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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,443
    We know that an automaker would have to be crazy to use CA designer gas for the test. That would be at least a 10% reduction in mileage.

    On diesel I would assume a Cetane enhancer would give better results. Not sure that is true. I remember getting the best mileage on my MB Cruiser diesel in TX. I thought it was less mountains.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Might not be permitted. I'd go look for the rules but it's a fool's chase - even blind hogs can't find those acorns.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited November 2012
    Another reason why I like diesel. MPG across many (5) variables seems to be seamless. I have run CA (140 ppm) and 49 state (500 ppm)diesel (so called LSD) and literally can tell no differences in mpg. I can also tell no differences due to PRICE (allegedly better or worse due to PRICE). Lastly, I can tell no difference due/not to cetane enhancers. I can also tell no differences due to (Carol Kings song: winter, spring, summer or fall...) so called seasonal formulations.

    Since the change to ULSD, I can also tell no difference in mpg. Let me be the first to say this is anecdotal and NON scientific. So if someone made a case for cluelessness, I might find it hard to refute: aka 50 mpg with/without cetane enhancers: with without CA 49 state LSD: ULSD with/without cetane enhancers and on ULSD or not. is STILL 50 mpg. (Carol King's song x 2 for ULSD).

    Can I say the same about RUG/PUG? Absolutely not !!
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    So Hyundai is compensating buyers for whatever it did to cause the overstatement of EPA MGP.

    Several years ago, Honda/Acura got called out for overstating their horsepower ratings. Some by as much as 15+ horsepower. Don't think they ever offered any compensation to buyers, and I never had any horses show up on my doorstep courtesy of Acura.

    I had always wondered if Japanese cars used Shetland ponies and Porsche/BMW/Audi used Clydesdales as their respective measuring sticks. Apparently, they just couldn't read the dynamometer correctly.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited November 2012
    are a better kept secret that Federal/State secrets ! Sure there are laws governing the "legal minimums. The last time I reviewed cetane information, I remember 40 cetane being the "legal minimum". Last time I reviewed the oem owners manual most were designed with a 50 cetane (minimum) specification. Street Cred in the western states are Chevron is one of the higher ones @ 49/51 cetane. Shell @ 46. CP @ 47-53.

    For RUG and PUG Octane ratings are usually stated prominently (CA 87/93). I am sure there are also real world penalities for (UNDER) misrepresentation, i.e.., 85 octane when paying for 87 octane.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    They actually were stating power with no accessories attached. Not just them, either.

    I remember Mazda offered $500 to '99 Miata owners or they would even buy the cars back.

    My theory was, if you test drove it and liked it, then bought it, take the $500 and run. It's not like the car was any slower the day after you found out.

    I don't think many people took them up on the offer to sell the cars back, FWIW. Plus it was only a matter of 5hp or so.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    edited November 2012
    Honda and Toyota lowered HP ratings in '05 when the SAE tightened its horsepower rules, but I don't see a suit off hand. (Wiki)

    Before that, Hyundai settles overstated horsepower lawsuit (Autoblog)

    Mazda did something similar with a Miata model. (Juice beat me to it).
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,443
    The best mileage I have gotten on my Sequoia was with 86 octane sold in NM and CO. Gimme that 85 octane and maybe I can hit 20 MPG.

    I'm with you though the variation in mileage with Gasoline seems far more radical than with Diesel.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    edited November 2012
    The guys over in the CRD Diesel Real World MPG discussion like to talk about everything but MPG, but it looks like highway for most of them ranged from 20 to 31.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 26,458
    was it the miata? I thought they did something like that with the RX8? Was it both?

    '10 Equinox LS; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 49-car history and counting!

  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,443
    I think Toyota used Premium high octane to get higher HP numbers. And got slapped for it. I don't think there was any lawsuit.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 26,458
    The way I understand it is that the EPA publishes strict guidelines on how vehicles are tested. The manufacturers do the testing.

    I wonder just how strict. I mean, are they all tested at the same elevation, same ambient temps, same humidity, etc? Is there one facility where all manufacturers go to do this ... all around the same time of year ... all with the same driver? I'd have to imagine they allow SOME margin of error, no?

