I don't think VW can afford this for all markets, but I wonder if in the US a buy back might be available for some at some point?
My guess is a fix for the non-AdBlue vehicles is going to be difficult, costly, expensive—and maybe take 6 months or so to be available. For customers who are upset now, finding a way to get them out of their diesel and into maybe a gas VW seems like it might be a wise idea.
Many are going to want to hang onto their polluting diesels until they are pulled, in Charlton Heston's words, "from my cold, dead hands."
But others would like to wash their hands of this asap. And it happens that VW dealers across the country have an excess of Jetta gas turbos and Passat gas turbos on the lots at the moment. If you can convince the diesel owners that VW's very nice gas turbos are going to give them almost as much torque as on their diesels, while passing emissions, it might help.
Of course, this would assume that VW central can spend several billion dollars trying to make the Americans happy. But if so, perhaps a deal can be made that would also help local VW dealers who are now in such distress?
One possibility might be to give current owners of affected VW diesels "fair market value" for their vehicles, however that might be defined, plus some substantial amount toward a new VW. If you could get current owners to forgo being part of any lawsuit, maybe put c. $8000, on top of all current rebates, on hood? For those unwilling to get another VW, but willing to sign a non-sue agreement, perhaps a cash payment of $5000 for their time and trouble?
Speaking of the VW dogpile, I wonder if there is anything wrong with their gasser 1.8Ts. I see these, especially in aging Audis, putting out visible black smoke - sometimes to the point of leaving soot on the rear bumper. Probably dirtier than a diesel with creative software, or one of the urea tech diesels that will probably be lumped into all this by the media and ignorant consumer mass.
Speaking of the VW dogpile, I wonder if there is anything wrong with their gasser 1.8Ts. I see these, especially in aging Audis, putting out visible black smoke - sometimes to the point of leaving soot on the rear bumper. Probably dirtier than a diesel with creative software, or one of the urea tech diesels that will probably be lumped into all this by the media and ignorant consumer mass.
Yikes. That would add massively to the nightmare if VW's 1.8T gas engines also have defeat software. But since VW was cheating on the diesels, maybe there's a tiny chance they went all in?
"Bosch warned VW about illegal software use in diesel cars, report says Staff report Automotive News September 27, 2015 - 10:00 am ET
MUNICH -- Robert Bosch warned Volkswagen in 2007 that it would be illegal to use engine management software at the heart of the diesels emissions scandal in production cars, German newspaper Bild am Sonntag said.
VW was also warned by one of its own engineers in 2011 about illegal emissions testing practices, a report in the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung's Sunday edition said, citing initial results of a VW internal investigation.
Bild am Sonntag said Bosch supplied diesel software to VW for test purposes but it ended up in vehicles on the road. Bosch wrote to VW saying that such use was unlawful, according to the paper's report, which did not cite sources.
Bosch, the world's biggest supplier, is adding up the cost to its business and reputation of the VW emissions scandal.
A Bosch spokesman today told Reuters that the company's dealings with VW were confidential. VW declined to comment on the details of either newspaper report.
Last week, Bosch said it had delivered components to VW that are now at the center of a probe into rigged emissions tests. The components included delivery and metering modules for exhaust gas treatment and common-rail injection systems.
Responsibility for configuring handling characteristics of these components "lies with Volkswagen," a Bosch spokesman told Automotive News Europe last week.
Bild am Sonntag said the roots of the crisis were planted in 2005 when then-VW brand chief Wolfgang Bernhard wanted VW to develop a new diesel engine for the U.S. market. Bernhard recruited Audi engineer Rudolf Krebs who developed a prototype that performed well in tests in South Africa in 2006, the paper said.
Bernhard and Krebs argued that the only way to make the engine meet U.S. emission standards was to employ in the engine system an AdBlue urea solution used on larger diesel models such as the Passat and Touareg, according to the report.
This would have added a cost of 300 euros ($335 in today's U.S. dollars) per vehicle -- a sum that VW finance officials said was too much at a time when a companywide cost-cutting exercise was under way...."
Zero to 60? Who cares? How many USB ports does it have and does it have adaptive cruise?
I have gone on record for saying that 0 to 60 metrics are practicall meaningless to somebody like me. I think if one really checks things out, it is probably true for most gasser buyers/owners also. This post is for those who say diesels are disadvantaged to sux, because of slightly slower like model times.
Zero to 60? Who cares? How many USB ports does it have and does it have adaptive cruise?
I have gone on record for saying that 0 to 60 metrics are practicall meaningless to somebody like me. I think if one really checks things out, it is probably true for most gasser buyers/owners also. This post is for those who say diesels are disadvantaged to sux, because of slightly slower like model times.
We have a few Interstate on-ramps where you have to join it from a standing start to merge into traffic flowing at more then 60mph.
Zero to 60? Who cares? How many USB ports does it have and does it have adaptive cruise?
I have gone on record for saying that 0 to 60 metrics are practicall meaningless to somebody like me. I think if one really checks things out, it is probably true for most gasser buyers/owners also. This post is for those who say diesels are disadvantaged to sux, because of slightly slower like model times.
We have a few Interstate on-ramps where you have to join it from a standing start to merge into traffic flowing at more then 60mph.
