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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2011
    I see you missed the parallel that GM (et al) made some truly AWFUL LEADED RG/PG gas cars with sulfur running MORE rampant in the fuel. Or, did you happen to like the smell of leaded R/P? Or did you (not just you) REALLY like more toxic vs less toxic?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    What he is saying, if the Feds had switched to ULSD when they got the lead out of gas we would probably be on a diesel diet like the EU. Leaded gas was far more harmful than high sulfur diesel. So it was the thrust. Oil companies had lots of gas to sell so why muddy up the waters with clean diesel before they had to. That is still not an excuse for the EPA to drag its feet for 25+ years on getting rid of sulfur in gas and diesel. The technology was there.

    Sweden

    Since 1990, diesel fuel with a sulfur content of 50 ppm (0.005%) has been available on the Swedish market. From the year 1992, production started of a diesel fuel with 2 to 5 ppm of sulfur and a maximum of 5% by volume aromatics.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Or all the stated and advocated "transparency" in government the EPA testing procedure and why it was CHANGED due to a Toyota Motors hissy fit (2004 Prius bru ha ha) is beyond me. Perhaps that is why most of the history and background is opaque. :P
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Oh, I see you diesel-sniffers (light-hearted jab) are still complaining about diesel fuel/vehicles being treated "unfairly" in your eyes.

    Can we SOMEDAY stop whining about that? Maybe? Someday? Bueller? Bueller?

    For your own personal mental health, why would you not (at long last!) drop "The Grudge?" :shades: :shades: :shades:
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    edited October 2011
    Drop it? Sure, when cars with manual transmissions and diesel engines start getting ratings which are as favorable as those of hybrids and gasoline powered cars with automatic transmissions.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Can you point out to me a recent review where a modern, clean diesel sedan with a manual tranny got a BAD review? I've seen nothing but praise for the new diesel cars....
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Uhhh, where did I refer to "bad reviews"? What I was responding to was in reference to how biased the EPA tests are for cars equipped with manual transmissions and/or diesel engines.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2011
    On a personal and practical basis operating TDI's (in past and current environments) are pretty seamless. Outside of this board and VW TDI GTG's, I very rarely get into discussions about the 50 mpg+ and other issues. When I do, most folks who really HEAR the fuel mileage are literally STUNNED. Other who are just making conversation think the 40-62 mpg is exaggerated . So as you can tell its better to say nothing most all of the time.

    Passenger diesels are WAY past those days. Just as RUG/PUG are way past leaded regular/premium but you would not think that due to some comments expressed here and in conversations about diesels.

    I mean even the guy who did the "smog only" test on my (previously exempt) 8 year old diesel had it in his head. He even repeated the mantra several times: " all diesels smog" x 6) Finally after app 5 times and 5 trips to red line, I asked him why he did it 5 times when only once is required. It was hard for him to say this diesel does NOT smoke. So he said nothing.
  • hoosiergrandadhoosiergrandad Member Posts: 96
    I've been around diesels on a daily basis since I was a kid, and actually like their smell, unless my nose is in close proximity to the stack. Out here in the hinterlands I've observed girls at tractor pulls wearing T's inscribed "diesel smoke makes me horny". I currently have a total of 8 diesel engines in various trucks and equipment.......enjoy operating them, enjoy their sounds, enjoy their torque. I DON'T like the smell of the catalytic converter equipped gas engine. After saying all that, I still don't particularly desire to have a diesel car. Anyone else feel that way?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I found an old thread using Google where another user basically nullified that argument - that the EPA test is "skewed" against diesels seems to be a myth.

    This forum, actually, back in 2008.

    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f1a9dde/98

    And a BMW forum, see Message #148:

    circlew, "BMW 335d 2009+" #129, 18 Jun 2008 4:16 am
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Nullified that argument? Seriously? I see no such a nullification in either of the threads.

    The thing is, diesel engined cars are capable of exceeding the biased EPA test results by a very significant margin. You don't have to believe it, and you don't have to like it, but that doesn't in any way mean that it isn't so.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    shipo says, "The thing is, diesel engined cars are capable of exceeding the biased EPA test results by a very significant margin."

    That's news?

    Hybrids and EVs do that also.

    What's the point? That the EPA test is not perfect for all propulsion systems? I think everyone knows that, don't they? At least those who care?
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    The difference is the order of magnitude.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I should have edited this better, but what he said needs to be changed from smog to SMOKE. Apologies given for any confusion.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    edited October 2011
    Well, all that DEPENDS on a lot of things.

    For example, if you own a Diesel Jetta for example, and you have MY commute which is about 8 miles one way, half city and half highway, then you won't significantly beat the EPA rating. My best option is a hybrid or an EV. And a lot of people have a similar commute to mine.

    If you own a Diesel Jetta and have a 25 mile, 70+ MPH one-way commute, and you don't have a lot of short trips, you will most likely get considerably more than the EPA rating. That type of commute is custom-made for a diesel sedan.

