What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

fintail

I think some private people can use it as a writeoff too. More of that trickle down tax code, I guess. There's a huge gap between the real world price and the lease residual, no doubt...which shows the huge margin on MSRP I guess. Oh well, something for another forum, but I did find it remarkable that a more expensive diesel would cost less than a cheaper gas.

fintail

Or you could use the cash to pay the eye-watering depreciation...whatever works best.

For that Prevost, you could buy a nice house in most of the world for the price of that!

ruking1

Indeed, one of the reasons why one has to LOVE America !

I would also guess that the margins are best on luxo cars, PU trucks and SUVs. I also think that one reason why the LUXO BMW, MB, etc USED car markets are so robust. As you say, some of the new car (i.e., MB luxe) price tags can truly buy a three bedroom house in some areas of the country.

I think the real nexus here are two fold: one being that diesels are still a (for lack of a better description)" niche" market. Another being yearly car sales would be far less, sans the IRS help: tax credits, deductions, etc. The percentage of decrease would probably be a swag of some other experts pay grade. Probably a third is the American economy is STILL linked, dare I say dependent to/on a healthy to robust US car market. My op/ed is: I am glad the US markets are finally getting US branded passenger car turbo diesels.

Most folks know that the so called "light truck" segments, (2 to 3 series) have had the HUGE turbo diesel options for decades. They are still a very healthy percentage % (50+ %) of the 5% of passenger car diesels. (PVF 258.8 M @ 5%= app 12.94 M diesels @ 50%=6.47 M units)

jg88

...is one in a true, mid-size suv. While the x5, toureg, a5/7 and ml have diesel choices, none have a low range true 4x4 set-up. I'm one of the 2-4% of suv drivers who actually need ground clearance and low range for some of the areas I frequent.

Had thought for a while the Jeep GC was going to get the ML diesel but perhaps the breakup cancelled that idea. A 4-runner with a diesel would be appealing too as perhaps a pathfinder. I'd find one of these rides getting 20 city and 30 highway fuel mileage a real win.

There are two other deisel considerations I would have to weigh upon:

1. Oil change cycles -- I do 5k changes and have heard diesels require 3k -- is that true?

2. Blue tec type fluids -- I understand that this makes the burdened cost of operation for fuel somewhere north of premium gas in total. Is that true as well? That might eat into the benefit of better fuel mileage.

Is it also true that the diesel does not require tune-ups? Am sure after many pages of this thread the answers may lie before this post so I aologize if this is old hat.

stever

Don't know about diesels, but gassers don't need "tune-ups" anymore.

People who go to the dealer and ask for a tune-up may as well leave a blank check behind. :P

ruking1

World wide markets have had products that dealt with issues like you describe a long time ago. Since you mentioned Toyota Forerunner, another might be the TLC turbo diesel (10.5 in ground clearance) . These are (now) pricey beyond pricey, if they were to hit the US markets. I am thinking what would be a winner for you would not be so for the oem.

VW Touareg was for a long time, a fully set up 4 wheel drive SUV. Touaregs in the past were used in the Dakar off road races and DARPA, etc.. Since there were so few used as you say, you use yours, they actually dropped the low range, on the transfer case . This saved the extra cost, complexity, etc. Probably the most important is minus -450 #'s, so it could be designed for better fuel mileage and nimbleness. Even in the current form they performed very well on both South American and North American roads for 16,000 miles.

1. I am not sure why you do 5,000 OCI's? It is false that 3k OCI's are required or even recommended for diesels. VW recommends a belt and suspenders, and highly conservative 10,000 miles OCI's for both diesels and gassers. The oil used for VW's VW 507.00 is actually specified to be able to go 30,000 miles. I actually have been running 25,000 to 30,000 miles OCI's on turbo diesels, and have so for 177,000 miles. I have been running 20,000 miles OCI's on TLC's for easily 820,000 miles.

2. This of course depends on your consumption rate. Either way you calculate it per mile driven .00133 cents or per gal ($4.00)it is variable, just as your fuel mileage might be.

