What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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Comments

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    It's really more of a problem than appears on paper. Americans do not like diesel engines in passenger cars, I don't believe. They tend to regard them as a "low image" car, or, if stuffed into a luxury sedan, a "curiosity", as in "now why would anyone want to do that?"

    Ironically you are right in that putting diesels into luxury sedans and SUVs is putting them into the hands of people who don't need to conserve fuel. $20-$30 bucks extra a week for gas means nothing.

    And the people who really could use a diesel's economy in order to meet the family budget either cannot afford a new diesel (because "new" is the only way most of them will ever see one) or don't wish to suffer the image issue regardless of their financial station.

    This is all a lot trickier than it appears on the surface, IMO.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Indeed, but that is what happens when you put the issues into operative terms. The math is the true truth (dont say this three times fast) as it were.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    Well.....I don't know what happens. :confuse:

    Perhaps we should ask the question:

    Who is, in 2009, a sure-fire diesel car buyer in America anyway? What does he/she look like demographically? Can I picture him/her walking into a showroom?

    I tried this thought exercise and it's all very hazy. :P
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Well the obvious ones to ask are the diesel car dealerships. :) I am led to believe the diesels models cycle through the system far faster than a like gasser model.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    My guess would be male academic/intellectual/engineer type, given the present offerings, which are pretty expensive.

    In other words, someone who has done a lot of thinking to justify buying one.

    Actually I'd be a possible buyer, if I could purchase a turbo diesel MINI Clubman under $20K out the door. I'd probably buy that tomorrow.

    But I won't be buying that tomorrow because there isn't one in America, and if there was, it would cost $30,000.

    I'm not spending $30K to save $600 a year in gas over my Subaru. (at $2 a gallon).

    Now if gas were $10 a gallon, I'd think about it because that's $3,000 bucks a year which is just about what car payments would be if I put a hefty down on a $30K car.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Probably why it appeals to a "Marin County" type? :shades:

    I have 112,000 miles on one; enough to know I want another turbo diesel? ;) I also realize for the overwhelming majority of folks, a diesel will be a "leap".

    Now I have run up 250,000 miles each on 2 gassers so naturally, I have a slightly higher expectation on the diesel. It continues to amaze me that this thing can cruise at 85/90 mph, climb the grapevine hill and fuel in Santa Monica and give 50 mpg !! So I slow to 75 mph and get 59 mpg!!??? Go figure ! ;)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    I used to live in Sausalito, and I couldn't even find diesel fuel nearby. I had to drive to Corte Madera. I asked the local Shell station if they'd install some and they laughed at me. "We aren't a truck stop" was the answer.

    But yeah, the old "buy a Volvo, save the world, and install an $80,000 slate shower in the meantime" crowd.

    I'll never forget the SF Chronicle reporter who went to a "Save the Redwoods" party in Marin, that took place on....you guessed it... a redwood deck! :P
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    "if I could purchase a turbo diesel MINI Clubman under $20K out the door"

    A close relative got the above in a gasser !!! According to him they didnt come off MSRP and IT was the last one they had (Edmunds.com indicates 20,200 MSRP is for a non turbo CLUBman) . A TDI would be HOT !!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    Really? That's a GREAT price. I need to check that out.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaMember Posts: 12,726
    if diesels were advertised to make the kind of mileage ruking's does, there would be more interest? They sold a heck of a lot of Civics this year just based on mileage, and folks are aware now that gas prices are volatile and can hit them where it hurts.

    What is your car, ruking? Is it the previous model Jetta/Beetle/Passat/Golf with the 90 hp diesel?

    Oh, and count me in for a diesel Clubman under $22 grand. I would go out today and get one of those if it were available.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    nippononly says, "Oh, and count me in for a diesel Clubman under $22 grand. I would go out today and get one of those if it were available. "

    Ditto that remark. I was tempted to buy even the gas version earlier this year.

    At $22K for the diesel ClubMan, it's a TOTAL no-brainer.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Yes, 2003 Jetta TDI.

