What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

stever

"Most new diesel cars emit considerably more toxic emissions than is shown in official laboratory tests, a study by Europe’s largest motoring organisation has found."

Most new diesel cars have high emissions, study finds (eandt.theiet.org)

stever

No one else does it, right?

"Samsung has strongly denied a report in a British newspaper citing research suggesting that some of its TVs in Europe appear to use less energy in tests than in real-world conditions."

Samsung insists TV device is ‘not a test cheat’ (euronews.com)

(btw, all my posts are composed in my cubicle and reports that some of these missives are hatched from my hammock are categorically denied).

ruking1

http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/bitwise/2015/10/volkswagen_s_emissions_scandal_has_a_villain_and_it_s_the_not_the_people.html

This linked post takes on an Austin Powers spoof like quality! Is it, reality mirrors art or vice versa? Whose the mini me here?

ruking1

stever said:

No one else does it, right?

"Samsung has strongly denied a report in a British newspaper citing research suggesting that some of its TVs in Europe appear to use less energy in tests than in real-world conditions."

Samsung insists TV device is ‘not a test cheat’ (euronews.com)

(btw, all my posts are composed in my cubicle and reports that some of these missives are hatched from my hammock are categorically denied).

Say it ain't so, Joe!

It is funny how the environmentalists are totally totally OK with the second polluting industry in the whole world, and that is exemplified by the New York City fashion and clothing industry!!!!!

benjaminh

Jack Baruth of Road and Track has had it with diesels:

"OCT 1, 2015
Why Diesels Need to Die

....Western democracies encouraged diesel even though they were perfectly aware of the health hazards posed by diesel particulate exhaust. Those risks are far better documented than even the most "settled" climate science, and they are very real. Yet the Eurocrats chose diesel in order to be seen to be doing something about global warming, and the manufacturers had to abide by their choice.

The result? Paris has had to ban cars for hours or even days at a time because of smog. According to The Guardian, "diesel-related health problems cost (the British National Health Service) more than 10 times as much as comparable problems caused by petrol fumes. Last year the UN's World Health Organisation declared that diesel exhaust caused cancer and was comparable in its effects to secondary cigarette smoking."

And that was when people thought that these diesels were meeting pollution standards! Now, of course, we know that many of them were not, and that even the diesel cars that weren't designed to cheat the tests are not performing in the real world the way they do in the test labs. In other words, diesel-powered automobiles are killing people, and in not inconsiderable numbers. The jury is in and the evidence is clear.

So let's ban them. Let's wipe the diesel-powered passenger car from the earth. Maybe we can't do anything about diesel heavy-duty trucks, although the idea of creating a proper gasoline-powered Kenworth seems slightly less difficult than, say, landing a remote-controlled vehicle on Mars and having it live on distant sunlight. But we can absolutely put the kibosh on diesel cars and light trucks....

For me, the final nail in diesel's coffin was my trip to Barcelona earlier this year to drive the new Miata. Few places on this still-green Earth are as lovely as Spain in the spring and as I hustled the little Mazda up and down the coastline I felt blessed to be alive. Yet every time I pulled up behind another car, I was choked by the Freightliner stench of an imperfectly-tuned diesel engine. Every small car, every minivan, every family sedan. Diesel all of them, and most of them stank, and some of them smoked. It made me wonder why anybody in Europe would buy a convertible.

Maybe the unelected mandarins of Brussels thought diesel would be good for the planet, but were their luxury apartments and private-jet travel so elevated, so rarefied, that they were unable to smell the evidence of their stupidity?"

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a26891/the-end-of-diesel/

ruking1

The only way you going to get diesel to die by killing GASSERs. So good luck with that. Next would be clean coal & nuclear.

Till Nirvana takes over, I'm targeting at least 30 years lifecycles for diesels that I have and will continue to buy.

stever

ruking1 said:

It is funny how the environmentalists are totally totally OK with the second polluting industry

Hey don't look at me or @gagrice - we both killed our TVs.

(You do mean that television is the second biggest polluting industry, right?)

@benjaminh, you didn't cut and paste the coal burning VW animated gif. His Miata comment did give me pause.

ruking1

stever said:

ruking1 said:

It is funny how the environmentalists are totally totally OK with the second polluting industry

Hey don't look at me or @gagrice - we both killed our TVs.