    '10 Equinox LS; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 49-car history and counting!

  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,443
    The EPA has become purely a political arm of the administration in office. They make laws and expect the public to enforce them. So when they get lots of complaints they will act on them, MAYBE. The consumers are stuck with the cost of enforcement, such as Smog tests every year or so. Currently the EPA feels they have to pass more laws to keep their jobs. Like this video shows modern diesel vehicles are extremely clean. When do the laws of diminishing returns come into play.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCbfGBPnGiI
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Miata for sure, could have been both, though.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    edited November 2012
    http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/06/future-us-bmw-diesel-plans-leaked/

    I'll take a 3er wagon with the diesel in a manual. I'm just afraid to ask the price....
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,443
    Look at the options available. I have seen one Countryman and thought it about right as a runabout. I would love one with a diesel.

    Customers can choose from six engine variants for the MINI Countryman. The three petrol and three diesel units produce outputs stretching from 66 kW/90 hp to 135 kW/184 hp. Beyond these, there is also the ultra-sporty MINI John Cooper Works Countryman, powered by a turbocharged 160 kW/218 hp engine. The ALL4 all-wheel-drive system fitted as standard on this top-class performance variant is also available as an option for the MINI Cooper S Countryman, MINI Cooper SD Countryman and MINI Cooper D Countryman. All models, with the exception of the MINI One D Countryman, can be ordered with a six-speed automatic gearbox as an alternative to the standard six-speed manual. The impressive efficiency of the engines and gearboxes along with extensive MINIMALISM technology ensure all the MINI Countryman variants achieve an exemplary balance between driving fun and fuel economy. Added to which, from autumn 2012 manual versions of the MINI One Countryman and MINI Cooper Countryman will meet the stipulations of the EU6 exhaust emissions standard due to come into force in 2014.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    It does sound like the most suitable MINI model to get a diesel, but I bet it'll be spendy.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 26,458
    mmmm... yes. A 320d wagon... but I'll take the 8-speed auto.... and no x-drive, dammit!

    '10 Equinox LS; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 49-car history and counting!

  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    ...Porsche Cayenne diesel 25.6 gallons at 32.4 mpg from Rockville, Maryland to Daytona, Florida. With almost a gallon left. Average speed 70 mph. That's about 3.4 mpg over EPA 29 and 2.4 mpg more than the 30 mpg I got, but with a 500 lb heavier X5d, rated at 26.

    Not me driving -- a guy from that bought here and decided to break it in on the highway. My butt was numb after driving back 515 miles in our X5d from Spartanburg. Can't imagine 830 miles non-stop.

    Don't they sell Cayenne diesels in Florida??
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited November 2012
    I have to agree with Gagrice on his observation the EPA and specifically the MPG figures has since become a political tool. One example is the "old" EPA and NEW EPA mpg tests.

    The political aspect seemed to rotate into prominence with the 2004 Toyota Prius debacle. IAW the so called "old" EPA mpg testing protocols, Toyota Prius owners routinely noted and complained about not even coming close to strictly produced EPA figures. If memory serves correctly, the EPA was 60 C and 50 mpg H. If anyone has a more "correct" figure, I will certainly stand corrected.

    Well it certainly seemed like outlier figures to most if not all 2004 Toyota Prius owners (not my view here, I am just the "messenger," but I do happen to agree with it, as I seriously considered the 03/04 Prius) I have read in passing the "normal" results were like 40-45 mpg. This issue/thing obviously blew up in the correct faces and also the fit hit the san, as it caused the test to be re protocol ized, ostensibly to allow the hybrid to do ... better. (of course with all denials to the contrary) On "this" old test TDI's ROUTINELY did much better, aka a GOOD lie? One real world example would be my previous post of 44 to 62 mpg doing nothing special with an EPA of 42 C 49 H. Now funny thing happened the new and old tests did nothing to change what I actually got in the REAL WORLD.

