The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency doesn't test every new car for emissions complianceevery year. Most buyers don't know that, though, since the EPA's name is on the official ratings.
Instead, manufacturers "self-certify" and submit their data to the EPA. The agency tests about 15 percent of the new cars that go on sale each year, but it simply doesn't have the resources--in staff or in funds--to test every new car.
It's worth noting that in the wake of fuel-efficiency rating reductions by Hyundai and Kia, and then by Ford (twice), the EPA has said it will step up its verification and may require manufacturers to confirm their lab results with on-road testing.
But that's in the future. The VW trickery was discovered by a third party, which then passed it along a chain of contacts until it reached CARB and the EPA.
(We've heard through the grapevine that ICCT shared its results with a Detroit Three automaker, which was actually the tipster to the EPA, but we've not been able to verify that--so treat it as rumor until proven otherwise.)"
The more important question is why didn't VW discover the problem? Did they not try to field test one of the 11 million cars to see if the controls worked? Oh wait, they were CHEATING!!!!!!!!!!
GM's ignition switch fiasco managed to rack up many more kills to VW's ZERO. Not a soul being prosecuted for that longer cover up!? They even acknowledged that when they put the issue into bankruptcy, where compensation is settled for mere pennies on the dollar, in effect dismissed!? As part of bankruptcy settlement, GM also has the right to dismiss ANY claim.
Of course I've written about the local utility company blowing up a neighborhood and it in effect over time getting the regulators to be able to raise the rates( more $$$'s, ) as a result of blowing it up.
Coincidentally, not a soul being prosecuted there!?
Speaking of blowing things up and KILLING people! Anybody being prosecuted for the Takata airbag thing ? What is that 32 million samples ?
Was curious to see how the forum was handling the dieselemissionsgate. Started looking at posts from the middle of the month. As I expected some people were in denial. After scanning a few dozen posts I see that some people are blaming; CARB, EPA, Obama, their dog (ate their homework), the sun that got in the eyes of the engineers, the system, ocean ships, and just about everybody but the people at VW.
Ironically, we purchased a used VW Passat two months ago. It has the 1.8L RUG engine. Never considered getting a diesel. We would have spent more to get less. The 1.8L will be cheaper to drive as gasoline is down to $2.40 a gallon. Diesel prices are about the same. The cost of the diesel Passat would have been higher if we kept the car a year, five years or 20 years.
Had we been in the market for a vehicle now we would probably pick a new 15 Accord LX instead. Anyway, what is done is done.
About two weeks ago I was walking the lot of the new VW dealership and noticed a lack of cars. At first I didn't make the connection between the stop sales from VW and the lack of cars. I wonder if VW is going to pay the dealers for their trouble?
Denial? Hardly. Spades a spade. When agencies are asleep at the wheel, supposedly guarding the public health, when they're really not, whose in denial? Are you following the Sgt Schultz model? See my chicken little post, you first paragraph seems to to be a birds of a feather posse! Welcome back!
So what has you convinced that VW ( or any other OEM for that matter, gas, gas hybrid, EV, etc.) didn't cheat on rug engines also? It is commonly know mpg efforts are highly competitive in the industry. Oh yes, yours passed smog with flying colors, too? Welcome to the club. So did mine. If you haven't picked up that the system is set up TO be gamed, you got your head totally in the sand. If you think Volkswagen is the only one, I can respect that opinion. But however, extreme naïveté comes to mind.
I don't think there can be any doubt that out of three that they ( West Virginia, et al) tested, two "failed ". What they have NOT done is test three like model gassers to see what the results would be. In the best case, it would be the control.
So you test two samples and you can now make a scientific conclusion that 100% of 500,000 to 11M are equally so? If so, complete idiocy comes to mind here. In the worst case, a random sample needs to be tested to see if they fail, like mine, barring a more scientifically valid sample.
....So you test two samples and you can now make a scientific conclusion that 100% of 500,000 to 11M are equally so? If so, complete idiocy comes to mind here. In the worst case, a random sample needs to be tested to see if they fail, like mine, barring a more scientifically valid sample.
Once engineer Daniel Carder and others at W. Virginia University passed on their findings to CARB and the EPA, CARB did their own tests to confirm the results. Once they were confirmed, CARB and the EPA kept asking VW why the real world results didn't match the dyno tests. Finally, VW itself admitted that they rigged at least 11 million cars. This all took place over about two years. No need to do a huge statistical sample when VW has admitted it cheated on the tests and falsified data.
from The Atlantic:
"The Academic Paper That Broke the Volkswagen Scandal Bouree Lam, SEP 25, 2015
....In 2012, a group of researchers at West Virginia University won a $50,000 grant from the International Council on Clean Transportation to do performance testing on clean diesel cars. Arvind Thiruvengadam, a research assistant professor in mechanical and aerospace engineering, told NPR this week that the team was merely excited do the research—which involved driving the clean diesel cars outside the lab—and write a journal paper based on the data. They never expected that they would discover one of the biggest frauds in automotive history.
When Thiruvengadam and his colleagues tested Volkswagen’s clean diesel cars, they found discrepancies up to 35 times the expected emissions levels. The researchers suspected cheating, but couldn’t be sure. David Carder, another researcher on the West Virginia University team, told Reuters that the fallout at hand is surprising because this data was made public over a year and a half ago.
The stakes were upped when the Volkswagen cars in question were tested by the California Air Resources Board (CARB) in an investigation starting May of last year, and the CARB and EPA started discussions with Volkswagen on why there were such discrepancies. Volkswagen insisted to EPA officials that the discrepancies were due to a technical issue rather than deliberate cheating. Only when the EPA threatened not to approve Volkswagen’s 2016 clean diesel cars for sale in the U.S. did the company finally fess up."
You are confirming what I am saying with another example. Well, yes, samples are needed. Remember the population ballooned from 500,000 US to 11M world wide?
Why do you need CARB, EPA, et al when this small business West Virginia company/university are the ones getting the results? Indeed if we follow your logic, why do now even need CARB like ww entities? They need to give them another $50,000 or so to do the gasser side. In the real world, like the AQMD, slides show, gassers are a main N0x emitter.
My swag is they really don't want to do that because cheating is probably systemic. Again follow your logic it's probably worldwide systemi again follow your logic it's probably worldwide systemic. Gassers after all are 98%+ of the US PVF . The agencies defacto admitted as such when they said they want to send a message to the industry that shenanigans will not be tolerated. Why do you want to send a message, if the agencies are doing their job or the players are as pure as the driven snow, as they want you to believe ?
So do we think anybody at those agencies will be fired because of this fiasco? Shoot probably promotions are in order.
So you test two samples and you can now make a scientific conclusion that 100% of 500,000 to 11M are equally so? If so, complete idiocy comes to mind here. In the worst case, a random sample needs to be tested to see if they fail, like mine, barring a more scientifically valid sample.
I have to point out that you are leaving out the inconvenient fact that VW confessed to putting the "defeat device" in all 11M. That seems fairly convincing. Kudos for them coming clean though.
I think VW just gave the timeline a little nudge forward.
