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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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Comments

  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    edited October 2012
    ...15.42 gallons for 340.1 miles = 22.06 mpg. Price for diesel, $4.09 (Regular 3.79, Mid 3.99, Premium 4.19)

    That tank was approximately 50% highway miles and 50% city miles. But DON"T make a math mistake and think that should equal halfway between the city and highway mpg ratings. That would be the case if half the gallons used were city and half the gallons used were highway. But if half the miles driven are city, the percentage of gallons that are used for those miles is more like 65-70%. It appears that we are getting about 17 mpg in moderate to heavy city, 30 mpg on the open highway.

    Our MDX would be lucky to average 17 mpg under similar driving conditions. (13/14 city, 22 highway). Requiring 20 gallons of 10 cent higher premium over the same distance. Savings $20.73. Multiply by 40-50 tanks per year, $800-$1,000 annual.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    Since you have another diesel (BMW 335D?) , I think you already know that is the good/bad news and actually in a few permutations. Upshot is a turbo diesel improvement of 1 to 3 mpg structurally. Bad news: it does take a while (compared to gassers).

    The gassers (engines) break in usually by 500 to 1,000 miles to achieve full compression, capable of maximum fuel mileage. Turbo diesels can take anywhere from 10,000 miles (first real sign of improvement) to more like 30,000 to 60,000 miles.

    Gassers/turbo diesels have their own operating parameters.

    One key is to operate within those (separate) parameters ala " right foot" management.

    It is @ 11.5k with the first interval (10,000 miles OCI- oil change interval and Ad Blue recharge code check and tire rotation) under its belt. I run it slighty to moderately aggressively( NTE 4,000 /5,100 red line75 to 78%, rpm wise) and really did not manage at all the mpg. However during early aggressive diesel engine break in it manage to post tank fulls of between 30 to 36 mpg. For "snap shot purposes I have posted the tank full results. Press on and all the best !
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    X5d is our only diesel - never owned a 335d - and not sure what you mean by "good / bad" news. So far, nothing but good news with the X5d and at this point I'd never consider a gas SUV again in the future.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Is the X5 as quick? Just curious.

    I'm sure performance is plenty more than adequate.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    As quick as what?

    From 0-40 it's quicker than our 2005 MDX and the ML350 and Q7TDI. It's about the same as the 2012 MDX. It's not as quick as the X5 3.5i.

    From 40-80+, especially 60-80, it feels at least as quick as the X5 3.5i and quicker than MDX, Mercedes, Audi by a healthy margin. This from my test drives, not sure if there is empirical comparison tests to validate.

    If you want drag racing quick SUV, the X5 5.0i or M or Cayenne S / Turbo are my recommended choices. But at 0-60 in 6.9 to 7.2 seconds (depending upon source), the X5d is plenty quick for our SUV needs, and the responsiveness on the highway exceeded my expectations.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The MDX you were comparing it to, answered already at this point.

    Agreed that is plenty quick. I'm afraid to see these handed down to teenagers. Tall + heavy + fast + feeling of invulnerability = recipe for disaster.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    edited October 2012
    I'm afraid to see these handed down to teenagers. Tall + heavy + fast + feeling of invulnerability = recipe for disaster.

    I assume that's a blanket statement for any SUV. The good thing about the X5d - which I didn't fully appreciate until picking it up at the Performance Delivery Center and taking BMW's X5d around their skidpad and mini-Formula 1 track - is how well the vehicle handles and performs with respect to emergency maneuvers. Far better than our MDX. The brakes are much better. The handling is much better, with a fraction of the body roll of the Acura. I'd much rather have my (responsible) teenage daughter behind the wheel of an X5 than an MDX in a situation of having to swerve around the crazy kid that pulled in front of her in a Fiat 500. And if she couldn't swerve around in time, too bad for him.

    Speaking of which, BMW runs 1 and 2 day "Teen Driving Schools" at Spartanburg for about half the cost of their adult driving schools. As I understand it, it's their internal corporate commitment to making teens safer and better drivers that was initiated 10 years ago and has had 2,500+/- teens go through it. We are going to enroll my daughter for next spring.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Not just any SUV, any fast SUV. That thing is quick, so they can get in trouble in a hurry.

