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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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For a number of years I've been pointing out that most diesel fuel is burned by trucks & trains, plus the heating oil that has also been mentioned.
Those demands aren't especially price elastic -- if the price goes up, the demand doesn't necessarily go down; the increase is simply passed on to the end user. For gasoline, no so much, and the thieves who control the gasoline supplies are well aware of this. If gasoline goes up too much people adjust their driving habits and demand goes down significantly.
For diesel, not so much.
I still remember filling my two 85-gallon saddle tanks in La Grange, Texas, in 1978 for 40 cents a gallon (road tax was paid separately). Two years later it was over a dollar, and it hasn't stopped going up since.
It will be sold with two gas and two diesel options. With the TDI and DSG 4Motion it is rated at 5.7 liters/100 km which equals 41.27 miles per gallon (US). That would be good for me. It has the needed ground clearance to handle our CA roads and ease of entry and exit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUaR49BXew8
It has of course: two fuel options, two power options, old style station wagon, suv, suv cross over, 4 wd, performance cues and more sports car-like handling. I would take it also has the new option DSG (which in of itself revolutionizes the automatic slush box segment) with a 6 speed manual standard?
For me personally, I have never took much of a shine to station wagon styling (even as I had SUV's) and 4 wheel drive. As an aside, 41+ mpg is pretty radical for an all track vehicle.
Bring it over as a TDI only. I might test drive it.
on day two of our drive, we met the cousin with the better personality, the longer legs, the Sophia Loren cheekbones and the killer personality: the 2.0 liter turbo-diesel with the manual transmission. We drove her through the winding back roads north of Florence amidst the Chianti vineyards, villages and Fiat fix-it shops, but she refuses to come to the States. You see, she will only date Europeans.
All that and it got +5mpg on the gasser. :sick:
one reason is that with gas at 3.07 locally and diesel at 3.89, there is no cost advantage to diesel here
HUH? Perhaps you cannot do mathematics
My TDI *averages* 50MPG and peaks as 56MPG. This is over 2X the MPG of many gasoline vehicles.
This means that diesel would have to cost MORE THAN DOUBLE of gasoline just to break even. As long as diesel cost is less than double gasoline, I hope my TDI goes another 130,000 miles.
Per the EPA web site, Golf TDI in owners' hands average 38.3mpg with auto and 43.5 with manual.
From the same source the Golf 2.5l gasser gets 28.2 and 30.1. So the diesel still gets a significant 36% or 45% gain, but elias would pay 27% more for the fuel.
So it still costs less to fuel up, and you get better range, more torque, etc. No tune-ups, either.
Of course, you pay more up front. Resale is strong so you'll get most of it back.
Let's use your examples, and "local prices" @ 3.63 RUG/30.1 and 4.09 D2/43.5
='s .12 cents /.094 cents per mile driven respectively, like for like models. Per mile driven RUG is 27.6% more expensive.
I'm surprised that diesel hasn't come down by now. We're having a mild winter and came close to a record high yesterday. People want snow, but they like not having to burn through their heating oil as fast.
Around me, gas prices keep dropping, diesel remains steady.
Forest service charges $25 per cord for a permit to gather your own. I need a big diesel truck.
Actually, mine is pretty average for most TDI owners who KNOW how to drive a TDI.
I have measured EVERY drop of fuel which has been pumped into my TDI and have a spreadsheet which calculates all the nuances. The *real* number is cost per mile. Which is able to compare EVERY mode of transportation on the planet.
I have several other 'arguments' that support driving a TDI over a gasser. All of which have been thoroughly researched.
I maintain my stance that you elias has not done all of the necessary research if he feels that slightly more costly fuel is a reason to NOT consider driving a TDI.
BTW: You cited the EPA website for MPG numbers. I am certain I could beat any of the MPG numbers on that site for any of those vehicles. Anyone can learn driving techniques which improve MPG numbers. However, many people are oblivious to their driving and pay little attention to this risky task.
Crude prices dropped more than $7 a barrel in the last few weeks, per CNN.
They love 'em, though, even though here in northern CA they are paying .30 cents more than premium.
By your logic, people who KNOW how to drive a gasser could improve their MPG by 50% over average too.