So far I have read articles where Spain, Germany, New Zealand, Australia and Canada are re-thinking their push for wind and solar. Just read this morning where the Canadians are finding their wind farms are near useless when they need them most. So they are stuck having Gas or coal generators on line to pick up the slack.
Then you have the money issue. You will find it difficult to get smart money involved in Wind or Solar. Which means the tax payers are on the hook. And where do you cut the budget to feed the wind and solar farms. All while the Feds want to give everyone food, housing and health care.
Ask any eagle what they think of Wind Turbines....
We need the EPA to keep the air clean. Industry won't self police themselves.
The agencies need to be funded so they can do their job. Industry fights that.
You got to love the entertainment value here. According to another poster, the industry 90% self certifies. I'm not saying you have to crucify the industry. Nor am I advocate getting rid of the regulatory agencies totally. Bur you know there should be balances.
So you test two samples and you can now make a scientific conclusion that 100% of 500,000 to 11M are equally so? If so, complete idiocy comes to mind here. In the worst case, a random sample needs to be tested to see if they fail, like mine, barring a more scientifically valid sample.
I have to point out that you are leaving out the inconvenient fact that VW confessed to putting the "defeat device" in all 11M. That seems fairly convincing. Kudos for them coming clean though.
Well no, it is factored in? I have said all along,m I don't know if mine is actually in violation or not, if so it's a fraud on me also. CARB smog tests have passed it with flying colors. . So no kudos for coming clean, the bottom line here is fix it to my satisfaction IF it is broken or buy it back. All this come clean crap is code for the proven strategy for screwing the actual people who put money down for them.
So I am glad in the last couple of days, the markets have let me make far more money ( from VW shares) than I have paid VW for all of my diesels.
Thank you for confirming what I am saying with another example. Why do you need CARB, EPA, et al when this small business West Virginia company/university are the ones getting the results? They need to give them another $50,000 or so to do the gasser side. In the real world, like the AQMD, slides show, gassers are a main N0x emitter.
Are you stating this from a true fundamental understanding of the technology?
My swag is they really don't want to do that because cheating is probably systemic. Gassers after all are 98%+ of the PVF .
How about stop guessing and make an effort to learn and really comprehend the technology. With the emission control systems used today, the gasoline engines are not significant producers of NOx, and in fact many models today leave less NOx in the air behind them then what was in the air they had in front of them. This is accomplished in more ways than just the engine controls, but lets stick to just them for the moment. Catalyst efficiency isn't measured directly, it could be but that would be costly and if the present systems in use failed to meet the standards then everyone would be forced to make some changes. There are two ways to test things, direct, and indirect. The ability of a catalytic convertor to reduce NOx can be indirectly tested by directly measuring its ability to store O2, and that's exactly how it is done to many consumers dismay. That P0420, (P0430) test fails if the catalyst cannot store enough O2 which is not just needed to reduce CO and of course HC.
It's a delicate balance in play that makes sure there is enough CO entering the catalyst to reduce NOx and they still have to have enough O2 to oxidize the HC and CO before the exhaust leaves the catalyst. The catalyst has to be able to catch and store NOx, just like it does O2 until some CO passes through for the catalyst to break the NOx apart. It takes a "rich" mixture to breakup the NOx, while it takes a lean mixture to oxidize HC and CO. In the past it was taught that the system has to fluctuate rich/lean to do this and they even had separate beds in the catalysts for that purpose. What they learned is that keeping the A/F ratio right at stioch works the best and at the molecular level if you have a catalyst that can grab and store O2 out of the exhaust stream, you have now made what was left be rich and that way it can reduce any NOx. As mentioned earlier, they used to have two beds, one for reduction and one for oxidation but the processes work through the entire catalyst when the A/F ratio is correct.
The agencies defacto admitted as such when they said they want to send a message to the industry that shenanigans will not be tolerated. Why do you want to send a message, if the agencies are doing their job or the players are as pure as the driven snow, as they want you to believe ?
So do we think anybody at those agencies will be fired because of this fiasco? Shoot probably promotions are in order.
In many ways this is all playing out a lot like the alleged Toyota runaway's. Suddenly everyone is some kind of an expert. One of the previous posters did an excellent job of confusing the diesel selective catalyst reduction systems with how the gasoline systems work. Now could there be some shenanigans at play when nobody is looking? Can't say that it isn't possible but from what we have seen we can't prove that there is either. Having done decades worth of live diagnostics with the gasoline systems there is much more documentation taken from live road tests because we had tools that allowed us to do this. These tools were not developed to use for the diesels and we didn't have any specs to work from anyway. All we can say is that if there were similar tricks at play when we went out on the road to make our five gas measurements, one would expect that would have revealed problems that we wouldn't have been able to solve and there just isn't any data that we have that represents such a situation.
Then in your perfect world, N0x emissions in LA should be NON existent or AQMD declarations are lies, especially for cars,SUV's,light trucks.segment! I mean if you really want to spin it your way, only VW diesels are causing pollution in the category in LA. I would guess even you don't believe that.
VW guilt is assumed. Innocent until proven guilty still exists, I am sure.
The whole release, which is currently not available on VW’s press site but was copied in its entirety by Jalopnik earlier this morning, is written in passive voice, never actually admitting guilt. Based on this language, Volkswagen could say an evil dragon installed the software without its knowledge, and it would not contradict any company language up to this point.
Here is the full statement made by VW. Of course our media manages to fill in all blanks to suit their agenda, whatever it may be.
Volkswagen is working at full speed to clarify irregularities concerning a particular software used in diesel engines. New vehicles from the Volkswagen Group with EU 6 diesel engines currently available in the European Union comply with legal requirements and environmental standards. The software in question does not affect handling, consumption or emissions. This gives clarity to customers and dealers.
Further internal investigations conducted to date have established that the relevant engine management software is also installed in other Volkswagen Group vehicles with diesel engines. For the majority of these engines the software does not have any effect.
Discrepancies relate to vehicles with Type EA 189 engines, involving some eleven million vehicles worldwide. A noticeable deviation between bench test results and actual road use was established solely for this type of engine. Volkswagen is working intensely to eliminate these deviations through technical measures. The company is therefore in contact with the relevant authorities and the German Federal Motor Transport Authority (KBA – Kraftfahrtbundesamt).
To cover the necessary service measures and other efforts to win back the trust of our customers, Volkswagen plans to set aside a provision of some 6.5 billion EUR recognized in the profit and loss statement in the third quarter of the current fiscal year. Due to the ongoing investigations the amounts estimated may be subject to revaluation.
Earnings targets for the Group for 2015 will be adjusted accordingly.
Volkswagen does not tolerate any kind of violation of laws whatsoever. It is and remains the top priority of the Board of Management to win back lost trust and to avert damage to our customers. The Group will inform the public on the further progress of the investigations constantly and transparently.
So for example if I did my math correctly VW has set aside €591 for each affected car. So it will be interesting to see what percentage (of the €591's ) actually goes to fix the owner's machines .
So if the potential fines exceed this amount, the governments will make more money than the owners. If so, we have to say it would have been a very successful witchhunt .
