What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

ruking1

Oh so folks now don't like "natural and environmental " odors ? :surprise:

And I get ragged on for not keeping it "family" oriented. (I did flash past an episode of Spartacus, last night)

So, ....smells like fries. :shades:

On a more serious note, I am sure the R&D necessary for " ongoing process" applications" is some years away. The truth is it makes all the sense in the word to adapt or even genetically engineer algae that thrives on THOSE products. There is grey water in abundance that needs to be turned to clear water. Indeed there is plenty of it. It normally lasts the whole life cycle of humans, etc etc.

gagrice

I think cheap $100 per barrel oil is keeping it from going into production. If it had the $2 per gallon subsidy of Corn Ethanol it would probably be a go. My opinion is it should be perfected over time and the price will become competitive. The restaurant we had breakfast at has a 55 gallon barrel by the dumpster with a lock on it. Belongs to some biofuel company. I would say most waste oil is being used these days.

shipo

"Indeed "manufacturing" 3,334 gal per day from each acre (300 acres) per year is about as renewable, organic and environmentally friendly as it gets, etc."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the yield numbers from open air ponds is roughly 5,000 gallons per acre per year, not per day.

ruking1

I am open to suggestion/correction in that the video mentioned 1 M gal per day from 300 acres? (app 2:49m/3:51 m)

I played it several times for it sounded a tad unbelievable or I felt I heard it wrong.

1,000,000 gal /300 acres= 3,334 gal per acre per day. If numbers are true this is beyond exciting: Lesser numbers, it is STILL exciting.

fintail

Sounds like a personal problem, or underposted limits that would be a great example to use on another thread :P

In a diesel, you could contest the ticket..."a diesel can't go that fast!" :shades:

gagrice

Even 3,334 gallons per year per acre would be better than 500 gallons of ethanol from corn per acre per year or 75 gallons of biodiesel from soy or canola per acre per year. Maybe the biggest advantage is not wasting precious farm land raising crops for fuel. Just a few acres of desert is all you need. Power what ever equipment needed with solar and you have a money maker unlike ethanol production.

richardson

That subsidy expired at the end of 2011 for the time being.

gagrice

I think the direct ethanol subsidy to the distributors went away. Not sure about the myriad of subsidies to the farmers and still owners. They keep it complex to hide the truth from US tax payers.

shipo

The numbers I've been seeing reported for the last five or six years now suggests the yield from open air ponds is roughly 5,000 gallons per acre per year, and as much as 20,000 gallons per acre per year when grown in a closed hermetically sealed system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algae_fuel
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1142152/posts

As you said, even if the yield is only 3,334 gallons per year, it is still many times that of other biofuel alternatives.

gagrice

when you add the fact that biodiesel energy is more than double ethanol it makes you wonder why so much energy and resources have been wasted on ethanol vs biodiesel.

shipo

Oh I wonder about more than just that; the problem is, every time I start to wonderin', I get rather angry at the entire ethanol scam.

ruking1

Just on the simplistic notion that this (ethanol) application takes away from food stuff's product production AND causes price disruptions ("unnecessary" price hikes), bio diesel from almost all sources (waste recycling comes to mind) makes all the sense in the world and has a multiplier effect and application vs a loss effect and application. While algae production might mimic take aways from food production, the fact of the matter is that it would actually add to food production with the main goal being biodiesel energy production.

This Yield chart might indicate the bio diesel from algae video announcer mis spoke between daily and yearly yield. This of course would radically affect the mathematics.

Still it has to be figuratively and literally amazing that bio diesel from algae can be 30 to 50 times greater than from soybeans (a ubiquitous and known common foodstuff) (59.2-98 gals vs 3000 gals per acre per year)

Here is an ethanol efficiency of common crops title chart.

In addtion to the production INefficiencies, 1 gal of ethanol vs 1 gal of diesel has significantly lower mpg.

gagrice

Oh, there is plenty of reasons to get angry with our government's meddling in the markets. NAFTA put 1.3 million small corn farmers in Mexico out of business. It seems we flooded their market with subsidized corn. Then a few years later we decide to make ethanol from corn leaving the Mexicans with no corn for Tortillas. Many of the more aggressive Mexican workers migrated to the USA both legally and illegally. They also started planting other crops to sell US via NAFTA. If we were capable of doing things in a refined order, none of the above would have happened. We did not need ethanol. We will likely NEVER need ethanol. It is all political paybacks to the mega farmers and Corporations like ADM.

ruking1

It has been apparent for a very long time, that some of these so called "political" laws really have the goals and intentions of very solid mathematical results.

It has been posted before about the US government's role in getting rid of "small business" farmers (over both long and short periods). They are using the same strategy and playbook, which has the effect of displacing hapless homeowners in today's marketplace. Indeed it is a time honored, tested and validated procedure, aka it works and works WELL, albeit unfortunately?.

