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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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Q7 YTD is 7,474, so 43% of that is 3,214 TDIs.
A3 YTD is 5,435 so 55% of that is 2,989 TDIs.
And Audi is having a great year.
Meanwhile Toyota sold 14,184 hybrids in a miserable month.
The Lexus CT beats the 10 months of A3 TDI sales in about 2 months. The A3 sales are closer to HS sales levels, i.e. disaster.
I didn't see any Prius V sales counted yet, either. The local dealer has 7 of them so next month we'll start seeing those sales start to tally up.
We need more diesel options, though. The A3 is ancient. The Q7 is way too expensive. Let's see more, newer volume models. The Jetta doesn't do anything for me.
Let's put it this way, EVEN in the US market where it has a following, the hybrid passenger cars are less than 5% and that is with more than a decade of hard marketing. The passenger diesel markets are 5% with hard vilification, being "banned" and an almost dismal lack of choices.
Hybrids do well in the USA because diesels don't do well.....that's all....
You might want to rework the meaning of your second paragraph. Again I don't think even you believe that. IF there were as many diesel choices as their are hybrid choices, diesels would do even FAR better.
IF there were as many diesel choices as their are hybrid choices, diesels would do even FAR better.
Those two statements mean the same thing....
I came to these forums a Hybrid fan, and a hater of diesel exhaust smell (it makes me sick) and therefore I had a fairly negative attitude toward any diesel car/truck.
I quickly found a large number of diesel fans were SLAMMING hybrids. So, as the proud owner of and believer in hybrid technology, I of course started firing back at them - in self defense !!!
Then I started absorbing all the facts about how diesel engines are designed to be more fuel efficient than the average gasoline engine, and the worm started to turn. I became a fan of diesels because of their fuel efficiency; but was (and still am) a bitter opponent of STINKY DIESEL EXHAUST.
If it's new clean diesel fuel in a new clean diesel engine, then I'm a fan.
Older, dirty stuff: still hate it. Always will. :shades:
ULSD is sold @ the pumps from 15 to 7 ppm sulfur and RUG/PUG @ 30 ppm and with fee mitigation up to 90 ppm sulfur. Biodiesel which from many points of view is BETTER, can be as little as ZERO ppm sulfur.
Again, (from an op/ed point of view) in the past (2003/2004) I have serious considered hybrids.
True, but primarily due to supply disruptions. Toyota has once again cut production in KY, Indy, Texas, and Canada due to the Thai floods.
Hasn't really been a fair fight.
I like diesels, and Audi's example shows us that when a diesel is offered, people will bite. I'd just like to see real volumes here. Cruze may do that.
I just cannot imagine anyone wanting high mileage as well as performance buying a hybrid
That's true - hybrid buyers look for economy, not performance.
But....diesels may face a challenge from DI/turbo small displacement gas engines. In that case you do get performance.
I don't get that, either. You think any fan of fuel efficiency would want both. In fact, why not a diesel-electric hybrid?
You could even avoid heavy batteries and build one with KERS.
I think that challenge has always been there . A lot of the comparisons comes off as apples to oranges, so I think it is sometimes to always hard to compare on an even playing field so to speak.
VW as you and most folks know have like model turbo diesels/gassers and normally aspirated. Indeed one can add a V6 to the mix. For my .02cents the turbo diesel is what I prefer.
I'm sure it depends upon the application.
C&D just did a B-segment comparo and the DI-equipped Hyundai Accent was both quickest and most fuel efficient.
The DI Sonata is also a segment leader in FE in Consumer Reports.
High initial cost, maybe, but as you've seen you will reach a break-even point eventually, so you can make it up.
nose in the air attitude of hybrid fan boys posting on the diesel threads
Smug emissions.
Though I haven't seen many examples of that on Edmunds.
http://media.caranddriver.com/files/chevy-sonic-vs-honda-fit-hyundai-accent-kia-- rio5-nissan-versa-toyota-yaris2012-hyundai-accent-se-2012-kia-rio5-sx.pdf
0-60 in 8 seconds flat, while getting 33mpg.
Plus, keep in mind diesel fuel costs more than 87 octane gas, which is what the Accent uses.
I don't think the Ford 4 cylinder DI engine will provide performance, mileage and towing capacity equal to a 4 cylinder diesel in the same vehicle. We may never know as I don't see any coming here. I would expect the Edge with DI capable of 35 MPG to compete with the offerings from MB and VW/Audi.
Looked a lot like me, in other words.
They left a few minutes before we did, and dang if they didn't pile into a Prius. I would have bet $100 the 4x4 pickup would have been their rig.
A couple of minutes later their wives left the cafe and piled into the back seat, but still, you'd think the guys would have insisted they take the bigger crew cab. Tried to catch up with them but they zoomed out of the lot before I could finish paying my bill.
The other item of interest was the service station across the highway, a Mobile. Regular gas was $3.59 but diesel was $4.09 - .50 cents more. The logging trucks are mostly diesel I think, so they are really getting hammered right now.