And yeah, there's a lot of artful language floating around on the various links on that page.
"Berthold Huber, Deputy Chairman of the Supervisory Board, said: "The test manipulations are a moral and political disaster for Volkswagen. The unlawful behavior of engineers and technicians involved in engine development shocked Volkswagen just as much as it shocked the public."
"As Volkswagen Pushed to Be No. 1, Ambitions Fueled a Scandal By DANNY HAKIM, AARON M. KESSLER and JACK EWINGSEPT. 26, 2015
....By 2014, the California regulators determined what to do next. First, they alerted their federal counterparts at the E.P.A. Then, they opened an investigation. “We brought in Volkswagen and showed them our findings,” said Stanley Young, a spokesman for the California Air Resources Board. “We asked them, ‘How do you explain this?’ ”
Volkswagen fired back. “They tried to poke holes in our study and its methods, saying we didn’t know what we were doing,” Mr. Thiruvengadam said. “They were very aggressive.”
The company offered many explanations: Weather conditions. Driving styles. Technicalities that it claimed the researchers and regulators did not understand.
“There was always some story, some reason they’d come up with each time,” Mr. Young said. “Meeting after meeting, they would try to explain it away, and we’d go back to the lab and try again. But we’d get the same results.”
The back-and-forth lasted for months. Finally, in April, Volkswagen made an offer: It would conduct a voluntary recall, or service campaign, to fix the problem in certain model year 2010 to 2014 diesel vehicles.
Regulators got the software update for their test vehicles and returned to the lab. The results were not good. “It didn’t solve the problem,” Mr. Young said.
Confronted again, Volkswagen continued to maintain that there was a problem with the testers, not the vehicles.
California regulators changed tack, examining the company’s software. Modern automobiles operate using millions of lines of computer code. One day last summer, the regulators made a startling discovery: A subroutine, or parallel set of instructions, was secretly being sent by the computer to what seemed to be the emissions controls.
Regulators were floored. Could Volkswagen be trying something similar to what the heavy-truck industry did to manipulate emissions tests in the 1990s?
Regulators set out to cheat the cheat, tweaking lab test parameters to trick the car into thinking it was on the road. The Volkswagens began spewing nitrogen oxide far above the legal limit.
Government officials then increased the pressure on the company, threatening to withhold approval for its 2016 Volkswagen and Audi diesel models. According to the E.P.A., that is what forced Volkswagen’s hand. On Sept. 3, a group of senior engineers admitted what the regulators had suspected: The company had installed defeat devices on nearly 500,000 diesel vehicles sold in the United States. In a presentation, they admitted that the software subroutine had been added to vehicles going back to the 2009 model year...."
Then in your perfect world, N0x emissions in LA should be NON existent or AQMD declarations are lies, especially for cars,SUV's,light trucks.segment! I mean if you really want to spin it your way, only VW diesels are causing pollution in the category in LA. I would guess even you don't believe that.
What s the average age of the automobiles on the road in LA? What does it take, some 25-30 years to turn the fleet over?
Interesting to see how the [non-permissible content removed]'s at VW management thought they will never get caught
They did not count on a European entity hiring specialists to test their cars. The EPA and CARB Fascists were not smart enough to figure it out on their own. Probably took a German engineer at CAFEE to catch them.
Still does not come close to GM and their knowingly using a defective ignition switch that killed at least 124 people over at least 10 years. No one went to prison on that deception.
Reminds me of Eduard Rochsmann in the movie "Odessa File " . An ex-[non-permissible content removed] who heads an industrial conglomerate and all the time secretly attending [non-permissible content removed] reunion parties
GM is an American company so they get a pass. Why should a [non-permissible content removed] founded company get a pass for cheating in the USA ?
This used one is listed at just about what fixing my old one would cost. The difference between tools like this one and what you really need to match the FTP testing is that this tool measures and reports via a percentage while the FTP collects and weighs everything that comes out of the tail pipe during the test. Again, this tool is not designed to be used in a diesel application but worked OK for gasoline engine diagnostics. The particulates coming from a diesel are an important part of the data, and they would have to be filtered out to try to protect this tool.
.... Still does not come close to GM and their knowingly using a defective ignition switch that killed at least 124 people over at least 10 years. No one went to prison on that deception.
from The Guardian UK:
"VW scandal caused nearly 1m tonnes of extra pollution, analysis shows • Emissions could have far greater impact in Europe, where almost half passenger cars are diesel, than the US
...."[In the US it would be] nowhere near the effect it would have in this country and in the rest of Europe for that matter,” he said. In the UK, Williams added, emissions from diesel cars cause roughly 5,800 premature deaths each year. “If you were to make the cars emit at the legal limit you could reduce those deaths by at least a factor of two and maybe more. Maybe a factor of five.”
Europe gets its acts together after having colluded with the car manufacturers for decades.
No different here. It has only been the last few years that CA even bothered with diesels. Even though we have a very large number of diesel PU trucks. Most have their emissions pulled off and stuck in the garage for the semi annual test.
Just like the EU where they fudge on the emissions, here they don't even stop trucks coming up from Mexico blowing black smoke. But let some poor dude buy a tiny diesel car to cut back on fuel expenses, and he suddenly becomes the pariah. All the eco wienies with Prius act self righteous. Well they can rip the steering wheel of my diesel SUV from my cold dead fingers. I don't have a carbon footprint you can see compared to eco nuts like De Caprio and Al Gore. What a sick [non-permissible content removed] country.
So you test two samples and you can now make a scientific conclusion that 100% of 500,000 to 11M are equally so? If so, complete idiocy comes to mind here. In the worst case, a random sample needs to be tested to see if they fail, like mine, barring a more scientifically valid sample.
I have to point out that you are leaving out the inconvenient fact that VW confessed to putting the "defeat device" in all 11M. That seems fairly convincing. Kudos for them coming clean though.
You missed the part where EPA held a gun to their head and said they would not grant VW a “certificate of conformity” for the 2016 cars. Game, set, match.....
Kudos, not likely.
And to answer the previous quote. Complete idiocy does come to mind - that of VW.
I think VW just gave the timeline a little nudge forward.
So far I have read articles where Spain, Germany, New Zealand, Australia and Canada are re-thinking their push for wind and solar. Just read this morning where the Canadians are finding their wind farms are near useless when they need them most. So they are stuck having Gas or coal generators on line to pick up the slack.
Then you have the money issue. You will find it difficult to get smart money involved in Wind or Solar. Which means the tax payers are on the hook. And where do you cut the budget to feed the wind and solar farms. All while the Feds want to give everyone food, housing and health care.
Ask any eagle what they think of Wind Turbines....
http://www.eia.gov/forecasts/steo/report/renew_co2.cfm EIA expects continued growth in utility-scale solar power generation, which is projected to average 89 gigawatthours per day (GWh/d) in 2016. Wind capacity, which grew by 8% in 2014, is forecast to increase by 12% in 2015 and by 13% in 2016.
Ask any raccoon or deer what they think of vehicles and roads.... Ask any bird what they think of glass windows....
Taxpayers are also on the hook for all the oil and gas subsidies.