    However, if you drive an EREV, and have a one-way commute of less than 15 miles, you likely will never buy any gasoline.

    So, I think the key point is that the EPA ratings *ARE NOT* going to mislead an educated buyer who knows what their commute will be.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    CHRYSLER STEPPING UP:

    GC, maybe 300, getting diesel engine
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    As have existed in Europe since like 2005 and even earlier for the vans. It needs to happen - they will sell if reliable.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I kind of like the looks of the GC. I am just not sure I would trust that Italian Diesel. I am sure it is good in the original form. By the time Chrysler got through with the one in the Jeep Liberty it was wrought with problems. Even diehard Diesel fanatics like myself gave up trying to keep them running. I would say they were almost as bad as the lame excuse for a diesel built by GM in the 1970s. I will probably go with German diesel. I think they have their act together better than the rest. I know many are hoping for the Subaru, Mazda or Honda. I just don't know. The Outback would be the only Japanese diesel I would likely consider. Right now I am resolved to keep my 17 MPG Sequoia for long trips. Still got the LS400 and it runs like a top after almost 22 years. And I really like my Nissan Frontier. So to get my stash of cash some auto maker will have to come up with a great Diesel SUV/CUV.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well if Chrysler botches it big time in a diesel 300, that'll just about put the cork on ever seeing another American diesel passenger car in our lifetime.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The Outback would be the only Japanese diesel I would likely consider

    In its current form, Subaru's diesel doesn't meet CARB emissions.

    So that's still a ways off, maybe the next generation?

    Subaru is not using Toyota's HSD, so to meet CAFE they could go diesels instead. Remember they have the handicap of AWD on every model (excluding the soon-to-come BRZ).

    Another thing - future CAFE standards give breaks to large cars with long wheelbases and wide tracks, but Subaru's cars are small-to-medium, yet another handicap.

    They may *need* diesels, so your wish could come true.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    true except for 'capacity to pay more for diesel', which is untrue, because:

    diesel fuel costs less per mile than gas due to the vastly improved mpg, so you'll be paying out less $ than if you got a same-size/similar gas-powered car, even though diesel sometimes costs 5% or 10% more than gas. (if/when diesel is about 33% more than gas, it's a 'wash', same cost per mile.)

    shortly before i started driving diesel VWs , it was 49 cents/gallon for diesel,
    and 87 for gas. seems like i'm done with VW TDIs now.....

    today locally: 3.85 for diesel, 3.55 for gas(87-octane).
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I just filled at Costco here and the RUG was $3.75. The stations I passed with diesel were all at $3.95. So about 5% more for diesel on average around San Diego.

    The average driver posting on the EPA site with a Jetta Sportswagen TDI is getting just over 36 MPG combined. I could not find any posters with a gasser. I guess that is because 85% of the Sportswagens sold were diesel. That puts the TDI at over 30% better mileage than the gas models. And the one that will compete with the TDI performance requires Premium Gas.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2011
    On 2011 Jetta's gasser 27.6 mpg, TDI 38.4 mpg using Costco's 3.75 RUG and 3.95 diesel, the costs per mile driven are . 1359 & .1029 cents respectively. Gasser per mile driven is 32.07% MORE.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited October 2011
    Around me the extra cost for diesel is more, closer to 10%. Varies by region, I realize.

    That eats up about half the fuel savings, unfortunately. You do still get more range, torque, etc.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Speaking of which...

    I got gas for $3.32 on the NJ Turnpike, then got to Darien, CT and it was $3.99! It's almost worth driving to Jersey just to get gas!

    At one station in the Bronx gas was $4.19. Ouch.

    Diesel prices were deep in to the $4s. Scary.

    My brother-in-law (works for an energy trading company) taught me to follow Brent prices rather than crude oil, because that's where the NE supply comes from.

    So we're sharing oil with Europe, basically. That could be why diesel costs more in this region vs. other parts of the country. We're not getting oil from pipelines that come from Texas.

    Any truth to that? Wish I'd asked him more about it.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2011
    Unfortunately yes. Diesel prices are kept artificially high for a host of reasons, almost none of them being the reality. I have read that up to 17% of the (overall) US refineries diesel products (RUG to PUG also but not even a clue as to the percentages) are EXPORTED. If that was kept at "home" prices would literally plummet, as would RUG to PUG prices.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Happened to check the pumps yesterday. Gas is still holding at $3.59 here but diesel is $3.97. Can't remember seeing the price difference being that high for months. I'm not exactly in an area that pumps a lot of either though.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Around me, gasbuddy says you'll find the cheapest gas for $3.31 but cheapest diesel is $3.69, plus fewer stations carry it so you may have to drive farther to get that price.

    Closest diesel to me is $4.10, though. Ouch. Gas is $3.59 at the same station.

