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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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I worked with a guy in Alaska that lived in Brookings, So Dakota. His wife sold Fords and he got a new F250 diesel every few years. As long as I can remember even back in the 1990s he used B20 from the Cooperative. He never had a problem and saved money. I think the Germans are so anal about everything, they just don't want to take the risk. If a fuel dealer sells bad diesel they can throw the failure back at them. I would imagine if you got some 500PPM diesel in your VW it would really mess it up.
I am thinking CA dealers probably do not offer any higher quality than they have to. So we are probably getting 40 Cetane at most dealers. I have not seen any Premium diesel sold down here. It is supposed to be a minimum of 47 Cetane.
Germans (EU) say we (US markets) have "BAD ULSD", aka LOW cetane and low lubricity !!
LOW lubricity is rumored to be one to part of the cause/s of the HPFP premature failure issue ! Yet is is rumored that B (whatever) has HIGHER lubricity, whatever than means. HIGHER lubricity is again rumored to PREVENT HPFP failure, obvious due to higher lubricity. So why would they NOT want higher lubricity? (recommend additive or higher B ratings??? Statistics however have NO correlation to lower lubricity significance outweighing high lubricity.in HPFP failures. !! ??
I hope this goes not induce glaze over for the rest of thread readers. B 100 has ZERO ppm sulfur. For those NOT glazing over, B20 in theory drops a 15 ppm STANDARDS ULSD to 12 ppm sulfur. In practice, it is even lower (5 ppm to 10 ppm nominally delivered @ the pumps). It would be more like 4 ppm to 8 ppm sulfur.
I think that cetane ratings (above the LAW) being almost an industry secret is pretty telling that it is probably not much above what, is required by law.
I have also read that ppm sulfur rates are @ 5 to 10 ppm/than 15 ppm (33% to 67% LOWER) to avoid MASSIVE fines to felony convictions.
On the other side of it, any RUG to PUG rates past 30 ppm sulfur to 90 ppm sulfur can be mitigated with an off line fee. This means RUG/PUG can be 6 to 18 TIMES dirtier than ULSD by LAW !!!!! MASSIVE PUNISHMENT on one side, to max: ... pay the fee on the other.
https://autos.yahoo.com/news/bmw-diesel-model-sales-unaffected-lower-gas-prices-140009220.html
First off, the larger car to light truck market @ 75% PLUS of the PVF really has not ceded much in the way of %'s.
BMW has also hinted that due to the high end and middle to lower end markets fragmentations their share/s is/are being cramped, if not cramped for some time.
The last is that it has been known for a LONG time that the larger car to light truck markets are here to stay in US markets BMW seems to be in the SUV/CUV segment also. The ww suv/cuv 's is/are built in the US., X5 etc. So in that sense, it is a take it or leave it proposition. SO why would you dial yourself out of the BIGGEST market share (75% PLUS) in the US?
If people didn't care about the price at the pump hen truck and SUV sales would have stayed flat as gas prices dropped. But sales are up and a good part of it is the cheap gas. (link)
I think it is more like, I remember when 12 to 15 mpg was GOOD ! Now my F-150 gets 20 mpg WOW !!!! That is progress !!
Indeed, a VERY short time ago, Toyota CAMRY's were on the gas guzzlers list !!!! The IRS rules indicated you could swap that for a "fuel efficient " full sized American truck !! ???
So for example, you would think the auto HATERS would have been GLEEFUL with 10.5 M in car sales to our now 17 M (62% more NOW). IF GM/Chrysler/Ford went bankrupt, aka shot the productive capacity in the literal head, they'd all do the happy dance. Instead, they went to rescue the UNION's side of the house !! ??? It is truly ironic and to me, strangely funny how auto manufacturing meets their definition of a CRAPPY job, worthy of being located TO the third world, or totally eliminated.
Diesels make up 47 percent of 3 Series wagons sold, and 15 percent for the X5, the carmaker says.
