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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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Comments

  • I'm thinking that one main reason people in the USA do not buy Diesels is because we keep getting told we dont buy diesels in the USA !

    I'm thinking the reason the oil companies sell diesel at a higher cost is that they can, we dont have a system of checks to make a private company charge what they should so they charge all they can with no worries !

    I'm thinking that car makers will fight making longer lasting diesel vehicles as long as they can, why make a vehicle that can last 200,000 miles when you can make one that will go 100,000 and sell two of them ?

    I'm thinking there is Zillions of dollars being tossed around on so called man made global warming, and not even a dollar spent to tell the people that this earth is a living ever changing world ! Ya cant charge people more money to tell them lifes a bytch but ya can charge them more money by telling them its all their fault !
  • bobny57bobny57 Posts: 30
    Why does diesel cost so much more than even premium gas? It is my understanding that requires less refining. Refining is a costly process. Are we talking conspiracy here? Is it the environmentalists trying to keep this "dirty" fuel out of our hands?
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Edmunds calculates maintenance in the True Cost to Own.

    Just comparing some '06 Jetta's against each other, I don't see any advantage.

    TDI 4dr Sedan w/Manual
    Average Cost per Mile* $0.50
    link

    2.0T 4dr Sedan w/Manual
    Average Cost per Mile* $0.50
    link

    2.5 4dr Sedan w/Manual
    Average Cost per Mile* $0.45
    link

    * This is a 5-year estimate (based on 15,000 miles per year). The automatic styles seem to be a penny or so cheaper to own and operate.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    Is it the environmentalists trying to keep this "dirty" fuel out of our hands?

    No it is the Dirty Environmentalist in the government on the payroll of the oil companies. :shades:
    Gas is the byproduct in the refining process they want to get rid of. Diesel will be in short supply until they add more refining capacity. With a glut of gas there is no real urgency to sell more diesel.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    I think this is a common red herring but it's not a "problem" for an engine designed to run at higher rpms to do so. It may be a problem for you as a driver but it's not a design issue. Otherwise Honda would have folded decades ago.
    ****

    No, the issue was smoothness and a nice ride. If the engine has to rev to get its power, then that means it needs many gears(problem prone and expensive to fix mega-speed automatic) or has to rev to where most Americans think it's noisy.

    A modern turbo-diesel is quiet, refined, shifts less, and generally is better in traffic and normal daily driving. They have done great things with the technology in Europe and it's nothing like what Americans remember. Though, to be honest, I love the sound of an old 4 cylinder 1970s Mercedes diesel... Like a small tractor and just as anti-yuppie at the same time...
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Everything I see in all the reviews says that 6 and 7 speed transmissions are a feature, not a bug. :)
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    My initial impression of the Mercedes 7 speed in the GL320 CDI I drove was negative. I did not like the way it downshifted when I let off the accelerator. I like to feel more like I am coasting and not using the engine to slow me down. If I am going down a steep hill I prefer to downshift myself to use the engine braking feature. I plan to drive another Mercedes diesel after I test drive the X5 diesel. Maybe I will get around to it next week.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,826
    Thanks for the FYI. I will be sure to pose the question when I test drive the BMW 335 D for the second time. On the 2009 BMW 335D accelerator let off (6 speed automatic triptronic) I did not feel the slight engine braking the 5 speed manual VW Jetta gives.

    On the VW (03 5 speed manual anyway) as most folks probably do not know, the system is a so called "drive by wire" system. One spin off: a coasting or no fuel draw situation, does NOT have the engine compression of older diesels. It does result in better overall mpg due to no fuel draw conditions (on longer grade descents). I would imagine the same is true for automatics (to a lesser degree)
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,826
    I am not sure what the labeling "common red herring" you are referring, but I agree with Plekto. I do so comparing the Honda, Corvette and Jetta TDI. How the 2009 BMW 335 D with 425 # ft of torque accelerates, FULLY illustrates what Pletko is saying. The TDI vs gassers does also but at 155 # ft of torque is not as dramatic as 425 # ft of torque.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    It is amazing how that varies. In my little WI town, when I last filled up, RUG was $1.80 and premium diesel was $2.19. Your difference is $1.10 and ours is 39 cents. And WI has the second highest state fuel tax in the nation.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,826
    Left Coast snap shot RUG $ 1.81, D2 $ 2.25 difference .44 cents.
  • bobny57bobny57 Posts: 30
    Gary,