    So to me this is another way in which anti diesel sentiment was "demonstrated". The diesel still do wonderfully, but the overage percentages got better but were artificially disavowed. Now the 84 mpg on the Passat TDI with a NEW EPA of 43 mpg with AdBlue really is a stubborn reminder how "rigged" things can be. But that is only LOGICAL, albeit not political. ;) :lemon:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Manual and x Drive for me. At least we know you and I won't be fighting over the same car! :D
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited November 2012
    It is good to hear the Porsche Cayenne TDI is doing well right off the boat. The 32.4 mpg is well within my experiences, albeit even with much lower (55 mph) and higher speeds (ah over 55 mph). The key to good break in are low speeds and LOW equipment thrashing and up to 80% (4,100) of engine redline for aggressive engine and turbo break in. (redline being 5,100 rpm, since this is an A/T and computer controlled the computer normally shifts @ or before app 4.300 or so rpm.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 26,458
    I didn't know it was available yet. That's incredible for the size/weight of it.

    '10 Equinox LS; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 49-car history and counting!

  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    I was told on the X5d that the key to good break in was to keep the speed below 85, avoid excessive acceleration (keep rpms below 3,500 vs 5,000 rpm redline) and definitely don't use the cruise control and vary highway speed for the first 1,000-1,200 miles. This was by one of the professional BMW instructors who seemed to know a lot more about engines than your average sales guy. We now have 1,600 miles on the vehicle, so I'm looking forward to see how we do on our next long highway trip.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    That's incredible for the size/weight of it.

    Actually, Porsche did an admirable job of reducing the weight of the new Cayenne vs. previous generation. Down around 400 lbs. The diesel is still quite a bit heavier than the gas V6 manual transmission but it is WAY less than the Q7 TDI and well less than the Touareg.

    The Cayenne looks really great inside, as well. Porsche gets my kudos for the interiors of their current line-up. On other hand....the Cayenne diesel is several thousand $ more than the V6 gas, so your are paying a significant premium compared to BMW's diesel friendly eco-credit pricing on the X5. A quick back of the envelope analysis seems to indicate that it would take 100,000+ miles before the Cayenne diesel makes up its price premium in fuel savings. The X5d starts out at $1,500 ahead and just gets better from there.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited November 2012
    As you probably would agree the rpm range is really not that much different. Another is full engine break in does not occur till app 30,000 to 60,000 miles. The thing that is important is to vary the engine rpm. It is better to keep the speeds lower as opposed to higher for longevity of tires, brake pads and rotors and to a lesser extent suspension components.

    Another thing about the Porsche is that the options lists are almost bewildering vs say the three trim levels of the VW Tourareg TDI. Prices go from 60,280 to 85,495 and 44,170 to 63,800. So the differences range from a low of 16,110 to 21,695. I would also suspect real semi customization hadn't even started. To pay that much for a difference in weight between a Touareg and Cayenne of 179#'s might make a difference on a race track. I suspect it is a tad extreme for most folks.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    To pay that much for a difference in weight between a Touareg and Cayenne of 179#'s might make a difference on a race track. I suspect it is a tad extreme for most folks.

    My sense is that very very few Cayenne Diesel buyers seriously cross shop with the Touareg. I suspect that a lot of them could easily afford a $85k Cayenne S or $100k Panamera S, but find the Cayenne Diesel an attractive, if not as quick, alternative to put a Porsche in their garage. IMO, the Cayenne Diesel is for somebody that made the decision to buy a Porsche first, the particular model second. Not the person that is cross shopping diesel SUV's for the best price/value tradeoff. For those, the Touareg, X5d and Q7 make more sense, and dollars and cents.

    But it still looks great and I think Porsche has done a great job with the Cayenne redesign. Even if a steering wheel is still an option.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 26,458
    A quick back of the envelope analysis seems to indicate that it would take 100,000+ miles before the Cayenne diesel makes up its price premium in fuel savings.

    Its actually not quite that bad once you add the 8-speed tiptronic S to the base model that comes standard with the diesel. Comparably equipped, its about $4k difference. So only about 80k miles to make up the difference. ;)

    Seriously, though, a big selling point for me is less time at the pump. The idea that I could go over 2 weeks on my daily commute without visiting the station is very appealing. Is that worth $4k? eeehhhhh.... I dunno. I guess not.

