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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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Comments

  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,439
    If it is primarily for Brazil. The 1.0L Gas engine will be able to run on E100 fuel as well as Gas. It may have been designed on an existing chassis with Brazil being the only projected market. That is a huge market with big tariffs on anything not built in Brazil.

    I was looking at the Yeti and Roomster. What is the difference?

    Another possibility is the Seat line. They also have a 1.0L gas engine in some of their cars.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,439
    How did I miss this one? That is exactly what I am looking for. The 2013 VW Passat Alltrack TDI.
    I could get rid of the LS400 and Sequoia. A one vehicle fits all needs. Except keep the Nissan Friontier for hauling stuff.

    image
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 4,631
    Of course not.

    Thanks, CARB, and don't forget the EPA that causes each powertrain to go through many expensive hoops to get "qualified."

    The election's coming soon. You want more of this?
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Looks like it'd be easier to climb in and out of but I thought you wanted something SUVier and with more clearance for the desert?

    Didn't think it was coming to the US either though. (link)
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,439
    The Audi Allroad and the Alltrack here are just about perfect for most of our desert roads. I don't go boulder hopping. Just a lot of sandy desert roads. My biggest problems with sedans is getting in and out. That and our roads are 3rd World in CA. The government wasted our billions in gas tax on crap like the high speed rail that will never happen.

    The issue with gas is our designer gas is just not as good for mileage as most gas around the country. So the sooner I get rid of anything that uses gasoline the better. A luxury diesel SUV would be nice. I could get by with the Alltrack if it gets 40+ MPG on the highway. Easier to justify taking trips. Looks somewhat bigger than the Sportswagen.

    image
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    "While the price of gasoline has dropped over the past month, not everyone is happy.

    Jesse Staley drives a 2002 Volkswagen Jetta that runs on diesel.

    He filled up for $3.85 a gallon Friday at a Murphy USA station that was selling regular unleaded gasoline for $2.95.

    "When I bought this car, diesel was $1.15 a gallon. Now it's almost $1 more than gasoline," he said.

    "Typically demand does not fluctuate with diesel because it is mostly used by 18-wheelers, which don't have a demand season or an off season," Mai said. "Diesel also uses a more expensive, low-sulfur formulation the EPA rolled out about a year ago." (Bloomberg)
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,439
    Looks like Australia offers most of the good diesel SUVs and PU trucks. But the prices will knock your socks off. We are spoiled in the USA for vehicle prices. Maybe it is time to have a VAT to get them more realistic with the rest of the World. My current favorite ML250 Bluetec is for sale in Australia. BUT the price is breathtaking.

    the new range will introduce four-cylinder diesel power courtesy of the 2.2-litre direct-injection twin-turbo engine introduced on Mercedes passenger cars.

    This will create the $81,400 ML250 BlueTec, undercutting rival BMW’s cheapest X5 (the $92,100 xDrive30d) by a whopping $10,700, and Audi’s $90,500 Q7 3.0 TDI by $9100.

    The four-cylinder Benz will also help to bridge the gap to smaller and cheaper BMW and Audi SUVs – the BMW X3 and Audi Q5 – that range between $62,000 and $75,000.


    But the ML250 Bluetec gets about 37 MPG US combined. As they say better than a Corolla.

    http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/ACAB55F1D138EC23CA257989001FD7- 21
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    Actually BOTH TDI versions DO get "40" mpg, albeit 5.7 to 5.8 L per 100 km, which converts to 40.55 to 41.26 mpg, aka 128 oz per gal.

    ..."Volkswagen will offer all-wheel drive as an option. Just how efficiently the engines of the VW Passat Alltrack operate together with the intelligently controlled 4MOTION all-wheel drive system is illustrated by the two TDI engines: the 140 PS version has a low combined fuel consumption of 5.7 l/100 km (equivalent to 150 g/km CO2), while fuel consumption for the 170 PS version is 5.8 l/100 km (152 g/km CO2). The Volkswagen Passat Alltrack will debut in a world premiere at the 2011 Tokyo Motor Show; market launch for the new versatile Alltrack begins in early 2012."...