Mr_Shiftright

There are legitimate as well as unjustifiable government subsidies. For instance, to help a product "commercialize" (that is, take a proven American product and assist developers to get it to a world market), is a very good idea--even if it fails sometimes in global competition; but ethanol subsidy is indeed, worthless, because the product doesn't work to solve anything.

ruking1

Indeed we can drive the literal tractor trailer rig through the holes in the system. Tractor trailer rigs might actually convey "tiny" rather than how truly "broken" the system really is, ala, fintail.

The new USA discovery of so called "new and absolutely MONSTER" natural gas finds in so called overlays or underlays as the case may be: in previously "thought and proven massively depleted areas" is a case in point. Indeed, given the discovery and (now known) reserves we are far above being the "Saudia Arabia" of natural gas. Indeed we are the MIDDLE EAST and quite literally the WORLD of natural gas !!

Funny thing happened on the way to the forum. Before this massive discovery when there was little logical logistics to provide natural gas, the enviro cons pronounced natural gas the CLEANEST. It is now coming to light the literal and figurativel bankruptcy of the solar and wind concepts (after at least 35 years of lies) . CA not too many years ago mandated natural gas for its (new) power plants. It also set in motion conversion TO natural gas from it less than clean power plants, albeit no logical logistical supply. Post discovery, the politicos's aka BHO administration and democratically ruled Congress seek to make it next to impossible to pull any (natural gas) out of the ground with the latest technology, aka: no fracking. The implications are quiet clear and environmental concerns are a infintesimally small part of that. The nuclear explosion, if I can use the term would be the literal destruction of the high price cost structure of natural gas, which is parenthetically/ironically at historical lows, and trending ...lower. Anyone can google the spot price of 1 M BTU's and read about how CRUSHED the natural gas markets are, if what I say is not believable.

So at less than 3 per 1M BTU's at the same time natural gas in Asia markets sell @ 4 to 5 times that. Indeed Japan has had a nuclear meltdown (literally) and has made the committment to not rebuild the now offline nuclear power plant and further committed to natural gas, which it had no way of getting at the current nuclear site. I have heard the power loss due to the plants destruction @ 10% of the nations electrical consumption. I will stop here at dot connection.

So here we hear folks opining for the land of milk and honey of energy independence from the likes of (foreign) people that hate us...... to higher and higher prices and more scarce energy products. IF I were a betting man, my money is on further, future and more reliance on foreign energy products. So happy days are here again: higher energy prices !!!

Mr_Shiftright

Interesting. As for "fracking" (which doesn't apply to all natural gas discoveries), it is a crazy idea and the sooner it is prohibited, the better off we'll all be. I completely support an immediate shutdown of this practice.

As for offshore NG, that could be a great boon, but of course it will require 2-3 years of infrastructure before we get any of that---in Alaska, make that eve longer. So we may not see any immediate drops in fuel prices even with these huge new sources.

ruking1

Correct, but neither did I say it was the ONLY way.

Anyone that follows the news (even casually) knows that the BHO administration does want more (domestic) energy (and probably more importantly CHEAPER) to be a viable part of the future.

The pricing policy has been ever increasing prices. It use to be based on the "scarcity" of the products. Now it can be any reason and as ludicriously, ANY reason is used and we "buy" it!!! ??? . The unionized gas valve openers took 1 week off to get drunk at NO's mati gra which left a smaller supply, ergo 3% rise in energy prices.

richardson

Now some people say the recent earthquakes in Ohio were causes by fracking.

Mr_Shiftright

I'm slowly seeing a better and better future for diesel cars. I think EVs are going to go bust and I suspect (without really knowing) that political pressures will keep diesel fuel from rising proportionately to gasoline---but I think gasoline is going to go up again, and pretty soon.

gagrice

I think you are right about EVs. We are too dependent on foreign entities for the batteries and electric motors. They are also very limited range wise. Anything beyond commuter vehicles does not make sense. Not to mention the huge investment with nothing much to show for it.

Put the R&D money in researching viable alternatives. Alternatives with longevity. We need to get away from the throwaway society we are becoming.

Mr_Shiftright

That's going to be tough, because the Advertising Industry exists solely to make you throw things away, or if not that, to induce a "permanently unsatisfed" population.

ruking1

If that is true, then man made and natural dams are surely a major cause and in effect should be undammed?

stever

Yeah, there is concern that big dams cause quakes too. Hadn't though about the water pressure aspect getting into the faults; always assumed it was just the weight alone. (internationalrivers.org)

Not sure if this was posted:

Diesel Jeep Grand Cherokee Confirmed for North America (Straightline)

Or maybe you'd be interested in a Porsche Cayenne diesel?