    '10 Equinox LS; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 49-car history and counting!

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    Indeed it was and remains pretty key to Porsche's survival, despite the bru ha ha it caused initially.
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Its actually not quite that bad once you add the 8-speed tiptronic S to the base model that comes standard with the diesel.

    Fair point for 99.5% of SUV buyers. For my wife, the opposite.....if the Cayenne Diesel came with a 6-speed manual we would probably have one in our garage. I had to use the jaws of life to get her out of a Cayenne GTS 6-speed that I brought home as a service loaner a few years ago. I didn't even tempt her with a test drive of the Cayenne V6 6-speed that Auto Palace in Pittsburgh wanted to practically give me. That was tempting to me as well, but then I decided that I didn't really want Porsche service costs on an SUV for 10 years and 150k miles. It was painful enough on my 911 for 5 years and 30k miles.

    My wife is not Danica Patrick behind the wheel. She just grew up driving a stick and prefers one, even for DC area traffic. Slugged her way through it with a 1996 Isuzu Trooper 5-speed for 100k miles. But other than the base Cayenne, nothing left that still gives you that option. At least the X5d has an automatic that is a few rungs up in responsiveness from the mushy slushbox in our old MDX.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited November 2012
    This is probably a bit strange around here (silicon valley, CA) but there are FAR more P Cayennes than VW Touaregs.

    But then again the WSJ is indicating the lux vehicle markets are being literally HAMMERED despite a projected (2012 14.5 M vs 2009 of 10.5M) banner sales year, US markets. You, of course have detailed BMW's "incentives". 2012 X5 35 D's have inventory of 526.

    I read in passing MB does not plan to do much discounting on the M series (of which ML 350 blue tech is an option. Another web site shows 31 2012's of inventory.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/07/2014-volkswagen-golf-first-drive-review-video- /

    Dislikes: they reduced the gas tank size, else range could have been better. Hand brake is also gone. Thinner padding on the seats?

    Likes: 50 lbs lighter, decent 0-60, 36/50 mpg projected, more cargo and passenger room, mirror moved to door for better visibility.

    Supposedly some models lost 220 lbs, but just 50 here? Maybe they're comparing to the big 2.5l block.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 26,458
    Cayenne V6 6-speed that Auto Palace in Pittsburgh wanted to practically give me

    Just how much was this gift? :blush:

    meh, who am I kidding? I would never be satisfied with it when the GTS exists.

    '10 Equinox LS; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 49-car history and counting!

  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    MSRP of around $60k, buy price of $53k (under invoice).

    The GTS is a hot SUV...except no manual transmission on the new one. Oh, and that minor inconvenience of a $90k-100k= price tag.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,443
    the Touareg, X5d and Q7 make more sense

    Don't forget the ML350 Bluetec. That is still top of my list. Q7 is at the bottom. Being almost 70, I found the comfort of the ML seats best of the group. The X5D I drove had some pretty firm seating. Not as much 2nd row legroom either. The Touareg would probably be the best off road vehicle of the bunch.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited November 2012
    This might have hit the nail on the head.

    Fortune Digital (Complied by Omar Akhtar) page 14 November 12, 2012

    Comments We Loved (Fortune)

    " You can't sell a 'world car' in the United States, because a 'world car' has a diesel engine and a manual transmissio. The diesel engine adds $8k in federal regulations burden to the MSRP of the vehicle, and the hipsters won't drive a stick because it'l consume the hand they need to use for texting"

    Reader sc2pilot on "VW's brilliant new world car has one little problem."
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    The diesel engine adds $8k in federal regulations burden to the MSRP of the vehicle

    I'll have to google the article to see if they detail how they arrive at that number, but it's not what I heard from the BMW plant manager down in Spartanburg. When asked why we can't get the X3 2.0d and 2.5d's that I saw rolling off the assembly line, he put most of the blame upon US consumers still being slow to understand and embrace diesels. And the fact that BMW still sells more X5 3.5i gas models than X5d's, which are $1,500 LESS expensive up front is certainly evidence. And there are still a few new leftover 2011 335d's hanging around dealerships that I am sure one could get a spectacular deal on.