For what it's worth, a domestic fanboy in the "Toyota on the Mend" threads spouted all sorts of hateful stuff when the tsunami came, saying they deserved it, etc. Also banned. Posts were deleted so you may have missed them (a good thing).
Thankfully our hosts do not tolerate that crap.
Back to our regularly scheduled program...
I don't think the Ford 4 cylinder DI engine will provide performance, mileage and towing capacity
Performance yes. Perhaps even better, depending upon the displacement. Look at the EcoBoost engine in the Land Rover Evoque:
Displacement: 122 cu in, 1999 cc
Power (SAE net): 240 hp @ 5500 rpm
Torque (SAE net): 251 lb-ft @ 1750 rpm
Bow-chica-wow-wow!
Also, Ford F150 EcoBoost 3.5l V6 tows more and has more payload than the 5l V8 does. They don't have a light duty pickup with a diesel to compare.
I do think it would be hard to get the combination of ALL THREE, i.e. give it the specific output like the Evoque and gas mileage ain't gonna be there. Or tune it for fuel economy and it's not going to have the same torque output. A diesel manages both at the same time.
Lacks nothing, even torque. And from just 2 liters.
Yeah, price is a big consideration, but we could compare a Polo TDI, which is only a tad slower, but is more efficient. I can't imagine VW could sell it for the $16k an Accent costs. Maybe $20k or so. Par with the CR-Z and Insight.
Thing is, in the USA the extra cost for diesel offsets some of that advantage, so it's about par - similar performance and fuel cost.
CAFE standards have forced automakers to make big improvements on gas engines. 40mpg is common now. That squeezes diesel in a narrow niche between DI gas engines and hybrids.
I agree, though, that diesels will appeal to folks who need the utility (torque) for towing.
You can see the difference in Consumer Reports - the Golf is up to average reliability, even a little better than average, while the new Jetta sedan is troublesome.
$34k is a bit pricey, though. USA or Canada?
I sat in one at the car show in January and I think it stickered for $28k or so. The TDI models have really nice interiors, like the GTI. They are a big step up from the base models. I think it's nice that VW does that - TDI are premium models.
The silver lining is that 4Runners have excellent residual values and are an easy sell on craigslist. It'll be gone in a weekend.
My wife is back on a Prius V kick. I'm pushing to break 200k in the minivan just for the bragging rights, and only have 30k to go.
So the car market is going OK, but the dealers have a seller's market because supply is still short.
Having said that, Fitzgerald Toyota (fitzmall.com) has a small number of Prius Vs in stock.
I'm sure they *wish* they had 120 of them, but at least they have 5.
I get back that way a couple of times a year visiting my sister so a fly/drive would make it easy to pick one up.
But no, I'm not mentioning this to my wife.
I plugged in Prius vs. Golf TDI and the Prius started ahead, and stretched its lead after it was paid off.
It's closer if you can drive stick.
I'd still prefer to drive the TDI, but this lets you compare the energy costs.
Then, for kicks, I compared Volt to TDI, assuming you are eligible for the $7500 tax credit.
It takes 14 years for the Volt to break-even.
The problem is ... by then, will the Lithium-ion batteries still be good? And what about their replacement cost? Truth is you'll likely never break even.
Same concern applies to the Prius, but the NiMH batteries it uses do not concern me nearly as much as the Li-Ion batteries in the Volt, plus the Prius can run even with dead batteries, the Volt can't.
Never mind. Full MSRP pricing, too.
Then again, fair is fair, given no supply and high demand for a brand new model. Dealers have to make money somewhere.
Anyway, MSRP doesn't bother me; because of those supply & demand factors, I bet most dealers are trying for ADM.
But we can wait; we've been kicking tires since before Cash for Clunkers.
That's the fuel-sipper model, the smallest diesel. It makes a Prius look fast, and that Accent that hit 60mph in 8.0 seconds seem like a Lamborghini.
Price £14,445
Top speed 107mph
Acceleration 0-62mph in 13.9 seconds
Average consumption 80.7mpg
Look at the mileage, though. :surprise:
They have a 1.6l diesel, too. I think American consumers would require that engine, at a minimum.
Just read that VW TDI sales have increased 37% over last year to date.
http://www.sacbee.com/2011/11/01/4021872/volkswagen-of-america-sales-increase.ht- ml
Back when 'Yota had the only Hybrid, they were hot chickens, too.
Now, not to say that they are not GREAT HIGH MILEAGE CARS, because you know I know that they ARE. But VDub didn't hang the moon any more than 'Yota did.....
Maybe since it's priced higher it gets a production priority over the Prius V? Seems like it.
If so we won't see much Prius V volume until next year.
Didn't CR just name the CT *the* most reliable car in their entire survey?
Looked it up, they did...that won't hurt demand. You may not care, but CT buyers care about stuff like that. Look for a good November as a result of CR readers.
We should remember that there were actually federal incentives for diesels, I remember when the Jetta TDI came with a $750 federal rebate.
That's 1/10th as much as EVs are getting, though.
Makes you wonder why the truckers aren't driving to Washington.
Gas is dropping fast, $3.45 or so. Diesel is $4.20. :lemon:
What's going on? Why isn't diesel dropping at the same pace?