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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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On diesel I would assume a Cetane enhancer would give better results. Not sure that is true. I remember getting the best mileage on my MB Cruiser diesel in TX. I thought it was less mountains.
Since the change to ULSD, I can also tell no difference in mpg. Let me be the first to say this is anecdotal and NON scientific. So if someone made a case for cluelessness, I might find it hard to refute: aka 50 mpg with/without cetane enhancers: with without CA 49 state LSD: ULSD with/without cetane enhancers and on ULSD or not. is STILL 50 mpg. (Carol King's song x 2 for ULSD).
Can I say the same about RUG/PUG? Absolutely not !!
Several years ago, Honda/Acura got called out for overstating their horsepower ratings. Some by as much as 15+ horsepower. Don't think they ever offered any compensation to buyers, and I never had any horses show up on my doorstep courtesy of Acura.
I had always wondered if Japanese cars used Shetland ponies and Porsche/BMW/Audi used Clydesdales as their respective measuring sticks. Apparently, they just couldn't read the dynamometer correctly.
For RUG and PUG Octane ratings are usually stated prominently (CA 87/93). I am sure there are also real world penalities for (UNDER) misrepresentation, i.e.., 85 octane when paying for 87 octane.
I remember Mazda offered $500 to '99 Miata owners or they would even buy the cars back.
My theory was, if you test drove it and liked it, then bought it, take the $500 and run. It's not like the car was any slower the day after you found out.
I don't think many people took them up on the offer to sell the cars back, FWIW. Plus it was only a matter of 5hp or so.
Before that, Hyundai settles overstated horsepower lawsuit (Autoblog)
Mazda did something similar with a Miata model. (Juice beat me to it).
I'm with you though the variation in mileage with Gasoline seems far more radical than with Diesel.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
I wonder just how strict. I mean, are they all tested at the same elevation, same ambient temps, same humidity, etc? Is there one facility where all manufacturers go to do this ... all around the same time of year ... all with the same driver? I'd have to imagine they allow SOME margin of error, no?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCbfGBPnGiI
I'll take a 3er wagon with the diesel in a manual. I'm just afraid to ask the price....
Customers can choose from six engine variants for the MINI Countryman. The three petrol and three diesel units produce outputs stretching from 66 kW/90 hp to 135 kW/184 hp. Beyond these, there is also the ultra-sporty MINI John Cooper Works Countryman, powered by a turbocharged 160 kW/218 hp engine. The ALL4 all-wheel-drive system fitted as standard on this top-class performance variant is also available as an option for the MINI Cooper S Countryman, MINI Cooper SD Countryman and MINI Cooper D Countryman. All models, with the exception of the MINI One D Countryman, can be ordered with a six-speed automatic gearbox as an alternative to the standard six-speed manual. The impressive efficiency of the engines and gearboxes along with extensive MINIMALISM technology ensure all the MINI Countryman variants achieve an exemplary balance between driving fun and fuel economy. Added to which, from autumn 2012 manual versions of the MINI One Countryman and MINI Cooper Countryman will meet the stipulations of the EU6 exhaust emissions standard due to come into force in 2014.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Not me driving -- a guy from that bought here and decided to break it in on the highway. My butt was numb after driving back 515 miles in our X5d from Spartanburg. Can't imagine 830 miles non-stop.
Don't they sell Cayenne diesels in Florida??
The political aspect seemed to rotate into prominence with the 2004 Toyota Prius debacle. IAW the so called "old" EPA mpg testing protocols, Toyota Prius owners routinely noted and complained about not even coming close to strictly produced EPA figures. If memory serves correctly, the EPA was 60 C and 50 mpg H. If anyone has a more "correct" figure, I will certainly stand corrected.