(You do mean that television is the second biggest polluting industry, right?)

@benjaminh, you didn't cut and paste the coal burning VW animated gif. His Miata comment did give me pause.

No, & correct, the sentence goes on to point out the fashion and clothing industry. However, anybody that thinks the environmentalists are NOT targeting electronic gadgets, as exemplified by Samsung, Apple products is a complete idiot.

But then most environmentalist live-in huge big cities ( like NYC- hard to get any bigger @ conspicuous consumption than that?) and most wouldn't have it any other way. Of course, cities are the Sodom and Gomorrah of all the consumptions that they rail against . Nothing like pure unadulterated rank hypocrisy? Can you imagine a enviro [non-permissible content removed] asking : does this mean I have to give up my IPhone? How are we going to arrange the next environmental or George Soro's 1% protest ?

xwesx

benjaminh said:

Jack Baruth of Road and Track has had it with diesels:

Hahaha! Hey, everyone needs to have a good rant now and again. It's a good thing that the guys that write for these rags don't really need to maintain any credibility.

carboy21

Dealer near me is still selling Passat TDI . I would still buy one if he gives me 30-40 % off the sticker price

carboy21

benjaminh said:

Jack Baruth of Road and Track has had it with diesels:

"OCT 1, 2015
Why Diesels Need to Die

....Western democracies encouraged diesel even though they were perfectly aware of the health hazards posed by diesel particulate exhaust. Those risks are far better documented than even the most "settled" climate science, and they are very real. Yet the Eurocrats chose diesel in order to be seen to be doing something about global warming, and the manufacturers had to abide by their choice.

The result? Paris has had to ban cars for hours or even days at a time because of smog. According to The Guardian, "diesel-related health problems cost (the British National Health Service) more than 10 times as much as comparable problems caused by petrol fumes. Last year the UN's World Health Organisation declared that diesel exhaust caused cancer and was comparable in its effects to secondary cigarette smoking."

And that was when people thought that these diesels were meeting pollution standards! Now, of course, we know that many of them were not, and that even the diesel cars that weren't designed to cheat the tests are not performing in the real world the way they do in the test labs. In other words, diesel-powered automobiles are killing people, and in not inconsiderable numbers. The jury is in and the evidence is clear.

So let's ban them. Let's wipe the diesel-powered passenger car from the earth. Maybe we can't do anything about diesel heavy-duty trucks, although the idea of creating a proper gasoline-powered Kenworth seems slightly less difficult than, say, landing a remote-controlled vehicle on Mars and having it live on distant sunlight. But we can absolutely put the kibosh on diesel cars and light trucks....

For me, the final nail in diesel's coffin was my trip to Barcelona earlier this year to drive the new Miata. Few places on this still-green Earth are as lovely as Spain in the spring and as I hustled the little Mazda up and down the coastline I felt blessed to be alive. Yet every time I pulled up behind another car, I was choked by the Freightliner stench of an imperfectly-tuned diesel engine. Every small car, every minivan, every family sedan. Diesel all of them, and most of them stank, and some of them smoked. It made me wonder why anybody in Europe would buy a convertible.

Maybe the unelected mandarins of Brussels thought diesel would be good for the planet, but were their luxury apartments and private-jet travel so elevated, so rarefied, that they were unable to smell the evidence of their stupidity?"

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a26891/the-end-of-diesel/

Jack Baruth can inhale my fart as his cuddly wimpy Mazda Miata tailgates my Diesel Passat ! LOL

benjaminh

ruking1 said:

The above post is a PC Version of what I was saying about it being the tip of the huge, huge,huge iceberg. 97% plus of the passenger vehicles are GASSERs.....

You're probably one of the few to ever accuse The Wall Street Journal of being "PC." That article is about Europe, where diesels make up about half of the vehicle population, but you're right that in the US c. 97% of passenger vehicles are gas. Gas vehicles, however, face emissions controls in the US that are as strict as for diesels. But as you say, it's the tip of the iceberg in terms of "legalized cheating" in Europe. But in US the room for such stuff is much narrower, and the penalties for getting caught are much higher. And so far it seems that only VW felt it had to go beyond the legalized cheating that's for decades been allowed in Europe and into the realm of breaking the laws of the United States.

ruking1

You are exaggerating by saying I am accusing WSJ of the PC. You might be saying that I am, but that's a whole different issue.