    Thanks for your response. Here's some follow up questions:

    Doesn't diesel fuel come first in the refining process. Doesn't it take another step in the refining process to obtain our gasoline? If so, why is diesel more expensive?

    If 80% of Europe's passenger cars are diesels doesn't that indicate that diesel is pretty efficient? Those folks pay huge taxes on their fuel so they are hyper sensitive to price.

    Is there still an environmental downside to diesel that I'm missing?

    Bob
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    There is not enough refining capacity now to increase diesel fuel output, so the market demands a higher price for a scarcer product. Refineries cannot turn on a dime. They are refining what they are set up to do, and so it doesn't matter if refining diesel is actually a less complex process.

    And even though diesel cars have not taken off here, we still have plenty of pickups, trucks and buses using it. Not only that, but diesel cars have taken off and taken over in Europe and Asia. Thus there are other buyers clammering for the insufficient diesel fuel that is made in this country (relatively speaking). On top of that, the fuel tax structure in this country (unlike other countries where diesel has a clear tax advantage over gasoline) is biased toward gasoline.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    You have pretty much covered the bases. Last I heard we are getting gasoline from the UK as it is surplus. Most people do not realize that 100 years ago gasoline was dumped as a useless byproduct from producing diesel fuel. JD Rockefeller converted a Ford to run on the useless stuff and the rest is history. Henry Ford was adamant that his cars should run on pure alcohol. Diesel is now and always has been a superior fuel for internal combustion engines. I will avoid all the theories. I will just say the EU is way ahead of US on conserving fossil fuel with their 50% plus diesel cars and small PU Trucks.

    While on a trip to the mountains. We ran into a couple from British Columbia. They were driving a Mercedes B200. The guy told me it is the best car he has ever owned. It was a nice rig. Not available in the USA of course. With the diesel engine in the UK it is rated 62.8 MPG highway, that being 52.3 MPG US. You have to ask yourself if our EPA and CARB are really concerned about fossil fuel usage. If so why do they not allow so many great small cars that get super mileage.

    For you Mini-Cooper diesel fans. The UK version gets 80 MPG highway. That would be a lousy 67 MPG on our diesel in the US.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,826
    ..."Last I heard we are getting gasoline from the UK as it is surplus. "...

    It is hard to be less dependent on "foreign" oil, when we knowingly and willingly continue to ....and, and, and.... IMPORT MORE FOREIGN oil ;)

    I just got off a second test drive of the new 2009 BMW 335 D TWIN turbo diesel with 425 # ft of (monster) torque . While it DOES get 36 mpg, which is more than most folks get with the (gasser) Honda Civic economy leader, it is still a fuel guzzler compared to the pantheon of available European diesel models (as per Gagrice's above post). Still, I'd love to run this twin turbo beast in the Rocky Mountains @ 4000 to 7000 ft altitude and above WOW !! It is a stormer at sea level. As most folks will attest 425 # ft of torque exceeds MANY so called super car metrics!!! ??? Pretty heady stuff for a 3 series BMW !!! The MB 320/350 diesel has a "MERE" 369 # ft of torque as I remember.

    So it is easy to conclude that 10-20 miles per gal is not only desireable, it is written into the current laws. Certainly the UAW wrote life time contracts around it. It is important enough to receive Congressional bail out monies.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    Yay. Another true believer... :)

    No, seriously. Turbo diesels are great for daily driving. Honestly 95% of the time, other than a freeway on ramp for a few seconds before the light at the end or the slow guy in the lane you have to merge into ruins your fun, people are doing 10-40mph quick speed changes. You don't have the room to wind the car up, nor do you have the speed limits that allow it. Torque is a huge thing in such a situation as long as the vehicle isn't geared like a tractor.

