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https://youtube.com/watch?v=8rRy5L5K8KE
Here is an unofficial (ancient history, 4/5 years ago?) interview with the MPG record setting "Taylors". " Incidently", the car @ that time was a 2009 VW Jetta TDI !
843 miles per TANK 58+ mpg.
A scant three years later, they post 84+ mpg in a 2012 Passat TDI for a tank full , app 45% BETTER ! ???
Here is an article that dovetails into your post.
Volkswagen sales fall as Euro luxury booms
Fred Meier, James R. Healey and Chris Woodyard, USA TODAY 2:46 p.m. EST January 4, 2014
usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/01/03/european-automaker-december-2013-sales-vw-audi-bmw-mercedes/4297089/
So if I might swag, that might be a few reasons why the VW T TDI was such a:
The February C/D tested the Audi A7 TDI. They loved it, but pondered why anyone would worry about fuel prices on a car costing $82,000. They did get a kick out of getting and actual 30mpg (even with their lead-foot testers), which is 2 mpg better than a Nissan Versa.
The specs on the 6 cyl. is 240 HP and 406 lb ft.
I would love to have an A6 with that motor. I just think the A6 is the nicest looking sedan is the US for rational money...but it is still $65k with the TDI.
I don't know why they pondered that. It's pretty well known that many an owner fueling their premium brand (requiring 91 octane) will put 87 in it. I see it all the time.
I can say, that from a personal viewpoint, I have NEVER understood the rationale that just because you own an expensive vehicle, that they then shouldn't be concerned about the cost to own it. For many, like myself if I ever do decide to spring for a premium brand..like a GLK250, getting twice the fuel economy of my present ride would be part of the decision process. Of course FE is far far FAR from the be-all-end-all of actual ownership costs, unless you do 50k miles a year..then it is of course..probably front and centre.
The other thing that reviewers (including prospective shoppers.. most prevalent if they are considering the diesel premium) rarely ever consider, is that the diesel equipped car probably feels much more satisfying to drive than its gasser version. And to those people I would ask, isn't that worth something?
Lots of us will pay extra up front for a more expensive item hoping that the ownership costs will be lower over time.
Indeed, the 3.0 L TDI with the 8 speed A/T ("STANDARD") is really the "sleeper" PERFECT combination: matching suspension and braking, notwithstanding to do the combinations JUSTICE !!!! Most do not even know about, let alone have heard about, or is that really vice versa? In lots of real ways, car reviews and reviewers really do not give the combination and each component separately, the kind of accolades it REALLY deserves. On the other hand, folks that sound like they are ranting and raving about it, all too often appear outlier/fanboy/gurl and are dismissed as a standard procedure or roundly vilified.
There also seems to be a slow and steady progression as the 14 Audi A-7 TDI sports app 22 # ft, = 5.4 % more torque @ 428 # ft from 406 # ft
If one does not have a requirement for the CUV, the 3.0 L TDI/8 speed in the Audi A6 is rated EPA rated@ 38 mpg . It is of course app MINUS 800 #'s, which actually tracks with the "Taylor's" verbal estimate that for each 100#s of weight you lose app 2% of mpg. One disadvantage is as you mentioned, the prices skyrocket. Not many folks start the process with what configurations/models/oems have the 3.0 TDI/8 speed A/T and how do I navigate through that maze.
Try to get a gasser 406 to 428 # ft of torque equivalent ! ?
A very big positive for that TDI V6 engine and 8 speed transmission. It is in at least 7 different vehicles from VW, Audi & Porsche that are sold in the USA. Making it easier and easier to get parts and find people to work on them. Speaking of parts. When I ordered a new grill that got trashed when I hit the turkey vulture, it was here in 2 days. My brother in law had his new Ford Escape in the shop 8 days waiting for some part that went out in his steering. He has had way more problems with that 2010 Escape than I would put up with.
It is pretty interesting that even as some of the items are more niche like, the logistical system is able to expedient these limited products.