Thank you for confirming what I am saying with another example. Why do you need CARB, EPA, et al when this small business West Virginia company/university are the ones getting the results? They need to give them another $50,000 or so to do the gasser side. In the real world, like the AQMD, slides show, gassers are a main N0x emitter.
Are you stating this from a true fundamental understanding of the technology?
My swag is they really don't want to do that because cheating is probably systemic. Gassers after all are 98%+ of the PVF .
How about stop guessing and make an effort to learn and really comprehend the technology. With the emission control systems used today, the gasoline engines are not significant producers of NOx, and in fact many models today leave less NOx in the air behind them then what was in the air they had in front of them. This is accomplished in more ways than just the engine controls, but lets stick to just them for the moment. Catalyst efficiency isn't measured directly, it could be but that would be costly and if the present systems in use failed to meet the standards then everyone would be forced to make some changes. There are two ways to test things, direct, and indirect. The ability of a catalytic convertor to reduce NOx can be indirectly tested by directly measuring its ability to store O2, and that's exactly how it is done to many consumers dismay. That P0420, (P0430) test fails if the catalyst cannot store enough O2 which is not just needed to reduce CO and of course HC.
It's a delicate balance in play that makes sure there is enough CO entering the catalyst to reduce NOx and they still have to have enough O2 to oxidize the HC and CO before the exhaust leaves the catalyst. The catalyst has to be able to catch and store NOx, just like it does O2 until some CO passes through for the catalyst to break the NOx apart. It takes a "rich" mixture to breakup the NOx, while it takes a lean mixture to oxidize HC and CO. In the past it was taught that the system has to fluctuate rich/lean to do this and they even had separate beds in the catalysts for that purpose. What they learned is that keeping the A/F ratio right at stioch works the best and at the molecular level if you have a catalyst that can grab and store O2 out of the exhaust stream, you have now made what was left be rich and that way it can reduce any NOx. As mentioned earlier, they used to have two beds, one for reduction and one for oxidation but the processes work through the entire catalyst when the A/F ratio is correct.
The agencies defacto admitted as such when they said they want to send a message to the industry that shenanigans will not be tolerated. Why do you want to send a message, if the agencies are doing their job or the players are as pure as the driven snow, as they want you to believe ?
So do we think anybody at those agencies will be fired because of this fiasco? Shoot probably promotions are in order.
In many ways this is all playing out a lot like the alleged Toyota runaway's. Suddenly everyone is some kind of an expert. One of the previous posters did an excellent job of confusing the diesel selective catalyst reduction systems with how the gasoline systems work. Now could there be some shenanigans at play when nobody is looking? Can't say that it isn't possible but from what we have seen we can't prove that there is either. Having done decades worth of live diagnostics with the gasoline systems there is much more documentation taken from live road tests because we had tools that allowed us to do this. These tools were not developed to use for the diesels and we didn't have any specs to work from anyway. All we can say is that if there were similar tricks at play when we went out on the road to make our five gas measurements, one would expect that would have revealed problems that we wouldn't have been able to solve and there just isn't any data that we have that represents such a situation.
Good post. Too bad some people do not want to hear about the facts. As James Randi said: "Those who believe without reason cannot be convinced by reason."
>It's commonly known that the heavy duty big rigs are almost 100% diesel. >They have none of the emissions controls that diesel cars are required to have.
“EPA is on the job,” said Luke Tonachel, director of the clean vehicles and fuels project at the Natural Resources Defense Council. “This expansion of testing is another signal that cheating will not be tolerated.”
If all the lawsuits, fines, and lost business could be added up, we can probably guess that the $7 billion that VW has so far set aside for this will be only a fraction of the total costs. Triple that would probably be closer to the mark. In other words, perhaps $20 billion or so that VW could have used to develop new technologies, and new vehicles, will instead go down the drain.
In the long run, VW will probably become a better company as a result, but what a painful lesson. VW does have a lot of good engineers, but if they fire everyone who had a role in this, or should have known, are they going to have big gaps in their talent bench? But they can and will, we can guess, go on a hiring spree for new graduates of engineering schools, and senior engineers from other companies, who will be able to help VW make a fresh start.
The big question remains: Can VW engineer and build an affordable diesel vehicle that follows the rules and has good power and good mpg? Can they actually deliver the clean diesel that they've been advertising all of these years?
If they can't, perhaps it shows what their incentive was to cheat, in spite of the incredible risks that now threaten the financial health of VW.
If they can, it will show the utter folly of the road they've gone down.
My guess, and it is just pure speculation, is that this mess will begin the very slow phasing out of diesels as an option in America for passenger vehicles, although probably higher end diesels from Audi, MB, and BMW will still be available for several years. Some articles have said that hybrids will be the main beneficiaries, but that seems misguided. Gas engine vehicles have improved significantly in terms of mpg. The 2016 gas Passat, for instance, is rated 38 mpg on the highway, which is pretty close to a 2015 diesel Passat, which is rated 42 on the highway.
The difference in fuel costs between a diesel and gas Passat at current fuel prices is only about $100 a year, even if driving c. 15,000 miles annually. The price difference between the two vehicles was at least $3000, meaning it would take about 30 years of driving to make that up.
Diesels have awesome torque that way outperformed that ancient naturally aspirated 5 cylinder engine that this generation of Passat started with. But now that the Passat has a modern and powerful 1.8 turbo as standard, which also has impressive torque, the performance argument for diesel is also muted.
For diesel fans and followers, I hope diesel remains an option. But the future of diesel passenger vehicles in the US obviously looks uncertain compared to just a month ago....
That is an impressive picture. Thanks for positing it. As someone else mentioned, WVU's Center for Alternative Fuels, Engines and Emission (CAFEE) spent years and probably millions of dollars developing its instruments. It's initial funding back in the 1990s was in part from a settlement of an earlier diesel defeat device problem involving Caterpillar and other companies. Some of their fines went to CAFEE, as I understand it. I wonder if some of VW's fines will someday also help fund CAFEE?
"How a university lab helped unearth the VW emissions scandal by Autocar Pro News Desk Sep 25, 2015
....This is not the first time researchers at CAFEE have been involved in off-cycle emissions research. In the late 1990s, CAFEE was contracted to conduct in-use emissions testing for heavy-duty engines. As part of this work the center developed the world’s first mobile on-board diesel emissions testing system and pioneered the development of associated testing protocols necessary for accurate in-use emissions testing. CAFEE’s research team of faculty, students, and technical staff is one of the most experienced in the nation in the characterization of emissions and the performance of heavy-duty vehicles."
If all the lawsuits, fines, and lost business could be added up, we can probably guess that the $7 billion that VW has so far set aside for this is only a fraction of the total costs. Triple that would probably be closer to the mark. In other words, perhaps $20 billion or so that VW could have used to develop new technologies, and new vehicles, will instead go down the drain.
In the long run, VW will probably become a better company as a result, but what a painful lesson. VW does have a lot of good engineers, but if they fire everyone who had a role in this, or should have known, are they going to have big gaps in their talent bench? But they can and will, we can guess, go on a hiring spree for new graduates of engineering schools, and senior engineers from other companies, who will be able to help VW make a fresh start.