    That BMW, btw - yes, it pulls like its rear end is on fire. Immediate power with a sense of extreme urgency at pretty much any speed. Gong 25mph and want to go 45? Done. Already wound up and ready to push you in your seat like a typical 911 used to do. Not quite as quickly, mind you, but 25-45mph in 2-3 seconds is quite fast enough for most people's needs. No whining, no down shifting like crazy. It just happens. Like a big V8 in the 70s.

    Remember them? 120-140HP but wicked torque curves. They weren't very quick, but man they felt like you were really driving a car and not some tin can.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    No whining, no down shifting like crazy. It just happens. Like a big V8 in the 70s

    That is what I am talking about. I love driving the back highways in San Diego and Southern CA. Up and down and with hairpins and lots of turns. Aside from an old 1978 Porsche 911 my Passat TDI was the most fun to drive those roads. Problem is when I get to the desert and want to go down a sandy wash, it is too low to the ground. In search of the perfect vehicle. I am afraid if I go test drive the new X5 35d I will be compelled to plunk down more cash than I really should. I have talked to half a dozen people that own the X5. They all say it is the best handling SUV on the market. Not many cars handle better. The only complaint is the V6 is somewhat under powered. The diesel X5 takes care of that with 200 more ft lbs of torque than the V6 and quicker to 60 MPH than the V8. I will keep you all posted when I take one for a spin.
  • alltorquealltorque Posts: 535
    Apologies for delay in response...........been doing other things.

    Current prices in my locality are :

    Regular Unleaded Petrol : £0.849 per litre (RUG)

    Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel : £0.959 per litre (ULSD)

    If my math is correct that equates to, (at current £/$ exrate) :

    RUG : $4.93 per US Gall

    ULSD : $5,57 per US Gall

    That's close on a 13% differential. Some parts of EU have ULSD marginally cheaper than RUG but most are dearer, (AFAIK), it's a tax thing. Yes, it hurts but it's not difficult to see why diesels are so popular - just on fuel cost per mile :

    Examples, all figure are "Combined" mpg for Imp Galls :

    Subaru Legacy : 2.0R = 32.8 vs 2.0TD = 48.7

    Volvo C30 : 2.0 = 38.2 vs 2.0D = 49.6 but 1.6D = 57.6

    Toyota Yaris : 1.3 VVT = 47.1 vs 1.4D = 62.8

    BMW : 335i = 31.0 vs 335D (Auto) = 42.2

    I've tried to match like-for-like as closely as possible. In all examples, the gassers are listed first, (but you'll have figured that out).
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,826
    I realize there are a few translations and the room for some conversion error, butdiesel comes into its own when the fuel prices are higher (per your example) So really the question is to the US market, how long do you think fuel prices will remain LOW (relative to both 4. gal AND places like where Altorque fuels?

    Here is an interesting issue being discussed in the US. Since the price is so "low" there is FED Congressional as well as State Congressional discussion on raising the fuel tax up to 1.00 per gal :lemon: So given 50 mpg vs 22 mpg (defacto fleet mpg) that is .02 cents vs .04545 cents per gal. ) the taxation will be 227% higher on the defacto fleet mpg average!?
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Thanks! Gas popped a dime here to $1.69 for regular, while diesel went down to $2.39 (a twenty cent drop). That's the cheapest I recall seeing diesel in a year or more.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    I filled up my tractor can with diesel today. It was $2.39 for shell diesel. Regular was up to $1.99. ARCO is at $1.89. Not sure if it will come down or not. I hope I don't miss the window of opportunity on buying my dream X5 diesel. :shades:

    The sad part is, I really like driving the Sequoia. Went up into the mountains for a few days. Handles well. Just cannot get much better than 16 MPG with this crappy CA gas. The electronics in the Toyota suck. It is a good thing I knew the way to my destination. That NAV is near worthless. CD player skips on smooth highways. Not what you should get in a $50k vehicle.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    Well that was 7 good reasons to buy a new Diesel car. You got some ugly iron back there on the other coast. Here is what you still see running around wishing they had a diesel engine running on veggie oil.

    http://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/cto/987200403.html
  • bumpybumpy Posts: 4,435
    Ha. I put it in the wrong topic. I did find this, though.

    http://norfolk.craigslist.org/cto/986486825.html
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    If you don't want to spend a lot of money on your diesel ride, these still look good.

    http://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/cto/987172182.html

    http://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/cto/986593236.html

    http://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/cto/982543005.html

    Must be 30 old MB diesels in San Diego for sale
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    No problem, I love Craigslist. I have at least a dozen items listed around the country at any given time. I check every day for a good buy on a diesel Beetle that my wife wants for a runabout. Has to be 2006 with the DSG in green or yellow. Not too picky is she?
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    Yikes, they were still carbureted in '83! That's a big turn-off. Luckily, diesel benzes were available most of the way through the 80s, right? Into the 90s as well, or not? They must have been fuel injected by the late 80s, I would assume.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • fintailfintail Posts: 50,808
    I didn't see a note about a carb. The last carb MB sold in the US, IIRC, was the 70s W116 280S, until around MY 1975 or so. Then all FI or diesel.

    A W126 turbodiesel (300SD) would be a good car, and if you find a 1984-85 model there's a decent chance it will even have an airbag. The W123s aren't bad either, very slow if not turbo...but I have an attraction to the W126.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    Just when I least expect to see you pop in: Then this may not be a bad buy?

    http://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/cto/986269181.html

    Most of the 300sd models are 82-83'
  • alltorquealltorque Posts: 535
    Read on the front page of my newspaper this morning that Exxon, (Exxonmobil), are now calling for higher taxes on fuel to fight GW/CC whatever. Don't know what caused the sudden volte-face but guess it's to do with money. However, with Exxonmobil on-side and a new Democrat POTUS on the way I guess the end result will likely be predictable for you folks..............so diesel will begin to make real sense.

    Of course, if our Commisar Brown takes the hint and raises fuel taxes even more then I may be on here asking for the odd food parcel. That's "odd" as in occasional, not weird, by the way.
  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    I meant to post that link somewhere yesterday and spaced it out. I think ExxonMobile prefers a taxing scheme to a cap and trade scheme.

    But they really prefer neither.

    Exxon chief backs carbon tax (Guardian)
  • fintailfintail Posts: 50,808
    That one doesn't look bad, save for the chrome wheelarch trim which sometimes hides problems. Just look for maintenance records and make sure the transmission is sound. MB enthusiasts tend to be good record keepers, and an enthusiast owned car is usually best. A nice W126 is a lot of car for the money.

    That 300SD was sold from 81-85. There was a W116 300SD that is pretty rare, only sold here in 79 and 80 I believe. The post 85 diesel S-class tended to be a little more problematic. And of course now we have a diesel hybrid S on the horizon.

    Onto the thread topic...it would take a big raise for me to buy a new diesel car. I "built my own" 335d and it was in the mid 50s! That's too much.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    What you want is a 4 cylinder diesel with injection and a manual gearbox. These get 35-40mpg on the highway. The others maybe 25-30 - no better than an early 90s Buick/Chevrolet with the 3800 in it.

    *Note - these are expected highway figures*
    300D - Maybe 25mpg, tops. 15-20 city. No, honest.

    240D - About 30mpg. Costly to repair. Kind of a letdown when you consider cars like a modern Civic. People claim they get 40mpg... They don't.

    220D - About 30-35mpg highway with a light foot. OK in town. About 25mpg average.

    190Dc - 35mpg, easy. Smart people get the 1960s "Fintail" 190D instead of the older "Ponton" 190D.. 31mpg average. +2-3 mpg without air conditioning. (pattern based upon engine size should be clear - heh) 0-60 in 30 seconds. 75 mph top speed. 60-65mph practical top speed.