Well it certainly seemed like outlier figures to most if not all 2004 Toyota Prius owners (not my view here, I am just the "messenger," but I do happen to agree with it, as I seriously considered the 03/04 Prius) I have read in passing the "normal" results were like 40-45 mpg. This issue/thing obviously blew up in the correct faces and also the fit hit the san, as it caused the test to be re protocol ized, ostensibly to allow the hybrid to do ... better. (of course with all denials to the contrary) On "this" old test TDI's ROUTINELY did much better, aka a GOOD lie? One real world example would be my previous post of 44 to 62 mpg doing nothing special with an EPA of 42 C 49 H. Now funny thing happened the new and old tests did nothing to change what I actually got in the REAL WORLD.
So to me this is another way in which anti diesel sentiment was "demonstrated". The diesel still do wonderfully, but the overage percentages got better but were artificially disavowed. Now the 84 mpg on the Passat TDI with a NEW EPA of 43 mpg with AdBlue really is a stubborn reminder how "rigged" things can be. But that is only LOGICAL, albeit not political. :lemon:
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Actually, Porsche did an admirable job of reducing the weight of the new Cayenne vs. previous generation. Down around 400 lbs. The diesel is still quite a bit heavier than the gas V6 manual transmission but it is WAY less than the Q7 TDI and well less than the Touareg.
The Cayenne looks really great inside, as well. Porsche gets my kudos for the interiors of their current line-up. On other hand....the Cayenne diesel is several thousand $ more than the V6 gas, so your are paying a significant premium compared to BMW's diesel friendly eco-credit pricing on the X5. A quick back of the envelope analysis seems to indicate that it would take 100,000+ miles before the Cayenne diesel makes up its price premium in fuel savings. The X5d starts out at $1,500 ahead and just gets better from there.
Another thing about the Porsche is that the options lists are almost bewildering vs say the three trim levels of the VW Tourareg TDI. Prices go from 60,280 to 85,495 and 44,170 to 63,800. So the differences range from a low of 16,110 to 21,695. I would also suspect real semi customization hadn't even started. To pay that much for a difference in weight between a Touareg and Cayenne of 179#'s might make a difference on a race track. I suspect it is a tad extreme for most folks.
My sense is that very very few Cayenne Diesel buyers seriously cross shop with the Touareg. I suspect that a lot of them could easily afford a $85k Cayenne S or $100k Panamera S, but find the Cayenne Diesel an attractive, if not as quick, alternative to put a Porsche in their garage. IMO, the Cayenne Diesel is for somebody that made the decision to buy a Porsche first, the particular model second. Not the person that is cross shopping diesel SUV's for the best price/value tradeoff. For those, the Touareg, X5d and Q7 make more sense, and dollars and cents.
But it still looks great and I think Porsche has done a great job with the Cayenne redesign. Even if a steering wheel is still an option.
Its actually not quite that bad once you add the 8-speed tiptronic S to the base model that comes standard with the diesel. Comparably equipped, its about $4k difference. So only about 80k miles to make up the difference.
Seriously, though, a big selling point for me is less time at the pump. The idea that I could go over 2 weeks on my daily commute without visiting the station is very appealing. Is that worth $4k? eeehhhhh.... I dunno. I guess not.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
Fair point for 99.5% of SUV buyers. For my wife, the opposite.....if the Cayenne Diesel came with a 6-speed manual we would probably have one in our garage. I had to use the jaws of life to get her out of a Cayenne GTS 6-speed that I brought home as a service loaner a few years ago. I didn't even tempt her with a test drive of the Cayenne V6 6-speed that Auto Palace in Pittsburgh wanted to practically give me. That was tempting to me as well, but then I decided that I didn't really want Porsche service costs on an SUV for 10 years and 150k miles. It was painful enough on my 911 for 5 years and 30k miles.
My wife is not Danica Patrick behind the wheel. She just grew up driving a stick and prefers one, even for DC area traffic. Slugged her way through it with a 1996 Isuzu Trooper 5-speed for 100k miles. But other than the base Cayenne, nothing left that still gives you that option. At least the X5d has an automatic that is a few rungs up in responsiveness from the mushy slushbox in our old MDX.