Porsche Details New-Model Rollout Plans for U.S. (Inside Line)

ruking1

I do not think there was a direct comparison. There certainly are no correlations studies in either issue, either.

stever

Sorry for editing while you were posting. See my link for the correlation studies. Makes sense that if you lubricate the rocks and then apply pressure, something is going to slip.

But we're a bit off-topic.

ruking1

Correction :

..."Anyone that follows the news (even casually) knows that the BHO administration does "NOT" want more (domestic) energy (and probably more importantly CHEAPER) to be a viable part of the future."...

Another reason why diesel (biodiesel) is really a core ideal solution, ultimate fungibility. It can literally be manufactured. It also can be manufactured specifically where it is needed; even at the site where it is needed.

Indeed my local fast food place, garbage dump, etc can run my 300 gal yearly consumption rate (15,000 miles commute), rather than the exponentially more costly oil supply logistic system.

shipo

One item which hasn't been mentioned (in this thread at least) regarding microalgae sourced biodiesel is...

Microalgae is a voracious consumer of CO2. I cannot remember where I read this, but the per acre consumption of CO2 and the per acre yield of Oxygen for the hermetically sealed microalgae farms (such as the translucent growing panels used by a Houston area power plant) is on par with an acre of forest.

I'd love to see some more analysis of the levels of CO2 to Oxygen conversion for the various methods of growing microalgae (i.e. open air ponds, covered ponds, and translucent panels and tubes), but it does make sense that the "carbon negative" properties would be pretty high.

Anybody have any more data on this?

ruking1

I would definitely add that to another reason why bio diesel is one of the core ideal solutions.

gagrice

Algae is a great absorber of CO2. Googling the subject and it is being used all over the world to mitigate GHG. I think the future is quite bright for Algae. Once we stop dumping fertilizer for corn in the Mississippi. That just gives algae a bad name it does not deserve.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/videos/2007/0407-possible_fix_for_global_warming.htm-

http://www.powerplantccs.com/ccs/cap/fut/alg/alg.html

http://www.physorg.com/news199006396.html

http://www.carbcc.com/

shipo

As I see it, the dumping of fertilizer in the nation's waterways is just another reason for microalgae. Why? Because microalgae ponds can be used to purge the fertilizer from the run-off before it ever gets to our waterways.

ruking1

Indeed this is (WAY) farther down the practical food chain,(from your post) but currently the regulations prohibit (passenger) diesels that can run on (specified for) 100% biodiesel. It just confirms how ANTI (biodiesel) the system is.

So for example biodiesel (d2) is literally close to or @ ZERO ppm sulfur. Environmentalists lists sulfur ppm as the majority and major source of pollution.So both for argument and mathematical purposes 1 ppm sulfur. So RUG used in the environmentalist approved Prius can be anywhere between 30 ppm to (with off line FEE mitigation) 90 ppm sulfur. Mathematics alone shows this environmental issue to be a straw man. The Prius 'es fuel source is easily 30 times more pollutive than bio diesel and this is not counting the pollution emitted in the manufacture and transportation of the hybrid portion. Indeed lifecycle wise the Prius is known and acknowledged to be WAY more pollutive.

larsb

Why did they not make this a diesel?

2013 VW Jetta Hybrid - why not diesel?

Mr_Shiftright

Again, I suspect it is the inbred resistance of Americans to diesel passenger cars.

Hybrids can jump on the "feel good marketing" bandwagon, especially now that the EV hype is all but over.

Diesels are good, diesels are efficient but alas, diesels are in no way sexy in the world of marketing IMO.

In the Environmental Death Match 2012, I see hybrids as the winner, diesels a distant#2, and EV dead last.

Gas-sipping regular petrol engines will, of course, still gobble up most of the passenger car market.

fintail

I think a lot of it is that diesels require effort. Different fuel, different fueling experience, different servicing, some different driving characteristics. And there's no greenie media hype. Hybrids are the darling, and even when the batteries go kaput, the original owner doesn't care what happens 15 years down the line, as he won't keep it that long in this throwaway world.

Mr_Shiftright

Well there are the biodiesel greenies, but alas, as a public image they don't come across too well for marketing purposes. I really don't think that hauling used peanut oil to your garage, for processing with chemicals, and then to pour into your beat-up 1979 Mercedes 300d, is the best presentation for biodiesel.

if the american trucking industry went totally green, now THAT would boost diesel sales.

ruking1

I am not sure about the rhetorical question? Are you asking why not a TDI hybrid? If so, my guess is the VW mandate to both get sales price down and competitive and to keep costs very low. I also would agree that the (rated and unofficial fuel mileage would be a min of 45% more or 65.25 mpg (from 45 mpg).