Right now everything is alleged. You really should read the post on the Austin Powers spoof. Aka the ring leader pulled it off!?

I think in a couple of months to a couple years, it will have been proved him laughing all the way to the bank!

Not many American car buyers have even known about diesel, let alone consider one! By that time, EVERYBODY will have known about diesel.

texases

"Right now everything is alleged "

Let me guess - you'll need the VW software engineer to demonstrate the use of the cheat codes to you  in person...

Things are far beyond 'alleged', seems to me.

Michaell

texases said:

"Right now everything is alleged "

Let me guess - you'll need the VW software engineer to demonstrate the use of the cheat codes to you  in person...

Things are far beyond 'alleged', seems to me.

That's my understanding .. VW has admitted to 'cheating' on the emissions testing procedures. If one pleads guilty, then the "alleged" can be dropped.

socal_eric

carboy21 said:

Why would one need a software to defeat emissions control only in vehicle testing ? It was supposed to defeat emissions control in normal driving . So why would it be only used in testing ? Sounds like double speak

As someone who is reasonably well versed in engine management and the calibration aspect (i.e. software tuning), it's completely reasonable for something like this to be in the software tuning suite. During calibration development and internal emission testing the automaker might want to cause the vehicle to run differently in order to test hardware as one example. They might engage a testing mode to cause the engine to increase NOx production to see how much NOx loading the lean NOx trap/catalyst could store. They could also engage it to load the NOx trap/catalyst to determine how and when and under what conditions to transition the vehicle to running rich to cause regeneration and breaking down of NOx. Or possibly altering turbocharger boost and fuel injection timing/amount to decrease the peak combustion chamber pressure to see how much NOx is reduced and the subsequent affects on creation of other exhaust gasses.

If the two operating modes could easily be switch on and off on a chassis dyno, the calibration engineers could also use two different tables or operating strategies to test differences in vehicle or operating condition inputs to see how calibration changes will affect power, economy and so on. Same thing with the software calibration suite (i.e. tuning software) being able to command use of different sensor input and to turn off emission equipment. For example if you're tuning for drivability you might want to disable the evaporative emission systems to simulate how the car would run if a component in that system failed or to see what the affects would be on fuel vapor leaking.

More than likely this wasn't some special, programmed-in mode specifically to cheat emission testing, but instead was a development capability that allows the automaker and/or calibration engineer to test different operating modes to see how the vehicle responds. There's a chance Bosch could have written a custom algorithm or provided VW information on how to engage a different testing mode under very specific test parameters (certain steering angle, front-rear wheel speed difference, ignition-on time and time operating within certain speed ranges, etc.), but if VW asked for this and Bosch complied we'd need to see what justification they gave Bosch.

It could have been completely reasonable but from the Bosch remarks maybe they did suspect VW was using it in production and tried to protect themselves by sending a reminder to VW. I think the investigation will eventually expose more information so we should wait until facts are published to play the blame game. Maybe VW did all of the tuning in-house and didn't require Bosch involvement other than buying their software tuning suite and fuel component hardware. Or perhaps Bosch was subcontracted and provided direct assistance to VW engineers and could have potentially known the alternate operating mode might have been used outside testing.

I wouldn't be surprised that because this was a fairly new powertrain controller family at the time the affected VW models came out that VW was at a minimum contracting with Bosch to provide technical support and answer questions on calibration programming strategies and features available in the controller software. Beyond that they may or may not share some responsibility depending on the individual and company knowledge of the practice being used in real-world scenarios and what their requirements were, if any, to report it.

ruking1

Ditto! A huge huge huge amount of information has yet to come to the light. So absolutely and positively YES! ANd huge NO to Texases & Michaell's posts.

I mean don't you think it's even a little bit odd that the ringleader is getting away with it and the CEO took his sacrificial $69 million golden parachute to tell people he knew nothing ? I mean give me $69 million and I'll tell you I had nothing to do with it . Of course, that would be mostly true, but then, how much fun would that be?

carboy21

Thanks socal_eric

stever

Nothing alleged about it.

"Government regulations limit the use of engine software that reduces the effectiveness of a vehicle’s emissions control systems. Those are the “defeat device” regulations, and regrettably, VW violated those regulations. We take full responsibility – and deeply regret that this happened."

http://www.vwdieselinfo.com/faqs/

ruking1

No! Clinton & Obama est language!