    But then again... there is MORE POWER !!! AW AW AW !!!

    I just got done with app an hour in the rain with a 2009 BMW 335 D at the local BMW dealer!! MAN !!! 425 foot #'s of torque under foot is really something to behold. Before we started it had 14 miles on it. :surprise: It was this dealers first and only one so far.

    The sales man did a computer reading for a 33.5 mpg. I asked him what a gasser BMW 335 I gets and he just mentioned in passing 19/20!?
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Member Posts: 2,437
    My 2003 TDI as I have pointed out before consistently gets 50+ mpg overall in its seventh winter with me. Diesel sells for $2.18 around where I live (I know it can go much higher elsewhere), so I am pleased as punch with my fuel costs. My plan is to get it chipped in the spring, which should give it even better mileage as well as more power.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    You can't get both mileage and power out of a chip, though. You get one or the other. Is someone actually advertising such a claim or is this just your hope for it?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I am glad you posted. At times I truly believe reported D2 mpg is NOT believed by the majority of gasser readers who actually are open minded about D2 products. Indeed I would have dismissed my own 59 mpg @ 75 mph, if I did not do it over two fill ups on a 965 miles leg of a return trip. I really have to stress that all I was trying to do was keep the highest possible speed to avoid a customer service stop by 3 state, 5 car highway patrol wolf packs, and turn off the radar detector; as it was very annoying. I was NOT trying to maximize fuel economy. :shades: :lemon: BUT I'll take both to the bank as it were, no tickets and good fuel mileage.

    As for the chip and/or injectors upgrades, they do/can have a Dr Jekyll/Mr Hyde characters to them. IF you upgrade, the key to continued good mileage is to resist the temptation to get on it, and just let it ride episodically. The other issue is both these upgrades have the capability of emphasizing (now) weak links, aka V6 clutch upgrade. ;)
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    Actually, many folks who have "chipped" their VW diesel have reported BOTH additional power and better MPG. (if they dont use the additional power)
  • bpeeblesbpeebles Member Posts: 4,085
    Your append saddens me... you are a host here on edmunds yet you do not seem to understand the economics of COST PER MILE.

    You need to IGNORE the cost per gallon... it is nearly irrelivant.

    I have a spreadsheet tracking every drop of fuel run thru my 2003 TDI. The overall fuel cost per mile is $0.05 Again, this is OVERALL cost from day1 of ownership over 100,000 miles.... not just a spike or best. (The best is $0.03)

    There is not another vehicle sold in North America that can come close to that. Your example of a suberu at $2/gallon is still over $0.10 per mile which is DOUBLE the cost of what my diesel gets.

    I get over 55MPG on a highway trip in 85 degree weather with 4 passengers and the AC blasting. (and trunk full of luggage) This is over 750 miles per tank of fuel. Are you going to tell me that opposing 4 gasoline engine in your suberu can do that?

    Also, a diesel engine is designed to run over 300,000 miles. A suberu will have troubles getting 1/2 of that. Additionaly, a gasoline engine has more maintainace costs than diesel. For example, a diesel has no sparkplugs nor ignition system to mess with. Finally, a diesel engine recoups most of the initial cost at resale time.

    asically, most of your arguments are based on misunderstanding of the true costs involved.

    The good news is that suberu makes a diesel automobile. I would like to have a 4-wheel-drive diesel car for Vermont winters
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,457
    But you track the rest of your costs right?

    My spreadsheet includes purchase price, taxes, insurance, depreciation, etc.

    My minivan is running about .40 cents a mile to own and operate over a decade.

    Or you can use the True Cost to Own tool for average comparisons for cars made since '03.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    So? My cost is .07 a mile.

    True if you are a salesman or something this may matter, but for the average American driver, that .02 cents a mile advantage you have over 12,500 miles a year isn't anything to write home about.

    As for "designed to go 300,000 miles"....please, no disrespect intended, but that is simply not substantiated by any sound evidence. It is, as we say, an urban legend.