The part overlooked by all of this is the consumer ultimately has to pay those fines. The consumers will ultimately have to pay for the "fixes". While everyone is pointing fingers the bill to the public at large is increasing and just what is going to be done with that money?
Europe gets its acts together after having colluded with the car manufacturers for decades.
No different here. It has only been the last few years that CA even bothered with diesels. Even though we have a very large number of diesel PU trucks. Most have their emissions pulled off and stuck in the garage for the semi annual test.
Just like the EU where they fudge on the emissions, here they don't even stop trucks coming up from Mexico blowing black smoke. But let some poor dude buy a tiny diesel car to cut back on fuel expenses, and he suddenly becomes the pariah. All the eco wienies with Prius act self righteous. Well they can rip the steering wheel of my diesel SUV from my cold dead fingers. I don't have a carbon footprint you can see compared to eco nuts like De Caprio and Al Gore. What a sick [non-permissible content removed] country.
Ok !!
So now that the Pandora's Box has been opened , the next target will be all the diesel semi big trucks and the semi big rigs entering from Mexico. But holding up Mexican trucks at the border while they are being tested for emissions will cause a trade war between USA and Mexico involving the NAFTA , so it ain't gonna happen.
The sense of betrayal that some VW diesel owners feel is significant enough that it's difficult to imagine how Volkswagen will ever be able to win them back, short of giving them a free car. For example, here's an op ed from a few days ago from the New York Times:
"Me and My Jetta: How VW Broke My Heart SEPT. 25, 2015 Richard Conniff
THE day I went to pick up my new Volkswagen Jetta TDI in March 2009, the salesman had me sit in the driver’s seat while he introduced the car’s various features. The engine was softly idling, and as I reached to shut it off, he told me not to bother. The minimal amount of fuel this car burned — sipped, in the automotive argot — was its great selling point. That, and the almost complete removal of hazardous exhaust that had made earlier diesel vehicles notorious.
This was that new thing in the world, “clean diesel,” using ingenious German technology to keep nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions out of kids’ lungs, and low enough to meet even California’s stringent pollution standards. A committee of jurors, including the executive director of the Sierra Club and the president of the Natural Resources Defense Council, had just called it the “Green Car of the Year.” A review in this newspaper described the Jetta TDI, persuasively, as “easy on money, fuel and the planet."
....Then I drove off the lot and fell almost instantly in love. The Jetta TDI was fun to drive, unlike the plodding family Volvo it replaced. I fell particularly for what I thought of as “the number.” VW designers had cleverly placed the miles per gallon indicator front and center in the dashboard where other cars put the speedometer....
My affection for my sweet little Jetta continued unabated, despite several costly mechanical failures, until last weekend. That’s when I discovered, along with the rest of the world, that the Volkswagen’s celebrated German technology was in fact a huge fraud designed to dupe regulators and cheat the owners of 11 million vehicles....
Ozone clings over urbanized areas — notably the Boston-to-Washington corridor and much of California — and the deaths it causes are a lot more real than the “kills” taking place around a Volkswagen conference table. Human-caused ozone pollution inflames and injures lungs, aggravates cardiovascular disorders, and contributes to the 500,000 or so asthma hospitalizations every year, many of them among children under 15. According to a 2013 study in the journal Environmental Research Letters, it also kills about 470,000 people a year worldwide.
I stayed awake much of Monday night fretting about this, and about a poisonous stew of corporate scandals...."
One thing that's interesting about that op ed was the affection he had for his diesel Jetta "despite several costly mechanical failures." Of course, he also admits that VW in essence bribed him:
"As it happens, I had met the people who were running Volkswagen and its sister company Audi at about the time my car was being designed, and I liked them. They paid me handsomely to give a talk, based on one of my books, describing what the natural world can teach us about workplace and customer behaviors."
And so after VW paid him "handsomely," he had to turn around and spend some of that money on his VW car.
Anyway, for decades, at least compared to cars from Toyota, Honda, etc., VWs have been less reliable more and expensive to own long-term.
For this guy a VW was fun to drive, and he thought it was also a "clean diesel," and so he was somehow forgiving of the costly mechanical failures. Most aren't so forgiving.
And now that "clean diesel" is also off the table for the time being, we can guess that VW's market share in the US will decline significantly.
How can VW even respond? I think they should follow the Hyundai model, by offering 5 year bumper to bumper coverage, and 10 year/100k miles powertrain for the original owner. That way, even if VW's aren't as reliable as most competitors, the original owner would be covered.
Yes, this would cost VW a lot, but if they want to have shot at remaining relevant in the US, I think they need to take some bold steps.
Indeed, the dirty commercial rigs will be targeted when hell becomes chilly. Gotta be "business friendly". It's not just a border issue either, I am far north of that border and see stinkers every day.
I'd be more concerned about emissions from gas powered lawn equipment than these VWs. But again, "business friendly" - gotta keep costs low so your local bootstrappers can buy the new Escalade they deserve.
I'm going to take my fintail out for a spin today. Just turning the key probably cancels out a few dozen smug Prius cult members, but the car predates emissions controls, so it's OK
So now that the Pandora's Box has been opened , the next target will be all the diesel semi big trucks and the semi big rigs entering from Mexico. But holding up Mexican trucks at the border while they are being tested for emissions will cause a trade war between USA and Mexico involving the NAFTA , so it ain't gonna happen.
If you live in California, the Air Resources Board actually has worked for years on big rig diesels, boats, outdoor vehicles, and probably even lawn mowers. Those other sources at this point still pollute more than cars, but they are better than they used to be.
Indeed, the dirty commercial rigs will be targeted when hell becomes chilly. Gotta be "business friendly". It's not just a border issue either, I am far north of that border and see stinkers every day.
I'd be more concerned about emissions from gas powered lawn equipment than these VWs. But again, "business friendly" - gotta keep costs low so your local bootstrappers can buy the new Escalade they deserve.
I'm going to take my fintail out for a spin today. Just turning the key probably cancels out a few dozen smug Prius cult members, but the car predates emissions controls, so it's OK
So now that the Pandora's Box has been opened , the next target will be all the diesel semi big trucks and the semi big rigs entering from Mexico. But holding up Mexican trucks at the border while they are being tested for emissions will cause a trade war between USA and Mexico involving the NAFTA , so it ain't gonna happen.
Well The AQMD website indicates that most of the 11 emitters have been effectively given get out of jail free cards by the federal government .
Another sincere apology from Michael Horn. I'm glad they didn't fire him. It will be a long road back for VW, but this seems like a good first step.
As ruking1 said a while ago, a crisis can often made made into an opportunity. VW has broken through the clutter in the worst way possible, but now they do have the attention of both VW customers and many beyond. If they use this moment to make the local VW dealer a compelling place to shop for a vehicle because they stand behind their products, they might recover faster than some are predicting right now.
At VW's current FAQ on their diesels, two of the questions and answers are:
"How soon will the remedy be available, and how am I going to be compensated for this? We cannot offer a firm date now because we need to work on the remedy and review it with the government. We are proceeding as quickly as possible.