3. Well I think it depends on what you mean by tune ups, so ...false. Most cars are designed to run 100,000 miles before a "major" tune up.

jg88

Hey, I spent some cash replacing the plugs and a few other items about 30k miles ago, doesn't that count as a tune-up? The labor was not cheap!

jg88

Thanks for the insights particularly for the blue tec fluid costs/gallon. Was at 100k that I did the plugs on the expy as mentioned above. So no plug changes on the diesel? Good!

The 5k OCI is probably just me. The expy I'll replace has been changed at 5k since I got it - have never added a drop of oil between changes. Getting 10+k OCI tells me these are synthetic oils...OK by me too.

ruking1

Correct, there are no spark plugs. There are a lot of neat little things, that over the longer term are pretty huge. I won't bore you with the details, unless you are really interested.

In the 30,000 miles OCI, the TDI engines uses app 1/4 to 1/2 qt of oil. (8 to 16 oz). Topping is almost an OCD procedure (obsessive compulsive disoder At that time, I just normally change the oil as it is normally between the max and add lines.

This "consumption" rate is also holding true for a 2nd TDI. However, it only has 40,000 miles. On the Touareg TDI, mpg range is between 30-36 mpg, but it only has 6,000 miles on it. It also has no "real". dipstick. ("dipstick" is ELECTRONIC) However it is still "topped".

At 10,000 and 30,000 to 60,000 miles, the TDI trends has been better fuel mileage, normally 1 mpg better @ 10,000 miles and another 1 to 2 mpg @ 30,000 to 60,000 miles. Full break in (max cylinder pressure aka 550 psi) takes a lot longer than a gasser ( full cylinder pressure @ 500 to 1,000 miles).

stever

I did my plugs at 124,000 miles and the durn gas mileage went down. Took two years before it got back to the previous average. Should have let them sit (recommended interval is 105k).

I skipped the timing belt at 105k since I don't have interference engine. The Golf TDI is an interference engine per Gates, and it needs a new belt at 105k. So I'm a bit ahead that way.

(at least until I lose power on the freeway and get rear-ended trying to get over to the shoulder. )

ruking1

In theory, correctly gapped and torqued OEM replacement spark plugs (all other things being equal) should yield better mpg. It almost sounds like in your case it would make sense to gap the (next ) new spark plugs to the gap it is/was when you posted the BEST mpg and regap it again, later say at 60/65k @ that same measurement. If I recall correctly 4 oem spark plugs for a 2004 Civic cost 40-50 a set !? Strictly from a non technical point of view the old oem provided set @ 120,000 miles recommended interval did NOT look like it needed to be changed.

I would agree that the NON interference engine would take a lot of the uncertainty out of timing belt "paranoia". Basically you get out of a catastrophic event to "inconvenience" or slightly unsafe (i.e., it is unsafe to have a T/B break down on the 405 freeway in LA)

When it comes to diesels in the VW case, the VAG.com program can be used with a lap top to fine tune a host of parameters (TMI). So one can set it up from the full range performance to extreme fuel efficiency.

stever

used with a lap top to fine tune a host of parameters

That's cool - all cars need that. Be nice to scrub off some speed for mpg or vice versa, or just fool around. You can always reboot the car to factory specs. Not that I've ever had to do that with any of my computer stuff around here.

I can just hear the cops now. "Sir, do you know you were overclocked 4x in a 2x zone?"

bpeebles

You said ==> "That's cool - all cars need that."

Are you serious?.... MANY cars have that ability to some degree. (Within the constraints of Federal Laws and capabilities of the onboard computer(s))

For the TDI, the "IQ" can be adjusted (Injection Quality) ... along with, idle-speed EGR, Keyfob, radio loudness control (as you speed up, it gets louder) and a myriad of other things.

With my Subaru.... I can adjust things without a computer using only the various buttons, knobs and other electrical inputs from the drivers-seat.

For example.... I did not like that the beeper kept going off anytime I removed my seatbelt, By plugging/unplugging the seatbelt into the hasp a specific number of times in succession, I was able to turn that durn beeper off. (Subaru has over 20 'secret codes' like this.)