Another example could be Ad Blue @ 2.73 per gal, discoverdef.com/news/2011/12/4/average-us-def-pump-price-reaches-$273-per-gallon-in-november/
since a lot of folks cite it ( one thing more to do over RUB/PUG products) as an issue to avoid diesels. I normally need 4.5 gals every 15,000 miles. (@ .0000819 cents per mile) If I want to avoid fuel stations that dispense Ad Blue like RUG/PUG, diesel fuel, albeit way lesser volume and quantity, I do pay more for it (@ $6.80. local auto parts store)
VW, BMW, MB, diesel specification motor oils are another example.
Off topic, it is funny how this "massive global WARMING" during winter is INCREASING the consumption of ALL fuels.
Tesla's with a 300 mile "theoretical" range, might hit 200 miles, and that is not even counting the operational loss ( unknown, decreased equivalent mpg ) .
I am "suffering" a MINUS - 1 to 2 mpg HIT, in the SOS/DD scenarios and the same minus -MPG during daily commute traffic. But then, we have three folks commuting (@ three different locations) in the car up from 2. So in effect we do app 14,000 miles year,
where 42,000 miles will do. The GALLONAGE concept, which one host is fond of is using, is we use 350 gals when 1,050 gals would have done just fine. 
Most to the overwhelming majority of Priuses on the same routes are "singles." Those singles with decals use the commute lanes, clogging up those lanes for people who actually have MORE COMMUTERS IN the car. It also does make me wonder how many Teslas transport more than one person and how it affects mpg with 3 folks in it.
The "smallish "Jetta" TDI is plenty roomy, and is the proverbial and literal trooper. Longer term, I am looking @ the bigger Passat TDI or Audi TDI for the next product. 38 mpg in a 3.0 L TDI in addition to 406 to 423 # ft and ROOMIER are almost no brainer reasons!!!!
Anyone been to a VW dealer lately to compare the "three" flavors of Jettas? Gas, TDI, and the hybrid? The '14 hybrid sounds like it's special order only but the mpg numbers look good. It burns premium so the fuel costs will be more similar to diesel than the RUG burners.
I did not even know VW sold a Jetta Hybrid until I saw one at our local PO. What a waste of money. He could have had a real car with about $5000 left in his wallet. There are 34 Jetta hybrids posting on fuelly from 32-50 MPG average 40.7 MPG. There are over 4600 Jetta TDI postings with the most getting 40 MPG. Why waste the money and add all the complexity to go wrong with no gain in mileage. For a couple $grand less he could have bought a loaded 2014 Passat TDI and had the most fuel efficient car in America.
Ahh..but they'd lack that warm and fuzzy green feeling :sick:
Sadly most wannabe greenies are bigger polluters than they think. My green ideal was the most conservative House member ever. And now he is living off the grid. A Green example for US all.
http://www.politico.com//magazine/story/2014/01/roscoe-bartlett-congressman-off-the-grid-101720.html#.UswvBvvgyP8
I saw that - Bartlett is so far right he's left.
Even though I lived for a time in the state of Maryland (not at any altitude to speak of), I have to remind myself that ALTITUDE is more of a "western" thing.
....."as I climbed to nearly 4,000 feet, one of the highest U.S. elevations east of the Rocky Mountains. "....
So the advantages of diesel (@ altitude) are somewhat lost on more flat landers.
I think those in West Virgina (and many in Appalachia in general) can appreciate the advantages of torque when climbing hills, at least. The "back" roads (of which most qualify) over there generally follow the hills (vs. cutting through them). Elevation is constantly changing - and quickly, even if the upper terminus is rather small compared to what we may consider significant.
Evidently the author of the article thought it was an important distinction, or it was a SLOW news day. What I took away from it, given this thread are not many gasser types switch because of "higher" altitude operation.
@xwesx, we went through there after the van's timing belt was changed and it was a tooth off. It really labored in those hills and they kept coming one right after another. Came back the northern route.