I want to turn in my vehicle – can I and how? We are cooperating closely with the regulatory authorities to develop a remedy as quickly as possible. We ask for your patience as we work to get this done right."
Comments
http://www.autoblog.com/2014/06/03/reuters-claiming-74-people-killed-faulty-gm-ignition-switch/
Of course I've written about the local utility company blowing up a neighborhood and it in effect over time getting the regulators to be able to raise the rates( more $$$'s, ) as a result of blowing it up.
Coincidentally, not a soul being prosecuted there!?
Speaking of blowing things up and KILLING people! Anybody being prosecuted for the Takata airbag thing ? What is that 32 million samples ?
Ironically, we purchased a used VW Passat two months ago. It has the 1.8L RUG engine. Never considered getting a diesel. We would have spent more to get less. The 1.8L will be cheaper to drive as gasoline is down to $2.40 a gallon. Diesel prices are about the same. The cost of the diesel Passat would have been higher if we kept the car a year, five years or 20 years.
Had we been in the market for a vehicle now we would probably pick a new 15 Accord LX instead. Anyway, what is done is done.
About two weeks ago I was walking the lot of the new VW dealership and noticed a lack of cars. At first I didn't make the connection between the stop sales from VW and the lack of cars. I wonder if VW is going to pay the dealers for their trouble?
On another note, http://www.oph.hotlineprinting.com/2015-08-05-DakPrairie.html has an article on the new diesel refinery losing big money - $546.8 million loss. The new diesel production and lower activity in the Bakken has made a big difference in diesel prices. http://fuelgaugereport.aaa.com/states/north dakota/ shows that diesel went from $3.847 to $2.485. However RUG came down almost as much $3.402 to $2.366.
So what has you convinced that VW ( or any other OEM for that matter, gas, gas hybrid, EV, etc.) didn't cheat on rug engines also? It is commonly know mpg efforts are highly competitive in the industry. Oh yes, yours passed smog with flying colors, too? Welcome to the club. So did mine. If you haven't picked up that the system is set up TO be gamed, you got your head totally in the sand. If you think Volkswagen is the only one, I can respect that opinion. But however, extreme naïveté comes to mind.
I don't think there can be any doubt that out of three that they ( West Virginia, et al) tested, two "failed ". What they have NOT done is test three like model gassers to see what the results would be. In the best case, it would be the control.
So you test two samples and you can now make a scientific conclusion that 100% of 500,000 to 11M are equally so? If so, complete idiocy comes to mind here. In the worst case, a random sample needs to be tested to see if they fail, like mine, barring a more scientifically valid sample.
from The Atlantic:
"The Academic Paper That Broke the Volkswagen Scandal
Bouree Lam, SEP 25, 2015
....In 2012, a group of researchers at West Virginia University won a $50,000 grant from the International Council on Clean Transportation to do performance testing on clean diesel cars. Arvind Thiruvengadam, a research assistant professor in mechanical and aerospace engineering, told NPR this week that the team was merely excited do the research—which involved driving the clean diesel cars outside the lab—and write a journal paper based on the data. They never expected that they would discover one of the biggest frauds in automotive history.
When Thiruvengadam and his colleagues tested Volkswagen’s clean diesel cars, they found discrepancies up to 35 times the expected emissions levels. The researchers suspected cheating, but couldn’t be sure. David Carder, another researcher on the West Virginia University team, told Reuters that the fallout at hand is surprising because this data was made public over a year and a half ago.
The stakes were upped when the Volkswagen cars in question were tested by the California Air Resources Board (CARB) in an investigation starting May of last year, and the CARB and EPA started discussions with Volkswagen on why there were such discrepancies. Volkswagen insisted to EPA officials that the discrepancies were due to a technical issue rather than deliberate cheating. Only when the EPA threatened not to approve Volkswagen’s 2016 clean diesel cars for sale in the U.S. did the company finally fess up."
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/09/volkswagen-scandal-cheating-emission-virginia-epa/407425/
Why do you need CARB, EPA, et al when this small business West Virginia company/university are the ones getting the results? Indeed if we follow your logic, why do now even need CARB like ww entities? They need to give them another $50,000 or so to do the gasser side. In the real world, like the AQMD, slides show, gassers are a main N0x emitter.
My swag is they really don't want to do that because cheating is probably systemic. Again follow your logic it's probably worldwide systemi again follow your logic it's probably worldwide systemic. Gassers after all are 98%+ of the US PVF . The agencies defacto admitted as such when they said they want to send a message to the industry that shenanigans will not be tolerated. Why do you want to send a message, if the agencies are doing their job or the players are as pure as the driven snow, as they want you to believe ?
So do we think anybody at those agencies will be fired because of this fiasco? Shoot probably promotions are in order.
The agencies need to be funded so they can do their job. Industry fights that.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Then you have the money issue. You will find it difficult to get smart money involved in Wind or Solar. Which means the tax payers are on the hook. And where do you cut the budget to feed the wind and solar farms. All while the Feds want to give everyone food, housing and health care.
Ask any eagle what they think of Wind Turbines....
So I am glad in the last couple of days, the markets have let me make far more money ( from VW shares) than I have paid VW for all of my diesels.
It's a delicate balance in play that makes sure there is enough CO entering the catalyst to reduce NOx and they still have to have enough O2 to oxidize the HC and CO before the exhaust leaves the catalyst. The catalyst has to be able to catch and store NOx, just like it does O2 until some CO passes through for the catalyst to break the NOx apart. It takes a "rich" mixture to breakup the NOx, while it takes a lean mixture to oxidize HC and CO. In the past it was taught that the system has to fluctuate rich/lean to do this and they even had separate beds in the catalysts for that purpose. What they learned is that keeping the A/F ratio right at stioch works the best and at the molecular level if you have a catalyst that can grab and store O2 out of the exhaust stream, you have now made what was left be rich and that way it can reduce any NOx. As mentioned earlier, they used to have two beds, one for reduction and one for oxidation but the processes work through the entire catalyst when the A/F ratio is correct. In many ways this is all playing out a lot like the alleged Toyota runaway's. Suddenly everyone is some kind of an expert. One of the previous posters did an excellent job of confusing the diesel selective catalyst reduction systems with how the gasoline systems work. Now could there be some shenanigans at play when nobody is looking? Can't say that it isn't possible but from what we have seen we can't prove that there is either. Having done decades worth of live diagnostics with the gasoline systems there is much more documentation taken from live road tests because we had tools that allowed us to do this. These tools were not developed to use for the diesels and we didn't have any specs to work from anyway. All we can say is that if there were similar tricks at play when we went out on the road to make our five gas measurements, one would expect that would have revealed problems that we wouldn't have been able to solve and there just isn't any data that we have that represents such a situation.