    And even if it WERE true--by god, let's say IT IS TRUE, a bare slim fractional number of American drivers take a car to that mileage.

    Why don't they?

    Various reasons, but one being that the rest of the car is not built to go 300,000 without falling to pieces or looking mighty shabby.

    I mean, I'm right with you about grounding the discussion back into the "real world", and yes, a Subaru will never achieve .05 cents a mile.

    The point is, does that even matter for most of us?
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    I mean, I'm right with you about grounding the discussion back into the "real world", and yes, a Subaru will never achieve .05 cents a mile.

    Here is my real world complaints about all the 4 banger gas cars I have seen and ridden in. They cannot keep up on the SoCA Interstate highways without down shifting and screaming up to over 4000 RPM. They are few and far between that can get 500 mile range on a tank of gas. Most of the V6 & V8 gas engines are not much better.

    If you compare the BMW X5 35d to the X5 V8 you will see that the diesel is more than 1/2 second faster 0-60 mph, and has 75 more ft lbs of torque at half the RPMs. The diesel will go at least 33% further on a gallon of fuel. And the TMV is $6000 less on the diesel X5.

    So what would be the downside to buying a BMW diesel? I got to get out and test drive them while the price of diesel is high.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaMember Posts: 12,726
    at $1.66/gallon, my Echo costs me $0.04/mile for gas. That's based on the 41.5 mpg lifetime average it has produced. And while I am only at 112K miles, it has yet to require a single repair. Some Echo owners have reported they are still chugging at mileages well in excess of 200K miles with no repairs to the engine. I would expect it to go 300K miles without major engine repairs, based on many gas Toyotas I have owned.

    If you include "purchase price, taxes, insurance, depreciation, etc.", I'm doing even better, as the Echo cost half the price of a Jetta diesel to buy new and is dirt cheap to insure. All of which is to say there's more than one way to skin a cat (ummm, is that how that old expression goes??!!).

    Now if they could get the Cooper Clubman a diesel that was as fun to drive as the gas model, made 60 mpg, and sold for $22K, I would probably jump on it. But what if the Fit were just as much fun to drive for $6K less, and the only difference was the fuel economy? Well, then the Fit would be my choice.

    I guess the bottom line is I am waiting for some truly frugal, inexpensive diesel choices to enter the market, while still driving better than a Prius. That and gas at $3+ per gallon again would pull diesel buyers into the market. Maybe.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJMember Posts: 3,516
    Ford builds the Interceptor sedan concept from a couple years ago (but please make the glass taller - I'm sick and tired of these gunslit windows)
    image

    This would most likely use the EcoBoost V6 if produced, but if they add...
    - a 3.0-3.5 liter 60° V6 diesel, 225-250 hp, 375-400 lb-ft
    - an automated manual trans
    - AWD
    ...I might be talked out of trucks. Otherwise, I'll stick with my Cummins-powered Dodge Ram.

    kcram - Pickups/Wagons Host
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,457
    Well, if $1.66 is the baseline, then my Subaru is around 6 cents a gallon. I just track miles and gallons, not price, so the real number over the last 5 years is closer to .10 cents a mile. I get about 21mpg combined mpg on it, which would run closer to .08 cents, but it comes out better on my spreadsheet.

    Don't bet the farm on my math skills though. :)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    I'd say the only downside to buying a 335D is the depreciation you'll probably suffer if you want out in a couple of years. With an X5, this might not be a factor. A diesel BMW sedan is an odd duck, to say the least.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Here is my real world complaints about all the 4 banger gas cars I have seen and ridden in. They cannot keep up on the SoCA Interstate highways without down shifting and screaming up to over 4000 RPM. They are few and far between that can get 500 mile range on a tank of gas. Most of the V6 & V8 gas engines are not much better.
    ****

    Well, that's exactly the problem with gasoline engines. To develop maximum HP, they need to scream, as maximum torque isn't produced until you're approaching red line. JUst the nature of the beast.