I believe that one of the reasons why Wayne Gerdes (anyone can google) the mpg guru, stays with gassers to get his very high mileage results is that what he does is an object lesson of sorts and most of his target audience drive ... gassers. I think he would lose some credibility if he did his schtick with the few available TDI's.
This is purely op/ed AND I have never met nor have had any dealings with bpeebles, but my mpg results are in line with what he states. It is easy to get 50 mpg with literally no effort. All I reasonably do is keep the speeds under 95 mph :shades: In a grueling highway 101 commute (our host Shiftright will attest) the mpg range has been 48-52 mpg. The range of mpg has been 44 to 62 mpg over the life of the vehicle and it has app 175,000 miles.
On Shiftright's TDI observations, yes 40-45 mpg has been the practical range of the DSG TDI Jetta. (up and down highway 5, and in Portland, Vancouver BC, Seattle. terrible traffic jams) On recent trips (fuel tank fills) I have gotten 42 mpg. Again no real effort. All I did this time was keep it under 95 mph. I suspect I could post better mpg with the 6 speed manual.
Bingo, that sums it up well.
However, the important thing is that we should still see a similar advantage, in terms of percentage increase in fuel mileage overall, for most driving styles, including hyper-miling.
So the % comparisons are still valid.
So now a $0.70 difference, or 21%.
That erodes the diesel efficiency advantage, but doesn't eliminate it entirely.
I am still waiting to hear from MBUSA on the ML 250 Bluetec. A full size luxury SUV that can get 40+ MPG out on the highway would be in my garage.
ML250 Bluetec
Thing is, for diesels to sell in volume, we need the TDI and Cruze diesel plus others, and those compete with 87 octane gassers.
We also need to see the price discrepancy shrink a bit. As gas engines get more tech (like DI) the gap should evaporate.
But, on the other hand, they're paying that .30 cents less frequently.
Considering that crude prices are down the UK pump prices are staying up with ULSD being circa $8.5 per US Gallon equiv. Unleaded Gasoline is around $8.2 per US Gallon equiv. The Government are making good money, (taxes).
I would bet neither of them are MANUAL xmission. Also, the newer TDIs get worse MPG than my 2003. Unfortunately, meeting the EPA rules combined with more power-output makes the MPG lower than my 2003.
This is why I continue my mantra.... I really hope my 2003 TDI lasts another 130K miles. With the 12-year/unlimited miles warantee, the body is covered.
I've driven 400k miles on 4 diesel VWs and have had plenty of time to do the arithmetic about fuel cost per mile. the VW diesels' MPG range was from 37 mpg to 48 mpg, passat, jetta, new beetle.
When I started on the diesel VWs in early 2000s, diesel was 48 cents per gallon and 87 octane was 95 cents per gallon.
Today diesel is $3.90 and gas is $3.07 , and I've dumped VW diesels and selected a similar-size gas-powered vehicle to the Jetta TDI, for waaaay less cost.
My new gasser gets 34 mpg... Same fuel cost per mile as 44 mpg in a diesel (2006 VW jetta got 44 mpg consistently), at today's fuel costs. At today's prices, the cost per mile is a wash, same for diesel & gas, for a similar vehicle. It's real simple when the price delta is 33% ($3 vs $4), because the diesel mpg advantage varies between 20% and 40% typically. So 33% is close enough - it's the "break-even point" ...
Edmunds has a 2011 a Jetta TDI and for the last 9 months and 15,000 miles, they have averaged 35.4 mpg. It IS an automatic however.
I do indeed have a Slide Rule sitting next to my computer at home. It is a great contrast to the progress.
However: You must have missed my past append where I said that I have a spreadsheet tracking every drop of fuel pumped into my TDI. Believe me, I do infact know where I stand even with my Diesel fuel over $4 gallon.
Also, as I mentioned in past append, there are several other arguments for Diesel including lower maintenance costs over a gasser. (no ignition-system to maintain or break)
Well, lets see - below I list some common maintenance items I perform on my vehicles. Most are PM (Preventive Maintenance) tasks.
(D=Diesel, G=Gasser, B=both)
G) Change sparkplugs
D) Use fuel conditioner
It looks to me there is not very much which is different. Perhaps you are correct in suggesting that the cost to maintain is not much different either.