In the news:
"Americans are becoming increasingly receptive of diesel cars because they are cleaner and more fuel-efficient than in the past. But there is still a large price gap between gas and diesel models, a factor that may be hindering diesel sales. Volkswagen, however, is trying to make diesel a bit more affordable by introducing the Jetta TDI Value Edition.
A base, no-frills Jetta with an inline four-cylinder gasoline engine sells for $16,720, but the cheapest diesel Jetta is priced at $23,625. The Jetta TDI Value Edition will shave a few thousand dollars off this price, coming in as low as $21,295 when equipped with a manual transmission." (automotive.com)
In the context of the implications, how would the narrative go with hybrids STILL (after easily a decade) priced WAY higher than gassers?
With any fuel, you have to look at the TCO. Most people don't though, do they?
The system has built in disincentives against diesel passenger cars.
Worldwide spread ignorance will always trump being informed. Everything is geared to keep the doors open (the widest in fact) for the lowest common denominator.
So do you have any reply regarding my enquiry about your OCIs?
I have believed since first getting interested in a diesel vehicle back in 1998 that the oil companies are against a massive number of diesel vehicles in the USA. The government agencies like EPA and CARB go along with what they want. The tax people have to hate diesel. No matter how you refine a barrel of oil you have a lot of gasoline to get rid of. The story has not changed since Rockefeller pulled a quick one on Henry Ford 100+ years ago. If we ever get a cheap source of diesel from natural gas or algae the doors will open and we will enjoy the driving pleasure the EU has had for decades.
All the signs are there. To conclude OTHERWISE might be extreme denial to a mild Einstein definition of ....insanity. Here are ONLY a few.
The overwhelming majority of passenger cars are gassers 95% gassers RUG/PUG, with now up to 10% ethanol.
The majority of those gassers (75%) are large cars to light truck.
All RUG/PUG ethanol and E85 vehicles are higher cost per mile driven and get less mpg (USE MORE FUEL) than " LIKE model" diesels .
5% are diesel cars and trucks with fully (STILL)jj half of those being (special dispensation emission rules, HEAVY) "light trucks".
This leaves app 2.5% (half) of 257.512 M registered vehicles (2011 NHTSA www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx (in arrears) figures or 6.4378 M being diesel CARS/CUV's.
So diesel passenger cars/CUV's are REALLY less than 2.5% of the passenger vehicle fleet, i.e., much smaller subset.
higher costs due to a myriad of legislative laws and regulatory compliances. $3k to $5k are the acknowledged higher costs.
Prius is frequently mentioned as getting better mpg than some to ANY diesel. The truth of the matter there are ZERO DIESEL Priuses. Any denier does not want to acknowledge this OMISSION.
But diesel is heavily used in the US. Most of our transportation system relies on it. Passenger cars are just a small part of moving freight and people (especially freight).
And yeah, it'd be nice to whack those numbers down. Or at least clean up the industry some more. All those emissions from the semis and ships and rail (not to mention jet fuel) aren't healthy. Mostly it's diesel trucks ((fhwa.dot.gov).)
Who cares if there's not a diesel Prius? GPM is GPM. And emissions grams/mile is grams/mile.
I think you are leaving out the most important component, most NON passenger car diesels, i.e.,older to grandfathered in units have lesser to little to NO emissions controls !!!! ???? One can drive the literal and proverbial oil tanker, Cruise liners, airplanes, through the "regulations" (a plug to LCD!! ???) I went to pick up some family members from a cruise liner at a San Francisco pier (I don't even think I need to get into the envirocon zealotry here.) They give actual religious zealots the bad name even as if they are probably more extreme than them. Ships are allowed to use BUNKER oil !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They have NO/NONE NADA emissions controls and that is by LAW and legislation !!!!! ??????? Did I mention that SF has a world destination Aeroport????? (not to pick on them, specifically) but there is an SFO !!! ????