The whole release, which is currently not available on VW’s press site but was copied in its entirety by Jalopnik earlier this morning, is written in passive voice, never actually admitting guilt. Based on this language, Volkswagen could say an evil dragon installed the software without its knowledge, and it would not contradict any company language up to this point.
http://www.wired.com/2015/09/vw-emissions-deception-11-million-cars/
Volkswagen is working at full speed to clarify irregularities concerning a particular software used in diesel engines. New vehicles from the Volkswagen Group with EU 6 diesel engines currently available in the European Union comply with legal requirements and environmental standards. The software in question does not affect handling, consumption or emissions. This gives clarity to customers and dealers.
Further internal investigations conducted to date have established that the relevant engine management software is also installed in other Volkswagen Group vehicles with diesel engines. For the majority of these engines the software does not have any effect.
Discrepancies relate to vehicles with Type EA 189 engines, involving some eleven million vehicles worldwide. A noticeable deviation between bench test results and actual road use was established solely for this type of engine. Volkswagen is working intensely to eliminate these deviations through technical measures. The company is therefore in contact with the relevant authorities and the German Federal Motor Transport Authority (KBA – Kraftfahrtbundesamt).
To cover the necessary service measures and other efforts to win back the trust of our customers, Volkswagen plans to set aside a provision of some 6.5 billion EUR recognized in the profit and loss statement in the third quarter of the current fiscal year. Due to the ongoing investigations the amounts estimated may be subject to revaluation.
Earnings targets for the Group for 2015 will be adjusted accordingly.
Volkswagen does not tolerate any kind of violation of laws whatsoever. It is and remains the top priority of the Board of Management to win back lost trust and to avert damage to our customers. The Group will inform the public on the further progress of the investigations constantly and transparently.
So if the potential fines exceed this amount, the governments will make more money than the owners. If so, we have to say it would have been a very successful witchhunt .
And yeah, there's a lot of artful language floating around on the various links on that page.
"Berthold Huber, Deputy Chairman of the Supervisory Board, said: "The test manipulations are a moral and political disaster for Volkswagen. The unlawful behavior of engineers and technicians involved in engine development shocked Volkswagen just as much as it shocked the public."
"As Volkswagen Pushed to Be No. 1, Ambitions Fueled a Scandal
By DANNY HAKIM, AARON M. KESSLER and JACK EWINGSEPT. 26, 2015
....By 2014, the California regulators determined what to do next. First, they alerted their federal counterparts at the E.P.A. Then, they opened an investigation. “We brought in Volkswagen and showed them our findings,” said Stanley Young, a spokesman for the California Air Resources Board. “We asked them, ‘How do you explain this?’ ”
Volkswagen fired back. “They tried to poke holes in our study and its methods, saying we didn’t know what we were doing,” Mr. Thiruvengadam said. “They were very aggressive.”
The company offered many explanations: Weather conditions. Driving styles. Technicalities that it claimed the researchers and regulators did not understand.
“There was always some story, some reason they’d come up with each time,” Mr. Young said. “Meeting after meeting, they would try to explain it away, and we’d go back to the lab and try again. But we’d get the same results.”
The back-and-forth lasted for months. Finally, in April, Volkswagen made an offer: It would conduct a voluntary recall, or service campaign, to fix the problem in certain model year 2010 to 2014 diesel vehicles.
Regulators got the software update for their test vehicles and returned to the lab. The results were not good. “It didn’t solve the problem,” Mr. Young said.
Confronted again, Volkswagen continued to maintain that there was a problem with the testers, not the vehicles.
California regulators changed tack, examining the company’s software. Modern automobiles operate using millions of lines of computer code. One day last summer, the regulators made a startling discovery: A subroutine, or parallel set of instructions, was secretly being sent by the computer to what seemed to be the emissions controls.
Regulators were floored. Could Volkswagen be trying something similar to what the heavy-truck industry did to manipulate emissions tests in the 1990s?
Regulators set out to cheat the cheat, tweaking lab test parameters to trick the car into thinking it was on the road. The Volkswagens began spewing nitrogen oxide far above the legal limit.
Government officials then increased the pressure on the company, threatening to withhold approval for its 2016 Volkswagen and Audi diesel models. According to the E.P.A., that is what forced Volkswagen’s hand. On Sept. 3, a group of senior engineers admitted what the regulators had suspected: The company had installed defeat devices on nearly 500,000 diesel vehicles sold in the United States. In a presentation, they admitted that the software subroutine had been added to vehicles going back to the 2009 model year...."
http://www.vox.com/2015/9/23/9383663/vw-emissions-scandal-photo
Still does not come close to GM and their knowingly using a defective ignition switch that killed at least 124 people over at least 10 years. No one went to prison on that deception.
GM is an American company so they get a pass. Why should a [non-permissible content removed] founded company get a pass for cheating in the USA ?
This used one is listed at just about what fixing my old one would cost. The difference between tools like this one and what you really need to match the FTP testing is that this tool measures and reports via a percentage while the FTP collects and weighs everything that comes out of the tail pipe during the test. Again, this tool is not designed to be used in a diesel application but worked OK for gasoline engine diagnostics. The particulates coming from a diesel are an important part of the data, and they would have to be filtered out to try to protect this tool.
from The Guardian UK:
"VW scandal caused nearly 1m tonnes of extra pollution, analysis shows
• Emissions could have far greater impact in Europe, where almost half passenger cars are diesel, than the US
...."[In the US it would be] nowhere near the effect it would have in this country and in the rest of Europe for that matter,” he said. In the UK, Williams added, emissions from diesel cars cause roughly 5,800 premature deaths each year. “If you were to make the cars emit at the legal limit you could reduce those deaths by at least a factor of two and maybe more. Maybe a factor of five.”
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/sep/22/vw-scandal-caused-nearly-1m-tonnes-of-extra-pollution-analysis-shows
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/sep/24/vw-scandal-uk-to-rerun-emissions-tests
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-34347873
Europe gets its acts together after having colluded with the car manufacturers for decades.
Just like the EU where they fudge on the emissions, here they don't even stop trucks coming up from Mexico blowing black smoke. But let some poor dude buy a tiny diesel car to cut back on fuel expenses, and he suddenly becomes the pariah. All the eco wienies with Prius act self righteous. Well they can rip the steering wheel of my diesel SUV from my cold dead fingers. I don't have a carbon footprint you can see compared to eco nuts like De Caprio and Al Gore. What a sick [non-permissible content removed] country.
Kudos, not likely.
And to answer the previous quote. Complete idiocy does come to mind - that of VW.
EIA expects continued growth in utility-scale solar power generation, which is projected to average 89 gigawatthours per day (GWh/d) in 2016.
Wind capacity, which grew by 8% in 2014, is forecast to increase by 12% in 2015 and by 13% in 2016.
Ask any raccoon or deer what they think of vehicles and roads.... Ask any bird what they think of glass windows....
Taxpayers are also on the hook for all the oil and gas subsidies.
>It's commonly known that the heavy duty big rigs are almost 100% diesel.
>They have none of the emissions controls that diesel cars are required to have.
bunk!
"Davy said. “I am now on a limited income, and I can't afford to lose money on this car and buy a new one. This was supposed to be a reputable company.”
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-epa-auto-testing-20150925-story.html
Looking forward to seeing EPA sink their teeth into VW.
