albeit diesel, my past experiences truly have been positive to include 1970, 1978, 2003 TDI, 2009 TDI, 2012 TDI. I have had more Japanese cars and the experiences really have been far more dodgier, even as I (obviously) like Japanese cars. On the flip side, almost all relatives and friends that favor Euro cars have reported some interesting horror stories.

ateixeira

The best Lexus candidate for a diesel, IMHO, would be the GX.

It's a Land Cruiser Prado underneath, all truck, and I'm certain they have diesel powertrains overseas. It's insulated enough that the noise wouldn't reach the interior, too.

Go ahead and offer the LX with a diesel as well.

Both do very low volumes, though, so I wonder if the math makes it worth certifying them for emissions.

Honestly I think Toyota is scared to do that, some may see them as losing faith in hybrids.

I really think they'll hedge their best and get Subaru to sell diesels instead.

alltorque

It will be interesting to see how the case plays out in a "foreign" court. It is interesting that in an anti gun country, they send an ARMED repo squad. In a country (USA) that is supposed to be "pro" gun, an armed repo man is quite odd and almost anathema. I guess the UK is farther on down the 1984 "jack boot" theme than they like to let on.

Unless I missed something, the article was from Durban which is in South Africa, not the U.K. SA is, I understand, a rather violent country so gun-toting might well be the order of the day. Armed repo-men do NOT exist here, (U.K.), and we're a long way from "1984", although Tony Blair and Gordon Brown both had a good go at getting us closer. :mad:

ruking1

..."Both do very low volumes, though, so I wonder if the math makes it worth certifying them for emissions. "...

I do not think one has to wonder at all, even as a lot of deny ers say the US legislature and regulatory folks do NOT have an anti diesel attitude. The costs are opaque of bringing diesels to the US markets. For that matter they keep the costs to bring hybrids to the US market just as opaque. It has been rumored for years that Toyota ran a loss for the Prius, even as they charged 12,000+ MORE than the Corolla line. But in that sense it was a loss leader to sell its infinitely more profitable PU truck and suv lines. In that sense, it would be a no brainer to say it costs FAR less to bring a hybrid to the US market. I think the Mahindra 100 M and STILL no diesel products was a scandal. So if Manhindra was prohibited from bringing diesels, they really had not much to lose by letting the high costs leak out or stating the previously opaque 100 M cost. Again the math is pretty simple. Assuming a 2k premium for diesel, Mahindra would have to do 50,000+ units just to break even.

ruking1

My mistake. It just sounded so British.

ateixeira

I think they blocked Mahindra for many reasons - safety among them. How would it fare in IIHS tests for instance?

A lot of people don't want tons of cheap trucks running around.

They could have sold 50k trucks in the first year or two.

I don't think such an old design would succeed here long-term anyway.

ruking1

There are always plethora's of reasons and reasonings. While I do not want to get political, the GM bail out had huge political and union components. Makes you wonder why they gave the bail out chore to the taxpayer and huge ownership share to the unions? The topic here was for a Mahindra diesel. I was not a fly on the wall during the process. I am just reacting to what I have read.

ateixeira

There should be no doubt that the Feds would do everything to protect the cash cow for American automakers: pickup trucks.

Mahindra may have stood a better chance if they didn't have a pickup model. They could have dumped them here even with the 25% chicken tax and put a dent on pickup sales.

gagrice

Yes it is understandable in South Africa. I have a doctor friend that got out with his life. He said his home/office had to have a big fence around it and armed guards 24/7.

Have you gone to any of the Olympics?

ateixeira

Looks like ruking1 is freelancing for the onion:

http://www.theonion.com/video_embed/?id=28675

gagrice

Now that is TOOO funny, :shades:

There are a lot of people with too much time on their hands.

ruking1

Harry Reid, Senate Majority Leader might say he has it on good authority that.... ateixeira might be the eco spike vendor? :P :lemon:

Too funny that an old James Bond (FILM) British SPY countermeasure would be installed on the "WRONG" side. :sick: Or was that the drivers side was installed on the wrong side?

ateixeira

I like the recylcer blender/spray. Reminds me of Waterworld.

ateixeira

Maybe this could eventually replace the Miata:

http://wot.motortrend.com/official-2013-volkswagen-beetle-tdi-manual-transmissio- n-convertible-rated-2841-mpg-242277.html

Anyone driven a new one? Is the back seat inhabitable?

stever

Wait til you see what happens when you pull the handbrake lever. Or push the clutch in.

Or pull the trigger on a diesel pump. :shades:

gagrice

I have not gotten into the back seat. But the price listed is pretty decent for a Convertible TDI. The Beetle coupe with turbo gas engine can go up to $29k. My neighbors traded in their VW Beetle TDI from the late 1990s. They ended up with a Ford Focus hatch. They had over 200k miles on the VW. They thought about another TDI but did not want to spend that much money. They said the dealer who sells Ford, VW and Hyundai gave them a good trade-in. The old Beetle still looked good. Always in the garage. They will miss the 45+ MPG.

ruking1

Indeed this would be CHEAP of one had a Porsche Carrera S vert (90 to 103k) in mind. As a VW, 29k MSRP might be getting a tad pricey.

gagrice

This is still my favorite VW Beetle concept car of all time. If they offered it with TDI I would buy one. What happens to all those concept vehicles?

ateixeira

Usually storage. Some times auctions for the better ones, but decades later.