But then again the WSJ is indicating the lux vehicle markets are being literally HAMMERED despite a projected (2012 14.5 M vs 2009 of 10.5M) banner sales year, US markets. You, of course have detailed BMW's "incentives". 2012 X5 35 D's have inventory of 526.
I read in passing MB does not plan to do much discounting on the M series (of which ML 350 blue tech is an option. Another web site shows 31 2012's of inventory.
Dislikes: they reduced the gas tank size, else range could have been better. Hand brake is also gone. Thinner padding on the seats?
Likes: 50 lbs lighter, decent 0-60, 36/50 mpg projected, more cargo and passenger room, mirror moved to door for better visibility.
Supposedly some models lost 220 lbs, but just 50 here? Maybe they're comparing to the big 2.5l block.
Just how much was this gift?
meh, who am I kidding? I would never be satisfied with it when the GTS exists.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S
The GTS is a hot SUV...except no manual transmission on the new one. Oh, and that minor inconvenience of a $90k-100k= price tag.
Don't forget the ML350 Bluetec. That is still top of my list. Q7 is at the bottom. Being almost 70, I found the comfort of the ML seats best of the group. The X5D I drove had some pretty firm seating. Not as much 2nd row legroom either. The Touareg would probably be the best off road vehicle of the bunch.
Fortune Digital (Complied by Omar Akhtar) page 14 November 12, 2012
Comments We Loved (Fortune)
" You can't sell a 'world car' in the United States, because a 'world car' has a diesel engine and a manual transmissio. The diesel engine adds $8k in federal regulations burden to the MSRP of the vehicle, and the hipsters won't drive a stick because it'l consume the hand they need to use for texting"
Reader sc2pilot on "VW's brilliant new world car has one little problem."
I'll have to google the article to see if they detail how they arrive at that number, but it's not what I heard from the BMW plant manager down in Spartanburg. When asked why we can't get the X3 2.0d and 2.5d's that I saw rolling off the assembly line, he put most of the blame upon US consumers still being slow to understand and embrace diesels. And the fact that BMW still sells more X5 3.5i gas models than X5d's, which are $1,500 LESS expensive up front is certainly evidence. And there are still a few new leftover 2011 335d's hanging around dealerships that I am sure one could get a spectacular deal on.
I have no tolerance for overbearing, misguided federal regulations. But if the diesel regs really cost $8,000 per car over a large scale production, I am perplexed as to how we have any diesel cars or SUVs in the US, period?
I'll put a little more research into this on my weekend to do list.
As for the best off road vehicle of the bunch, not sure that matters to 99% of SUV buyers today. Although, after having BMW lead me through their off road course at the Performance Delivery Center - which included 18"+ of standing water 30% sideway climbs 50% declines, etc., I'm not sure there are many vehicles - Range Rover included - that could beat the X5 off road. And if I ever take our own (i.e. my wife's) X5d through anything within 50% of the limits that I tested courtesy of BMW instructors what BMW did, I will either end up in divorce court or the hospital. Or both.
On the other hand, VW can not keep their diesel powered cars on their lot, even here in Phoenix.
meh, who am I kidding? I would never be satisfied with it when the GTS exists.
The second and perhaps more convoluted point would be why the actual federal regulations compliance costs are opaque from consumers ! ?????
To state the obvious, we do actually PAY for it. So for example in my $18,000 2003 Jetta TDI, 8k (total federal regulation compliance costs) is/are literally 80% of both the profit and cost of a "$10,000" vehicle. It would also have been 45% of the total purchase price. So if you add in the various taxes (grossly@ 9.5% or $1,710, not including hidden taxation), the cost of government/s approaches 97%, again on a 10,000 vehicle.