    I have no tolerance for overbearing, misguided federal regulations. But if the diesel regs really cost $8,000 per car over a large scale production, I am perplexed as to how we have any diesel cars or SUVs in the US, period?

    I'll put a little more research into this on my weekend to do list.
  • Thanks.. We need diesel in cars and out of big trucks..
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    Correct, ML and GL 350 Bluetecs make more sense as well. My only complaint about the ML350 from my test drives was that you needed their optional $5,000 dynamic handling package to approach the flat cornering and handling of the X5, and the steering and automatic transmission were still not as responsive (to me) as in the BMW. But for less enthusiastic driving and highway cruising comfort and quietness, it's a great choice.

    As for the best off road vehicle of the bunch, not sure that matters to 99% of SUV buyers today. Although, after having BMW lead me through their off road course at the Performance Delivery Center - which included 18"+ of standing water 30% sideway climbs 50% declines, etc., I'm not sure there are many vehicles - Range Rover included - that could beat the X5 off road. And if I ever take our own (i.e. my wife's) X5d through anything within 50% of the limits that I tested courtesy of BMW instructors what BMW did, I will either end up in divorce court or the hospital. Or both.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Valley of HellPosts: 2,179
    Habitat it is hard for american to embrace a fuel when the price of it is wild. Here in Phoenix, for a long time Diesel was cheaper then Premium Unleaded, however, this has changed and Diesel is now more. Usually about .10/g. Then add on top of that the price of the vehicleis higher. I remember and I'm sure you do too, that in the late 70s and 80's all of the MB diesel's were their entry level cars and they were less expensive then the gas counterpart. If manufactures would make their diesel powered vehicle competitive. Would you have bought your X5d if it didn't have the Eco credit you got?

    On the other hand, VW can not keep their diesel powered cars on their lot, even here in Phoenix.
  • flightnurseflightnurse Valley of HellPosts: 2,179
    I couldn't agree more, the GTS has the right dose of comfort and speed... However, the price.......

    meh, who am I kidding? I would never be satisfied with it when the GTS exists.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited November 2012
    I was surprised the BMW plant manager in which you speak, did not have the cost of federal regulations compliance for the gassers, diesels, and gas/hybrid. Perhaps that knowledge and comparisons are much too telling.

    The second and perhaps more convoluted point would be why the actual federal regulations compliance costs are opaque from consumers ! ?????

    To state the obvious, we do actually PAY for it. So for example in my $18,000 2003 Jetta TDI, 8k (total federal regulation compliance costs) is/are literally 80% of both the profit and cost of a "$10,000" vehicle. It would also have been 45% of the total purchase price. So if you add in the various taxes ([email protected] 9.5% or $1,710, not including hidden taxation), the cost of government/s approaches 97%, again on a 10,000 vehicle.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited November 2012
    With a Porsche Cayenne 100k price tag, I'd be just fine with TWO (.32) VW Touaregs !! ;)
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited November 2012
    I am also still waiting to get real owners feedback on the MB ML350 Blue Tech hybrid (CVT) automatic transmission. Evidently on test drive, YOU ( and I both) had issues with it. To be fair I only had app 4 hours with it. Got to love 455 # ft of torque !!
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,443
    But for less enthusiastic driving and highway cruising comfort and quietness, it's a great choice.

    That would be my interest in the ML Bluetec. I do like hitting the back roads and washes in the desert. I am really more interested in ground clearance that AWD. Though I learned a long time ago when selling the AWD/4X4 more than pays for itself. The X5 to me is a great handling vehicle. I was just a bit disappointed in the comfort level. Getting soft in my old age. Our Sequoia Limited is very comfortable and no aches or pains driving 600+ miles a day. It handles like a tuna boat though. And that infernal mileage. Plus I have less than 2 years to go on the Platinum warranty. So best to sell while still covered. Five years is long enough to keep a vehicle you are not 100% satisfied with.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    "As we take the wheel of the 2013 Volkswagen Jetta Hybrid, we're wondering why VW bothered to build this car at all. This is the brand that touts the fuel efficiency and performance of diesel cars, and its diesel-powered Jetta TDI already matches the highway mpg of many hybrids.