    Diesels, OTOH, have loads more torque so they can get away with lower RPMs and shift a lot less often. Torque is huge in passing times and roll-on acceleration as well.

    BTW, Fifth Gear(U.K. auto show) recently tested several cars and the closest they could get, even flogging the cars hard, was still 20% slower than the listed 0-60 times! They couldn't even get the Ariel Atom under 4 seconds, despite slamming the clutch hard and wringing the hell out of it.

    The Corvette, for instance, is designed to withstand 100 full throttle 0-60 launches before the engine and transmission break. Most cars are closer to half that many. Nobody sane drives like that except for auto testers and people doing drag racing. So 0-60 times are often twice as fast as listed in actual traffic.

    This is another advantage to torque over horsepower. Since the cars all don't GO 0-60 in under 10-15 seconds in actual traffic, smoothness, lack of shifting, and the feeling of how hard the engine pulls you along matter far more. Of course, I'm kind of preaching to the choir here. Heh. Modern diesels completely destroy gasoline powered designs of most vehicles other than the top-end cars - mostly extreme sport sedans and exotics and the like, which are kind moot in actual real life driving. (ie - Porsche is great, but you hit 65mph in 2nd or 3rd gear and then your fun is over)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,457
    I think this is a common red herring but it's not a "problem" for an engine designed to run at higher rpms to do so. It may be a problem for you as a driver but it's not a design issue. Otherwise Honda would have folded decades ago.

    It would be nice to see more emphasis placed on torque instead of 0 to 60 in the car reviews.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    iI you are all excited about YOUR Echo, I would imagine you'd be beside yourself in a TDI ECHO !!! You would not have to make an apples to oranges comparison with a Jetta.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Actually this angle interests me. Most of it will be projection for app 1 year to 3 years. It will be interesting to see if the BMW 335 D will be worth more than the BMW 335 I.

    The Jetta TDI has exceeded any of my projections and expectations. I know that Jetta's (gassers) and for sure BMW gassers drop like boulders in the depreciation department. The TDI for much of its early life could sell for more than I paid. The so called premium @ the time if I remember correctly was app 246. However in the Jetta's case (according to Edmunds.com)the TDI @ 6 years old is worth a min of 3,300 more than a like model/mileage/condition 1.8T.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaMember Posts: 12,726
    Exactly! Why won't they do it? The proposed Clubman diesel, which actually DOES come in a diesel trim across the pond, is the closest thing I have heard yet.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    This would be easy for you to do an apples to apples comparison. So for example given the same RATIOs on like models : VW jetta is 29 mpg (gasser)is to (49 mpg D2), as your Echo (gasser) 41.5 mpg is to X mpg for a turbo diesel Echo.
  • alltorquealltorque Member Posts: 535
    A diesel BMW sedan is an odd duck, to say the least.

    Over here, in Europe, the diesel versions of BMW saloons, (sedans), are the preferred options. real-world performance is much the same; particularly mid-range acceleration, (and they'll more than keep up with any traffic flows), fuel economy is better, the drive is less frenetic, (higher torque will pull longer gear ratios for fewer changes), and resale values hold up far better, (even outweighing the slightly higher new premium). The M3 and M5 gassers are, of course, still purchased for their outright performance and "showoffability". ;) (as are the Audi RS4's and RS6's).

    Situation is much the same with other marques also, where there are comparable gasser and diesel versions available. Indeed, the factors given above put me into the driving seat of a Volvo S60 D5 rather than its T5 stable mate. Volvo has obviously now recognised this and the current S60 is only available with 2.0T/178bhp/177lbft gasser or 2.4D/163bhp/251lbft or D5/185bhp/295lbft diesels. The biggest sellers in the Volvo XC90, Audi Q7 and even the BMW 6-series and Audi A6's and A8's are the diesel variants, (from my observations, at least). There again, Europe has had diesels for a long time, together with ULSD and high fuel prices, (i.e. tax loading).