In 2014, 7 to 10 percent of all 3 Series, 5 Series, and 7 Series sedans sold in the U.S. were fitted with diesel engines.
BMW total 2014 sales 339,738 up 9.8% over 2013. (less Mini)
Mercedes 2014 sales 330,391 up 5.7% (less Sprinter& Smart)
Audi is trying to catch the leaders with 15.2% increase over 2013. They are selling a lot of diesels.
Just TOTALLY as a SWAG, the diesel PVF is probably close to 2.5% rather than LESS than 2.5%.
BMW added a lot of 2014 diesel models that will sell well. My dealings with MB in 2013 left me with the feeling they could care less about selling me a diesel SUV. They were pleasant and helpful. I did not realize how little effort the salesman put out, until we took an hour and a half test drive in the Touareg. The three test drives at MB were a max of 15 minutes each. The lack of interest in making the deal at MB ended their chances. Must be the nature of the beast.
MB 2013 312,534 up 14% over 2012
BMW2013 309,280 up 9.9% over 2012
I know our local BMW dealer is very aggressive, they just did not have anything in 2013 that I wanted. I will probably test drive the X3 diesel one of these days. The Run Flat tires are still a big turn off for me.
At first the run flats were a turn off. I was just resolved to them wear out rather quickly and then going to the second set. I am having second thoughts as I A/B drive them.
Right now I am @ 16,500 miles per 1/32nd in of wear. That consumption rate is a WOW to me, given a 200 A UTQG rating vs 680 AA on the 12 VW Touareg TDI and a 20,000 miles per 1/32nd in wear rate. Probably more important are performance parameters have been good. The $147. per tire price difference between my first choice and oem run flats would probably give me pause.
After a hiatus, significant numbers of cleaner diesel engines are now being sold each year in new vehicles on U.S. roads.
And a new study confirms that they are achieving the low emissions they were expected to."
Latest Diesel Engines As Clean As Expected Under EPA Rules, Study Shows (greencarreports.com)
The truth REMAINS more like there were/was/remains NO statistically significant deal @ the time to MAKE the change. The truth now is how can the truth be spun to make it the boogie man it has never been.
Exports of ultra low sulfur diesel from the US to Europe are on track to almost double in the first half of the year compared with 2013 as US refineries continue to benefit from cheap crude prices, according to data from the US Energy Information Administration, Platts cFlow and traders Tuesday.
Average monthly volumes exported in the first half of 2013 from the US to Europe stood at 838,000 mt, EIA data showed, but these have risen to 1.5 million mt per month in the first six months of 2014.
EIA data for distillate fuel oil under 15 ppm has been published up until March 2014. For April, May and June, data from Platts vessel tracking software cFlow and trading sources was used to make the calculations.
http://www.platts.com/latest-news/oil/london/us-diesel-exports-to-europe-to-almost-double-26812319
US becoming 'refiner to the world' as diesel demand grows
U.S. refineries are expanding their diesel-production capacity, not so much for truckers in the U.S., but for drivers in places such as Mexico City and Santiago, Chile.
Already running at their highest levels in six years, U.S. refineries are finding strong demand for diesel fuel, used widely in cars outside of the United States, and other distillates, like jet fuel.
The U.S. became a net exporter of petroleum products just two years ago and is now the largest exporter in the world.
The product of choice for export is diesel because margins are much higher and demand is growing, and U.S. refiners have an advantage over foreign counterparts. Natural gas to fire up refineries is abundant and much cheaper in the U.S., and the expansion of U.S. oil production has made oil more plentiful and cheaper than if refiners had to buy it on the world market.
As of mid-year, margins on U.S. Gulf Coast-produced diesel were running just above $16 barrel, while the margins on finished gasoline were much lower at just under $8 barrel, and that trend is not new.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100943620
A beta test unit 9 foot x 12 ft is located in Hayward, CA in an INDUSTRIAL building with access to natural gas can manufacture RUG/PUG and diesel (ZERO ppm sulfur) for app $1.00 per gal !!!!! IF the 9 x12 processor can be commercialized, it can be a total business disrupter ! So in effect the whole food chain is almost totally scale able.