    2013 Passat Alltrack

    Given the US EPA of 43 mpg for the Passat TDI sedan, the extra "estate & 4 motion" machinery shaves off app 2 to 3 mpg., if the all track is either wanted, needed, required.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    OK pop 3.45M, CA pop 33.9 M, CA scale is almost 10 times greater than OK. Diesel 3.85 OK, Diesel corner store (NOR CA) (actually 1 mile away from the SF 49ners new football stadium) ULSD=$ 4.25. RUG $3.99.

    OK is one of the BIGGEST oil/gas producer states.

    While I would assume that everything the article says is probably true, some of the scales and conclusions might not match the correlations they make/imply.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 48,386
    Oz dollar is overvalued, and they pay stupendous taxes, so that makes for insane prices. It's also a nanny state, so don't pack your bags just yet :shades:
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    in relation to all that is going on in the world and the EC,

    ULSD drops to $ 4.27 (yes, same corner store). SF Giants won the world serious. The celebration parade is scheduled for today. (Ah, will make it a point to watch it on Cable TV) Just did a fill for 31.4 mpg. Ho hum.

    There are 336 units of 2012 VW Touareg TDI's in the US market inventory. ;)
  • flightnurseflightnurse Valley of HellPosts: 2,178
    There are 336 units of 2012 VW Touareg TDI's in the US market inventory.

    What's the average price of these Touareg's?
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    I do not really know. You might want to add up all the prices and divide the answer by 336 units.

    The RANGE of prices is from $39,990 to $60,655. There are three trim levels for the TDI: Sport/Luxury/Executive. The data base lists 191 unknown, Sport 81, Lux 52, Exec 12.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    We may get a diesel Outback, likely before we see that.

    Taigun is neat, but Brazil loves small cars. The Ford EcoSport was a HUGE success, at one point the best selling "utilitario" there.

    It's tiny - EcoSport is based on Fiesta platform.

    That VW will be a hit there, watch.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    Judging by the 2012 Passat TDI, it is literally HUGE. So the EPA of 43 mpg and record setting 84 mpg is slightly to almost WILDLY amazing to me. So again a loss of 1 to 2 mpg for an all track....
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,439
    The Passat AllTrack, looks much like the 1999-2005 Audi A6 Allroad Quattro. I thought that was a great looking wagon. Either one with a TDI would move to the top of my list. I am still hoping for a big 4 cylinder diesel SUV.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Even with the fractional loss it would use half the fuel of a similarly sized SUV.

    Subaru will sell a billion Outback diesels when they finally offer it.

    Look at the Impreza - they cut power and engine size and increased the price, then sales more than doubled. The XV exceeded demand expecations by 400% in Japan. And that's with mid 30s mpg, imagine 40+.

    People are craving fuel efficient AWD. Demand is enormous.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    Indeed Subaru could use a streak of GREAT sales !! Not that I am any expert, but I have read (in passing) Subaru is struggling. (world wide)
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,439
    I could get used to a top of the line Outback with a diesel engine. Do they have an automatic transmission that will take the torque? Do you think they can pass emissions without Adblue? Honda failed, will Subaru catch the Germans and get past the CARB weenies?
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited October 2012
    I do not know this to be true, but it would seem that the so called diesel option premium/s is /are part of the cost/s of getting TDI's through " the multitudes of regulatory gauntlets". What amortization schedules they are on is/are beyond me. The underlying assumption are that manufacturing costs are similar for both gasser/diesel.

    However they can be inferred. One example could be the 2009 Jetta TDI, 1,500 IRS tax credit. Memory is a bit blurred, but as I remember: 65,000 units on limited conditions and time frames basis were eligible on the consumer side. The math would then indicated those costs would be a minimum of $ 97.5 M. (65,000 units x $1,500=) Needless to say for that generation model AND the $100 M Mahindra wasted up front to attempt to get their diesel here, the economic bars are VERY VERY high.

    So again, if I can swag again, Subaru has to probably be able to sell a minimum of 65,000 diesel units and do the market research that 65,000 will be bought for that particular MY.

    They can be inserted or cut out of the over all deals in a plethora of ways. Who knows what it is/was/continues to be on the oem/vendor sides.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The bigger Forester and Outback have done better here than elsewhere, but they're still doing fine. US sales will easily hit another record.

    The new Impreza is a smash hit, even overseas.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited November 2012
    So I guess the question is what does that mean in relationship to app 65,000 units (common engine) in diesel sales per model, i.e., 65,000 spread over Forester/Outback/Impreza?