In the long run, VW will probably become a better company as a result, but what a painful lesson. VW does have a lot of good engineers, but if they fire everyone who had a role in this, or should have known, are they going to have big gaps in their talent bench? But they can and will, we can guess, go on a hiring spree for new graduates of engineering schools, and senior engineers from other companies, who will be able to help VW make a fresh start.
The big question remains: Can VW engineer and build an affordable diesel vehicle that follows the rules and has good power and good mpg? Can they actually deliver the clean diesel that they've been advertising all of these years?
If they can't, perhaps it shows what their incentive was to cheat, in spite of the incredible risks that now threaten the financial health of VW.
If they can, it will show the utter folly of the road they've gone down.
My guess, and it is just pure speculation, is that this mess will begin the very slow phasing out of diesels as an option in America for passenger vehicles, although probably higher end diesels from Audi, MB, and BMW will still be available for several years. Some articles have said that hybrids will be the main beneficiaries, but that seems misguided. Gas engine vehicles have improved significantly in terms of mpg. The 2016 gas Passat, for instance, is rated 38 mpg on the highway, which is pretty close to a 2015 diesel Passat, which is rated 42 on the highway.
The difference in fuel costs between a diesel and gas Passat at current fuel prices is only about $100 a year, even if driving c. 15,000 miles annually. The price difference between the two vehicles was at least $3000, meaning it would take about 30 years of driving to make that up.
Diesels have awesome torque that way outperformed that ancient naturally aspirated 5 cylinder engine that this generation of Passat started with. But now that the Passat has a modern and powerful 1.8 turbo as standard, which also has impressive torque, the performance argument for diesel is also muted.
For diesel fans and followers, I hope diesel remains an option. But the future of diesel passenger vehicles in the US obviously looks uncertain compared to just a month ago....
"How a university lab helped unearth the VW emissions scandal
by Autocar Pro News Desk Sep 25, 2015
....This is not the first time researchers at CAFEE have been involved in off-cycle emissions research. In the late 1990s, CAFEE was contracted to conduct in-use emissions testing for heavy-duty engines. As part of this work the center developed the world’s first mobile on-board diesel emissions testing system and pioneered the development of associated testing protocols necessary for accurate in-use emissions testing. CAFEE’s research team of faculty, students, and technical staff is one of the most experienced in the nation in the characterization of emissions and the performance of heavy-duty vehicles."
- See more at: http://www.autocarpro.in/news-international/university-lab-led-unearthing-vw-emission-scandal-9373#sthash.bpnRZb8N.dpuf
Ok !!
So now that the Pandora's Box has been opened , the next target will be all the diesel semi big trucks and the semi big rigs entering from Mexico. But holding up Mexican trucks at the border while they are being tested for emissions will cause a trade war between USA and Mexico involving the NAFTA , so it ain't gonna happen.
"Me and My Jetta: How VW Broke My Heart
SEPT. 25, 2015
Richard Conniff
THE day I went to pick up my new Volkswagen Jetta TDI in March 2009, the salesman had me sit in the driver’s seat while he introduced the car’s various features. The engine was softly idling, and as I reached to shut it off, he told me not to bother. The minimal amount of fuel this car burned — sipped, in the automotive argot — was its great selling point. That, and the almost complete removal of hazardous exhaust that had made earlier diesel vehicles notorious.
This was that new thing in the world, “clean diesel,” using ingenious German technology to keep nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions out of kids’ lungs, and low enough to meet even California’s stringent pollution standards. A committee of jurors, including the executive director of the Sierra Club and the president of the Natural Resources Defense Council, had just called it the “Green Car of the Year.” A review in this newspaper described the Jetta TDI, persuasively, as “easy on money, fuel and the planet."
....Then I drove off the lot and fell almost instantly in love. The Jetta TDI was fun to drive, unlike the plodding family Volvo it replaced. I fell particularly for what I thought of as “the number.” VW designers had cleverly placed the miles per gallon indicator front and center in the dashboard where other cars put the speedometer....
My affection for my sweet little Jetta continued unabated, despite several costly mechanical failures, until last weekend. That’s when I discovered, along with the rest of the world, that the Volkswagen’s celebrated German technology was in fact a huge fraud designed to dupe regulators and cheat the owners of 11 million vehicles....
Ozone clings over urbanized areas — notably the Boston-to-Washington corridor and much of California — and the deaths it causes are a lot more real than the “kills” taking place around a Volkswagen conference table. Human-caused ozone pollution inflames and injures lungs, aggravates cardiovascular disorders, and contributes to the 500,000 or so asthma hospitalizations every year, many of them among children under 15. According to a 2013 study in the journal Environmental Research Letters, it also kills about 470,000 people a year worldwide.
I stayed awake much of Monday night fretting about this, and about a poisonous stew of corporate scandals...."
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/27/opinion/sunday/me-and-my-jetta-how-vw-broke-my-heart.html?ref=opinion
"As it happens, I had met the people who were running Volkswagen and its sister company Audi at about the time my car was being designed, and I liked them. They paid me handsomely to give a talk, based on one of my books, describing what the natural world can teach us about workplace and customer behaviors."
And so after VW paid him "handsomely," he had to turn around and spend some of that money on his VW car.
Anyway, for decades, at least compared to cars from Toyota, Honda, etc., VWs have been less reliable more and expensive to own long-term.
For this guy a VW was fun to drive, and he thought it was also a "clean diesel," and so he was somehow forgiving of the costly mechanical failures. Most aren't so forgiving.
And now that "clean diesel" is also off the table for the time being, we can guess that VW's market share in the US will decline significantly.
How can VW even respond? I think they should follow the Hyundai model, by offering 5 year bumper to bumper coverage, and 10 year/100k miles powertrain for the original owner. That way, even if VW's aren't as reliable as most competitors, the original owner would be covered.
Yes, this would cost VW a lot, but if they want to have shot at remaining relevant in the US, I think they need to take some bold steps.
One of the four mayoral candidates is less concerned about wood/coal heat emissions than diesel.
Air quality a divisive issue among candidates for borough mayor (newsminer)
I'd be more concerned about emissions from gas powered lawn equipment than these VWs. But again, "business friendly" - gotta keep costs low so your local bootstrappers can buy the new Escalade they deserve.
I'm going to take my fintail out for a spin today. Just turning the key probably cancels out a few dozen smug Prius cult members, but the car predates emissions controls, so it's OK
http://www.vwdieselinfo.com/
As ruking1 said a while ago, a crisis can often made made into an opportunity. VW has broken through the clutter in the worst way possible, but now they do have the attention of both VW customers and many beyond. If they use this moment to make the local VW dealer a compelling place to shop for a vehicle because they stand behind their products, they might recover faster than some are predicting right now.
"How soon will the remedy be available, and how am I going to be compensated for this?
We cannot offer a firm date now because we need to work on the remedy and review it with the government. We are proceeding as quickly as possible.
I want to turn in my vehicle – can I and how?
We are cooperating closely with the regulatory authorities to develop a remedy as quickly as possible. We ask for your patience as we work to get this done right."
http://www.vwdieselinfo.com/faqs/