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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

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  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Well that IS the whole point now isn't it !! ???
  • serj1serj1 Member Posts: 1
    Here is a small scale equipment for making biodiesel. :) ">link title
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2011
    There are actually a series of engine oil analysis (on a specific TDI car- we are talking TDI's correct? ) that show that 20,000 + OCI's are actually less wearing than the VW RECOMMENDED 10,000 miles OCI and defacto the 5,000 miles DEALER wanna interval.

    Amazingly most folks (in the TDI community) just IGNORE the facts and still do the 10,000 (if they are "edgy"). A fair population think 5,000 miles OCI's are just peachy.

    20,000 miles+ OCI? No way?

    There are a few interesting back stories, albeit arcane if anyone is interested. The stories actually have a widespread application. I will admit most folks eyes just glaze over. BIG dividends if one stays awake, GRASSHOPPER.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    For the little amount of money involved, I'd rather take the safe route myself.

    Besides, as I've mentioned before, it's really a good idea to "get in there" under the hood at intervals shorter than 20,000 miles.

    20K OCI gives one this false sense of invincibility I think.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    For the money (% wise) I would agree that the less wear route is better) But as both of us have mention the actions are 180 degrees different.

    I would agree that the need to keep up with "inspections" remains. So for example regardless of 5,000, 10,000, (yes I know this next one starts to freak people out) 15,000, 20,000, 25,000 miles, 30,000 miles OCI's, I still clean my snorkel screen every 5,000 miles. Even as I am running the air filter to 80,000 to 100,000 miles. There are other back stories here. ;)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    So to finish up on the major back story punchline. Given the so called "NEW" VW 507.00 specification (circa 2004) , but only "recently available and acknowledge in the US market, ONLY after 30,000 miles does the wear numbers (per 1,000 miles) approach the so called "aggressive" wear numbers of the 10,000 miles OCI !!!!! The viscosity tends of course to thicken. This will imperceivably affect/effect mpg (albeit .25 mpg). The precision here is of course anecdotal: specifically with 30,000 miles + UOA (used oil analysis). Indeed if the figures are within parameters @ 30,000 miles +, just "topping" will probably suffice.

    I think you would certainly agree the results are not sound bite able and might be even considered vague and confusing.

    So I just change it @ app 30,000 miles and begin the whole game over again. Coincidently the oem filters are rated for 30,000 miles/50,000 kms, so when I change the filter I might as well change the oil also.

    The cost percentages are NOT small, even as the total costs might be considered minimal.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    10k or 15k OCI here on ~25 vehicles over 4 decades with up to ~100k miles each... 4 of them were VW diesels, with the VW-spec oil.
    (for the gassers I use normal mobil 1 for 10k, 15k with the mobil 1 "extended range").
    lately I drive so few miles that one of 2 cars had 8k miles after a year. 1-year interval is a maximum I'd thought reasonable but maybe 2 years is just as reasonable !?!?! !!!?
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2011
    For a number of years, I had an (gasser) SUV like that. It actually took 5 years to achieve the miles (Mobil One 5w30)
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    While it might sound unsavory in print, the fact of the matter from a chemical point of view, i.e., UOA, it is actually perfectly sound. Many of the old husbands tales are literally from automotive experiences much older than most folks have been alive 50- 60 years in my case, longer for most.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Did I mention that the $4 diesel fuel took a big drop around here? Down twenty cents most places. The worse RUG/diesel differential that I've seen recently is fifty cents.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2011
    Filled up twice yesterday, $3.99 in downtown Paso Robles, CA (that was most counterintuitive) and corner store at home 4.09. More prime located fuel stations were app 4.25 to 4.37 per gal D2. I wasn't paying attention to RUG or PUG prices. On the way down to Santa Barbara the traffic was VERY light. We posted 41 mpg on each fill leg, 3 folks in the car.

    On the topic of oil changes, I have seen some news articles in the local rag (front page and vehicle sections) where the CA state regulatory agencies are noting that most Californian's change their oil WAY too often. While I happen to agree, I would wholeheartedly disagree with legislating LONG OCI intervals, as they are talking about !!
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2011
    I thought it was just an ad campaign, not about any proposed regulations.

    Then again, they've about regulated public smoking out of existence so maybe forcing oil change hobbyists to sign a disclaimer or pay a fee every time they dump good oil wouldn't be a bad idea.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2011
    When you can easily get 29- 42 on a hybrid?

    Civic Hybrid, truly one of the best of the breed

    Off topic, on a 2004 Civic (NON hybrid) with 135,000 miles, the mpg range has been/was/remains 38-42 mpg. @ the time the hybrid was app a $7,500 premium.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    I didn't much like the handling of the previous civic hybrid, but maybe the new one is better.
    Also maybe the CR-Z handling is better than the old civic hybrid?