    But really in line with my swag I think, that is why VW has used the 2.0 L TDI (common engine) in all the models that it has brought to the US markets. Ones that I can think of are Passat, Jetta, Golf, NB.

    The other TDI engine, will probably be the 3.0 L TDI in variety of combinations, turbo, twin turbo, etc.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    142mph, and no rolling start, either:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E0LYU0AYG8&list=PL8F0981B98726601A&feature=playe- r_embedded#!

    FFWD to 4:42 to see the speed run.
  • xwesxxwesx Fairbanks, AlaskaPosts: 13,215
    The numbers game, along with the product spread (models are similar in size, fuel economy, etc., so to some extent sales are self-cannibalized between the models), is why I think Subaru should go for a little more differentiation in the engine offerings. Basically, take Forester (for example) and make it diesel-only. XV (slightly smaller) is gas as is Outback. Then you have a significant size differentiation between the gas models, as well as a significant drivetrain differentiation in the intermediate.

    I think the AWD fuel economy of the diesel model would practically sell itself, as long as model pricing didn't present a barricade.
    2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2008 and 2013 Subaru Forester(s), 1969 Chevrolet C20 Pickup, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250 Pickup
  • xwesxxwesx Fairbanks, AlaskaPosts: 13,215
    The last 20 seconds of the video are hilarious. "It wasn't even that bad, really." :P
    2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2008 and 2013 Subaru Forester(s), 1969 Chevrolet C20 Pickup, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250 Pickup
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    By your own explanation, you know why it (TDI's) aint happening for some oem's like Subaru in the US of A.
  • xwesxxwesx Fairbanks, AlaskaPosts: 13,215
    Yep, it's a risk issue. That said, though, the timing is perfect for just the reasons juice pointed out earlier.
    2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2008 and 2013 Subaru Forester(s), 1969 Chevrolet C20 Pickup, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250 Pickup
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    Well, ....we all know how that is playing out for Subaru. Still...NADA.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited November 2012
    Hyundai & Kia caught OVERSTATING FE ( cooking the GASSER figures).

    13 H Santa Fe Sport, over stating 5% to 13.7% (C 22 mpg claimed to 21 mpg revised: H 33 mpg claimed to 29 mpg revised )

    13 H Elantra Coupe, overstating 3.7% to 5.4% (C 28 claimed to 27 revised: H 39 claimed to 37 revised)

    13 Kia Rio, overstating 7.14% to 11.1% (C 30 claimed to 28 revised: 40 claimed to 36 revised)
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    So you're saying they are losing money making diesels in the EU? Not sure what this has to do with the topic.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,439
    Ford management has proven themselves more adept at making the right moves for a long time. Building in Brazil, bailing on the EU, expanding in Mexico. Makes more sense than slogging along like GM. Not sure diesels are a factor in the demise of the EU market. Unless GM and Ford diesels are just not as good as VW and some of the other Euro brands.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited November 2012
    Well yes and no. US markets are having a literal bang up year (14.5 M in sales). I am not sure what %'s both Ford/GM sells in Europe and of gasser/diesel. VW and probably MB will probably post a bang up year IN (US market) diesels, if not over all their oem sales !
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    And what percent of this bang up year are going to diesel sales?

    Maybe if the manufacturers sold more diesels, more people would buy them.

    Hm, chicken and egg.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited November 2012
    They do not normally publish sales till Jan/Feb of the next year. I am sure Edmunds.com knows those types of information and actually has a hand in its dissemination, as august as the organization has become.

    I think I have @ least made a "logical" case for the high bar of entry into the diesel segment.

    Are you saying the oems that do not have diesels in the US markets ARE chicken and do not want to bring those products (eggs) to market (US)? ;)
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    If they sold more, they'd build more, right?

    So VW needs to sell a bunch so the rest of the automakers take notice.

    But yeah, bean counters do have a reputation for being "conservative".
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    VW has been selling TDI's in the US markets for more than a decade. I think the other oems would have to be blind/deaf to have NOT noticed.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Makes you wonder where they all are eh?
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited November 2012
    Absolutely YES AND NO ! ? Here is a graphic put out by Toyota that might put some of the oems AND numbers in some type of perspective. Diesel percentages while included (in the total global and US sales) are essentially hidden.