The real perps are pre ordained to go scott free. So for example, the smart thing to do would be to admit guilt fast & early ( like VW did) so that the stuff that needs to be hidden, remains hidden. I think it also an effective $$ cap. I think this clears the way for a way under $600 per unit fix. Further it reenergizes the diesel segment! This is probably the most important objective.

All the smoke and mirrors are really no different than Hillary Clinton blaming that hapless guy in LA making bad videos, that had absolutely nothing to do with the Benghazi affair, for the Benghazi affair. So if you are OK with staying duped, get a rope and hang a couple of low level VW software engineers, who were probably forced to do the wet work or really might not have really been fully aware of its illegality.

More on direct point, I do NOT know if (especially since CARB had certified my 2009 Jetta TDI as passing with flying colors any number of times ) my 2009 Jetta TDI is out of compliance. I challenge and defy them to prove it. So for example, even AFTER it (the reflashing) is done, I STILL will NOT know! Both actions are not transparent at all!

fintail

Baruth can be fun to read, but AFAIK he has no real engineering or industry background. He's a writer, an entertainer. He being used as a source of anything here speaks volumes.

Whining about diesels in Spain is absolutely irrelevant to modern cars, or the situation in NA. No mention as to the age or type of offending vehicles. 99 times out of 100, the stinker I see is a truck/commercial vehicle using our defective trickle down ideals to avoid responsibility. Every now and then one will encounter a 1979 MB that doesn't smell like roses - but it wasn't supposed to.

carboy21 said:

Jack Baruth can inhale my fart as his cuddly wimpy Mazda Miata tailgates my Diesel Passat ! LOL

gagrice

stever said:

"Most new diesel cars emit considerably more toxic emissions than is shown in official laboratory tests, a study by Europe’s largest motoring organisation has found."

Most new diesel cars have high emissions, study finds (eandt.theiet.org)

I learned early on about the flaws in the CA smog tests. One time I made the mistake of using a smog station less than a mile from the house. Our 1990 Mazda failed the test and I was out $29. So I went to one about 5 miles away that I had used two years before. Passed with flying colors. He told me you have to get a car warmed up good before the test or a near new car will fail. Which tells me about 270 million gassers being driven on short trips are polluting our air, BIG TIME.

Looks like the EU will spread the blame better than we have.

Vehicles by Renault, Nissan, Hyundai, Citroen, Fiat and Volvo have all been found guilty of producing much more harmful emissions than officially declared when tested under conditions that are closer to real-life.

xwesx

gagrice said:

Vehicles by Renault, Nissan, Hyundai, Citroen, Fiat and Volvo have all been found guilty of producing much more harmful emissions than officially declared when tested under conditions that are closer to real-life.

Here's the thing, though. All vehicle emissions will vary, it's just reality. So, just because a vehicle does or does not meet a given standard under differing conditions doesn't mean it fails to meet emissions standards. The standards say they have to meet it under a given set of parameters. If they do, under those parameters, and they are not equipped with software (or hardware) that intentionally alters the "real life" emissions when not under those parameters, then they still meet the standards.

If this "mountain-out-of-a-mole-hill" thinking continues, y'all better have the vehicles you want to have for awhile to come in hand already, otherwise you'll be up an unsavory creek without a paddle when all vehicles fail certification for sale (except maybe a Tesla, etc). But, we'll be in a better world if these horrid polluters are not on the roads any more! Oh, yeah, except folks like me will be driving their old rigs to work every day, happily polluting orders of magnitude greater than any new car sold today, and enjoying every minute of it as we eek every ounce of life out of them for years, and years, and years to come!

Muahahahahahah!

ruking1

stever said:

"Most new diesel cars emit considerably more toxic emissions than is shown in official laboratory tests, a study by Europe’s largest motoring organisation has found."

Most new diesel cars have high emissions, study finds (eandt.theiet.org)

Again to cite the obvious, the implication are that gassers passenger cars emit ZERO N0x to full compliance . The AQMD (real world) statistics indicate that notion to be totally false.

