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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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http://www.daimler.com/dccom/0-5-7153-1-1452156-1-0-0-0-0-0-8-7145-0-0-0-0-0-0-0- .html
Americans do not like diesels in passenger cars, and in trucks they like them BIG and LOUD.
That's just the way we are and only necessity or desperation will change us, I fear.
Keep in mind that development costs for new engines is astronomical. Foreign automakers would only bring what they have already over here, and IMO it's not right for us.
As for American resistance to diesels, modern examples are:
A) Quiet
C) Fuel efficient
D) Powerful
E) Cost effective to own and operate for many driving environments
Contrary to your assertions, I'm firmly convinced that diesels can and will succeed here in the States. IMHO, the market share for them will grow rather dramatically over the next five to ten years (it would grow a heck of a lot sooner if we had product), and if we can make some headway on microalgae sourced biodiesel, maybe sooner than that.
"As with many industries in India, the plans of carmakers hinge on uncertain government policy.
"If we invest, and in months, or years, the (diesel) price rises, we are left high and dry," Saxena said on the sidelines of the biennial India Auto Expo.
"We're agnostic," Andy Palmer, an executive vice president at Nissan, said in an interview at the auto show.
"If the government dictates that the diesel price is X, we give you diesel. If it's Y, we say: here's petrol."
Diesel or petrol? (Times of India)
The diesels we are getting are, except for VW, premium level cars and I think this trend will continue.
Americans won't pay the extra to put a diesel in an economy car I don't think.
It costs about $3000 more to equip a car with a diesel engine and the "payback" is way too long for this to make sense in the USA.
BMW has plans to maybe make a 10% mix of diesels in their USA lineup, but if sales aren't strong, they'll pull back---and if BMW pulls out, I think everyone else will, too.
So I think we won't know the true picture until about 2015 or so.
Hmmm, sounds a bit high. Granted it is almost impossible to compare a 2.5 liter Golf with a Golf TDI (a strippo TDI is better equipped than a fully tarted up 2.5 liter model), but I'm not seeing a $3,000 gap.
Assuming Mazda keeps to their promise of bringing the SkyActiv-D Mazda3 to the U.S., the cost differential is supposed to be closer to a delta of $1,000. Time will tell on that one.
*) I Liked my VW Rabbit Pickup (It would easily carry my snowmobile in the back!!)
*) I REALLY like my Subaru Baja Turbo (another small pickup)
I also know that the local Subaru dealer gets DAILY requests for Baja availability.
Whoever brings a small pickup with a diesel engine (economy) to this area will easily sell like hotcakes. I know several carpenters who would love a small pickup with great economy.
My son drove 3-cylinder Geo's for YEARS until he could no longer rebuild the engines. (no more parts) He is looking for a Baja and I know 3 other folks that are also looking for Baja's.
It is unfortunate that the market has somehow convinced Mr ShiftRight and the automakers to ignore this overlooked segment.
Oh- And to counter MrShiftRights contention that Americans do not want to "downsize" their truck.... I USED to drive a Dodge Dakota and found it to be too big and expensive to fuel and maintain. I was very happy to get into the Baja.
My wife and I saw the New New VW Beetle today at Costco. She likes it. If they offer it with the TDI it may be our new runabout. So far they only have the gas guzzler 5 cylinder and the over priced Turbo gas engine.
Dont get me wrong... there is a place for a full-size pickup with a torque-monster Diesel engine. Many farmers NEED that kind of pulling-power to yank a horse-trailer or hay-wagon.
Next Dodge Dakota: Think "Car" and Diesel (Inside Line)
I came close to buying a used compact pickup years ago, but wound up with a wagon. Never had much interest in anything bigger. Could see myself in a Brat or Baja or El Camino. Just not in a diesel one, but y'all have heard that story.
It makes no business sense to me to market diesels in entry level vehicles--it makes more sense the way Audi, Benz and BMW are doing it.
Even a large SUV diesel makes sense because you can justify the extra cost by the fuel savings in the case of pushing a porker SUV around.
This is, after all, why 18 wheelers are diesel and not gas--power to pull and economy of use.
Even as there is political talk about NOT punishing American fuel consumers, there is really not much incentive to use less fuel and to pay less FOR fuel. There is even LESS sentiment in getting getting someone off of the RUG to PUG addiction by using alternative fuels like D2. There is even less than that in the form of one category over: bio diesel. Indeed the real incentive for the higher mileage policy, du jour is to raise the costs and prices due to "compliance". D2 products are just one unwanted and unexpected consequence of that policy.
The difference in MSRP between a Passat diesel and gas is $6000.
How does that make any sense? :confuse:
I suppose you could justify it somewhat by a) claiming that you've "saved" 225 gallons of fuel a year, so...taking into account the 10% diesel fuel surcharge, you're saving perhaps $750 a year on fuel.
and b) you'll get better resale value and perhaps recoup, in that way, maybe $2000 of the $5000 premium you paid.