    So if I shop the cheapest, it's 11.5% more for diesel. If I'm lazy and go the easy route, it's 14.2% more for diesel.

    That sucks, eh? Eats up most of the gains in efficiency.

    They price it as if they simply don't want people buying diesel around here (Mid Atlantic).
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I was hoping someone would step forward with the percentage difference. :D
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    We should remember diesels are usually about 20% more efficient to begin with, so you're still getting savings on a per-mile basis. Just not as much as one might think, at least in this region.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It is an oil company conspiracy. Of course in CA they tax diesel higher as well. I would look for that price difference to spread further as more people buy Diesel cars. Greedy politicians and greedy oil companies. Can't stand to see people getting better mileage out of their fuel.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited October 2011
    ..."Can't stand to see people getting better mileage out of their fuel. "...

    For all the bru ha ha about foreign oil dependency, your observation is spot on AND is probably about the most disengenous. We are literally MANY MANY MANY more times more Saudi Arabia than Saudi Arabia (indeed many times bigger than the whole middle east), when it comes to energy. We are rich and abundant beyond imagination and the powers that be want to make it seem we are utter paupers and armeggedon is a slam dunk certainty. This nimby thing is just a manufactured joke if it were not so utterly tragic.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    We may not be all that far away from being self-sufficient. Lots of natural gas is coming on line, so maybe we'll wind up with PHIL units in our garages in a few years. (peakoil.com)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    I really have been saying that for a long while.Whether it be nat gas or diesel, etc. It is really that truth has not for a while been able to be hidden. It is along the lines of trying to swept the Mount Everest truth under a 2x 3 foot prayer rug.
  • KCRamKCRam Member Posts: 3,516
    Diesel also has to fight with home heating oil (same oil stock, different processing) in this area. Refineries reduce diesel production in favor of HHO right about now, which also causes diesel prices to go up.

    Hess station in my area of northwest NJ is $3.349 for regular unleaded and $3.699 for diesel, and a Sunoco is $3.339/$3.679. Sunoco near my parents in northeast NJ is $3.299/$3.699.

    kcram - Pickups/Wagons/Vans+Minivans Host
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    My brother-in-law uses HHO at his house in CT and when I asked what he spends annually on his heating bill I was like :surprise: !
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    $350 a month?
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    We use HHO for our house, and there have been months where $350 is less than a third of our bill. :(
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Mein GOTT! :surprise:

    Well I hope it's a *nice* house at least.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Let's put it this way, our monthly bill for HHO last winter exceeded our mortgage payment three times. :sick:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    NOW I know why 2 million Americans are living in mexico.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    My BIL spent some $2 grand for the year. CT is cold so I guess you could say that's for 5-6 months or so of use.

    Crazy.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    We're in New Hampshire; the oil truck rolls up to hour house once in August, then starts regular runs in November through April. I sure wish we had Natural Gas up here.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    We have gas. Our bill usually peaks at just over $300, even then that's only for the 2 coldest months.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    There is no excuse for using diesel to heat. With the abundance of NG in the USA, there should be lines running everywhere. Probably regulations and redtape. Heck we are very close to NG lines and still tied to expensive Propane. Nothing like Shipo has paid with HHO.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Natural gas is within ten miles of us (south across the NH/MA border); the only place within New Hampshire with Natural Gas (at least the only place I know of) is Portsmouth where it is brought in by LNG tanker ships.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited October 2011
    My in-laws are too cheap to convert from propane to natural gas, even though they could go in with the neighbors and extend the line just a little ways for not that much money.

    My alley neighbor ran out of home heating oil last week and had to order some. I have maybe 5 or 10 gallons of really old stuff in a tank in my basement that I'd like to give her, but I guess it's too old to trust anymore. The guy who lived here when they converted the furnace in the 90s was sure that natural gas was going to run out, so he refused to remove the tank and lines and stuff. There's also a wood stove down there that could be hooked up; guy covered all the bases. :P
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I am sure it would burn and put out heat. Just not familiar with the systems used today. Use it to start your campfires. Get some old pallets and go down to the lake. Have a big bonfire party.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Audi reports best U.S. October sales in its history; tenth record-setting month of 2011

    The Audi Q7 TDI clean diesel model accounted for 43.0% of the sales mix in the lineup for the month and 43.0% mix for the year. Year-to-date Audi A3 sales increased 4.7%, with 412 vehicles sold in October. As consumers continued to show a preference for efficiency, the Audi A3 TDI clean diesel model accounted for 45.0% of the total A3 sales mix for the month and a 55.0% mix for the year.

    I need to go test drive the Q7 TDI. Kind of ugly in my eyes.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    When will the domestics and Japanese get their act together?

    Total diesel units sold for October were up 110.9% with sales of 1,930 (vs. 915 units sold in Oct. 2010).

    Now if MB will bring the new ML 250 Bluetec, I will buy one, maybe.
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