With Dodge - one can 'pull the codes' from the onbaord computer by simply turning the key from off/on/off/on/off/on without starting engine... the onboard-diagnostics will execute and display the results on the digital display.

I could go on and on... but I think you get the idea.

stever

Yeah, but I want it all, and even better would be to have it built into the dash. And I want to be able to grab someone else's configuration settings to tinker with (a la Black Viper in the Windows world).

About the only thing I'm able to play with on the '99 minivan is turning off the horn beep on the fob lock button and the RDS display on the radio.

ruking1

Again not to toot the VW horn, you can actually do that with the VAG.com and laptop software program, as one is underway and in real time. I have been on many (3rd shotgun rides, as you can tell I am NOT the guru) at GTG's where parameters were checked real time and underway with the laptop spewing data, real time or for capture.

The program is complicated, and very procedural: but in that sense, those are just details.

stever

Very cool, you can even build your own interface.

Now I want to see an Audi cruising around with the left side 4" taller than the right.

KCRam

"opoc", or opposed-piston opposed-cylinder

EcoMotors is a firm backed in part by Bill Gates and a partner with Navistar. The opoc engine is their design that they feel will improve diesel engine efficiency and reduce manufacturing costs. Unlike a flat/boxer engine like those used by Porsche and Subaru - which are essentially 180° V-engines - the opoc has two pistons in each cylinder that face each other. This eliminates the cylinder head and valvetrain. The company received an infusion of cash Tuesday ($32.5M) to continue their work. They project a 50% reduction in parts, 20% reduction in cost to build, and fuel economy improvements from 15 to 50%, compared to current diesels.



EcoMotors 2011 press release

kcram - Pickups/Wagons/Vans+Minivans Host

ruking1

Judging by the "dumbed" down versions that we get in the USA, the real question will be how long before it this "disruptive" technology will hit the US market mainstream. It has taken 30+ years and already we have 5% diesels in our passenger vehicle fleet, with most of those being so called light trucks that are really HEAVY.

It would be hard to NOT welcome a 15% to 50 % mpg improvement on current models posting 30, 40, 50 mpg. Indeed when the 2003 Jetta TDI (one that posts 50 mpg, even as it was EPA rated 42C/49 H ), the very next year, they literally make it against the law to sell diesels.

To be fair (and unfairly use Mazda as a specific example) Mazda has been selling its fun to drive cars for literally decades, with less than even averagely good mpg. Now suddenly,... better mpg MAZDA cars are finally coming out under the "SkyActive" moniker. Why has that been UN Active for so long?

Given Navistar's less than stellar history, I would hope this can be a home run for them. Let me put it this way, I would not be an "early" adopter. Perhaps a 5th or 6 gen adopter if it really is a hit.

alltorque

Engines using this technology have been and, (largely), gone here in the U.K., Europe and maybe even the USA, although not on such a small scale. Developed in the 1950's the Napier "Deltic" engine was a brilliant bit of kit and used 3x banks of opposing pistons in a triangular formation. They were used in marine and railway locomotive applications for some years - and made an awesome noise.............as I can testify. Someone has been reading an engineering history book.

Either search for Deltic or have a look at Wiki :

Napier Deltic

THe history of opposed-piston engines, (search that term for more info), goes back to pre-WWII and the Jumo 205 engine was used in the German Blohm & Voss BV 138 aircraft and, yes, it was a diesel. Fascinating subject but hardly new or "revolutionary" (sorry).

bpeebles

I agree with you that the concept is not new.... but you may have forgotton that metallurgy, manufacturing processies and a myriad of other things HAVE improved over the years.