The same would also be true for ANY combination of fuels. Not to get too far afield, but previously discussed and for example, equal %'s ;
1. battery power,
2. RUG,
3. PUG
4. ULSD
5. natural gas
6. hydrogen battery power.
7. EV.
Equal %'s would put each source @ say 14 %.
that's because supply/demand curve for diesel is INELASTIC and for gas it is much more ELASTIC.
this is due to diesel bigrigs and something like the idea that "THE ROADS MUST ROLL".
(The food/products must be delivered, no matter the price of fuel. for Gas/passenger-vehicles, people tend to back off on their driving and carpool when prices hit certain level - this reduces demand elastically like a rubber-band. )
it's yet another downside for diesel passenger-vehicle owners , the inelastic demand curve for diesel fuel.
ouch !
Also you are totally ignoring that of a barrel of oil, diesel and the "waste" products RUG/PUG are produced in almost constant percentages, aka NOT equal percentages (EIA.gov). You almost can not produce/refine one without the other.
Indeed a technological break through would be to "harvest" a barrel of oil to produce/refine closer to all diesel and/or all RUG/PUG.
To more "naturally" balance the supply and demand would put the diesel PVF closer to 40/60 instead of what is is now @ 95% PLUS RUG/PUG. less than 2.5% diesel CARS.
Another is the food chain wants you to consume MORE RUG/PUG not less (in comparison to diesel). And the overwhelming majority (95% PLUS)... DO !!!
So, I just filled the MB 250 BT, 484 miles for 39.35 mpg @ $2.99= .07598 cents.
The MB 350 PUG @ $2.49 ( .50 cents cheaper) would post 23.4 mpg or .1064 per mile driven fuel or 40 % MORE !!! So, does this sound like HIGHER (68 % MORE) consumption and @ higher cost per mile driven?
I am ok with you both consuming more and paying more for it. It would appear you take umbrage with that.
You are entitled to your opinions, but your opinions do not match realities. Of course, one does with ones' nickels what one wants to do. (not much new here)
So for example, what would PAR to disadvantage diesel on the CONSUMPTION level would be for the like model PUG engine to be able POST 39.5 mpg or MORE !! OR for diesel to get only 23.4 mpg or LESS. THEN for SURE per mile driven diesel would be HIGHER. The manipulation of prices @ a plethora of levels are well known and seasonal.
New VW TDI wagons for $20k sure do get my interest since they have stickshift and my favorite form-factor! With fuel pricing how it is now, I'd pick VW TDI over gas, and would have trade it just before the HPFP imploded and/or the warranty on HPFP expired.
There's a VW dealer a few miles away....
OK, King , you've convinced me, due to your better understanding of the elasticity or nonelasticity of the diesel demand curve, I will go buy my fifth VW TDI asap, a wagon. ... I hear they are discounted now... ! Alrighty then...
I have alway said they are YOUR nickels. VW's (or any other diesel oems for that matter) has an ebb and flow on sales and prices. IF this will be your fifth VW TDI , I think you know the drill much better than I.
So I like to use round and factorable numbers like 25,000, 50,000, 75,000, 100,000 miles,for fuel calculations, BOTH because they are scaleable (in the case of VW JSW 120,000 miles, as it is the first major tune) and the numbers can hit me in the head like a 2 x4 to the forehead. JSW's have historically kept higher resale value. IN addition as Gagrice has posted, the JSW take rate is app 85% TDI.
This might be a personal quirk, but I am just fine with the CUV/SUV "station wagon" look, but have never bought a passenger car station wagon or a JSW TDI.
ouch !