I am sure the costs would radically increase, i.e., they are probably using a way cheaper and less power handing 7 speed DSG, etc.,. Conceptually a 7 speed DSG dry lubed, from 6 speed wet lubed) is probably responsible for 1/2 mpg by itself. A lot of other components would have to be beefed up also.

Mr_Shiftright

it's possible a VW diesel hybrid might get FEWER mpg than a regular diesel!!

I mean a TDI and a Prius are neck and neck right now.

ruking1

That could very well be. They are often compared on the mpg issue alone. I would argue they are entirely two different vehicles. Torque and mpg wise, the Camry Hybrid is a more direct competitor.

Mr_Shiftright

but neither drives as well as a TDI.

I really like my friends' new (2011) TDI wagon, although I have to say, from my personal point of view, it doesn't drive quite as nicely as their previous gas Passat wagon 1.8T. Yep, both are stickshifts.

mpg hanging in steady at 42-44, w/ a 24 mile round trip freeway commute daily.

ruking1

Yes, the TDI wagon is the most sought after and has even higher resale value than the high resale valued sedans (all things being equal). It has been true since I got involved with TDI's in late 2002 (bought a 2003 TDI sedan new). They have made so called "constant improvements. " It would seem that the mpg is "fairly" close in that we get 40-47 mpg range in a 54 mile R/T commute on a DSG. My sense is a 6 speed manual probably has a better range of mpg, which our (comparison) figures hint at.

As you know, there are now Passat TDI's .

gagrice

VW is offering the Passat Wagon in the UK with both the 1.6 and 2.0L TDI. The 1.6L gets about 65 MPG US on the highway and the 2.0L about 61 MPG highway. It is 9 inches longer than the Jetta Sportswagen. According to the UK specs the Jetta (Golf) Sportwagen gets less MPG than the larger Passat Estate (wagen).

ruking1

It should be apparent to any hybrid advocate that any of those (smaller) TDI engines offerings here would be better (+30 to 22%) than the Prius offering mpg wise. It is probably a key reason why it is NOT being offered here. :lemon:

I also saw an electric car advertisement saying that the per mile driven (equivalent) is equal to the gassers @ .11 cents per K. The best per K we can get around here is .29 cents. So with gasoline @ 3.88 that is like me wishing telling you diesel is 1.50 per gal. RIDICULOUS !! (I do however wish it were true).

stever

Speaking of gas prices, they jumped to $3.64 here. Diesel is holding at $3.89 so the differential has rapidly shrunk in the last couple of weeks from that 50-plus cents difference that was around most of the summer.

The way it's going we could have parity by the time home heating fuel season is over.

Our kwh rate around here is 16.8 btw.

ruking1

I do not want to give the impression that .29 cents is the base rate, it is not currently. However, it is the tiered rate (above baseline) I would have to pay if I drew power from a $2,000+ power adapter installed in my home. The adapter would be taxed, as well as the cost of installation. I would also be penalized (by rate and law regulation) for the overage, aka being a (now) gross user. This does not include any permit fees. I am sure the municipality would tack on some business tax fees, and yearly renewals, plus raise the assessed value on my house for the next 30 years. So inculcated in the law are various financial vilifications for being "green".

gagrice

I am sure you would have to have a permit to install an EV charger. Today the permit in San Diego for adding solar panels is $500+ depending on your array. My electric bill averaged $91 last year and I always got to the 37 cent per KWH tier. I just don't see any advantage to an EV. Other than feel good and show off your Greenness.

Diesel just offers so much more than any of the alternatives. If Algae biodiesel ever gets its just dues it will be even better. Now if we could get some decent SUVs and PU Trucks with 4 cylinder diesel engines all would be good.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't think 4 cylinder diesel pickups will sell---they can't tow anything. Small 4 cylinder diesel SUVs might find a niche--like the CRV, etc.

ruking1

To tow no. Ford, Chevy and Dodge have long had two products sizes 2/3 in the stump pulling segment.

But there has been and probably still remains a lot of folks whom a small pu ( turbo diesel) (i.e.,Toyota Tacoma) would be ideal.

Mr_Shiftright

I'm very skeptical of that because American buyers don't like to downgrade, once they've become used to something. I think the mini-pickup market is pretty much dead now. The whole image of pickup truck is now "macho" (or macha, as the case may be). :P

Possibly the Wrangler could use a diesel, since it is a pretty awful vehicle to drive every day anyway--but even this rig now has a modern V-6 as standard equipment.

I see small diesels as going into small cars and that's about it for America, IMO.

ruking1

One optimum might be the 3.0 L (and slightly up) V6 turbo to twin turbo diesel,. 406 to 425 # ft of torque used to be super car numbers !!!