Some automotive concepts which are commonplace now ... but NOT new and had to wait for technology to become available before becoming commonplace:

*) Electronic Fuel-injection (many-many technologies had to come together)
*) ABS (Was all mechanical in the 1950's...and did not work well)
*) tubeless tires (used to always have a tube)
*) Aluminum engine blocks/heads (Early attempts warped and became junk)
*) Timing Belts (rubber technologies had to improve)
*) Sealed wheel bearings
*) Sunroofs that dont leak
*) Turbochargers (Alloys such as inconel and better understanding of airflow dynamics)

I recall when VW first announced the TDI engine.... TURBOCHARGER and DIRECT-INJECTION came together to suddenly make the previous VW diesel with 45 horsepower seem anemic.

gagrice

The Saga Ends: Mahindra Compact Diesel Pickup Canceled for U.S. Market

Though Mahindra & Mahindra has spent $100 million since 2006 to get its TR40 pickup ready for the U.S. market, it seems that investment won’t result in U.S. availability of its compact diesel pickup. The Indian automaker has halted work on the U.S.-spec pickup, the company says in a statement.

Mahindra cites tough U.S. regulations and changes in market conditions to explain why development on the truck is stopping. The news comes a month after the automaker wasn’t able to obtain the certification required to bring the TR40 to the U.S. market, Reuters reports.

http://wot.motortrend.com/the-saga-ends-mahindra-compact-diesel-pickup-canceled-- for-u-s-market-231259.html

ruking1

Now we can begin to put some numbers to how much it really costs to even try to ante up to be able to bring a diesel ( in these case) to market. 100 M in 6 years, or 16.7 M per year ) and not even a single product ???? !!! Anybody that does not understand the American system is ANTI diesel is playing ostrich with the truth.

bpeebles

This is sad news on many levels.

*) New automakers cannot "break into" the US market due to over regulation.
*) Our choices for Diesel pickups will apparently remain huge behemoths mainly intended for pulling trailers instead of MPG.
*) I have to question the progress of the Chevy Cruze and Mazda diesels which are slated for 2013 release in the US.

BTW: At my local KIA dealer, they had a diesel Soul on display in the showroom... however it was NOT intended for use on US roads. (They would not even give me a price for it) It was for "display only" and had to shipped back to Korea (or crushed) . I think they were kinda surprised that I recognized it as a diesel engine.

elias

is anyone surprised? of course not.
my policy is to believe *nothing* about any planned diesel for USA, unless it's info direct from Volkswagen-Audi-Group.

gagrice

Don't forget BMW and MB, they both deliver as planned. It is the Japanese and now India that are incapable building a diesel that passes the CARB/EPA gauntlet thrown in their path. Even Government Motors are having a time getting their own Cruze Eco-Diesel to market. It was going to be a 2012, then a 2013 now a 2014. Sounds like the same hassle Honda went through before throwing in the towel. Maybe the EPA will make an exception. I doubt it gets a 50 MPG EPA HWY rating as hoped for.

ruking1

In that sense, VW/Audi, et al. have long ago since paid their dues, so to speak. (Gagrice's Passat and my 03 Jetta) TDI's were probably at that time the "best of breed", albeit THE only TDI's. What does under reported and probably hidden at that time was VW A lost over a billion dollars, partially to majority of the reasons: selling diesels, aka paying dues. During the subsequent so called financial debacle, they of course MADE millions when the rest to all of the other oems lost- minus BILLIONS.

In both the regulatory and real world sense, as a consumer, it made all the sense in the world to buy a VW diesel, despite being $236. more than the VW gassers @ the time.

gagrice

My 2005 Passat Wagon TDI was only $200 more than the cheap gas version. Much less than the V6 model. I bought well below invoice in Oregon where diesel was much higher than RUG in Winter/Spring of 2005. Also the dealer had only ordered TDI in the wagons. They were not approved for CA at the time. So when I got the required 7500 miles on it selling for a nice profit was easy. In fact I have never had so many calls on a vehicle as that Passat TDI. I probably could have made more than the $3000 profit, if I had any idea how big the demand was in 2006. Once in a lifetime opportunity like so many stocks I coulda, shoulda bought.

ruking1

Given what happened to the Mahindra death (of the diesel product), it would have been interesting to know what VW (@ those times) had to go through on the money side of the regulations IF we are even getting the real story of $ 16.7 M per year spent. I am sure the pressures were probably enormous. We will probably never get the real story for either or all oems that want to bring diesels to these shores and markets.