My experience over the last ten years has been positive for the 3 diesel vehicles. If I had bought any of the three with gas engines, my fuel costs would have been much higher, even with gas prices being less. And the several times they were the same I was pocketing significant cash savings with a diesel. Those that bought the V6 gas Touareg driving mostly city as I have are getting about 16 MPG. With our current price of RUG being $2.29, diesel would have to be $3.72 before it would be more expensive than driving the gas model. I hate to think what the Sprinter RV would have been with a gas engine vs the diesel. I am sure less than half the 22 MPG I averaged the year I owned it. I see no advantage to gas, except to make the oil companies richer.
PS
with the Touareg V6 you have to use Premium gas. Which is higher than diesel in San Diego today.
http://www.sandiegogasprices.com/Costco_Gas_Stations/Chula_Vista/75686/index.aspx
The gasoline burners, not so much.
Do (YOU or shall I say) WE love buying oil from folk who HATE the figurative and literal ground we walk on??? Yes, they use the profits to DESTROY US.
Yet a MERE 1 % over supply in the 95% PLUS RUG/PUG can crash the prices 50 % plus and literally overnight !! ?? What do you think it will take for the WAY smaller D2 PVF markets ????
So let's do it jeopardy style:
what is 1% of 2.5% to 5 % diesel PVF ?????
TMI: Why do you think it is a FEDERAL FELONY (hint: no discount in FEDERAL SENTENCING) to burn red dye diesel in YOUR on ROAD diesel car or truck? In a 16 gal tank, one might have not paid .19 cents a gal? $2.88? Yet if caught and convicted, U/S will pay upwards of $ 30k a year for 3 hots and a cot and cable TV ? Try getting a job after that?
Ford, No Diesels for LARGE SUV's ?
http://www.dallasnews.com/business/columnists/terry-box/20150130-ford-gets-back-in-the-oversize-suv-business.ece
Geez, that would give me app 3.9 M miles on the MB 250 BT.
So what was the see-KOO-lee-auk doing in Hawaii? Little vacation time for the crew? Are you going to be able to go out on her? It sounds like quite a ship. Do they use ULSD to make it as clean running as possible? Be sure and read the News articles about OUR new research ship. One of the better uses of our Stimulus cash.
https://www.sikuliaq.alaska.edu/
https://www.sfos.uaf.edu/sikuliaq/gallery/metal-jan11.html#
Must be a lot of BYOB going on for them to shut down the bars.
Five Questions: U.S. Jaguar Land Rover CEO On Diesels, Brand, And Growth (thecarconnection.com)
Interesting statement in the about the "blind taste test".
Land Rover is adding a diesel engine option to its line of super-luxe SUVs. Announced as part of the 2015 Detroit auto show festivities, the first U.S.-market Land Rover models to get the compression-ignition Td6 V-6 will be the Range Rover and Range Rover Sport, both in HSE trim. The pair are scheduled to go on sale in the fall of 2015 as 2016 models.
Rated at a reasonable 254 horsepower, the real story is torque: A solid 440 lb-ft of twist is available from just 1750 rpm. (For comparison, LR’s current supercharged 3.0-liter gasoline V-6 makes 332 lb-ft at 3500 rpm.) Given that, the powerplant certainly has the grunt to get things rolling whether you’re crawling through the boonies or simply loaded down with trophies from your latest Costco safari. Mated to a ZF-supplied eight-speed automatic, the Range Rover Sport Td6 and Range Rover Td6 manage the benchmark zero-to-60-mph run in 7.1 and 7.4 seconds, compared to the 6.9- and 7.1-second times of their six-cylinder gasoline counterparts.
http://blog.caranddriver.com/diesel-in-detroit-range-rover-range-rover-sport-adding-diesel-v-6-in-u-s-for-2016/
I am continually amazed that most gasser, indeed some diesel drivers are almost CLUELESS as to what is being talked about here. Indeed and probably even more amazing, a lot of automotive journalists are clueless, to not articulating the issue well, when they do understand.
Liter for liter, the TDI produces WAY more torque AND does so with BETTER MPG.