Indeed Prius uses a much dirtier fuel than ULSD 30 to 90 ppm sulfur vs 15 ppm nominally delivered @ the pumps @ 10 to 5 ppm sulfur !!! Most gasser cars and light trucks Rug/PUG/hybrid have greater emissions than diesel passenger cars. Yet diesel passenger cars get excoriated while greater pollution generators get the pass !!
Now I am only making a case for the big H here.
Yeah, I'd love to see the diesel stinkers off the road. Got blasted yesterday by the neighbor's plow guy.
Toyota says: "Prius is certified as an Advanced Technology Partial Zero Emission Vehicle (AT-PZEV) 17 in California and states adopting its emissions guidelines." CARB has some "clunker" programs for smoggy cars and old fleet vehicles. Wiki says "The vehicles constructed to meet the PZEV requirements must achieve both SULEV (Super Ultra Low Emission Vehicle) exhaust emissions and zero evaporative (fuel system) emissions. The SULEV standard is designed to be even more rigorous than the Ultra standard or low-emission vehicle standard."
That wouldn't be business friendly, the key goal of the new age capitalist. In my area anyway, I see a lot more smoky stinky commercial box trucks and pickups that are probably under 15 years old than 1978 MBs or VWs.
Around here it is the free flow of old trucks from Mexico that are spewing the smoke. I don't think Mexico has adopted ULSD yet. Thanks to the current administration Mexican truckers can haul there loads anywhere in the USA.
Critics such as Reps. Peter DeFazio, D-Ore., and Duncan Hunter, R-Calif., argue that Mexico's trucking industry is far less regulated and monitored than the USA's and that the deal opens the way for Mexican narco-traffickers to gain a foothold on U.S. roads. They're not convinced by assurances that Mexican trucks and drivers will be carefully inspected and monitored by U.S. authorities.
"It takes $50 and a fake gold watch to get out of a speeding ticket in Tijuana," says Hunter. "This is a place where, if you think slapping a sticker on a windshield is going to stop the narco-traffickers down there from using that truck, I would say the (federal transportation) guys are extremely naïve."
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/economy/2011-08-10-mexican-trucks-us-highways_n.htm
When weighing the pros and cons of buying a diesel car, one thing not mentioned on this list is that diesel engines tend to be more durable and can often go longer before requiring a major repair. So, if you can accept the higher upfront cost of buying diesel (and higher gas cost), then car owners can hopefully expect to safe money on repairs down the road.
That's come up before but there doesn't seem to be any solid proof that passenger diesel cars last longer or are cheaper to maintain .
(Your link looked like a promotional one and was removed. Please see the Rules of the Road).
Can't say that VW isn't afraid of different powertrains -> [http://autoblog.com/2014/01/08/vw-passat-bluemotion-concept-detroit-official/]
25 NX 450h+ / 24 Sienna Plat AWD / 23 Civic Type-R / 21 Boxster GTS 4.0
@tifighter, we haven't tweaked that URL box yet to get rid of the extra http when you type or paste your link in the box.
Try this one (or edit yours):
autoblog.com/2014/01/08/vw-passat-bluemotion-concept-detroit-official/
@Stever@Edmunds said:
That's come up before but there doesn't seem to be any solid proof that passenger diesel cars last longer or are cheaper to maintain .
Higher resale value of diesels is one benefit that should be added to any TCO chart. Most of the TCOs I have looked at use a lot of arbitrary numbers that do not really give a clear picture. What is the frustration of owning a dog of a car worth over a 5 year period vs the total satisfaction of ownership? I think you remember my many complaints about my two previous vehicles the 05 GMC hybrid and 07 Sequoia. There are so many factors that apply to vehicle ownership that cannot be figured in the total cost.