For articles like this to have a smidgen of credibility, they need gasser/diesel comparisons. Anything less is misleading to out and out falsehood.

gagrice

I don't think we have heard anything yet. Wouldn't surprise me to hear VW had hired a high ranking EPA engineer to do the dirty work. After all that is where the rats head when a new administration takes over. Right to the corporate or academic world.
The cartoonist are enjoying the change from Trump and Hillary.

stever

Gawd, enough with the politics please everyone. Otherwise I'm going to have to move north to a civilized country where, believe it or not, there's a national election going on right now. It started August 2 and ends October 19. It'd about be worth the cold to enjoy a few years of quiet.

Other than the rattling of the diesels of course.

ruking1

Head scratcher here !CARB/ EPA have actually undergone political weaponization for the Democratic Party.

stever

Enough.

ruking1

x

stever

[Some two-bit political agency established by RMN that won't be named ] says recall of VW diesel cars 'likely' (autonews.com)

Amid Scandal, Online Interest in Used Volkswagen Diesels Heats Up (NBC)

VW Workforce Starts to Feel Pinch From Diesel-Emissions Scandal (Bloomberg - just Germany so far)

ruking1

http://www.wsj.com/articles/labor-day-deals-boost-fiat-chryslers-september-sales-1443700878

Good news amongst the VW doom and gloom.18.3M projected!

stever

Jaguar Land Rover Confident About Diesel Strategy, Even as VW Scandal Continues

henryn

stever said:

Amid Scandal, Online Interest in Used Volkswagen Diesels Heats Up (NBC)

Krebs said she believes the market is thriving on potential buyers looking for a good deal.
"We often seen spikes in shopping when something is in the news," she said. "Some of that's just curiosity, checking out what the prices are, but there may well be people that are looking to see if people are selling (used Volkswagen diesels) for cheap."

Well, yeah, absolutely. One of the first things I did was post in Real World Trade In Values asking @qbrozen if there were any bargains showing up for VW diesels at the auctions. Everybody loves a bargain, after all.

If I had much confidence in VW management, I might consider investing in the stock. But not right now, no thanks.

elias

The aspersions cast at Bosch appear to be inappropriate and made out of ignorance and with zero evidence.
Turns out my old friend is still a manager at Bosch.
I haven't spoken with him in quite a few years but I remain 100% sure that there is *no way* any sort of emissions cheating would be allowed on his watch. NO WAY.
He was one of the most ethical dudes I have ever met. I may be in contact with him again soon and will discuss the the VW cheating to whatever extent he is willing to discuss it without revealing proprietary info.

thecardoc3

http://www.autoserviceworld.com/vw-and-audi-returning-green-car-of-the-year-awards-vehicles-deemed-ineligible/

stevedebi

ruking1 said:

...
More on direct point, I do NOT know if (especially since CARB had certified my 2009 Jetta TDI as passing with flying colors any number of times ) my 2009 Jetta TDI is out of compliance. I challenge and defy them to prove it. So for example, even AFTER it (the reflashing) is done, I STILL will NOT know! Both actions are not transparent at all!

Your 2009 Jetta TDI is out of compliance. It passed the CARB certification because all they do to test is check the OBDII port in the car. Even if they had tried tailpipe testing (which they don't), it would have passed under EPA conditions.

But yes, after testing, you still will not know - but the EPA will, because they will have tested the updated CPU firmware that VW installs.

ruking1

Let's see, those tests never measured anything, which I and others have said any number of times. CARB will never cop to the truth. If you and /or I did that to them, we'd be sharing a cell working off felony fraud convictions.

So you start off not knowing, you measure nothing any number of times. You now are absolute sure mine is off? Screw emissions. So how good would you be in Vegas? We will take the 2009 Jetta TDI to Vegas and get any car ( so many more diesels to chose from since 2009 ) to replace it with the powers of clairvoyance.

avalon02wh

gagrice said:

avalon02wh said:

Saw this on the Minnesota web site today.

Turns out that higher mpg is not the same as creating less CO2 when comparing RUG to diesel. As an example, my Altima generates 284 grams per mile of CO2 while a diesel Passat is sending 298 grams per mile out the tailpipe. This is the case even with the VW getting a combined mpg of 34 while the Altima is 31 mpg. The Altima also uses less oil per year with an Annual Petroleum Consumption of only 10.6 barrels a year as opposed to the diesel Passat at 11.2 barrels. The answer to why the Altima creates less CO2 can be found at http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=307&t=11 “About 19.64 pounds of carbon dioxide (CO2) are produced from burning a gallon of gasoline that does not contain ethanol. About 22.38 pounds of CO2 are produced by burning a gallon of diesel fuel.”