Still, none of this is compelling, is it?
The difference in MSRP between a Passat diesel and gas is $6000.
How does that make any sense?" :confuse:
The above really aren't fair comparisons. Why? Because the way VW packages their diesel offerings it to equip them with many stardard features which are either options or not even available on the lesser gasoline models. That and in some parts of the country, dealers mark up the diesels they have on their lot (and unfortunately some sucker is often willing to pay the premium instead of shopping further afield).
The flip side of all of this is that if you look at resale values, the gassers don't fare very well compared to the industry average while the diesel models literally blow the averages away (on the high side). Yes, your initial costs will be higher, but as a general rule, when resale time comes around, the extra initial outlay will be more than recovered.
As I have posted before, I have the 2003 Jetta TDI. 9 my's later, it now seems almost like the holy grail of TDI products.
@ the time the premium was $236 (don't quote me here) as I recollect. I ran a used car sales pricing (on Edmunds) and it was easily worth $5,000 more than the gasser turbo diesel. I wish I could do a 235% yearly rate of return in the stock market !!
For this and many other reasons, I am looking to 500,000 miles as a minimum.
The argument for higher resale value is reasonable, to a point. You're still in the hole $3500, if I'm reading these ads right.
No used car goes UP in value after all. You might have a lower RATE of depreciation with a TDI, but you're starting from a higher point of descending.
naturally, the longer one keeps a car the better off one is economically, since after 500K miles your car is essentially worthless to anyone but you, and is fully depreciated besides. And yet, you get to drive around in it. it's all gravy using your formula.
I'm not getting your numbers, though. On a 2003 Jetta diesel vs. gas 1.8T, with 110,000 miles, clean condition, for private party sales I'm seeing an $1800 benefit for the TDI.
Which is about what I predicted (really I was just guessing back then).
Wow, only $236 premium back in 2003? Times have changed!
9 MY's and @ 175,000 miles, I still get 50 mpg with little to no effort. So if you say +$1800 currently I have no cause to disbelieve what you say.
In 25,000 miles, I will come up on my (@2nd) TB/WP change. That however is the normal major tune up.
Audi 2011 best year EVER:
TDI® mix remains very strong: 55% of total A3 sales YTD and 41% of total Q7 sales YTD were TDI clean diesel models
VW best year since 1972:
Volkswagen's high-mileage, clean diesel TDI models account for 21.6% of sales in 2011
Companies like Honda know that diesels sell well. They could not compete in the EU until they offered diesel cars. Sadly they need some help engineering a diesel that will pass USA emissions standards.
This is interesting in that diesel has always been vilified.
However, of course, if gas prices go way up, this will affect the equation considerably, especially in the larger cars/SUVs.
As for the Prius, that's not really a good example, because the Prius does not sell on economics, it sells on "feel good marketing" and it sells to people who dislike cars in general. Can you imagine VW trying that approach?
"It doesn't drive all that well, and it's kinda clumsy and slow, but the NEW VW TDI diesel is "clean" and "green" and will save the earth!"
Not gonna work for VW or Audi I don't think.
The marketing of diesel passenger cars IS a challenge in the U.S. Each new buyer has to be hand-sold and convinced. It's not like a Prius at all.
The bigger diesel isn't that quick (close to 10 seconds 0-60 per the current issue of CR), so I think US consumers would call the 1.6 just plain slow.
Prius is slow, yeah, I know, but the TDI competes with the Camry Hybrid and the new one was already substantially quicker. Same issue.
The last thing we need is for Americans to find yet another excuse to hate diesels.
Leave the slow pokes in Europe, give us the best ones. And maybe change the gearing on the new TDI so it's not Prius-slow.
That's good but let's put it in perspective - they only sold 6561 A3s. That's 3609 diesels.
Q7 sold 8998, so 3689 diesels.
We're talking about 7k cars, not a whole lot.
We noticed several Toureg TDI (BLUE "I") and walked over to check them out... I nearly fell down when I saw the sticker-price of $60,000. Holy Cr@p - is this for real?.. this is nearly 3X what we paid in 2003 for our Jetta TDI.
I was VERY glad we were only buying a battery for our Jetta TDI. I really hope it goes 500,000 miles (Just like a past appender [ruking] suggested about their 2003 TDI)
Also the BMW X5 diesel would be a formidable competitor to the VW.
However, if you were the oem would you like the precisely imprecise 90-92 to 126 day OVERAGE's or would you like the diesels one has manufactured to be precisely (most to all) sold?
They have too many Focuses in dealer lots.
They have WAY too many Fiestas in dealer lots.
60-65 days is considered ideal. 126 days is a glut of inventory.
What it really means is - here come the rebates.
I think word about the transmission issues got out, Ford better get a handle on those quick. Also, oil is hovering around $100 a barrel, still, so compared to the $145 peaks we say, fuel is still relatively cheap. People are used to it now.