I look at cost to own with respect to maintenance, repairs and MPG. I expect a car to have zero repair issues the first 100K miles, maintenance limited to oil changes, tires, brake pads, transmission fluid every 60k miles, spark plugs every 100k miles and that's about it. It's what I've gotten with my Honda Fit & Prius. I happen to like the vehicles and they both are generally at the top of any list in terms of total ownership costs, reliability, etc, and I actually enjoy driving them. I've taken my Gen II Prius on the pacific coast highway in big sur and it was fun. The truth is that any car can be fun to drive...it's just that with more sporty cars with better handling you have to go at a higher speed to get the same amount of pleasure.
Anyway, from 100-200K miles there could be the occasional repair, but nothing very major.
An engine that can last 300K miles doesn't matter if you end up taking the car to a shop every other month for some sort of other repair.
Of course everyone will have their own stories about this good car or that bad one. In general, Honda's and Toyota's have good long term reliability with minimum fuss. VW, Volvo, Subaru and some others can last a long time, but it seems that the owners end up needing a personal mechanic to make them last, or really like to work on cars themselves.
Of course bottom line is that if you hate the car you're driving it doesn't matter how good or efficient it is at an objective level.
In those respects, we have always talked about the same points. Diesel expectations are a bare minimum of 100,000 to 120,000 miles of non covered unscheduled maintenance. Diesels can easily do 10,000 to 30,000 miles OCI's. If you do 10,000 miles OCI's after the covered maintenance portion you are wasting monies on 2 more oil changes. Defacto, if you run 10,000 or less miles OCI's, you are in effect saying the Prius runs dirty. Tires (H rated) more like 80,000 to 120,000 miles, alignments 100,000 to 120,000 miles. Brake pads and rotors are original OEM@ 190,000 miles. SWAG to 250,000 miles and more likely beyond. Transmission fluid I am thinking of changing for the first time @ 250,000 miles. This diesel has NO spark plugs. I did need to change one glow plug and did the other three for preventative sake.
Well like I said, you have to wonder why they don't make Prius plows !! ???
Hopefully Toyota has addressed that problem with the Prius. Early on the slightest loss of traction on ice or snow ended your forward movement. Might be fun to have one just to look green when it is snowing.
I remember back in the 80s or so some outfit was pushing plows for passenger cars. In all my years in snow county I can't recall ever seeing one on anything but a pickup (or an ATV).
Most of those were on gas pickups btw.
Nice color by the way, was leaning toward blue but may start lobbying for white again (especially if we move one of these years).
There you go with the ridiculous OCI suggestions again, but continue to refuse to answer my questions about any specifics in more detail. Or are these OCI posts intended for some other unknown radical purpose?
250000k miles and still no tranny oil change? On a car you expect to go to over 500k?....Hoo kaaay
That's ok, I'm not looking for any answers any longer as no doubt they'll be a bit too out there for me to wrap my head around anyway..
I am not sure why you call 30,000 miles OCI's ridiculous. You probably grew up with the quickie lube 1,500 miles to 3,000 miles GASSER recommendations. I am sure a lot of folks have never gotten over that. Shoot just 5,000 to 10,000 miles OCI's are like falling off the 1490's Christopher Columbus, edge of the proverbial earth.
The answers ARE pretty simple. I do 30,000 miles OCI's. Do you want UOA's? Send me specimen cups and you can send the sample to whatever lab you wish AND publish the results. Want to control the process? I can arrange to meet you near here. If I do it, you will accuse me of controlling the narrative, aka, ... "for some unknown radical purpose". To give you a heads up, no one has ever taken me up on it (11 years), sans one guy ( a VW and MB diesel guru), who happens to advocate LONGER OCI's.
HE actually has posted 22,000 miles OCI's (another web site) . Per 1,000 miles the wear metals are LESS!!! Even as folks that do 5,000 to 10,000 miles OCI's post HIGHER wear numbers !!
The car (my VW Jetta TDI) was scheduled to BLOW up 10 years ago due to longer OCI's. It still does 48-50 mpg !! So, not much to wrap one's head around, albeit WAY cost effective.