fintail

Talked to a MB dealer today, who said as far as they know, the local dealership has sold only one S diesel - to a customer who doesn't really like it. Diesel might be a tough sell to those with a 90K+ budget who can afford gas at any price.

ruking1

Even on this board, I am hearing little to no real world news about the 2012 MB ML350 BlueTec. I understand/have read that MB wants to sell 36,000 of these units, with an unknown portion of these being,... BlueTec. So if MB is targeting say 25% (SWAG ONLY), then we are talking 9,000 BlueTec units. VW will be happy as clams to sell app 8,000 2012 Touareg units. If they sell 21.6% % TDI's of total unit sales, that will be app 70,071 units. Touareg TDI units unknown.

2011 VW total Touareg sales were listed @ 7,535 units.

Jan 2012

fintail

I know someone who has a 2011 ML Bluetec they got on a year end sweetheart lease, but I know nothing of the new model either. However, the market for those will appreciate the economy with no added upfront or fuel cost - as those who buy (or lease) a car that will average under 60K will be different from those spending ~100K. I suspect the recent gas price softness isn't helping diesel sales either. I see plenty of diesel MLs and GLs, a few Es here and there, haven't seen a diesel S on the road yet.

stever

The regular/diesel differential around here is about .50 cents or more right now. But rumor is that gas prices are going back up soon.

fintail

The MBs all take premium though, so around here anyway, there's no difference, or often diesel is even cheaper.

Prices are going up again guaranteed. We have it good right now.

stever

One station around here sells "non-ethanol" premium and it's (currently) still cheaper than the diesel.

Makes no sense to me either.

New York State isn't helping the supply situation though. Those guys are burning tons of it. (bizjournals.com)

Now multiply that by ~50.

gagrice

85% of 50,000 school buses still on diesel. I doubt we have 10% left. Though we have very few school buses. Most people will not send their kids on the school bus at $500 per year per student. So much for NY trying to be like CA. They have a loooong ways to go. Our ferry service went away when they built the bridge to Coronado in the late 1960s. Very little diesel use. Cheapest RUG, $3.47, cheapest diesel $3.55

gagrice

I think you are right about the rich buying Mercedes Diesels. We have several ML/GLs in my neighborhood. They are all the 550s. Gas is not an object unless you are a cheapskate like me that wants luxury and economy. I have not seen a 2012 ML bluetec on the road. A few of the previous version. Still my first choice.

ruking1

At a local "discount" chain, RUG $3.63, PUG $3.85, D2 $3.79 per gal.

stever

Wow, I bet this is the first time since I moved to the UP that my gas is cheaper than your regular. Not a sign of a good trend. :sick:

fintail

MLs and GLs aren't really in the same realm as an S-class. One can lease an ML for 499 or so. Many people can afford that. The S, not so much.

I have seen several ML and GL diesels here, but nothing higher. Diesel is the only way to go for those things IMO - cheaper running cost, same purchase price, gobs of torque...no brainer.

ruking1

I really had not much intention to get a V6 3.0 L TDI, much less do the leg work across 4 to 6 crossover SUV's. I was happier than a clam with 2 passenger car TDI's. However we do hit N/S Tahoe during the winter, and probably a few other reasons. At times during the winter, CA Trans does set up chain controls. They will of course let a 4 WD SUV/crossover pass and literally with almost any set of tires. They do always SAY one should have chains, regardless. :P So as an upper base line, IF CHAINED snow plows are having difficulties, it makes NO sense to be in those conditions anyway.

You can have studded snow tires (old school) to so called "performance" winter tires on a less than "4 WD" SUV's and they will still make you chain (when required). As one can imagine, this cuts down the flexibility a little to a lot. The additional difficulties are most of the trip (upwards of 75%) are done on high speed roads. In addition, chains are really not recommended on newer vehicles and one slip/bad installation on so called cable chains can set you back a bundle by way of repair to bodywork.