    The reason I would buy the diesel would be the torque & manual transmission. Since CR-Z is manual, again it is interesting to me... :)

    Another reason I would buy a diesel over a hybrid would be if I did mostly/only highway/distance driving.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Diesel is $4.49 in San Francisco and I presume in much of California's metro areas---which are, for better or worse, a gigantic car market.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2012
    Indeed every increasing fuel prices is the design and execution. Natural gas is at its lowest prices while VAST reserves 100 to 200 years over and above already discovered stores have been discovered. This of course has the ability to lower prices even lower than (historical) low. Yet the local nor cal utility will raise natural gas consumption rates.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    natural gas will go to produce electricity I suspect...so the benefits of new reserves will go to electric vehicles. Texas for instance, which you'd THINK was an "oil state" actually is powered and heated mostly by natural gas.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2012
    While that would be "logical," the reverse is actually true. Per mile driven the "electricity" cost is higher than either RUG/PUG or even D2. D2 products are significant as the d2 product population is very small percentage wise. Nat gas vehicles, once converted are much cheaper than RUG/PUG.

    Indeed local electricity rates would penalize increased usage (aka volt etc.) a minimum of 139 %. This is not adjusted per mile driven. Right now it is hard to get a straight answer even from the electrical car vendors as tocost per mile driven electricity.
  • coontie66coontie66 Member Posts: 110
    The plan of the environmental wing of the Democratic party is to make you LOVE wind power and solar energy... The heck with logic and the use of natural gas. Also to heck with the amount of Government it will take to prop up the green adgenda.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Absolutely and posititively. At the same time they do the collective level best to limit places that solar and wind power can be located economically, etc.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Nothing wrong with "propping" up alternative energy technology--not in the development stage, but it is certainly proper and wise for governments these days to prop up the marketing stage--that is, getting the tech to global commercialization. if we don't do it, the Chinese will. That's how they are, right now grabbing the solar panel market away from us.

    The USA has no coherent energy policy--"free market" is not a policy, that is merely an economic idea--it does not "govern".

    As for the cost to use an electric vehicle, this depends on what you have to pay for a Kw.

    in some states, you'd be better off driving a diesel, cost-wise, than an electric.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    One word answer:

    Torque.

    My buddy has a Civic hybrid but he says he has to step on it to get around, and is tired of waiting for the result. He's shopping for a CTS, a nice step up.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.autoblog.com/2012/01/05/2012-mercedes-ml350-bluetec-w-onandoffroad-pa- ckage-quick-spin-review/
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,423
    edited January 2012
    That might be the only time you will see a current style ML in an off road situation that isn't a mall parking lot or unpaved McMansion driveway :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Perhaps, but I kinda like it!

    27mpg, lots of toys to play with, comfy and roomy.

    I would take it to the Deleware shore once just to say I did. LOL

    Mercedes is working on a carbon fiber E-class, emphasis on light weight, which is also appealing to me. Give it AWD and I just may be joining you in looking for depreciated Benz sedans. ;)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,423
    Too wifey for me, but the diesel is certainly the only way to go. Friend of mine got a sweet deal lease on an 11 ML diesel (for his expensive better half), and loves it so far.

    I read about that CF E-class, supposed to weigh under 3000lbs! Put a diesel hybrid or something wacky in it, sky's the limit.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Too wifey for me

    You sure? I'd think the GLK was more female, while the ML is more male in terms of demographics. Especially a diesel. Especially with the off road package.

    supposed to weigh under 3000lbs!

    *drool* :shades:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    edited January 2012
    It does tempt me for sure. I am pretty sure that 30 MPG highway would be easy to attain. I have a friend with a GL350 Bluetec that got 27.9 MPG on his trip from Portland to San Diego. The GL is a quite a bit heavier and bigger. I still would rather have the ML250 Bluetec and get 40 MPG on the highway. I think they improved the looks or I am just getting used to it.

    PS
    The RX is still the Trophy Wife top seller.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,423
    Maybe male purchasers rather than drivers. The GLK is a younger "housewife" kind of rig, for the kind who claims to be such yet has hired help. The diesels were the ones chosen by the buyer, and I'd wager a minority of vehicles actually get the off road package.

    A midsize sedan in the 21st century at a ton and a half? Hard to imagine. Hopefully it won't cost 100K.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'd wager a minority of vehicles actually get the off road package

    Safe bet.

    Hopefully it won't cost 100K.

    It will. S-class price levels, I heard. Wait couple of years, let the former Enron exec pay for 70% of the depreciation, then nab one used.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2012
    The environmentalists have outlawed the majority of off roaring.

    For as long as the Germans have been making cars they still do not do well in the "low maintenance cost" department.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,423
    Maybe it will be unloved and depreciate even faster. Charging E63 money for that car might make it a tough sell, unless something about it is very appealing to the mass market.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I had plans to market a product for people with 4X4s that never go off-road. It was called a "Play Hill" which you inflate in your backyard and let the vehicle climb over.

    what do you think? Am I about to get rich? :)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Let's see, quick Google search...

    E63 has 518 horses pulling 4084 pounds, so each horse is burdened with just 7.9 pounds. Yowsah.