    But it's easy to forget that diesel is still just a cult hit in the United States. And it isn't even on the radar of your typical hybrid buyer.

    "Toyota Prius buyers don't look at the Jetta TDI at all," Rainer Michel, vice president of product marketing and strategy for Volkswagen of America, tells us. "For somebody who likes the Jetta already, why wouldn't you want to give him a hybrid?"

    2013 Volkswagen Jetta Hybrid First Drive (Inside Line)
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited November 2012
    This of course is NOT the first VW (US market) hybrid. VW offered a hybrid variant in both 2011/2012 MY's Touareg. (most didn't even know, let alone the important point: didn't care)

    However, I am glad that at least one writer has recognized that diesels easily trump hybrids, even with the "deal breaking/game killing $8,000 Federal regulations compliance costs. Even in 2003/2004 time frame, the Prius hybrid costs over whelmed the diesel cost (Jetta TDI) by a minimum of $7,000 and gasser cost by a minimum of $10,000 to 12,000.

    Saying this kind of stuff will get one " burnt at the liberal stake" and is not easily sound bite able. (most of the audiences' eyes glaze over, voices look for easily sung mantra's and Barney Frank looks like he is having a heart attack, eating rubber chicken or just making a point in the senate,

    The real reasons are of course three fold. The US regulatory policies are : 1. anti carbon: given rise to A. hybrid (20% advantage over gasser only B. ethanol (deficient of - 10% to - 20%) 2. anti diesel ( 30% ADVANTAGE) (given rise to $8,000 hidden FED compliance prices) 3. electric: given rise to ( electrical) plant conversions (from coal and nuclear) to natural gas, knowing for a long time the unimaginable abundance OF domestic natural gas. Costs of course are WAY higher and on many fronts.

    My take is that VW's "compliance to both the 1 a and b is rewarded (opaquely) by IRS tax incentives, credits and deductions, not to mention other business incentives. Probably more to the point while VW is still committed to diesel, it has integrated its lessons and learning in the US markets. The corollary of course will be VW wanted more bang for the buck for beating its head against the anti diesel brick wall in the US markets. I do not think it an accident that US Passats are now being made in Chattanooga, TN with capacity to 800,000 units per year.

    From a logical point of view, It is also a "trial flag run up the flag pole" If it does work at whatever levels they are trying to ascertain, it will be a strong Prius competitor. It will be a "Corolla" upgrade. It will also be a Camry competitor. (3 birds 1 stone drill, hybrid being the common denominator)
  • habitat1habitat1 Posts: 4,282
    diesels easily trump hybrids

    Except that they shouldn't be playing at the same poker (or bridge) table.

    We have an X5d that makes all the sense in the world for us as an SUV that will be seeing at least a 50/50 mix of highway driving.

    Friends have a Prius that rarely makes it's way outside the Washington DC Beltway. Their 90% short hop city driving means they are getting far better MPG than any diesel could achieve under those conditions. For all intents and purposes, they use it like a high speed, enclosed golf cart. They have a Mercedes SUV that hauls the kids and goes out on the highway. Which they will likely replace in the next year or two with a diesel variant.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The really odd thing is C&D picked the hybrid in a direct comparison:

    http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2011-vw-touareg-v6-tdi-vs-2011-vw-touare- g-hybrid-comparison-test

    Just one opinion, and we all know how it ended for the T-reg hybrid.

    VW will sell a few dozen Jetta hybrids and realize they should focus on diesels, maybe even offer 2 variants.

    VW is going for global volume but they can't be all things to all people. Stick with what you do well...
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited November 2012
    The VW T hybrid variant cost 10k to 20k more than VW T TDI !! ?? It also gets less mpg. How it is advertised is that it is a V-8 in DRAG ! (V6 turbo gasser).

    In answer to Habitant's observation, the 3.0 L V6 TDI with (my) 30 to 36 mpg) easily trumps the 3.5 L V-6 Camry and Honda Accord @ 24.7 and 21.9 mpg respectively.
This discussion has been closed.