$3.569 for regular gas, still $4.209 for diesel near me.
$60k is spendy. VW needs to get one in at less than $40k to hit real volume, and I think the Tiguan may just be too small.
To be fair, the Touareg is a lot more car than a Jetta or Golf, plus inflation has eroded the dollar, so $60k ain't what it used to be.
If I were a potential Focus and Fiesta buyer, nothing short of 2 cycles warranties of 100,000 miles on the drive drain would even put the potential risk at par, enough for me to buy. Again from the WSJ article there is no clue as to identifying the percentage of overage due to the bad news transmission/s.
This kind of gets back to what I was saying many posts ago about a lot getting lost in the translation when it hits the US market. Ford has been selling diesel Focus'es and Fiesta's in the European market and for a long time. It isn't as if the diesel or gassers for that matter are brand new products that need to be massaged.
I'd have to say that the only points of commonality between a Paris-Dakar Rally anything and the "donor" road car are, Badge, Name and Basic Shape and, possibly, type of fuel. Everything else is very specialised. Compare a Land Rover to a Bowler Wildcat or a Nascar Chevy to a production Impala or even a Ferrari F1 to a 430, (admittedly the Ferrari FXX is very close to being F1 in a body but you cannot actually own one, only kind of lease it...............if they like you.
Well, it's supply and demand. Could also be supply is just too high, perhaps due to overly optimistic forecasts.
A co-worker got an early Fiesta, sure enough had to replace the whole trans. I drove it and liked it. Ford took care of her - she has a 7/100 B2B warranty now and is happy.
Where's a diesel B-segment car?
Some people say that Ford could build the Fiesta diesel in Mexico, to get the price down, but that's about a 350 million dollar investment---not chump change.
It's all about dollars and sense. With diesel fuel at $4 bucks a gallon or more, the $25,000 + price tag is simply not justifiable.
The Ford Fiesta diesel would be a *killer* if it were $18,900 + t&l.
And last of all, there is the marketing challenge. Aside from the American prejudice against diesel cars (which seems slowly to be dissipating) there is the perception that diesel is "old tech".
Oh, that's NOT last of all---then there is the issue of diesel fuel purity in the USA.
As you probably know the VW TDI Sportwagen IS built in Germany and the Jetta TDI Sedan's are built in MX and in other places. Last I have read the TDI engine is STILL designed and built in Germany. The GOLF TDI continues to be built in Germany also. Passat while I think it does fulfill world market orders/demand comes from Track 29, Chattanooga Choo Choo. TN.
You can get the Sport model for around $45k. The Touareg has all the benefits of the best in German engineering and that costs money. I don't think it is meant as a high volume vehicle. They did sell half $billion dollars worth last year. It would be interesting to know how much profit compared to selling Jettas. It looks like you will be able to get basically the same vehicle for about $100k with the Porsche name on it soon. Or you can get the Q7 which I just cannot get past the looks on. The Touareg is just more appealing. And I know the VW dealer.
The Mercedes ML350 Bluetec is not much more expensive when you compare amenities. The X5 35d is not as comfortable as the MB. But plenty fast enough. I am still waiting for a test drive in the Touareg TDI. Every time I stop by the dealer the Touareg TDIs are all sold or not even in stock. So I don't think they are having any trouble selling all they bring over.
The Dakar Touaregs are heavily modified. Don't forget BMW tried their best to beat the Touaregs with modified X5s and failed. However the Touareg that set a new record for the Pan American Highway was stock with the exception of bigger tires and more fuel capacity.
http://www.tdi-panamericana.com/touareg.php
No disrespect intended, but this is a straw (wo)man issue. If I were in a place where one can freely speak, FAKE comes to mind
Biodiesel has lubricity in literal buckets. The US government has not certified regulations for(passenger diesel cars) an engine that can run 100% biodiesel. Now this is disingenuous for there are plenty of equipment/s that are certified to run 100% biodiesel and without required emissions equipment !!! Indeed any TDI can be modified to run 100% biodiesel. For passenger cars, it is listed as a felony to do the conversion. VW as you know was dragged kicking and screaming to run 5% biodiesel, which as you know the US has mandated with various implementation dates. My understanding is up to 20% biodiesel is being considered to be mandated. Needless to say they have mandated emissions devices that not only are NOT durable, but uncorrelated and of course almost prohibitively costly (for the 5% biodiesel).
Now philosophically I am an avid supporter of 100% biodiesel. It makes all the sense in the world and for a couple of lifetimes after I am long gone. However as a practical matter, I will not use it !!
To preserve my chances to run for President, I have used 1 tank full of 5% biodiesel once on the road because I didn't want to go to a station and hopefully buy NON biodiesel. So I bought, as I remember 10 gals. With 5% biodiesel it was probably 1/2 a gal of 100% biodiesel.