Yes, we take them probably nearly every day, just like anybody else .
This morning, coming back from a city and rural area, home to the nearly 50 wineries, we were doing a 5/6/7 lane freeway merge with the 2009 Jetta TDI. Acceleration was effortless to 85 mph. Most slow pokes (keeping the speed low and fostering Seattle like flow conditions you know a white knuckled 55 mph, some to most lanes) were GASSERS.
My daughter made the observation that it was way different in Georgia (where she's now used to driving, where most folks keep right except to pass,) in that the left lane/s seemed to be mobbed with slowpokes. Incidenlly, the passing lanes for this snap shot were the SLOW lanes.
Europe gets its acts together after having colluded with the car manufacturers for decades.
Ok !!
So now that the Pandora's Box has been opened , the next target will be all the diesel semi big trucks and the semi big rigs entering from Mexico. But holding up Mexican trucks at the border while they are being tested for emissions will cause a trade war between USA and Mexico involving the NAFTA , so it ain't gonna happen.
Of course nothing will happen, the smog in the LA basin is mostly due to cargo ships and little is done. Living in San Diego I see stake bed trucks all the time coming up from Mexico to haul used tires and appliances back to Mexico. They get dirty diesel in Mexico and spew pollution from here to LA and back with no consequences.
Same goes for out of state trucking companies. They are not tied to the same CARB regulations CA truck companies have to meet. So it is an unfair competition. Main reason several big trucking companies have gone broke here. It is not just diesels. A bill being pushed in CA will make driving a gas vehicle highly restricted. I guess they crush every other vehicle. Or give out gas cards. Should make the wealthy eco nuts happy.
With transportation fuels accounting for 40% of California's greenhouse gas emissions, Brown and De León want to find ways to reduce gasoline consumption. The measure would require the state Air Resources Board, a powerful regulatory agency, to determine how the state would cut petroleum use in half by 2030.
Maybe VW should offer those that are upset with their VW TDI a great deal on a VW EV. Once they get the fix they will be able to resell the TDIs no problem.
At VW's current FAQ on their diesels, two of the questions and answers are:
I want to turn in my vehicle – can I and how? We are cooperating closely with the regulatory authorities to develop a remedy as quickly as possible. We ask for your patience as we work to get this done right."
VW might be smart to offer high BB in trade on one of their gas vehicles or the e-Golf. The only other option is to get into one of the class action lawsuits and wait 5-10 years for the results. My guess is VW will have a good solution in place by the end of the year. As long as the car still gets EPA MPG, a customer will not have much to legally complain about.
Yeah, I'm really not adverse to buying used even new diesels @ much lower prices. My take given how it's been for over 12 model years, for VW to get reestablished, the prices will probably have to be better than before, which were & are already good.
And MB made the bar higher, by selling the d (250 BT) for $500 less MSRP.
Europe gets its acts together after having colluded with the car manufacturers for decades.
Ok !!
So now that the Pandora's Box has been opened , the next target will be all the diesel semi big trucks and the semi big rigs entering from Mexico. But holding up Mexican trucks at the border while they are being tested for emissions will cause a trade war between USA and Mexico involving the NAFTA , so it ain't gonna happen.
Of course nothing will happen, the smog in the LA basin is mostly due to cargo ships and little is done. Living in San Diego I see stake bed trucks all the time coming up from Mexico to haul used tires and appliances back to Mexico. They get dirty diesel in Mexico and spew pollution from here to LA and back with no consequences.
Same goes for out of state trucking companies. They are not tied to the same CARB regulations CA truck companies have to meet. So it is an unfair competition. Main reason several big trucking companies have gone broke here. It is not just diesels. A bill being pushed in CA will make driving a gas vehicle highly restricted. I guess they crush every other vehicle. Or give out gas cards. Should make the wealthy eco nuts happy.
With transportation fuels accounting for 40% of California's greenhouse gas emissions, Brown and De León want to find ways to reduce gasoline consumption. The measure would require the state Air Resources Board, a powerful regulatory agency, to determine how the state would cut petroleum use in half by 2030.
I scratch my head about your post, because a lot of people on this board probably/seem to think you're making this stuff up. Realistically, you're only confirming with the feds and the CA state have already said (again AQMD verifies exactly what you're saying) only not in San Diego. I am sure IF they have a like agency in San Diego, it will say EXACTLY the same thing! ZERO, ZIP, NADA!
San Diego keeps a much lower profile on bad mouthing their neighbors to the South and their best source of income, the NAVY. Our mountains are not as high and we get wind from the East that blows the nasty stuff out to sea. Overall our air quality is decent considering our over population. The buses that service the outlying areas are still all diesel. In town they are NG.
Because VW massively brain farted so publicly, I think it makes it harder for them to cheap out on real solutions for affected customers cars. Right now it looks like they have to walk a tight rope on high wires, in meeting EPA testing standards and fulfilling customers past, present and future expectations .
Steve should love this project we have going on here in San Diego. Getting rid of the stinky diesel school buses.
Inside a Poway warehouse, the first of six school buses are starting the transformation from diesel to electric. A pilot program inspired by the Clinton Global Initiative spearheaded the initiative, and the first electric buses will be some of the first of their kinds in the world.