For me it is even more obvious, the best vehicles in the family sedan category are powered by RUG engines.

Nice try but no cigar. Average MPG for the Altima on Fuelly is 30 MPG, with the average for the Passat TDI is 40 MPG. The Passat is in the top ten best mileage cars on the highway. That means using your numbers from the EIA the Altima puts out 285 K/Mile and the Passat TDI puts out 254 K/Mile. You are the one causing GW. If you insist on 31 MPG many Passat owners are getting high 40s.

It looks like most people are Not getting what they paid for in Mileage with the Altima. From the EPA site it is even worse with the average Altima MPG being 28.8. Heck my 5000 lb Touareg gets that good and I drive it 80 MPH on short freeway trips. Hard to keep that 400+ lbs of torque below 75 MPH on the highway.

Most VW TDI owners are very happy with their cars and 3 of the top ten mileage vehicles are VW TDIs. Pretty amazing considering how few their are on the roads.

You are missing some important details. First, as of today:
There are 2671 Volkswagen Passats with reported gas mileage parked at Fuelly.
There are 960 Nissan Altimas with reported gas mileage parked at Fuelly.

If you look at the graph on this page you will see that sales of the Altima are about 3 times more than the Passat.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2014/01/analysis-defining-success-for-the-new-chrysler-200/

Here is the percentage of 2014 owners of each vehicle that register on Fuelly.
96649 419 0.43%
335644 61 0.02%

Only 0.02% of 2014 Altima Owners go to Fuelly. About 20 times more 2014 Passat owners register at Fuelly. So the question is, why do more Passat owners go to Fuelly?

People go to Fuelly to brag and see where they stand compared to other owners. Notice that a majority of the engines listed for the Passat are diesel. The same thing happens with Prius owners as over 4,000 are registered on Fuelly. Passats TDIs are a bit of a one trick pony as the biggest draw is fuel economy – not so much with the Altima.

The Passat TDI is often bought for its highway MPG. This does not mean that the Altima does not get excellent highway mpg. Without actual statistics comparing the % highway/city, speeds and other conditions like wind one cannot do a good comparison. I did notice that more than a few Altima owners were able to get 40+ mpg on the highway. One person reported a high of 45.6 mpg with 90% highway driving.

I have personally seen 42.8 mpg traveling at 70 mph. I have no doubt that the car would hit 44 mpg at 65 mph as Consumer Reports found out.

The 2016 Altima is rated at an additional one mpg which suggests even better real world mpg.

When we crunch the numbers we see that the $332 savings over 100,000 miles hardly justifies the several thousand dollar delta between the Passat TDI and an Altima.

Price MPG Cost/100k
Rug $2.293 44 $5,211.36
Diesel $2.488 51 $4,878.43
. $332.93

And finally, it will be interesting to see if the TDI mpg numbers hold up once the cars are updated.

nyccarguy

"People go to Fuelly to brag and see where they stand compared to other owners"

I'm on Fuelly. I don't use it to brag by any means. It is just something I think helps me track my mileage and spending.

I'd also like to disagree with you that a Passat TDI is a "one trick pony." I test drove one last summer before I purchased my 2015 Legacy. It had a very nicely finished interior, handsome styling, rode "Lexus" smooth without being too soft, had limo-like accommodations in the back seat, and a massive trunk. It would have made an excellent commuter vehicle for my 65 mile per day/6 days a week trip to work. I'm sure I would have gotten mid-high 30 mpg with the diesel motor which was not over powering, but had just enough get up & go for my needs. I ultimately decided against the Passat because having AWD is important to me (and I'm too damn lazy to switch summer & winter tires every 6 months). Long term VW reliability is something I'm not too sure of (although @ruking1 has had phenomenal ownership experiences with his VWs) as well as lower than average resale value (I drive 20K per year).

stever

I'm not sure I'd trust the Altima gasser emissions numbers either. Carlos is protesting rather loudly.