It was amazing how many 1/2 ton PU trucks had plows. If you were buying a used truck first thing you looked for was those mounts for a plow. Good reason to pass as plowing was tough on a truck. The foo foo PU trucks sold today are not likely to last more than a season with a plow. Minimum one ton diesel 4x4 single cab short bed. With a ton of sand bags in the bed.
I doubt I would buy another Toyota after the Sequoia. Too many little things went wrong. My wife's granddaughter has already used the 7 year extended warranty. The drivers side mirror was making a buzzing sound. $522 for a mirror. Rear windshield wiper is not working so she has to take it back in. NAV went out early on. The rear hatch hydraulic units never did work in the cold. The lug nut covers rattle, and the shop manager said they all do that. You only hear them when you are driving slow with windows open. Go ahead and buy a Prius if you live close to a dealer.
I've mostly fallen into "long" intervals on my van. Always did 7,500 ones, but I'm a slacker. I think the longest has been 12,000 miles. When the snow melts, I'll try to get the last 5,000 miles so I can break 200k and drive it off a cliff.
A lab report would be fun, but I'm too cheap to spring the $25.
30k intervals sounds lovely. I could even tolerate using synthetic or GM branded oil for that interval.
Aren't you diesel guys supposed to be using parallel filters and never changing the oil though? Just top it up and replace the filters?
(@gagrice, what's a "dealer?")
My free service on the Touareg TDI is the first 48k miles at 10k mile intervals. I use synthetic in my Nissan Frontier about every 5-6k miles. About once a year. Same as I did with the Sequoia. Still use dino oil in the Lexus. I think someone that does a lot of city driving would want to change more often, not sure why. I think the old 3k mile OC was purely greed on the part of the automakers and oil companies.
WOW ! That Prius is SOME snow plow !! It global plowed the snow from the area pictured !!!!! It gave the area sunshine and clean water !!!
If you had a lot of money to waste it would be fun to build a ground up solid snow plow with diesel engine. Then plop a fiberglass Prius body on it. Of course it would not be of any use where I plan to be. That is where they don't get enough snow to worry about. I guess I should have added some Mickey Thompson snow tires.
I just noticed on Edumunds.com on the 14 Jetta line that gasser Jetta's can come with 5 speed M/T's. Jetta TDI's can come with 6 speed M/T's.
ruking1...if all VWs had the same reliability and maintenance intervals as yours, I think that the reputation in terms of quality would surpass every car maker out there! But in the real it doesn't seem that's the case. My cousin had an old ford escort with over 200K miles on it and swears he hasn't had anything break on it, but that sure doesn't mean I'm going out to by a C-Max!
I have owned Ford vans, but in businesses. Other than that, I have not owned Ford passenger cars.
I TRULY do not believe the bird of good fortunate "HIT" me (currently) 3 times, and over a period of now 11 years. !! ?? If that sounds vague, I think I got the AVERAGE and not cherry pick examples, so called "RUN of the mill", OFF the line samples of three products. So really the issue is your multi year disbelief and not my anecdotal experiences.
As for your cousin's "old Ford Escort", I truly have ZERO knowledge of it, total and complete ignorance. So if you are comparing your car/s to it, I don't know what to say. Evidently, knowing YOU, he chose the FORD and you, vice versa. I am not sure what that even means. Perhaps you do, since you brought it up.
I guess you missed the broader point, which is not to take one person's experience and try to generalize it. For example just because your car(s) run just fine on a 250k transmission fluid change doesn't mean that's the standard for everyone with the same make and model as yours. Particularly when some points seem far beyond the range of normal. Again, if your experience is "average" for a vw owner, then why doesn't CR, JDP, US News and other sources that report reliablity issues rank VW much higher? And does VW maintenance schedules for a new TDI Jetta match your recommendations?
Anyway, I know better than to go back and forth in this forum with you rucking1, so I'll just leave with my basic point of not to generalize a single individual's experience, even though it's hard to expect that individual not to generalize.