San Diego keeps a much lower profile on bad mouthing their neighbors to the South and their best source of income, the NAVY. Our mountains are not as high and we get wind from the East that blows the nasty stuff out to sea. Overall our air quality is decent considering our over population. The buses that service the outlying areas are still all diesel. In town they are NG.
Funny how the state and local school district buses, fed (NAVY) and fed treaties get the get out of jail free cards?
0-60 might not be too relevant for most driving, but 0-30-40-50 is, and I suspect the slowpokes are just as relatively slow there. A 11-12 second 0-60 is like my fintail - you have to plan ahead in many acceleration situations. From what I see on the roads (entitled drivers dawdling on to fast busy arterials and expecting flowing traffic to slow as they eventually gain speed), many drivers can't handle such planning.
Oh yeah, we should follow what France does? 75% of the electricity for the grid is supplied by CLEAN nuclear! Solar and wind is .04% (WAY less than 1%)
"VW could lose big around the world Christiaan Hetzner Automotive News September 28, 2015 - 12:01 am ET
....The crisis also has left VW's stakeholders consumed with soul-searching, questioning the company's uniquely insular culture and an atmosphere that bred unaccountability.....
"In a worst-case scenario, Volkswagen could face close to $50 billion in damage" resulting from EPA fines and investor lawsuits, said Ferdinand Dudenhoeffer, director of the Center for Automotive Research at the University of Duisburg-Essen, a German think tank.
"In addition," he said, "the VW brand can forget about selling cars in the U.S. market for the next five years."
VW may be forced to accelerate a cost-cutting program to offset billions it expects to lose, supervisory board member Bernd Osterloh wrote in a letter to employees.
The scandal could cost the group its industry leadership in the global sales race after it took the top spot from Toyota in the first half of the year. Analysts are calling on the company to focus on its core business, scrap prestige projects such as the next Bugatti supercar and VW Phaeton sedan and even abandon the U.S.
"An Armageddon scenario -- purely for illustrative purposes -- where we knock out VW's U.S. business, would take more than 20 percent of earnings away," wrote Bernstein analyst Max Warburton in a note to investors.
Warburton recommends VW abandon all efforts to sell diesels in the U.S. -- a "heart-wrenching decision" since the whole U.S. strategy was founded on diesel.
Others are calling on the brand to bow out of the U.S. entirely.
"The crisis lays bare the need to rethink whether the company really has to own noncore businesses like Bugatti and [motorcycle brand] Ducati, and most importantly whether the VW brand would be better advised exiting the U.S. market where it's lost billions," said NordLB auto analyst Frank Schwope...."
"Around the world, the affected Audi models include the A1, A3, A4, A5, A6, TT, Q3 and Q5, but the scope was more limited in the United States, where diesel cars are less popular."
"VW could lose big around the world Christiaan Hetzner Automotive News September 28, 2015 - 12:01 am ET
"In addition," he said, "the VW brand can forget about selling cars in the U.S. market for the next five years."
...
Warburton recommends VW abandon all efforts to sell diesels in the U.S. -- a "heart-wrenching decision" since the whole U.S. strategy was founded on diesel.
Others are calling on the brand to bow out of the U.S. entirely.
"The crisis lays bare the need to rethink whether the company really has to own noncore businesses like Bugatti and [motorcycle brand] Ducati, and most importantly whether the VW brand would be better advised exiting the U.S. market where it's lost billions," said NordLB auto analyst Frank Schwope...."
I have been really surprised, over the last several years, to see how poorly Volkswagen was doing in the US market, while growing to become number one world wide. Their strategy seems to work very well in other markets, and not well at all here in the US. Perhaps they would be better off to give up on the US market?
VW's 2.5% or less US market share penetration (despite being here half century or more) might be the basis for that way smaller VW world wide discussion!. If VW's TDI %'s of 25% US markets holds true, then really that =.625% market share. That is figuratively and literally peanuts .
Many folks on this board people probably never really understood why I have always been saying that VW's offer great value/s: albeit, TDI's. With the current crisis, it even screams BETTER value . It is also very obvious that the majority of the folks still will not agree.
I don't know why I'm wasting my time, but here might be some applied logic.
(My) 2009 VW Jetta TDI's major tune will be due @ 120,000 miles. Depending on the FIX, VW will have to /or be required to warranty the emissions fix for a period of years/miles, going forward. So I would ask the question, why would it be guaranteed for any less than that, 120,000 miles: adding up to a grand total of 240,000 miles . ? If anything else breaks down in support of this issue, you don't the media is going to hear about this ?
Now they have already upped the DSG automatic transmission warranty to 10 years/100,000 miles. @ 97,0000 miles, mpg has not fallen off! It feels as tight if not tighter than it did when it was new. They fixed the (HPFP) high-pressure fuel pump issue. On the TDI issue or diesel issue, it's spring-loaded going forward for media attention.
I have been really surprised, over the last several years, to see how poorly Volkswagen was doing in the US market, while growing to become number one world wide. Their strategy seems to work very well in other markets, and not well at all here in the US. Perhaps they would be better off to give up on the US market?