    In the real world a diesel saloon is far from being an odd duck, whatever the marque...................but if you can't try 'em & buy 'em they must seem like an odd concept. :)
  • tbattagliatbattaglia Member Posts: 2
    I have a 3.2 liter aluminum V-6 Isuzu engine.After overheating the engine due to a freeze plug blowing out, I had to rebuild the engine. Since then, a small crack either in the heads, or the block has resulted in exhaust gas being forced into the cooling system. There is a problem with the heat burning the new head gasket between two of the cylinders, resulting in exhaust gas being forced into the cooling system.
    I have been recommended a product called "Heal a Seal" which claims to be able to seal such a crack permanently. Has anyone ever heard of, or used this product?
    It would be very costly to rebuild the engine or replace the engine again.
    Please advise,
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Member Posts: 2,437
    I know you mean well, but sometimes your responses are shot from the hip without any research at all. Of course it seems to make sense that if you get more power, you lose mpg. However, a properly chipped TDI (for example RocketChip) will give you better mileage when driving the same way as you did pre-chip. As long as you are not always dipping into that extra oomph, the engine post-chip is working a bit more efficiently to do the same thing. All my TDI acquaintances who have chipped report even better mileage on long trips. BTW, have already upgraded my clutch.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaMember Posts: 12,726
    C&D has a comparo of 4 hybrid midsize sedans, including the new Fusion which did outstandingly. In it they have a half-page comparison between hybrid and diesel, and their conclusion is that at the time they wrote the article, hybrid was the clear winner because the price of diesel was (and still is today) so much higher than regular unleaded.

    While people are writing articles like that, diesel passenger cars will have a hard time getting off the ground I think.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    ..."All my TDI acquaintances who have chipped report even better mileage on long trips. BTW, have already upgraded my clutch. "...

    If it were me, I'd do the injectors upgrade first, then the chip. I believe the Rocket Chip guy that does the traveling local GTG's, and the "custom" tuning is really the ticket Charlie (Kerma)!! also does the circuit and I have met both of them at a few GTG's. If not, both offer quick turn Fed Ex type services, so your car is down the minimum amount of time.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,457
    What's the price differential between diesel and petrol running these days in your world?

    Still about a buck difference between RUG and diesel here in Boise.
  • altair4altair4 Member Posts: 1,469
    You wrote:
    Your append saddens me... you are a host here on edmunds yet you do not seem to understand the economics of COST PER MILE.

    You need to IGNORE the cost per gallon... it is nearly irrelivant.

    I have a spreadsheet tracking every drop of fuel run thru my 2003 TDI. The overall fuel cost per mile is $0.05 Again, this is OVERALL cost from day1 of ownership over 100,000 miles.... not just a spike or best. (The best is $0.03)


    You are correct; it's all about cost per mile, not cost per gallon.

    I have almost 60K on my '03 Passat. I run only the recommended premium fuel through it and have kept track of all of my expenses as well:

    Since 11/2002 through today, fuel is costing me $0.111 per mile, with my personal best being $0.058 per mile. Worst was $0.19 per mile, when gas reached $4.10 per gallon with a heavy city bias.

    Maintenance, for the same date range, is at $0.065 per mile, excluding oil changes. Tires are killing my average, being on my fourth set. Tires account for $0.028 per mile.

    Oil changes, all done within the 5,000 mile recommended OCI, is at $0.011.

    Overall, my car costs $0.186 per mile.

    I wished I could recreate my entire spreadsheet with diesel pricing. But looking at my most recent gas purchase - I drove 296.1 miles at 21.22 MPG, rendering a per mile cost of $0.092. Using the EPA posted urban mileage for the TDI Jetta of 29 MPG and the pump cost of $2.699 per gallon, then the cost would have been $0.093, or a bit more than the PUG cost. If one would use the AMCI urban value of 38 MPG that VWoA touts, then the cost would have been $0.071 per mile. At my 10,000 miles a year, that's anual savings of $220 (keeping a whole lot of assumptions in place!). I keep a car ten years, so $2,200.