That would be my interest in the ML Bluetec. I do like hitting the back roads and washes in the desert. I am really more interested in ground clearance that AWD. Though I learned a long time ago when selling the AWD/4X4 more than pays for itself. The X5 to me is a great handling vehicle. I was just a bit disappointed in the comfort level. Getting soft in my old age. Our Sequoia Limited is very comfortable and no aches or pains driving 600+ miles a day. It handles like a tuna boat though. And that infernal mileage. Plus I have less than 2 years to go on the Platinum warranty. So best to sell while still covered. Five years is long enough to keep a vehicle you are not 100% satisfied with.
But it's easy to forget that diesel is still just a cult hit in the United States. And it isn't even on the radar of your typical hybrid buyer.
"Toyota Prius buyers don't look at the Jetta TDI at all," Rainer Michel, vice president of product marketing and strategy for Volkswagen of America, tells us. "For somebody who likes the Jetta already, why wouldn't you want to give him a hybrid?"
2013 Volkswagen Jetta Hybrid First Drive (Inside Line)
However, I am glad that at least one writer has recognized that diesels easily trump hybrids, even with the "deal breaking/game killing $8,000 Federal regulations compliance costs. Even in 2003/2004 time frame, the Prius hybrid costs over whelmed the diesel cost (Jetta TDI) by a minimum of $7,000 and gasser cost by a minimum of $10,000 to 12,000.
Saying this kind of stuff will get one " burnt at the liberal stake" and is not easily sound bite able. (most of the audiences' eyes glaze over, voices look for easily sung mantra's and Barney Frank looks like he is having a heart attack, eating rubber chicken or just making a point in the senate,
The real reasons are of course three fold. The US regulatory policies are : 1. anti carbon: given rise to A. hybrid (20% advantage over gasser only B. ethanol (deficient of - 10% to - 20%) 2. anti diesel ( 30% ADVANTAGE) (given rise to $8,000 hidden FED compliance prices) 3. electric: given rise to ( electrical) plant conversions (from coal and nuclear) to natural gas, knowing for a long time the unimaginable abundance OF domestic natural gas. Costs of course are WAY higher and on many fronts.
My take is that VW's "compliance to both the 1 a and b is rewarded (opaquely) by IRS tax incentives, credits and deductions, not to mention other business incentives. Probably more to the point while VW is still committed to diesel, it has integrated its lessons and learning in the US markets. The corollary of course will be VW wanted more bang for the buck for beating its head against the anti diesel brick wall in the US markets. I do not think it an accident that US Passats are now being made in Chattanooga, TN with capacity to 800,000 units per year.
From a logical point of view, It is also a "trial flag run up the flag pole" If it does work at whatever levels they are trying to ascertain, it will be a strong Prius competitor. It will be a "Corolla" upgrade. It will also be a Camry competitor. (3 birds 1 stone drill, hybrid being the common denominator)
Except that they shouldn't be playing at the same poker (or bridge) table.
We have an X5d that makes all the sense in the world for us as an SUV that will be seeing at least a 50/50 mix of highway driving.
Friends have a Prius that rarely makes it's way outside the Washington DC Beltway. Their 90% short hop city driving means they are getting far better MPG than any diesel could achieve under those conditions. For all intents and purposes, they use it like a high speed, enclosed golf cart. They have a Mercedes SUV that hauls the kids and goes out on the highway. Which they will likely replace in the next year or two with a diesel variant.
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2011-vw-touareg-v6-tdi-vs-2011-vw-touare- g-hybrid-comparison-test
Just one opinion, and we all know how it ended for the T-reg hybrid.
VW will sell a few dozen Jetta hybrids and realize they should focus on diesels, maybe even offer 2 variants.
VW is going for global volume but they can't be all things to all people. Stick with what you do well...
In answer to Habitant's observation, the 3.0 L V6 TDI with (my) 30 to 36 mpg) easily trumps the 3.5 L V-6 Camry and Honda Accord @ 24.7 and 21.9 mpg respectively.