I think it is a simple case of not being willing to cut profits just to sell to cheap Americans. People that buy German want the added handling and safety. And with diesels more miles per tank. That would be me. I hate going to smelly gas stations anymore than needed. I get twice the miles with my Touareg as I got with my Sequoia and Suburban before that. I take my potty breaks at Carl's Jr or Burger King. Where they keep the bathrooms relatively clean.
Back to the VW fiasco. I think Elon Musk is calling it better than most.
Elon Musk Says Climate Change Refugees Will Dwarf Current Crisis Tesla's CEO says the Volkswagen scandal is minor compared with carbon dioxide emissions.
Another problem has cropped up for European carmakers - they're now being accused of cheating the EU fuel consumption tests, which they use to calculate CO2 emissions. Mercedes appears the worst, with cars using about 50% more gas than the tests results would say.
"Vehicles built by Daimler AG’s Mercedes division used 48 percent more fuel on average than their published statistics claim, with gaps exceeding 50 percent on new A-, C- and E-Class models, Brussels-based Transport & Environment said Monday. BMW’s 5-Series and the Peugeot 308 produced differences between real-world and laboratory results of just under 50 percent. Across the industry, the gap widened to 40 percent last year from 8 percent in 2001, with the difference between published specifications and actual fuel use costing a typical driver an additional 450 euros ($500) yearly at the pump."
This answers that question we've gotten here in the past: "Why don't they sell all those great MPG cars here that they sell in Europe?" Turns out they WEREN'T "great", after all!
Makes our EPA estimated mpgs look pretty good, in comparison.
I used the like model MB GLK 350,22mpg vs 250BT 35 mpg for 59% more, and this board not only hit the snooze alarm, zzzzzzzzzzz ... Same was true for Acura MDX vs VW Touareg TDI 19 to 22 vs 33 to 37 mpg. Aka JAPANESE nameplate. 75% more fuel! And again, don't get me wrong, I think the MDX is an absolutely awesome vehicle! it really sets the high bar in that CUV segment.
I have been really surprised, over the last several years, to see how poorly Volkswagen was doing in the US market, while growing to become number one world wide. Their strategy seems to work very well in other markets, and not well at all here in the US. Perhaps they would be better off to give up on the US market?
Yes, I've been surprised too. But then I think back to my unsatisfying VW ownership experience. The car was great when it worked! But reliability was not was I was hoping for. And that has been true for many VW owners in the US until the last few years. My impression is that VW has improved its quality and reliability over the last 5 years, although they still fall short of Toyota, Honda, etc.
But leaving the US market would be a drastic step and a huge admission of failure. I think they need to focus on core brands, and forget Bugatti, Phaeton, etc.
I don't think VW has made any big profits in the US since the early 1970s. And they've been losing quite a lot here over the last few years, even as the market has been going up. And so, on a purely dollars and cents basis, they probably should pull out. But abandoning the single richest auto market in the whole world would be such a gigantic blow to VW's prestige that I don't think they'll do it.
My guess is VW will double down in America and make things work somehow, no matter what.
I actually think they probably can do it, which means not thriving in the next year but surviving. It would help if VW had a standard longer warranty (maybe the 4 year bumper to bumper + 6 year powertrain that most luxury brands get?) and then just put a heck of a lot of cash on the hood.
Sounds cruel, but if customers feel like they can benefit from VW's misfortune, by getting a good car at a truly bargain price, they'll probably do it.
Story is from July 2014. I think the one point that rings most true is the perception that VW's reliability isn't up to snuff.
Yes! That has also been an on and off theme on this board, also by virtue of the fact that diesels share that common platform.
While this is not in my wheelhouse, as a consumer, (wallet voting is real ) sooner or later German LABOR unions are going to have to come to grips with:( in these global economies) tbeir ever-increasing monetary contract boondoggles can NOT continue, aka the gravy trains have run their course. Even if German LABOR UNIONs ARE owners of the VW company. Markets in effect are applying massive pressures.
As a matter fact, for these (minority) owners to claim the Sergeant Schulz famous refrain is highly insulting to even people with half a brain. This would also go for the State of Lower Saxony.
I have been really surprised, over the last several years, to see how poorly Volkswagen was doing in the US market, while growing to become number one world wide. Their strategy seems to work very well in other markets, and not well at all here in the US. Perhaps they would be better off to give up on the US market?
Yes, I've been surprised too. But then I think back to my unsatisfying VW ownership experience. The car was great when it worked! But reliability was not was I was hoping for. And that has been true for many VW owners in the US until the last few years. My impression is that VW has improved its quality and reliability over the last 5 years, although they still fall short of Toyota, Honda, etc.
But leaving the US market would be a drastic step and a huge admission of failure. I think they need to focus on core brands, and forget Bugatti, Phaeton, etc.
I don't think VW has made any big profits in the US since the early 1970s. And they've been losing quite a lot here over the last few years, even as the market has been going up. And so, on a purely dollars and cents basis, they probably should pull out. But abandoning the single richest auto market in the whole world would be such a gigantic blow to VW's prestige that I don't think they'll do it.
My guess is VW will double down in America and make things work somehow, no matter what.
I actually think they probably can do it, which means not thriving in the next year but surviving. It would help if VW had a standard longer warranty (maybe the 4 year bumper to bumper + 6 year powertrain that most luxury brands get?) and then just put a heck of a lot of cash on the hood.