    Great idea to take her to their driving schools. My daughter is a couple of years away, but let me know how you like that.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,439
    X5d is plenty quick for our SUV needs, and the responsiveness on the highway exceeded my expectations.

    That would be my impression from my test drive. I drove there in the Sequoia. When I left the BMW dealership the Toyota felt like a wallowing 1952 Buick in comparison. The 2007 ML350 CDI that I drove was somewhere in between. I need to take a longer drive in the new ML350 Bluetec before making any decision. Also the Touareg TDI. I just saw a neighbor down the street has a new Touareg TDI. I will have to stop in and find out how he likes it in a few weeks. I have 2 more years on my 7 year Toyota Platinum warranty. So will get serious in about a year. I will probably advertise it at top dollar soon to see if there is any interest in a low mileage Sequoia.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    A lot of vehicles you compare your Sequoia to are a lot smaller, FWIW.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    So will get serious in about a year.

    You should have some pretty good additional choices by then. The X5 is in a redesign now, and it sounds like their may be 2 diesel choices with the new model. The X3 may even see a diesel variant (they currently make an X3 2.0d and 3.0d in Spartanburg for 100% export). I like the Cayenne diesel, but it would be tough to justify the price differential and no free maintenance over the X5d. VW, Audi and others are probably going to continue to tweak and improve their offerings.

    Don't be too hard on your Sequoia. Back before our 2005 MDX, we had an Isuzu Trooper. Five speed manual, no less. My wife put 90k miles on it through the streets of DC. It made your Sequoia look like a Cayenne Turbo by comparison. My wife kept driving it after the engine warning light came on and blew up the engine, so we ditched it for scrap metal. I'm pretty sure that wasn't an accident on her part.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,439
    Don't be too hard on your Sequoia.

    It is the Limited 4X4 with just about every option. It rides very nice. Quiet and not tiring on long trips. It has lots of room for stuff. Set up as a 6 passenger with 2nd row bucket seats. Great traveling with a second couple. Lousy Mileage and lousy NAV would be my major gripes. If I ever get a smartphone, it will make the NAV obsolete. Most NAV units are out of date before you buy the vehicle. Unless they are tied directly to the Internet.

    Truth is, I could buy more gas than I will use in a lifetime with the difference I would pay getting a new diesel SUV.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Exactly....

    X5 diesel starts at $56,700.

    You do save $1050 per year on fuel per fueleconomy.gov, but that's assuming you drive 15k miles per year.

    With low miles you probably only save half that or less. That's less than a 1% return.

    You'd be better off investing the money.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,439
    Sounds like a decent little car. Same old crap of saving US sales for the last.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    You might be better off investing the money if you are comparing buying a new X5d to keeping an existing vehicle for another few years. But when it does come time to replace an SUV, I see virtually no reason to go with a gas model unless you are a really frustrated drag racer and need an X5M or Cayenne Turbo to get your fix.

    The X5d vs. X5 3.5i is an economic no brainer, at least as of this writing. With a $4,500 eco credit, the D is $1,500+ less expensive up front. Will save a substantial amount at the pump, and real world trade in values here are higher for the D. I think you can come to the same conclusion for the VW, Audi, and ML, although for them, they do not have an "eco-credit" and you will pay more up front for the diesel over the gas. Still, after a 2-3 year payback, you are ahead.

    The diesel vs. gas is a little tougher to justify on some of the cars I've looked at. The former 335d gets a little better fuel economy than the new 328i, but not nearly the % savings compared to the X5. And the diesel option in a sports sedan, without availability of a manual transmission, requires some other compromises. But for a 5,000+ pound SUV, the diesel is a perfect match IMO.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,439
    But for a 5,000+ pound SUV, the diesel is a perfect match IMO.

    No question in my thinking. I just need to take more trips to justify a new SUV at this time. Hard to get motivated to travel when you live in paradise. Less than 30,000 miles on the Sequoia after 5 years. Sits in the garage except for trips and occasional driving to keep the battery charged.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Funny to read cabin rearward...