    2011 world car sales INFOGRAPHIC

    Possible back story

    VW, a relative "heavy weight" of diesel in the US markets (aka absolutely's YES and NO) has only now 4.5% of the US market share. ( in an UPWARD direction: gassers and diesels and hybrids)

    So IF (my swag ONLY) diesels are 20% of their market share , then the most diesel % is .9% (less than 1%)

    To put that in a word perspective, passenger diesels have been and remain in almost an extreme minority position. (NTE 5% of 257.5 M (2010 NHTSA reg vehicle figures) = 12.875 M passenger vehicle diesels) 50% of that percentage are so called "light trucks, " passenger vehicle category. (now 6.44 M) This leaves app 3.22 M passenger CAR diesels (/ 257.5 M ), or

    less than 1.25%

    NHTSA FARS
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    They're actually writing checks to buyers to reimburse them for the miles they've driven.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 26,314
    Huh?

    How does that work? Is that referring to the EPA numbers.... which Hyundai has nothing to do with?

    '10 Equinox LS; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 49-car history and counting!

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited November 2012
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 26,314
    exactly. Hence my confusion.

    The article helps some... but I'm still a bit lost as to the logistics. I thought all numbers on window stickers were EPA numbers.

    '10 Equinox LS; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 49-car history and counting!

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited November 2012
    To cut to the chase, but you should research it ( How the oems do EPA protocols with spot checking by the EPA), as you question both the post and validity: but in effect they (swore) they did it under EPA protocols and published it. When the EPA checked up on how Hyundai did the protocols, Hyudai/Kia in effect lied 13 times, which affects/effects 1 M vehicles. In effect, they could have "lied" the other way (post 36 but really got 38) and gotten a pat on the back !?

    Actually it is rather stupid, as all it would have taken is one call to the EPA before complaints. To have heard these (by then numerous and multi model) complaints after most probably called Hyundai and Kia with no satisfaction/s probably struck the regulatory agencies: to where they imposed a series of how would you say: options.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 26,314
    as you question both the post and validity

    No. You are being overly defensive. Asking for clarification is not the same as doubting. Not even close.

    So I assume then it is standard practice that manufacturers test their own cars? And they state them as EPA numbers? I never realized that. That makes me doubt all numbers .... not that they mattered much anyway to me.

    '10 Equinox LS; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '18 BMW X2. 49-car history and counting!

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited November 2012
    Defensive? Not even. I merely said YOU should check it yourself, perhaps it is you that did not like the stated reasons. Yes, I have understood that to be standard practice. What percentages rate spot checks? I do not have privy to the information.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    The way I understand it is that the EPA publishes strict guidelines on how vehicles are tested. The manufacturers do the testing. The EPA spot checks some small percentage. In Hyundai/Kia's case, the EPA tested after getting lots of complaints.

    Penalties for gaming the test are big.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited November 2012
    Correct, those are protocols: Repeatable. The protocols do not call for EXACT match, but things do get a bit weird, if results do not fall within a certain margin of error. It looks like a reoccuring "theme" across 13 models.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    I was surprised they use real live test drivers to run the test, and the test calls for various scenarios to simulate different driving conditions. Highly skilled drivers are used, but you'd figure they'd just hook 'em up to a dyno and call it good.

    One problem is that you'd never be able to buy a gallon of the "pure" gas they use (and I assume they cherry pick the diesel fuel for the test too).
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited November 2012
    This is PURELY an op ed, but that is one reason why I like the TDI's with manual transmissions so (not perfect- still wish it was a 6 speed instead of a 5 speed). Once one knows the diesel parameters (if one drives the gasser, the gasser parameters and if one drives both, obviously both) you can really go from mild to wild mpg with little to NO effort over a corresponding gasser.

    Again the 03 TDI has an (old)EPA of 42 C /49 H I have gotten a range of mpg of 44 (low) to a high of 62 mpg. In a horrendous commute slog it gets between 48-52 mpg. @ 75 mph highway with bursts to 85, 59 mpg. Truth is I am just fine with 48/50 mpg and will leave off the speeds :shades: I buy the cheapest ULSD I can find. ;) :shades: 179,000 miles later, it literally still amazes me.
This discussion has been closed.