Sounds cruel, but if customers feel like they can benefit from VW's misfortune, but getting a good car at a truly bargain price, they'll probably do it.
So why would that be? (Sounds cruel) If they want to continue to brain fart, why would you NOT want better cars? My 2003 VW Jetta TDI started off with 4 yr/60,000 mile warranty. I am halfway hoping that my 187,000 mile 13 yr old car is going to be a deemed part of this latest fiasco.
Longer story short, they were trying to match their Toyota, et al competitors @ 3years and 36,000 miles.
A lot of that competition is starting to hit the trade-in or boneyards , Mine still won't die. Why is that bad?
On the other slow news diesel day section, the local rag indicates that even in California, low fuel prices may have legs into and walk down until 2017.
Here is the scenario I am hoping for. VW does a buy back from all the disgruntled TDI owners. Then puts their fix on them and they come onto the market at a much reduced price.
It looks like there are a LOT of 2015 Golf TDIs with only a few miles on them. I guess that is how they are getting around the don't sell order. So much for a big discount. They seem to be more than they were new. Asking in the high $20k low $30k range.
Here is the scenario I am hoping for. VW does a buy back from all the disgruntled TDI owners. Then puts their fix on them and they come onto the market at a much reduced price.
It looks like there are a LOT of 2015 Golf TDIs with only a few miles on them. I guess that is how they are getting around the don't sell order. So much for a big discount. They seem to be more than they were new. Asking in the high $20k low $30k range.
So for example, a variation: i(f they gave me what I paid new for my) 2009 VW Jetta TDI buy back and accept the new deal on a 15 Golf TDI, I would pay the extra, to get the new car? They would give me good finance rates if I chose that route. A spin off on either would be less to no incentive to join a class action suit.?
Both deals would stimulate used and new car markets.
I would not mind buying a new Golf TDI at 50% discount. But I will not submit it for neutering.
Even @ only 236 a pound feet of torque, I still love how the 2009 Jetta TDI runs! We had three people and junk in the trunk, on the morning return from the winery area, and it just really moved along !
While I periodically do report what it/they get/s per tank full, I have never driven it/them with an egg between the right foot and drive by wire throttle, like you would with Pious or EV or gasser. To post higher #'d mpg.
My guess - their internet dept is behind the times, very much doubt you could buy it. They're probably leaving it there, hoping somebody drops by so they can sell them a gasser.
Truly, there is nothing (Fed, State, County, local) directive in nature, in OFFICIAL writing. Also from what I read, Volkswagen has one year ( from an UN known/stated date) before they even have to present a plan to the Fed. After that time, who knows how long the Fed will take to even review the plan. Then, they have to approve it. Sounds like a couple years to me! ?
Here is the scenario I am hoping for. VW does a buy back from all the disgruntled TDI owners. Then puts their fix on them and they come onto the market at a much reduced price.
It looks like there are a LOT of 2015 Golf TDIs with only a few miles on them. I guess that is how they are getting around the don't sell order. So much for a big discount. They seem to be more than they were new. Asking in the high $20k low $30k range.
So for example, a variation: i(f they gave me what I paid new for my) 2009 VW Jetta TDI buy back and accept the new deal on a 15 Golf TDI, I would pay the extra, to get the new car? They would give me good finance rates if I chose that route. A spin off on either would be less to no incentive to join a class action suit.?
Both deals would stimulate used and new car markets.
They are not going to give you what you paid for your new 2009 Jetta TDI. I think the best you can hope for is "fair used value"—and that's even if they do a buy back.
A buy back would cost VW billions and billions of dollars. They won't do it unless they feel they have no other way to survive in the US market.
I hope they do it. I think it's how they come back from this. But it will be a buy back at fair used prices, not new.
I would want my discounted Golf all certified good to go with the EPA. With Golf diesels averaging low to mid 40s on Fuelly, I cannot imagine the fix would bring the mileage down to the EPA estimate of 36 MPG combined. Though I am still hoping the Amarok TDI makes it here. VW will need something flashy and practical to get people back into the show rooms.
I would want my discounted Golf all certified good to go with the EPA. With Golf diesels averaging low to mid 40s on Fuelly, I cannot imagine the fix would bring the mileage down to the EPA estimate of 36 MPG combined. Though I am still hoping the Amarok TDI makes it here. VW will need something flashy and practical to get people back into the show rooms.
I think the new trick will be trying to up the torque figures while getting the MPG the same or similar mpg.
My guess - their internet dept is behind the times, very much doubt you could buy it. They're probably leaving it there, hoping somebody drops by so they can sell them a gasser.
Agreed. Bait and switch , to get customers into their lot and then say sorry it is not for sale. But that would make them more shameful after the already big hole they have dug themselves in. Better would be they offer 40-50% discounts and move their stock. TDIs are the best mileage vehicles ever produced in the USA but for the EPA putting the spanner in the works
Here is the scenario I am hoping for. VW does a buy back from all the disgruntled TDI owners. Then puts their fix on them and they come onto the market at a much reduced price.
It looks like there are a LOT of 2015 Golf TDIs with only a few miles on them. I guess that is how they are getting around the don't sell order. So much for a big discount. They seem to be more than they were new. Asking in the high $20k low $30k range.