VW scandal: Renault-Nissan CEO criticises US crackdown on European diesel cars (ibtimes.co.uk)

I suppose the VW engineers are working on "the fix" almost as hard at the automakers' lobbyists are.

nyccarguy

A big thumbs up from Motor Trend on the new Chevrolet Colorado with DuraMax Diesel: http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/first-drives/a26915/2016-chevrolet-colorado-diesel-first-drive/

carboy21

stever said:

I'm not sure I'd trust the Altima gasser emissions numbers either. Carlos is protesting rather loudly.

VW scandal: Renault-Nissan CEO criticises US crackdown on European diesel cars (ibtimes.co.uk)

I suppose the VW engineers are working on "the fix" almost as hard at the automakers' lobbyists are.

Me thinks the EU boondoggle was created for the benefit of the German and French car lobby.

But the Greeks took them for a "ride" LOL

gagrice

I'm on Fuelly. I don't use it to brag by any means. It is just something I think helps me track my mileage and spending.


I went to Fuelly to get a good idea what to expect. I would imagine many don't post if they are getting less than EPA rating. I wish my 26.6 MPG overall was higher on my Touareg TDI. I am not near the top, still over the EPA rating. And a full 10 MPG better than the Sequoia I sold before buying the Touareg. I don't know of a gasser in the Touareg class that is even close in real mileage. Luckily I have four other diesel SUV choices if VW self destructs in our market.

gagrice

nyccarguy said:

A big thumbs up from Motor Trend on the new Chevrolet Colorado with DuraMax Diesel: http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/first-drives/a26915/2016-chevrolet-colorado-diesel-first-drive/

I still wish someone would offer a small diesel PU. The GM offerings are 225 inches long with the same 140 inch wheel base of the Ram 1500 diesel. Time to end the Chicken Tax and get some small PU trucks back in here.

gagrice

avalon02wh said:

gagrice said:

avalon02wh said:

Saw this on the Minnesota web site today.

Turns out that higher mpg is not the same as creating less CO2 when comparing RUG to diesel. As an example, my Altima generates 284 grams per mile of CO2 while a diesel Passat is sending 298 grams per mile out the tailpipe. This is the case even with the VW getting a combined mpg of 34 while the Altima is 31 mpg. The Altima also uses less oil per year with an Annual Petroleum Consumption of only 10.6 barrels a year as opposed to the diesel Passat at 11.2 barrels. The answer to why the Altima creates less CO2 can be found at http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=307&t=11 “About 19.64 pounds of carbon dioxide (CO2) are produced from burning a gallon of gasoline that does not contain ethanol. About 22.38 pounds of CO2 are produced by burning a gallon of diesel fuel.”

For me it is even more obvious, the best vehicles in the family sedan category are powered by RUG engines.

Nice try but no cigar. Average MPG for the Altima on Fuelly is 30 MPG, with the average for the Passat TDI is 40 MPG. The Passat is in the top ten best mileage cars on the highway. That means using your numbers from the EIA the Altima puts out 285 K/Mile and the Passat TDI puts out 254 K/Mile. You are the one causing GW. If you insist on 31 MPG many Passat owners are getting high 40s.

It looks like most people are Not getting what they paid for in Mileage with the Altima. From the EPA site it is even worse with the average Altima MPG being 28.8. Heck my 5000 lb Touareg gets that good and I drive it 80 MPH on short freeway trips. Hard to keep that 400+ lbs of torque below 75 MPH on the highway.

Most VW TDI owners are very happy with their cars and 3 of the top ten mileage vehicles are VW TDIs. Pretty amazing considering how few their are on the roads.

You are missing some important details. First, as of today:
There are 2671 Volkswagen Passats with reported gas mileage parked at Fuelly.
There are 960 Nissan Altimas with reported gas mileage parked at Fuelly.

If you look at the graph on this page you will see that sales of the Altima are about 3 times more than the Passat.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2014/01/analysis-defining-success-for-the-new-chrysler-200/

Here is the percentage of 2014 owners of each vehicle that register on Fuelly.
96649 419 0.43%
335644 61 0.02%

Only 0.02% of 2014 Altima Owners go to Fuelly. About 20 times more 2014 Passat owners register at Fuelly. So the question is, why do more Passat owners go to Fuelly?

People go to Fuelly to brag and see where they stand compared to other owners. Notice that a majority of the engines listed for the Passat are diesel. The same thing happens with Prius owners as over 4,000 are registered on Fuelly. Passats TDIs are a bit of a one trick pony as the biggest draw is fuel economy – not so much with the Altima.