Having just recently completed a N/S 1,200 trip (S/B highway 101 and N/B highway 5) it was indeed very very nice. This thing was made to cruise the open road.

lemmer

It was a relatively plain model with a 6-speed manual. It shifted decently, but the clutch was pretty awful. The engine was really satisfying in the power band, but the power band is only from about 2000-4000 rpms. I figured a diesel like that would have some torque off idle, but I had to rev it more than I am used to just to get it to move. In normal driving, the ride and handling felt great.

The interior looked and felt high quality. Everything in it is so nicely designed. I love that. I did find a big machine screw on the floor mat after my test drive - looked like it fell out from under the dash. That kind of worried me a little.

Overall, I really liked the car, but the engine and the transmission don't seem to work well with each other. Probably a DSG or an automatic would make the car a let more pleasant to live with.

ateixeira

Just got back from a vacay in Brazil...and I can't understand why more diesels aren't sold there. Diesel costs far less than gas, of course it's not the low sulfur variety, at least not yet.

You guys will find this interesting - a diesel truck can cost a good 30% more than a gas truck, but resale is so strong and the fuel cost advantage is so big that most people splurge anyway.

My dad has a Blazer diesel with a manual trans. Wild combination that would probably struggle to sell here to the manicured housewives that buy SUVs.

Very interesting. Most trucks are diesels, but I don't recall seeing any diesel cars. Go figure.

ruking1

Folks definitely perceive and adjust to clutches differently. The 03 TDI's clutch is considered by some to many to be a dog (not in a good sense). It is a dual mass, little to no safety factor, etc., etc. However 400,000 miles is a reasonable wear expectation. Go figure ! ? I am at 178,000 miles aka all is quiet on the western front. 20-30k to go for the second TB/WP change.

As for the engine (1.9 L to 2.0 L) 2k to 4k rpm, unless highly modified was designed to yield both max torque (starting @ 1750 TO- 2,500) and HP (app 4k) (memory serving correctly) Redline is @ 5,100 rpm. Redline is computer controlled @ 4,600 or so for a DSG. If you peg that thing @ 3,000 rpm in 6th gear, you will be @ app 100 mph.

So if a preference is for a higher revving gasser engine , a diesel is best bypassed.

lemmer

I do like some revs, but I am ready for that. What I wasn't ready for was it being completely dead off idle. I had a '84 Jetta Diesel with 52 hp, that you could let out the clutch at idle and it would just go. I guess the great god of turbos gives and takes away.

In any case, the short drive has me wanting another German car, reliability be damned.

ruking1

For better or worse, the 1984 Jetta diesel with 52 hp did/does not have anything near the features and "refinement" the so called more modern day 2012/2013 2.0 L TDI has today. To expect it to maintain some of those things you might remember it for might be unrealistic. We may wax nostalgic for the "good ole days", but really my op/ed is "these" ARE the good ole days. If given a choice between the 1970 VW Beetle and or 1978 Rabbit and the 2003 Jetta TDI, for me the choice would be an absolute no brainer, and with app 40,000 miles has been absolutely stellar. More modern examples are the 2009 Jetta TDI W/DSG was delivered in flawless condition. It of course has had its' VW directed TSB's.

Indeed, if you do NOT get a/the lemon and get a middle most or even well made car; reliability as well as durability are both excellent, despite the in some cases the well deserved reputation.

gagrice

Very interesting. Most trucks are diesels, but I don't recall seeing any diesel cars. Go figure.

I just figure people that drive trucks are smarter than those that drive cars. :shades:

fintail

The lifted loud exhaust diesel truck drivers out there want to disagree with you :shades:

ruking1

The lifted loud exhaust gasser truck drivers are a MUCH bigger population.

gagrice

So there are always exceptions to the rule.

I was under the impression that all cars in Brazil had to be FFV up to 100% ethanol?

ruking1

Sometimes it is pretty funny to watch those LIFTED trucks (gasser or diesel) try to keep up with a CUV TDI and/or passenger car TDI's. I almost think watching their fuel tank indicator is almost like watching a tachometer. :P