So for example, a variation: i(f they gave me what I paid new for my) 2009 VW Jetta TDI buy back and accept the new deal on a 15 Golf TDI, I would pay the extra, to get the new car? They would give me good finance rates if I chose that route. A spin off on either would be less to no incentive to join a class action suit.?
Both deals would stimulate used and new car markets.
They are not going to give you what you paid for your new 2009 Jetta TDI. I think the best you can hope for is "fair used value"—and that's even if they do a buy back.
A buy back would cost VW billions and billions of dollars. They won't do it unless they feel they have no other way to survive in the US market.
I hope they do it. I think it's how they come back from this. But it will be a buy back at fair used prices, not new.
Whilel I still want the best for everybody that has bought the affected TDI's, I have already made 17 times over what I paid for my affected TDI ( 2009 Jetta TDI) anyway.
So I will be spring loaded to future auto sector brain farts. It promises to be a very good rest of the 2015 year.
I would want my discounted Golf all certified good to go with the EPA. With Golf diesels averaging low to mid 40s on Fuelly, I cannot imagine the fix would bring the mileage down to the EPA estimate of 36 MPG combined. Though I am still hoping the Amarok TDI makes it here. VW will need something flashy and practical to get people back into the show rooms.
Kinda looks like an Explorer Sport Trac from this angle.
If they had the same engine as your Toureg, that'd be a stout powertrain. Probably pull 7500 lbs. without breaking a sweat.
Comments
My guess is a fix for the non-AdBlue vehicles is going to be difficult, costly, expensive—and maybe take 6 months or so to be available. For customers who are upset now, finding a way to get them out of their diesel and into maybe a gas VW seems like it might be a wise idea.
Many are going to want to hang onto their polluting diesels until they are pulled, in Charlton Heston's words, "from my cold, dead hands."
But others would like to wash their hands of this asap. And it happens that VW dealers across the country have an excess of Jetta gas turbos and Passat gas turbos on the lots at the moment. If you can convince the diesel owners that VW's very nice gas turbos are going to give them almost as much torque as on their diesels, while passing emissions, it might help.
Of course, this would assume that VW central can spend several billion dollars trying to make the Americans happy. But if so, perhaps a deal can be made that would also help local VW dealers who are now in such distress?
One possibility might be to give current owners of affected VW diesels "fair market value" for their vehicles, however that might be defined, plus some substantial amount toward a new VW. If you could get current owners to forgo being part of any lawsuit, maybe put c. $8000, on top of all current rebates, on hood? For those unwilling to get another VW, but willing to sign a non-sue agreement, perhaps a cash payment of $5000 for their time and trouble?
"Bosch warned VW about illegal software use in diesel cars, report says
Staff report
Automotive News
September 27, 2015 - 10:00 am ET
MUNICH -- Robert Bosch warned Volkswagen in 2007 that it would be illegal to use engine management software at the heart of the diesels emissions scandal in production cars, German newspaper Bild am Sonntag said.
VW was also warned by one of its own engineers in 2011 about illegal emissions testing practices, a report in the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung's Sunday edition said, citing initial results of a VW internal investigation.
Bild am Sonntag said Bosch supplied diesel software to VW for test purposes but it ended up in vehicles on the road. Bosch wrote to VW saying that such use was unlawful, according to the paper's report, which did not cite sources.
Bosch, the world's biggest supplier, is adding up the cost to its business and reputation of the VW emissions scandal.
A Bosch spokesman today told Reuters that the company's dealings with VW were confidential. VW declined to comment on the details of either newspaper report.
Last week, Bosch said it had delivered components to VW that are now at the center of a probe into rigged emissions tests. The components included delivery and metering modules for exhaust gas treatment and common-rail injection systems.
Responsibility for configuring handling characteristics of these components "lies with Volkswagen," a Bosch spokesman told Automotive News Europe last week.
Bild am Sonntag said the roots of the crisis were planted in 2005 when then-VW brand chief Wolfgang Bernhard wanted VW to develop a new diesel engine for the U.S. market. Bernhard recruited Audi engineer Rudolf Krebs who developed a prototype that performed well in tests in South Africa in 2006, the paper said.
Bernhard and Krebs argued that the only way to make the engine meet U.S. emission standards was to employ in the engine system an AdBlue urea solution used on larger diesel models such as the Passat and Touareg, according to the report.
This would have added a cost of 300 euros ($335 in today's U.S. dollars) per vehicle -- a sum that VW finance officials said was too much at a time when a companywide cost-cutting exercise was under way...."
http://www.autonews.com/article/20150927/COPY01/309279989/bosch-warned-vw-about-illegal-software-use-in-diesel-cars-report-says
http://hsrd.yahoo.com/_ylt=A86.ItwHSwhWXakARbzO2FxH/RV=1/RE=1444593671/RH=aHNyZC55YWhvby5jb20-/RO=2/RU=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5jaGVhdHNoZWV0LmNvbS9hdXRvbW9iaWxlcy8xMC1jYXJzLXdpdGgtdGhlLXdvcnN0LWFjY2VsZXJhdGlvbi1pbi10aGUtdS1zLmh0bWwvP3JlZj1ZRg--/RS=^ADAe9aD5_6mEU1r0YpPA8L93EzNkHw-
Zero to 60? Who cares? How many USB ports does it have and does it have adaptive cruise?