    Note - the same era 200D does 0-60 in 25 seconds and has 80mph top speed. 28mpg. It's a lot better for not much less fuel economy. These are highly prized commuting gems, actually, as they keep up with traffic and drive like a more modern car. Same car, just larger engine designed for the U.S. market/highways. Bit taller gearing and bit more torque. Practical top speed is exactly 65mph as well.

    180Dc (these are 1950s era - close to 45mpg highway) 40-48HP, though, and close to 40 second 0-60 times. But they DO get 6.3l/100km combined(average). That's 37mpg. I've seen these do nearly 45-50 mpg with careful driving. But they really ARE dangerously slow and not good for modern highways. 70 mph top speed(gearing maximum!). Practical is 55mph on level ground.

    Just get a 190D or 200D instead.

    You can pick these up for next to nothing, and there's precious little to actually break as well, since there's not a single piece of electronics anywhere. It really IS a tractor engine stuffed into a car. :P

    http://blogs.trucktrend.com/6276377/suvs/mt-takes-old-tech-to-bluetec-mercedes-b- - - - enz-diesel-across-america-tour/index.html
    A neat article. He got 40mpg combined out of it.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,826
    How do you like your 2009 BMW 335 D?
  • fintailfintail Posts: 50,808
    Oh, I don't have one, I built one on the website, and was astonished at the price.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 50,808
    Diesel fintail owners can be pretty fanatical. I know of a really pristine 190 that went for over 10K.

    Good article, that was fun.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    190Dc - 35mpg, easy. 0-60 in 30 seconds.

    Note - the same era 200D does 0-60 in 25 seconds and has 80mph top speed. 28mpg.


    Funny thig is, if they built a few diesels with this type of acceleration today, they would probably make 100 mpg easy. Too bad they won't do it.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • bumpybumpy Posts: 4,435
    Once you get back to those '60s 190 and 200Ds, you're probably better off with the '80s 190D manual. They're faster, not appreciably smaller, and get somewhat better mileage. Tricky part is finding one that's not all miled up, beat up, or both.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    Ah - I forgot about them. The more modern 190Ds are also good. But hard to find as you noted.

    http://www.kenrockwell.com/190d/index.htm
    30-35mpg. Acceptable as an alternative to a typical compact car. Anything with a larger engine, though, is going to be not very thrifty.

    Oh, and they have made a 30-40 second 0-60 time TDI already. The VW 1 liter car.
    Okay, it gets 210MPG, not 100... heh.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    It looks like VW will bring a 3.0L TDI Touareg to the USA this Spring. VW is getting the jump on the Domestics and Japanese. Diesel is the only way to go for good mileage in a heavy SUV. The hybrid SUVs are not much good off road and cannot tow much. I say bring em on. Never too many choices.

    http://www.vw.com/touaregtdi/en/us/
  • How are these TDI in the winter? I was up north in Wisconsin and didn't see a single Jetta TDI or BMW 335ix for that matter. Are diesels and turbos a bad idea for us people living in the northern states?
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    The Arctic is a much colder place than Wisconsin. You will not find a gas truck in the Arctic. ALL DIESEL, mostly Ford with a few GM and in 25 years up there I only saw One Dodge PU truck. Ford has 3 warranty places. Makes them the truck of choice.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    This is my 7th winter in Wisconsin with my 2003 TDI (bought in 2002). Never had a problem getting going, even with the real temp (not wind chill) more than 20 below 0 F.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,726
    Sure, diesels are practical. But fun? Volkswagen sets out to prove the two ideas are not mutually exclusive with the Concept BlueSport unveiled here today.