    I still keep coming around to the idea of buying a diesel Jetta wagon to replace my wife's Accord. She, on the other hand, is more interested in an Oddy minivan. What I love to see is a minivan with a TDI engine. VWoA, you are missing your niche! Give me a minivan that gets my current mileage of 21 city and 32 highway, and you'll have me signing up.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    I'm not following you here, sorry.

    A chip can't increase power and mileage across the board at the same time. When the dyno shows the HP above stock, the fuel/air analyzer will show the mileage below stock.

    You can for instance get a remarkable 26 mpg on a new Corvette, but you will be [non-permissible content removed]-footing in 6th gear at 1800 rpm. The HP of the Corvette is IN THERE all right, but you will pay for it in fuel consumption.

    Some chips are great, some are bogus, but none defy the laws of physics that I'm aware of.

    RE: The "odd duck" 335D.

    You are talking about Europe. That's whole different ball game for a diesel passenger car. They have lower diesel prices vs. gas prices, they have a long tradition of diesel passenger car use, and they LIKE diesel cars.

    None of the above apply to the USA (as of yet).

    RE: Passat --- gas Passats have good resale, too. The TDI is a great little car but really, the reason the resale is high is because of supply vs. demand, not because it's a diesel per se.

    There aren't that many out there, and there are just a few more buyers than sellers apparently.

    This is not the same as thinking that if you increased the supply dramatically, you'd get a dramatic increase in diesel buyers. All you'd do is satisfy those few who still want them but can't find 'em right now.

    I think we're all beating the same dead horse. Diesel cars are not going to make a dent in the US market until a) their price goes down b) their quality goes up and c) diesel fuel prices drop.

    Europe as already achieved these things. They have great little affordable diesel hatches and they can save a lot of money using diesel fuel (except maybe in parts of UK, etc.--or so I'm told).
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Member Posts: 2,437
    I see you are not following, but I am not talking defying any laws of physics. The TDIs are capable of both better mileage and power than the way the are shipped here (and this is proven by the VW factory choices available in Europe that cannot be bought here for a lot of complicated reasons). Another way to look at it (and using gassers as an example): the Ford Ecoboost gets better mileage than the non-ecoboost-lesser hp V6 on which it is based. This is just fact. It is true in many cases that the the next size up engine actually gets better mileage than the lower hp base V6 engine (some years of the Ford Ranger this occurred).

    In any event, talk to those who have gotten RocketChipped before you assert your royal "a chip cannot increase mileage and hp at the same time." Of course it can, but it doesn't have to. Depends on the application, how well matched to the vehicle and how that vehicle is driven. I already know that if I chip my car and then drive mostly with a heavy foot, my mileage will suffer. For me, the extra hp and torque would only be there for those odd occasions where a little more oomph would be useful. In the meantime, where diesels do best mileage-wise (as well as Corvettes in sixth gear) is where I will see an actual mpg increase: steady highway speeds.

    You make some very good points about Americans, diesels and price v. availability. TDI prices ARE high because there aren't that many takers in the scheme of things--and those of us who are takers have to take what we get (and that includes both higher initial cost and much higher resale). But you also throw in the kitchen sink with blanket statements about chips. TDI guys are a very dedicated lot and much has been learned through the regional meets, trial and error, blogging, sharing, keeping logs. It may not interest you and that's fine, but before you say you know better about chips than those who manufacture and use them, at least take a look at the data.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I think you two are just on the tip of converging. Allow me to push.

    This statement is true:

    "A chip cannot increase mileage and hp at the EXACT same time"

    Meaning, you will not get higher gas mileage from a chipped car when the throttle is wide open than you will with a non-chipped car WHEN THE THROTTLE IS WIDE OPEN.