    Weight loss is the big news here, and sounds like the interior is still nice.

    The handling comments are disappointing though. At least they're not sending us the minivan suspension like they did in the base Jetta.

    Took forever for us to get the Golf V, too. I remember soon after we got it seeing Golf VI spy shots. Ridiculous.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Bingo, when it's time to trade in anyway.

    The X5 diesel costs $9200 more than the base X5, though I'm sure it includes a lot more standard equipment. I think a consumer shopping for range/economy may be looking at that vs. the diesel.

    Still, sounds like the credit cuts that difference in half, maybe even to zero once you equip them the same. Then the $1050 you save every 15k miles is money in the bank.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    At 6k miles per year your fuel costs are pretty insignificant, then.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,439
    My insurance is as much as my yearly gas bill. Last year I spent $1080 for gas. Though if gas keeps going up it may be a significant part. The best I could hope for is not near enough to justify buying a new vehicle. When you consider I can buy another rental home for the same amount as a new luxo diesel SUV in many parts of the country. The only reason I can really come up with is, I just want a diesel SUV.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    the corner store station !!) :blush:

    Went to fill (Took 17.5 gals) this morning after doing two (major metropolitan) zones ( for 528 miles) of commute traffic . Figuratively one way and literally the other way, rolling parking lots.

    ULSD $4.41.

    Fuel demand lower across the boards !! ;)

    These are arcane comments, but the 8 speed Aisin AUTOMATIC transmission is on my good side. Unfortunately, 6 speed manual is not offered in the US market or a fair and honest comparison.

    In those marginal situations where i would either have to brake, downshift or lose energy sooner and/or all of the above, (for 4,5,6, speed A/T, 5/6 speed M/T, 6 speed DSG) the 8 speed automatic seems to help in slowing the vehicle down without braking or manually downshifting (operative signal no brakes, aka no brake lights) . A side benefit seems that (in bumper to bumper rolling parking lot traffic) vehicles at my six seemed to follow further back as it was harder for them to judge if I was slowing or speeding up, etc.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Valley of HellPosts: 2,178
    So will get serious in about a year.

    A lot will change in that year when you are ready to buy/lease. VW will have the Diesel Tiguan, BMW's Diesel X3 and 3 series and MB GLK 230. Should be interesting to see what else is be out there.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    I really do not know how many folks share this view, or whether or not it is a significant factor: but it is always a red flag being a first generation adopter. In buying the 2003 Jetta TDI, there was relatively a lot of information about the 2002 TDI experiences.

    So for example if a Tiguan uses a 2.0 L or 3.0 L TDI, they have been around for a while (time and mileage, history etc) and most of what folks think about diesels has at least a footnote to the 1.9/2.0 L TDI, or a little more arcane the 3.0 L TDI.

    Even if the European experiences are spectacular, I tend to discount them as I/we are only concerned about the US market iteration.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I just want a diesel SUV

    Best possible reason.

    Life is short!
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    With the current $4,500 eco credit, the apples to apples comparison is $1,500 less for the diesel than gas on the X5. The base X5 cannot be optioned up to include most of what the other X5 models - diesel and gas - have as standard equipment. If somebody really wants a stripper, the X5 base is probably the way to go, but according to my dealer, they get fewer than 5% of their X5's in the base trim and when they do, they take much longer to sell. They claim they have an easier time selling a 535i with a manual transmission.

    If you really want to save bucks, don't care about fuel economy, and get a very good SUV, the 2012 MDX is being heavily discounted to at least $10-15k less than the X5. The base version of that vehicle still has items the X5 base does not offer or charges extra for.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    I think that if I were in the market for an (gasser) suv, the MDX would definitely be on the short list. It actually offers (with or without the MINUS - 10-15k) great bang for the buck. According to www.fuel economy 18 mpg (one posting) (and to your experiences) would post 5556 gals vs VWT 30 mpg ( my consumption in BAD conditions) 3333 gals, for 67% (2223 [email protected] $4.81 PUG=$10,693) more.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    I think for the mileage that you do in fact post, you are better off keeping the T S. Paid for (that old Beach Boys song: "I got the pink slip, Daddy ) and ZERO payments are hard to beat !
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Good point, the dealers probably don't stock any base model/no options. You'd have to special order and wait months.