The Passat TDI is often bought for its highway MPG. This does not mean that the Altima does not get excellent highway mpg. Without actual statistics comparing the % highway/city, speeds and other conditions like wind one cannot do a good comparison. I did notice that more than a few Altima owners were able to get 40+ mpg on the highway. One person reported a high of 45.6 mpg with 90% highway driving.

I have personally seen 42.8 mpg traveling at 70 mph. I have no doubt that the car would hit 44 mpg at 65 mph as Consumer Reports found out.

The 2016 Altima is rated at an additional one mpg which suggests even better real world mpg.

When we crunch the numbers we see that the $332 savings over 100,000 miles hardly justifies the several thousand dollar delta between the Passat TDI and an Altima.

Price MPG Cost/100k
Rug $2.293 44 $5,211.36
Diesel $2.488 51 $4,878.43
. $332.93

And finally, it will be interesting to see if the TDI mpg numbers hold up once the cars are updated.

Are you avoiding your original premise? You were making a case for CO2 being less G/Mile with an Altima than a Passat TDI. I proved with over all averages that was not the case. Not my fault far less Altima owners are proud enough of their mileage to post it. And if you use the EPA the evidence is even more conclusive that a RUG powered Altima spews more CO2 than a Passat TDI. You should be happy you are not likely putting out as much NOx, you are just the major cause of GW.

ruking1

I use Fuelly.com: in citing the (gassers) 14 MB 350 mpg 22/.2, 12 VW Touareg mpg 20.4/ 19.5 figures. . Now I can guess if I could do better/worse, if I were driving them..

I have also gotten feedback from two separate Acura MDX owners with diff years, of 21 mpg on the SOS/DD trek. (35 mpg 12 VW Touareg TDI) Both TDI's are approximately 67% better than their gas or counterparts .

I am also pretty sure that I couldn't in any way drive the gassers the same way that I drive the diesels to post even the lesser MPG. I have been in the Acura MDX on the SOS/DD trek, so I know anecdotally also. The Volvo SUV driver also mentioned about 21/22.

While I like it, with approximately 21,000 on the MB GLK 250 BT, the reliability and durability is as good as the other VW's @ like miles. Yes, I know there are some folks that might rolled their eyes at this observation. So far ZERO defects & issues. However, I have done 4 tire rotations. No DEF calls.

ruking1

stever said:

I'm not sure I'd trust the Altima gasser emissions numbers either. Carlos is protesting rather loudly.

VW scandal: Renault-Nissan CEO criticises US crackdown on European diesel cars (ibtimes.co.uk)

I suppose the VW engineers are working on "the fix" almost as hard at the automakers' lobbyists are.

Evidently, when I made the comment: the obvious end goal was/is to CRUSH diesel, I was/am in august company! But then again to be able to point this out is an obvious no-brainer.

It is easy to see that with much lower fuel prices, that the use more gas at higher prices crowd is/are suffering rather badly. For Europe, this is almost unconscionable, as gas & diesel are over $ 5/6 USD per gal. I'm looking forward from ULSD going from $2.44 to points below $1.85. I actually wish we were paying what folks in Saudi Arabia are paying.

stever

Be careful what you wish for. When gas hits $4 a gallon the Sunday drivers tend to stay off the road, people combine errands or they stay home and order from Amazon. It's like the EV drivers driving everywhere because their "gas" is free.

Or move to Saudi and choke. (statisticbrain.com)

ruking1

For all the chicken little posts on this VW diesel fiasco, how about astrological prediction for VW?

http://news.yahoo.com/volkswagen-brace-potholes-road-ahead-183001957.html

ruking1

stever said:

Be careful what you wish for. When gas hits $4 a gallon the Sunday drivers tend to stay off the road, people combine errands or they stay home and order from Amazon. It's like the EV drivers driving everywhere because their "gas" is free.

Or move to Saudi and choke. (statisticbrain.com)

I'm glad you posted that link! It goes to show that almost everything posted here falls into the chicken little status! If I had posted it, I would be accused of being just another shrill posting.

The United States of America is almost near the bottom! ( cleaner rather than dirtier). This is hugely significant in that none of the seven countries below (aka cleaner than) the United States have anywhere near the cars that the United States has @ 269. 6 M .