..."A solid 440 lb-ft of twist is available from just 1750 rpm. (For comparison, LR’s current supercharged 3.0-liter gasoline V-6 makes 332 lb-ft at 3500 rpm.) "...
So in the above quote/d example, the TDI posts 33% MORE torque.
The TMI here is not many gasser cars use superchargers, which (consumes even MORE fuel and) adds 100 hp and app 75 # ft.
With less mpg AND sans the supercharger on the gasser, the higher diesel torque figures would be close to 71% better.
Further TMI, With/out Supercharger gasser mpg is LOWER than like model TDI.
I can use the 12 year old model year ( the design is obvious much older) VW Jetta's 1.9 TDI (155 # ft 50 mpg, D2 ) , 2.0 (N/A) 122 # ft, 25.5 mpg, RUG) 1.8 T, 173# ft 26.6 mpg, PUG) , but I do not want to turn this dead horse into a ...sausage making operation.
But then on the other hand, the GOOGLE buses have that AND more !! I wonder why they don't use those as the test mules for driver LESS transportation ?????
I am just surprised they don't stock refers and have a microwave.
OPEC Sees Oil Prices Exploding to $200 a Barrel
By Matt DiLallo | More Articles | Save For Later
January 31, 2015
Bigger for me is MP3 hard drive with SD card loading. Without Google Maps I will not likely be buying another vehicle with NAV.
On diesels, I do know that most buyers continue to buy gasser related vehicles.
We do go back and forth on some to a lot of issues. I have really not seen many articles on what REALLY sells cars or what factors are real important to folks or how that middle ground gets resolved.
I don't know how this fits in the scheme of things, BUT in the MB 250 BT's case, I just asked them to call back when they had an example or examples that didn't have all the options (stuff) they wanted to sell (and I didn't want) and had stuff I was ok with buying. It took two to 2.5 years. As I have read and has turned out, I had two cycles (model years of) "constant" improvements, turning out probably better than IF I had bought earlier.
Color is very important. I like white. If everything was perfect and it was silver I may buy. Not likely unless they were beat down well below invoice. Probably why I did not get far with Mercedes, they didn't want to talk bottom line cash price below invoice. Oh well I am more than happy they did not. They also did not want to get a vehicle from another dealership. VW was more than happy to bring what I wanted cross country. With no extra shipping charge.
i think it's unusual to talk about diesel vehicles in USA as being fast/performance vehicles just because diesels have lots of torque. . diesels are slooooooooow compared to actual fast/quick/zippy/handling cars.
if i were shopping for a nonperformance stickshift car, i would find another diesel disincentive to be the adblue/regen/dpf - just more stuff/software/sensors to break.
I would also agree with you getting a "performance" diesel JUST because diesel have lots of torque, is looking for a needle in a haystack. IF you are looking for 4.0 second (or better) zero to 60 mph and a diesel does 7.5 seconds, the math does not make any sense. Indeed, I can not think of one, let alone many that are on US markets. So for example, Corvette does not make a 7 speed manual PERFORMANCE TDI.
So why are you posting on a diesel thread? I think even diesel folks really don't like/want to HAVE to do this. It is an acknowledged annoyance, that has the defacto effect of being (for you a major) an obstacle. Indeed, I do not like to do many things one has to do with GASSERS !!! Filling ADBlue is an annoyance and extra expense. Do I LIKE to LOVE that/them? NO !!! Do I do them? ABSOLUTELY !!! For like miles, my anecdotal experiences have been MANY more gasser sensors (02 sensors etc.) have gone wrong than DIESEL sensors. But as you will probably agree, it is hard to see that, if you do not own both, one or either. If you don't own a diesel then why would you even know or care?
Why not? The title Shifty wrote asks what would it take for you to buy a diesel car. For some people it will take blistering acceleration for a diesel to make their short list.
I guess we could start a "I love my diesel because..." discussion. Be curious to see how many actual owners post.