The fact still remains that Diesel gets about 30% better MPG than comparable gasoline engine. (Due to Diesel fuel having more BTU per volume)
By the way I have gone to Mobil One synthetic on my Sequoia at an indy shop. I was not willing to pay $175 at Toyota. So it is not just Lexus that are rip-off artists. It is Toyota corporate wide.
http://www.calrecycle.ca.gov/UsedOil/OilChange/
I do 7,500 mile intervals on my minivan, with a few changes where I let it slide for several thousand miles beyond the factory recommendation.
From what I've read, 10,000 mile intervals have been the norm in Europe for a couple of decades, including all the diesels over there. I think Americans were mostly sold a bill of goods with too frequent oil changes.
It is pretty plain to see that IF 3,000 miles is the qwikie lube party line, and probably more important 20-50 dollar economic driver: THEN a 30,000 miles OCI improbably can be seen as devastating and in need of being vilified, savaged, etc. etc..
Sounds like a plan. :shades:
It is also well know that not only are most cars actually specified for 10,000 miles, (and more is the upshot) but IF they can not meet the OCI mileage protocol, they are not deemed to meet the specification. The example being the VW 504-507(gasser/507 D2) specifications.
Seems better to recycle the oil instead of burning it. It's not like it wears out, it just gets some dirt in it and needs the additives refreshed.
Looks like some relief is on its way:
Diesel Prices Fall at Sharpest Pace Since May 2010 (joc.com)
Average price is $3.828.
Year, Make, Model, Passenger Volume, Cargo Volume, EPA combined, Price
2012 Hyundai Sonata SE 104 16 28 $23,855
2013 Chevrolet Malibu Eco 100 14 30 $25,995
2012 Hyundai Sonata Hybrid 104 11 37 $26,545
2012 Toyota Camry Hybrid 103 13 41 $26,660
2012 Kia Optima Hybrid 102 10 37 $27,250
2012 VW Passat TDI SE (AT) 102 16 34 $27,895
2012 Ford Fusion Hybrid 100 12 39 $29,395
I put them in ascending order by price, for similar models (not cheapest because the Eco is well equipped).
Using the Sonata SE as the fuel economy benchmark for non-hybrids, gas was $3.39 this morning, diesel $4.09, you can adjust for prices in your region but this is my post so here goes...
Benchmark (Sonata SE) cost per 100 miles is 100/28=3.57*$3.39 per gallon=$12.11.
Eco cost per 100 miles is 100/30=3.33*3.39 per gal is $11.30, so you save 81 cents every hundred miles. To make up the $2140 premium you would have to drive 264,198 miles. Assuming the chinese-made eAssist motor and the batteries last that long.
Creating an Excel spreadsheet to make life easier, and I get:
73,014 for TCH
91,253 for Sonata vs. Sonata
115,169 for Optima Hybrid
162,098 for Fusion
264,198 for Eco
5,013,139 for TDI (because diesel costs $4.09)
Manual TDI is cheaper and gets 1 mpg better, but it still takes an eternity to break even (i.e. you likely never will).
But...more torque, 700 miles range per tank, one might argue the TDI is *better* and arguably worth paying more to own and operate.
On two diesels 03/09 TDI's the VW oem recommendations are @ 10,000 miles OCI's. MANY (on other web sites) have done oil analysis (across the spectrum, if you know what I mean) on VW recommended 10,000 miles and found them to be below boring (well within known oil analysis parameters- wear rates/per 1,000 miles), and boringly consistent and GTG for 20,000 miles and beyond. In fact, many "oil gurus" indicated that below 50,000 miles, oil analysis (for clean VW diesels, unless you suspect engine warranty issues) are literally a complete waste of time, effort and monies.
What folks will not find out (if they do not do 20,000, 25,000, 30,000 miles OCI's) are that OCI's of 10,000 miles show more aggressive numbers ( MORE wear per 1,000 miles)
Indeed I have issued a standing challenge (to the population who reads and cares about TDI engine oil analysis) to send me a prepaid sample cup from the lab of THEIR choice and have me draw a sample and let them analyze it and let the results be sent back to them. NOBODY has taken me up on it !!!
I really don't care what your oil analysis says---what good would that do ME? :P