    Equipped with VW's signature TDI clean diesel engine, the midengine roadster concept has an average fuel consumption of 42 mpg, or 50 mpg on the highway. In theory, the roadster can go 710 miles between fill-ups while meeting emissions standards in all 50 states.


    http://www.autonews.com/article/20090111/ANA02/901119989/1115
    (registration link)

    If this ever makes it to the States, it would be the first fun-to-drive diesel car sold here, even as we await the first fun-to-drive hybrid car, which looks like it will be the Honda CRZ, debuting next year. Of course, the CRZ hybrid will make better mileage than the Civic hybrid sedan it shares parts with, and that model can be had for $22K and ALREADY makes an average fuel consumption of 42 mpg. The CRZ is promised to start under $20K, and will probably match the VW TDI roadster for average and highway fuel economy. I think odds are that the Honda will find more buyers than the VW, as people are getting more used to hybrids all the time while diesels cannot fully shake off their bad rep from the 80s.

    As hybrids expand, the question remains: will there be enough potential diesel car buyers to make it worth it for automakers to invest in making more available?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • steverstever Posts: 52,462
    Clean diesel - is that like clean coal? :P

    Good question about having enough potential buyers to justify selling it in North America. Hybrid sales have crashed along with the price of gasoline. But the diesel tech shouldn't be as expensive to implement as the hybrid stuff I'm guessing, so maybe VW could price it right.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,826
    Given the twisted logic and catch 22's syllogisms, unfortunately MORE customers have to actually BUY diesels (US market) to get the potentially "other oem's" to RISK bringing more diesel models to (US) market here.

    VW (one of the standard bearers) has and will continue to benefit; and in fact is constructing a TN plant to put out @ least 1 US made diesel model. This is not to say they did not have to suffer along the way (multi million to billion $ losses), due to the over whelming bias AGAINST D2 passenger cars. (less than 1/5 of 1% of the passenger vehicle fleet ( of 254.1 M) is D2 )

    So I am sure VW finds itself in a catch 22 situation. They want diesel models to take off, but want NO real competition!? VW will probably TRY to make as much hay as they can while the D2 issues are in the so called "perfect storm" scenario.

    Almost all the oem's that have signalled an interest in bringing D2 passenger cars have let their schedules slip.

    2009 VW TDI's are really the only game in town. BMW is less than 5 per dealership to must order. I called one BMW dealership to inquire and they flat said ZERO inventory, but please come down (see the gassers in stock) to order a D2 BMW 335 D twin turbo. A day later, they had located one from another dealership and had it delivered and I was able to demo; first customer test miles.
  • Where are you in Wisconsin? Did you find driving the TDI adequate or would an all-wheel-drive be a better choice? We are moving to Wisconsin and my wife wanted an all-wheel-drive vehicle. But if the new Jetta TDI is fine for winter driving up there with winter or all-season tires then I would rather get the TDI. Thank you all for your assistance.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,450
    VW says they are bringing the Touareg with V6 TDI to states this Spring. It is one heck of a 4 wheel drive vehicle. If money is no object go for the BMW X5 35diesel. It will be the top of the line for awhile in the all wheel drive market.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,826
    Given ..."At 221 hp and 407 lb-ft of torque, it should offer plenty of performance while still getting EPA mileage ratings of 17 mpg city/ 25 mpg highway."...

    It will be interesting what the actual real world mpg will be. I think anything over 25 mpg ( real world 25-32 mpg) will make the V6 Touareg a hit !

    link title
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,437
    The TDI has been fine in two of the worst winters in decades. Don't forget, the Jetta TDI comes with traction control and stability control. I have AWD on another vehicle, but don't find it that much more useful...you still have to go slow, as it does not help you stop any better. The stability control will warn you and take action if there is slip. BTW I have a steep driveway. If you get two feet of snow, stay off the highways until some clearing has occurred. Otherwise, I have moved along in several inches of snow.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,826
    The answer is NO turbo diesel premium !!! ;)

    Now that we are on a roll, D2 cheaper than RUG to PUG.

    Anything less than that and you can rest assured the "system" is NOT serious about the actual passenger car percentage switch to so called "alternative fuel".
This discussion has been closed.