    MDX is probably feeling pressure from the new JX35.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    This is old news (2012 MY but the cheapest BMW X5 35 D in US inventory is 53k (52,990) out of 464 D units.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I guess eco credit sounds better than "whoops we missed our CAFE targets hurry up and sell more diesels!" :D
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    Yes like SkyActive D !? I can not find any real explanation of what that means in real English. Now, I get the ethereal slant/ version. You know, Tesla WW power grids with linked stations, set off by Egyptian pyramids, free to cheap to endlless power and SKY hooks. We used to use a lot of sky hooks in the service.

    Yes, I do know that D = turbo diesel.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    SkyActiv, leave off the "e".

    Probably so they can trade mark it.

    You know, like Flo Rida and Xhibit, dawg. :D
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    Insert the metric: for 100,000 miles.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    This is old news (2012 MY but the cheapest BMW X5 35 D in US inventory is 53k (52,990) out of 464 D units.

    Where did you find that data? I didn't see it on BMW USA website.

    BTW, no 2013 X5d. At least not yet. The X5 is going through redesign and I believe that in addition to body/interior changes, they will be revising the diesel engine option(s). The X5 3.5i and 5.0i are available as MY 2013, and you can still order a to be built X5d as a MY 2012 model through the end of this month.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    OPEC probably threatened them. Too much revenue loss. ;)

    You just know half the X5s made end up in OPEC countries.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    Yes I think BMW might want to list MSRP rather than the prices real dealers sell them for.

    Indeed I am a tad confused, 3,069 units, 2013 BMW X5 are listed for 2013. 8 diesels (x5 35 D are in inventory

    Yes I have never ever bothered to ask oems when the order cut off dates are.

    It is getting to the end of the 2012 season. The remaining inventory for VW Touareg TDI's are 433.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Sorry to repeat, but where did you find that data? Please provide a source or link. Thanks.
  • Steve EliasSteve Elias Posts: 2,187
    habitat, congrats on selecting the x5d instead of the admittedly-cool tesla or fisker or whatever non-GM electric cars you were looking at!
    Also I appreciate the point about weighted averages as applies to city vs highway vs total mpg.
    (And independent of arithmetic, I hope the the beginner-driver in your household has told you recently that you are world's #1 dad!)
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    MPG for an UP grade leg has been 28 mpg lots of stop and go traffic. ( 3 adults and airplane lugguage for all, San Jose, CA to South Tahoe, Highway 50).

    It will be interesting to note what the down grade mpg will be. Pen and ink should capture the real world mpg.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Elias, thanks, but you may have given me premature credit where it isn't due. The X5d replaced my wife's old MDX, but I'm still considering the Tesla or a fun car to replace/augment my aging TL. I'm going to test drive the Tesla this week and give them the answer on whether to refund my deposit or build me a car. Odds are I'll be $5,000 richer by Friday, but you never know. And my two teenage daughters would certainly contend that I'm a very long way from the world's #1 dad, but I try to make sure that they know they are 100% of what matters most. That's easy math.

    Cheers.
  • Steve EliasSteve Elias Posts: 2,187
    You are most welcome, Hab.
    Please pass along any/all comments about the x5d!...
    fwiw, the tesla is growing on me - I saw it on Byron Allen's "cars.tv" over the weekend. Best wishes with your next/maybe-Tesla vehicle choice.
    I sure agree with your 100% math, but recommend you check your worlds-#1-dad coffee cup to verify where in the top-10-dad-list you are.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    "MPG for an UP grade leg has been 28 mpg lots of stop and go traffic. ( 3 adults and airplane lugguage for all, San Jose, CA to South Tahoe, Highway 50).

    It will be interesting to note what the down grade mpg will be. Pen and ink should capture the real world mpg."