This morning, coming back from a city and rural area, home to the nearly 50 wineries, we were doing a 5/6/7 lane freeway merge with the 2009 Jetta TDI. Acceleration was effortless to 85 mph. Most slow pokes (keeping the speed low and fostering Seattle like flow conditions you know a white knuckled 55 mph, some to most lanes) were GASSERS.
My daughter made the observation that it was way different in Georgia (where she's now used to driving, where most folks keep right except to pass,) in that the left lane/s seemed to be mobbed with slowpokes. Incidenlly, the passing lanes for this snap shot were the SLOW lanes.
Same goes for out of state trucking companies. They are not tied to the same CARB regulations CA truck companies have to meet. So it is an unfair competition. Main reason several big trucking companies have gone broke here. It is not just diesels. A bill being pushed in CA will make driving a gas vehicle highly restricted. I guess they crush every other vehicle. Or give out gas cards. Should make the wealthy eco nuts happy.
With transportation fuels accounting for 40% of California's greenhouse gas emissions, Brown and De León want to find ways to reduce gasoline consumption. The measure would require the state Air Resources Board, a powerful regulatory agency, to determine how the state would cut petroleum use in half by 2030.
http://www.latimes.com/local/politics/la-me-pol-air-board-qa-20150906-story.html
http://www.contracostatimes.com/ci_23619630/carb-is-again-crippling-california-trucking-industry
http://blog.chrwtrucks.com/owner-operators/carb-regulations-financial-challenge-owner-operators/
http://www.vw.com/models/e-golf/?&cid=ssem_sblf4VkH_71271185346_c
And MB made the bar higher, by selling the d (250 BT) for $500 less MSRP.
Inside a Poway warehouse, the first of six school buses are starting the transformation from diesel to electric.
A pilot program inspired by the Clinton Global Initiative spearheaded the initiative, and the first electric buses will be some of the first of their kinds in the world.
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Six-Buses-Largest-Program-of-Its-Kind-in-World-Being-Transformed-to-Electric-in-Poway-309672831.html
Oh yeah, we should follow what France does? 75% of the electricity for the grid is supplied by CLEAN nuclear! Solar and wind is .04% (WAY less than 1%)
"VW could lose big around the world
Christiaan Hetzner
Automotive News
September 28, 2015 - 12:01 am ET
....The crisis also has left VW's stakeholders consumed with soul-searching, questioning the company's uniquely insular culture and an atmosphere that bred unaccountability.....
"In a worst-case scenario, Volkswagen could face close to $50 billion in damage" resulting from EPA fines and investor lawsuits, said Ferdinand Dudenhoeffer, director of the Center for Automotive Research at the University of Duisburg-Essen, a German think tank.
"In addition," he said, "the VW brand can forget about selling cars in the U.S. market for the next five years."
VW may be forced to accelerate a cost-cutting program to offset billions it expects to lose, supervisory board member Bernd Osterloh wrote in a letter to employees.
The scandal could cost the group its industry leadership in the global sales race after it took the top spot from Toyota in the first half of the year. Analysts are calling on the company to focus on its core business, scrap prestige projects such as the next Bugatti supercar and VW Phaeton sedan and even abandon the U.S.
"An Armageddon scenario -- purely for illustrative purposes -- where we knock out VW's U.S. business, would take more than 20 percent of earnings away," wrote Bernstein analyst Max Warburton in a note to investors.
Warburton recommends VW abandon all efforts to sell diesels in the U.S. -- a "heart-wrenching decision" since the whole U.S. strategy was founded on diesel.
Others are calling on the brand to bow out of the U.S. entirely.
"The crisis lays bare the need to rethink whether the company really has to own noncore businesses like Bugatti and [motorcycle brand] Ducati, and most importantly whether the VW brand would be better advised exiting the U.S. market where it's lost billions," said NordLB auto analyst Frank Schwope...."
http://www.autonews.com/article/20150928/OEM/309289953/vw-could-lose-big-around-the-world
Audi says 2.1 million cars had software to cheat emissions (Washington Post)
"Around the world, the affected Audi models include the A1, A3, A4, A5, A6, TT, Q3 and Q5, but the scope was more limited in the United States, where diesel cars are less popular."
I have been really surprised, over the last several years, to see how poorly Volkswagen was doing in the US market, while growing to become number one world wide. Their strategy seems to work very well in other markets, and not well at all here in the US. Perhaps they would be better off to give up on the US market?
Many folks on this board people probably never really understood why I have always been saying that VW's offer great value/s: albeit, TDI's. With the current crisis, it even screams BETTER value . It is also very obvious that the majority of the folks still will not agree.
I don't know why I'm wasting my time, but here might be some applied logic.
(My) 2009 VW Jetta TDI's major tune will be due @ 120,000 miles. Depending on the FIX, VW will have to /or be required to warranty the emissions fix for a period of years/miles, going forward. So I would ask the question, why would it be guaranteed for any less than that, 120,000 miles: adding up to a grand total of 240,000 miles . ? If anything else breaks down in support of this issue, you don't the media is going to hear about this ?