    If the carbon E uses the 302hp E350 engine but weighs 3000 lbs, each pony carries 10.1 pounds.

    So not as quick in a straight line, but...

    Think about braking and handling. The potential would be huge. I bet at least a small power boost would be likely, too.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Filthy rich. :D
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Just don't say "CRD". Lots of new jobs in Detroit:

    http://www.autoblog.com/2012/01/06/chrysler-hiring-1-100-new-workers-to-build-di- esel-jeep-grand-che/
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2012
    I am not up on the latest developments , durability and reliability on the 6 cylinder TDI projected to be used for the Cherokee.

    I do remember some major issues with the TDI used in the past. Minor to major missteps or issues would not bode well for diesels, going forward, if they don't get it right.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,423
    Or what about a tuned bluetec, or maybe some diesel hybrid that could put out crazy power in the right situation? AMG might need to work on this...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm sure they will make sure this diesel will be good from the get-go. Fiat has been using it already, so they did hedge their bets.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Perhaps - I wonder how much the diesel engine blocks weigh?

    We should see a lot of high-output diesels coming soon, though, particularly from Audi, then other German makes.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Foreign makes mostly and American trucks. I doubt Americans will *ever* buy domestic passenger car diesel vehicles again until everyone who was alive in the 1980s has died.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    :D

    Maybe it's because my roommate had some diesel pickups when I was in college.

    These were slow back then (very slow), but durable.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2012
    The V6 VW TDI engine has had good durability and reliability. So has the BMW 3.0 twin turbo put in the 335 D.

    The V6 VW TDI has 225 hp/406 # ft of torque !!! Actually I'd love to have it in my Jetta !!??? The BMW 335 D has 265 hp/425 torque (that second turbo must provide the extra 40 hp and 19 # ft.) and it is a literal MONSTER !! I think it has the tire foot print close to, if not bigger than my Z06 Corvette.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,423
    Probably not enough to make up for the other weight savings. I can't see it weighing more than maybe a few hundred lbs than a gasser. A 3000lb car vs a 3300lb car is still pretty light when it used to weigh 4300lbs.

    For the EU market, there are already quite a few high power diesels, and I suspect they could be made even more powerful with minor tuning. I'd take a performance diesel.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    The Italian diesel in the Jeep Liberty CRD was well tested in Europe before coming here. It was the smog crap they put on for the USA version that caused so many problems. Is this another kludged up add on engine in the JGC? I had high hopes for the Jeep and would have probably bought one if offered in CA. By the time they hit the used market here the problems scared me off. I still have not forgotten my son's Fiat Spyder that nearly put me in the poor house. So I am still a Found in a Toilet guy when it comes to Fiat. I would have been more excited about the GC if they had built a diesel engine from the ground up. Seems like all US companies do anymore is copy someone else's engineering. We used to be the leaders not the followers.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited January 2012
    Well the problem with FIAT in America was that nobody was trained to repair them. If they don't train the US mechanics on the new diesel, you'll see the same disaster.

    Hopefully, by the year 2012-13, American technicians won't find dohc engines and 5-speed transmissions as exotic as they were on 1970 Fiats. The mechanics didn't know how to shim valves for adjustment, for instance, or how to torque alloy engines.

    On the other hand, there was something to be said for the mysteries of Italian electrics, but now---hey, even Harley Davidson uses Italian electronics.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'd take a performance diesel

    Same here, if I could afford it.

    I shouldn't be asking for performance, though, just got 3 speed cam warnings in the mail, yikes!

    It was the one on Canal Rd in DC, before I realized it was there. Limit is 35 but most people drive it like a parkway, 60-65. I got ticketed for 47, which means they must be distributing about one billion tickets.

    All 3 were warning so I got lucky. I'm not trading my Miata for a Prius any time soon, though, even if I have to pay $40 a day to drive it. :shades:
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    For diesel vehicles. With several commercial airliners now using algal biodiesel we are on the cusp of a REAL alternative to fossil fuel.

    http://www.algaeindustrymagazine.com/algae-in-san-diego/
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2012
    Indeed "manufacturing" 3,334 gal per day from each acre (300 acres) per year is about as renewable, organic and environmentally friendly as it gets, etc. IF I understand what they are saying and did the math correctly. Better efficiencies and other improvements are a constant ongoing process'es. It makes all the sense in the world, if one subscribes to the concept of limited fozzil fuel resources and conventional oils, and so called environmental damage. Even with the higher production costs.

    The real issue are the retail bio diesel prices already under cut the supposed cheaper oil infrastructure. Perhaps the real miracle is turning a totally non oil producing (desert)property into 1 M gal, per year , per acre. x 4.$ per gal (retail) .... So even with great abundance, This is almost limitless OVERABUNDANCE !?
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Apparently there are some odor issues with cultivation. So put them near sewer treatment plants. Sewage pond effluent to algae pond to profit. With some production tax credits mixed in of course.

    Would bring new meaning to "my car runs like crap". :P
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