    This statement is also true:

    "A chip can increase mileage in one moment and hp at another moment"

    Meaning, a chipped car will have more power at WOT AND CAN ALSO provide higher mileage under normal operating circumstances and speeds.

    Is that a good summary?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    Perfect. Thank you for putting that out there better than I could.

    What I was saying is that no chip in the world could allow my car to make me go faster 0-60 all day long and yet record a higher average gas mileage at the end of a month.

    The chip is merely manipulating what is possible in the engine. The chip is not "creating" more power out of thin air, and in giving better fuel mileage, is working outside of manufacturer's specs for reliability or drivability.

    I find the notion that a chip is "outsmarting" factory engineers to be unfounded. The chip maker and the factory engineer have different goals and the chipped car is not a "better" car necessarily.

    It just changes the compromises is all.

    You want to run leaner mixtures, or higher turbo boost, or longer shift points...okay fine, as long as you accept the compromises.

    Besides, often these chips require other mods which are not unsubstantial.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Member Posts: 2,437
    Well, mr. smartiepants, you were sure splitting hairs on this one, and for what end? If you already knew what larsb said so well, why did you feel the need to go on about laws of physics and such? Talking down to people for no good reason just pisses people off. I don't think there is anyone on this particular forum who would actually think you could increase both hp and mpg at the exact same moment with a CPU reflash. I also don't think any of the posters here are unaware that chipping (or manufacturer's specs for that matter) is a compromise. As I said before, you have made some good points re: diesels, but you lose points with this unnecessary nitpicking (and implicit assumptions about how uninformed some posters are).
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,457
    It seems to me that most of the performance chip ads all focus on "Improved Performance And Mileage." So someone is ignoring physics, like the sellers of them. A few ad examples from a quickie net search:

    "Chipping a car is an easy way to make more horsepower and get better fuel mileage reliably. "

    "Extracts Every Energy Possible From Fuel Molecules, Increases Miles-Per-Gallon At Part Throttle And Horsepower At Wide-Open Throttle"
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaMember Posts: 64,482
    You shouldn't take our discussions personally. We are batting around ideas, not people. Gee, I thought it was quite productive, and brought us around to some consensus and clarity. Everyone can contribute to everyone else. That's what great about forums. That's why I started this topic, to learn what was on everyone's mind.

    Anyway--- Thanks larsb! I'm going to run off and check out the diesel scene for 2009-2010!

    Visiting Host
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Member Posts: 2,437
    "Extracts Every Energy Possible From Fuel Molecules, Increases Miles-Per-Gallon At Part Throttle And Horsepower At Wide-Open Throttle" That's an ad!! Buyer beware.

    "Chipping a car is an easy way to make more horsepower and get better fuel mileage reliably. " Less misleading (because you can do this, based on how you drive), but still an ad.

    If you want to chip, do the research. And now I am beating a dead horse. Sorry.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaMember Posts: 12,726
    the Clubman diesel!!!! :-)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZMember Posts: 5,132
    I'll never forget the SF Chronicle reporter who went to a "Save the Redwoods" party in Marin, that took place on....you guessed it... a redwood deck!

    Priceless!

    Sure sounds like the same crowd that loves the Pious so much.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Well, they meant all the OTHER redwoods, the ones they have not already cut down.

    Obviously.

    LOL ;)
  • dturrdturr Member Posts: 70
    I have owned both in the UK, don't forget the imperial gallon means more fuel than the US gallon. The diesel was less expensive than in the US but my Ford would regularly get 45-50mpg on a run and the X5 nearly 30mpg. I would not hesitate to buy either car again.
  • podpod Member Posts: 176
    Last week at Hess in RI. Regular unleaded gas=$1.59/gal; diesel=$2.69/gal

    The gap seems to remain constant. Earlier in the year when gas was 3.85 or so diesel was 4.99. Now, however the cost ratio is almost 2:1 and in the simplest oversimplification a diesel would have to get twice the mileage to break even. I know this isn't exact but it does reduce the economic advantage of diesel for the time being.
This discussion has been closed.