I seem to remember a Baja Bug and a spec racer.

Beetle based dune buggys are still running around all over Brazil. My dad owns one and I got to drive it. No fuel gauge, no power steering, but boy is it ever fun. :shades:

gagrice

I have owned several VW Bug based buggies over the years. They are fun and would go places my Toyota Land Cruiser only wished it could go. Now they are all so high tech. Many spend $50k for a dune buggy. Subaru engines putting out 600-900+ HP. Custom built transmissions. Scary fast. My neighbors have given me rides up and down our street. Faster than all but the fastest sports cars. I just don't enjoy being at the dunes with 10,000 or more people racing around.

ruking1

The thing that really intriques me are the new high tech, long travel, adjustable, reservoir ed suspension components.

I do have to say for a more on road CUV, I am really liking the Touareg's suspension. The foot print seems to indicate SACH's as the sub vendor. Despite some vilification of their oem pieces (they have to make them to VW specs, i.e.. more compliant ride) they make very high quality components. One guy in our local GTG group got VERY technical and actually had a few apart for analysis. The build quality was better than almost any so called after market offering, including Bilstein and Koni to name a few.

ateixeira

The bug-based buggies basically don't weight anything. They're RWD with an open diff, but huge rear tires are enough when you're under one ton.

If you ever get the chance to tour Brazil, don't miss Cumbuco, near Fortaleza. There's a giant "funnel" where you can pay for a pro to take you on a wild ride where you basically drive on the wall of a giant sand funnel.

Something for your bucket list.

gagrice

Cumbuco looks like my kind of place. Not too many people and lots of warm sun and sand.

http://www.casa-cohiba.com/photos/cumbuco/brazil-cumbuco-sand-dunes-2.html#previ- ous-photo

ateixeira

It's like the sands of the Sahara blew right across the Atlantic.

Really, it's something else. You can drive on the sand for hours and hours.

ruking1

So how are tje ULSD prices and availability?

I fueled today by an "international" aeroport. Chevron of the current burn baby burn fame, $3.95 per gal.

ateixeira

Only the old regular sulfur diesel variety.

But...it costs HALF what gas costs there.

I imagine even ULSD would be cheap there.

ruking1

I take it you mean LSD, 500 ppm sulfur? If so, I burned it for app half the miles I have now till the mandatory switch to ULSD in Oct 2006 aka mandatory in July 2006. :sick:

Well we are following the obummer ever increasing fuel prices policy. Seems a logical place to get tax monies to piss away on projects like... Solyndra. :sick: :lemon:

ruking1

..."They're all rated at 40 miles per gallon or better."...

It is interesting what a LOW priority 40 mpg (gasser) fuel efficiency really is (non hybrid). Given 606 models listed on Edmunds.com 9 models are less than 1.5%

9 fuel-efficient cars gas only

stever

"Overall one in three car owners say they have interest in purchasing a hybrid vehicle, though 59 percent of consumers say they will likely choose a vehicle with a traditional combustion engine for their next purchase.

Roughly one in four consumers say they'll consider a hybrid gas or electric vehicle; 11 percent say they'll think about a diesel-powered automobile and nine percent say an all-electric vehicle remains an option.

Harris polled 2,634 adults between May 7 and May 16."

1 in 4 owners more interested in buying hybrid car (Detroit News)

In other news, Toyota Confirms Hydrogen Fuel-Cell Sedan Due Out in 2015 (Inside Line)

ruking1

Given the actual yearly sales (between 9.5 to 14.5 M it would be interesting to know the actual numbers. In other words does the 1in 3 car owners or 33% convert to actual sales. So statisitcally significant conversion would be an ideal of 3.125 M to 4.785 M hybrids.

Given the 3 to 5% of diesel owners, while 11% of those polled would consider diesel, it is not any better than 55%.

xwesx

11%! That's it for those that would consider a diesel auto? That seems crazy to me.

I'm still disappointed that Subaru hasn't announced plans to introduce its diesel here.

gagrice

The only info I can find on the Honda FCX hydrogen car is 3 were leased and more planned. It is still listed on their website for $600 per month on 3 year lease to selected CA individuals. I doubt they got the cost down enough from the $150k to make it feasible. I don't want a bomb in my trunk under 5000 psi.

Give me a straightforward diesel engine in a comfortable SUV and I will be happy driving off into the sunset.

lemmer

My father in law bought a new 2012 Passat TDi last night. He is coming for a visit this weekend. I can't wait to play around with it a little.

He got a good deal. Apparently the 2013 models are coming in, and you can buy a 2012 for $500 less than invoice.

ruking1

This might be off topic, but what colors did he get and did he get a DSG?

Actually the new TDI's are fairly "boring" that way. The biggest hobby is to break in the new components well (aka keep speeds under 65 mph, 500 to 1,000 miles) and the engine correctly.(once up to ops temp it is ok to rev to 75% of red line) Even after app 10 to 20 my's, proper engine break in generates a lot of controversy. :confuse:

ateixeira

I wish I knew more but it would not surprise me if Brazil was using VHSD (Very High Sulfur Diesel).

Obamaster basically asked Brazil to be a crutch for US fuel supply so let's see what comes from that.