Now they have already upped the DSG automatic transmission warranty to 10 years/100,000 miles. @ 97,0000 miles, mpg has not fallen off! It feels as tight if not tighter than it did when it was new. They fixed the (HPFP) high-pressure fuel pump issue. On the TDI issue or diesel issue, it's spring-loaded going forward for media attention.
Elon Musk Says Climate Change Refugees Will Dwarf Current Crisis
Tesla's CEO says the Volkswagen scandal is minor compared with carbon dioxide emissions.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/elon-musk-in-berlin_560484dee4b08820d91c5f5f
"Vehicles built by Daimler AG’s Mercedes division used 48 percent more fuel on average than their published statistics claim, with gaps exceeding 50 percent on new A-, C- and E-Class models, Brussels-based Transport & Environment said Monday. BMW’s 5-Series and the Peugeot 308 produced differences between real-world and laboratory results of just under 50 percent. Across the industry, the gap widened to 40 percent last year from 8 percent in 2001, with the difference between published specifications and actual fuel use costing a typical driver an additional 450 euros ($500) yearly at the pump."
This answers that question we've gotten here in the past: "Why don't they sell all those great MPG cars here that they sell in Europe?" Turns out they WEREN'T "great", after all!
Makes our EPA estimated mpgs look pretty good, in comparison.
I used the like model MB GLK 350,22mpg vs 250BT 35 mpg for 59% more, and this board not only hit the snooze alarm, zzzzzzzzzzz ... Same was true for Acura MDX vs VW Touareg TDI 19 to 22 vs 33 to 37 mpg. Aka JAPANESE nameplate. 75% more fuel! And again, don't get me wrong, I think the MDX is an absolutely awesome vehicle! it really sets the high bar in that CUV segment.
4 Reasons Americans Aren't Buying Volkswagens Anymore (businessinsider.com)
Story is from July 2014. I think the one point that rings most true is the perception that VW's reliability isn't up to snuff.
But leaving the US market would be a drastic step and a huge admission of failure. I think they need to focus on core brands, and forget Bugatti, Phaeton, etc.
I don't think VW has made any big profits in the US since the early 1970s. And they've been losing quite a lot here over the last few years, even as the market has been going up. And so, on a purely dollars and cents basis, they probably should pull out. But abandoning the single richest auto market in the whole world would be such a gigantic blow to VW's prestige that I don't think they'll do it.
My guess is VW will double down in America and make things work somehow, no matter what.
I actually think they probably can do it, which means not thriving in the next year but surviving. It would help if VW had a standard longer warranty (maybe the 4 year bumper to bumper + 6 year powertrain that most luxury brands get?) and then just put a heck of a lot of cash on the hood.
Sounds cruel, but if customers feel like they can benefit from VW's misfortune, by getting a good car at a truly bargain price, they'll probably do it.
While this is not in my wheelhouse, as a consumer, (wallet voting is real ) sooner or later German LABOR unions are going to have to come to grips with:( in these global economies) tbeir ever-increasing monetary contract boondoggles can NOT continue, aka the gravy trains have run their course. Even if German LABOR UNIONs ARE owners of the VW company. Markets in effect are applying massive pressures.
As a matter fact, for these (minority) owners to claim the Sergeant Schulz famous refrain is highly insulting to even people with half a brain. This would also go for the State of Lower Saxony.
Longer story short, they were trying to match their Toyota, et al competitors @ 3years and 36,000 miles.
A lot of that competition is starting to hit the trade-in or boneyards , Mine still won't die. Why is that bad?
http://www.mercurynews.com/bay-area-news/ci_28887074/low-gas-prices-could-stick-around-into-2017
For those still considering diesel, but with another name plate .
http://www.thestreet.com/story/13302001/1/9-fuel-efficient-diesel-cars-and-trucks-to-buy-not-named-volkswagen.html?utm_source=Outbrain&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=tstoutbrain&cm_ven=outbrain&utm_term=1062074
It looks like there are a LOT of 2015 Golf TDIs with only a few miles on them. I guess that is how they are getting around the don't sell order. So much for a big discount. They seem to be more than they were new. Asking in the high $20k low $30k range.
Both deals would stimulate used and new car markets.
While I periodically do report what it/they get/s per tank full, I have never driven it/them with an egg between the right foot and drive by wire throttle, like you would with Pious or EV or gasser. To post higher #'d mpg.
sutliffvolkswagen.com/searchnew.aspx?make=volkswagen&model=Golf&trim=TDI+SEL&rm=trim%3aTDI+SEL
https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/
A buy back would cost VW billions and billions of dollars. They won't do it unless they feel they have no other way to survive in the US market.
I hope they do it. I think it's how they come back from this. But it will be a buy back at fair used prices, not new.
So I will be spring loaded to future auto sector brain farts. It promises to be a very good rest of the 2015 year.
If they had the same engine as your Toureg, that'd be a stout powertrain. Probably pull 7500 lbs. without breaking a sweat.
"Of course nothing will happen, the smog in the LA basin is mostly due to cargo ships and little is done."
Cargo ships are not the main problem and things are getting better.
http://www.latimes.com/science/la-me-0218-port-pollution-20150218-story.html