    To close out this trip, I was not able to get separate up and down leg mpg , real world pen and ink mpg figures. However , this short tank full (16 gal/26.4 gal capacity) went 489 miles for a pen and ink real world filling (filled in an agricultural town), interesting for an EPA of 19/28 mpg. After this, we hit the outlets, then onto lunch in one of the greatest end destination cities and hit a consulate to pick up a visa for an upcoming business trip. I was glad the SF Giants were playing an AWAY game. Traffic would probably be worse that it already was.

    The roads, traffic and weather were absolutely stellar. Not a sign of snow anywhere (7500 to 9,500 ft)

    Applicable side bar: The MDX driver that went on this trip with me was almost incredulous about both the range and mpg.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    edited October 2012
    Got a "make me an offer" proposal from a BMW dealer that I referred a friend to several months ago. In July, they sold him a brand new 535i 6-speed manual with a MSRP of just under $60k for $45,500. They still have two 2011 leftover 335d's. MSRP on each is just under $53,000.

    I had called him about a pre-owned 911 they had at their sister dealership. I really wasn't thinking of replacing my Acura TL. It only has 63k miles and is equipped with my much preferred manual transmission. But......there is probably a price that would tempt me. A quick check on the web seems to show $35-36k would be a good price for a USED 2011 335d with medium miles - 20,000-25,000. The lower mileage ones push $39-42k.

    I probably don't want to make an offer that would either completely offend the manager (I still want his help on a Porsche), or put me in a position of feeling guilty if he takes it and I dont really want the car. My fiend already owes me a big dinner for his $14k under MSPR deal on the 535i. Anyone else want to buy me desert in exchange for a $37.5k brand new 335d?

    P.S. Don't ask me for name of dealer. You can probably figure out, but I'm keeping that confidential until I decide what to do. :)
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    WOW. I am not sure as to how this compares to anything, but with $53k msrp and 35/36k that is a 1 year decrease of - 32%.! On the lower mileage one you cite, MINUS 26% to 21%.

    It would seem a good way to buy a BMW is @ MINUS -1 year to - 5 years (actually that is also true for most cars) if one wants to come within budget parameters, which most to all do.

    I have not sold any of my TDI's, so I do not know the real world figures. However the last vehicle (gasser 1987 TLC) I sold was a loss of app MINUS -38% over 14 years or MINUS 2.7% per year depreciation.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    That first year depreciation is always a painful hit, and substantiates the old rule of thumb that it costs you 15-20% just to drive a car off the lot. With 2011 335d's BMW had been offering $2,500 to $4,500 eco-credits (rebates) throughout their production run, and it's pretty easy to get a 5% dealer discount on the MSRP, so I figure the average buyer of a $53k MSRP only paid $46-48k to start.

    Your 1987 -2001 experience proves that buying a low cost car in an inflationary environment results in the lowest annual depreciation hit. I had a 1984 Toyota Supra that I paid $16k for brand new, drover for 3.5 years and 50k miles, didn't yet replace the tires, and sold in 1988 for $12,600. About $80 per month depreciation. But during that time, the price of a new Supra went from $16k to $22k (+38%) and by 8 years later (1996), Toyota was trying to sell the Supra Turbo for $50k.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    There was a year (20010 IIRC?) where used Subarus went up in value. New models come in at higher prices so more people look to used.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    Gagrice sold his Passat and was pretty happy with the low depreciation he experienced.

    During the first 1 to 3 years of the 03 TDI ownership , it would have been a no brainer to sell it for literally what I paid for it (sans taxes) and with anywhere from 25,000 to 50,000 miles. I am guessing that 20/20 hindsight indicates selling it would have been the cleaner deal if I didn't really: want/need transportation 2.set out to keep it for a long time and period of miles.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,439
    I did not even lose any taxes. Only one year Alaska License fee of $30. I got to drive it 13 months and 8000 miles. Which made it legal to own in CA. I put it on Craigslist and had more response than you can imagine. That was 2006. The first to come up with the cash was an older couple from Prescott AZ. They tried finding a wagon TDI for over a year in AZ with no luck. Last email I got from them was a couple years ago. They had made many trips back East to visit family and loved the car. I missed it as soon as I sold it. Here are the 3 diesels I have owned. Still have the tractor and it runs great. The Mercedes RV took almost a year to sell at the price I wanted.

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