What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

Mr_Shiftright

Oh, I was talking about impurities in diesel at the gas station pump in the USA. I always installed water traps on my diesel cars when I had them.

ruking1

Again, or another straw (wo)man. Now this is not to say it is 100% pure, NOTHING ever is, ala, RUG/PUG.. I am also NOT saying that my filter does NOT have dirt particles. However, I have long since stopped bleeding my fuel filter, as nothing but D2 comes out. In addition, I run close to 100,000 miles on a 20,000 miles oem recommendation. I know you know what that means. We also have so called "dirty" D2.

shipo

"Oh, I was talking about impurities in diesel at the gas station pump in the USA. I always installed water traps on my diesel cars when I had them."

The key words in the above statement are "...when I had them." The thing is, now that the U.S. market sells ULSD, it is my understanding that we now mass-market the most pure diesel fuel in the world (and the purest ever sold).

Mr_Shiftright

Well I don't know. My last diesel was about 3 years ago. So maybe it's a lot better now. It would be interesting to hear from a diesel driver who uses a water trap to see if it's actually doing anything.

ruking1

Well, I also have to say that my 2003 used a fair volume of LSD, ala pre Oct 2006 vintage (peace man) Again, same result.

ateixeira

The Ford Fiesta diesel would be a *killer* if it were $18,900 + t&l.

I'd love to see it, but...

Prius C will start at the same price and gets 53mpg on $3.54 gas.

What would the Fiesta get? Remember we gotta lower the #s for US gallons, and then consider the $4.20 cost of diesel.

It would be more fun to drive, but sadly few young folks nowadays would care. :sick:

ateixeira

http://www.green.autoblog.com/2012/01/12/mercedes-benz-e-class-hybrid-detroit-20- 12/

Wonder if, with all that extra weight (batteries + diesel block), it's still a driver?

Mr_Shiftright

'bout 50 MPG in the USA. So probably a bit better than a Prius or a TDI but not much--maybe 10%??

ateixeira

Almost even with the Prius C's 53 mpg, which would be a more direct competitor. Remember, though, gas is cheaper than diesel here.

Go to Brazil and diesel costs HALF!

Or course it's not the low-sulfur variety.

alltorque

It looks like you will be able to get basically the same vehicle for about $100k with the Porsche name on it soon.

We've had the Porsche Cayenne 3.0 V6 TDi over here in Europe for a while now. 236bhp, 406lbft and 8.0 secs 0-60. On the road cost in UK is circa $65k equiv, (i.e. GBP41k). Not too bad for the magic badge.

Similar spec VW Tuareg has same engine/stats and is around GBP8k cheaper.

Of course, we can also have a selection of 5.0 V10 TDi Tuaregs the meanest of which runs 345bhp, 590lbft, 7.3 secs and circa GBP60k. Never seen one on the road though. I wonder why ?

If you want to be truly silly you opt for the Audi Q7 6.0 V12 TDi that runs 493bhp, 738lbft, 5.5 secs and circa GBP88k OTR. Oh, and keep some spare change to have a fuel tanker following you.

My On The Road (OTR), costs shown above are typical prices paid, not full retail, but include all taxes etc.

Mr_Shiftright

But wait..shouldn't we hold out for the V-16 with 800 ft lbs of torque and 0-60 in 3 seconds? :P

I mean...come ON! The V-12 engine was created many years ago not for power but for smoothness--there's nothing quite like them. But today, with all the balancing technology we have, the design has become rather irrelevant. V12 on the trunk lid just doesn't impress anyone anymore.

ateixeira

V12 on the trunk lid

May even attract vandals and thieves.

Mr_Shiftright

Hmmm...I wonder if anyone steals "diesel" insignias, and more to the point, why doesn't spellcheck think "insignias" is a word?

What is the current differential between gas and diesel prices in say...Germany...right now?

ateixeira

I'm sure the taxes are very different, wouldn't surprise me if it's cheaper. Doesn't it require less refinement?

ateixeira

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/01/12/marchionne-better-than-50-chance-next-ram-dak- ota-going-unibo/

Mr_Shiftright

might work if they can keep the cost down...unibody makes more sense in a small truck, which doesn't generally haul or tow that much....a small diesel truck might make sense for a general contractor's 'get around' truck.

I think it depends on when they do the cost analysis---diesels cost more to make, so if you punch out of your price class, that's not good.

stever

German gas prices, as of 12/14/11, were 1.47 Euros. Diesel was €1.36. That's per liter. (drive-alive.co.uk)

So, that's about €5.56 a US gallon for gas. Converting to dollars, that's $7.06 a gallon.

Diesel would be 5.15 euros or $6.53 a US gallon.

ateixeira

It won't happen, but imagine if diesel was 8% cheaper here...

Mr_Shiftright

Hmmm....i remember diesel being a LOT cheaper in France than gasoline.

Well if diesel were .50 cents per gal cheaper here in the US, that would turn things around a bit.

stever

Well, I'm already on shaky ground posting a bunch of math conversions, but on a percentage basis, maybe that number would be closer to .30 cents a gallon if our fuel prices mimicked France's.

The .30 cents a gallon differential that you typically see between RUG and premium fuel is enough to make me not want to buy a car that requires premium, so maybe the effect would be the same.

(cough, cough, :P )

moparbad

You could post thousands of these and would even one of them be a valid scientific reference to clean diesel automobile emissions? More likely 99.99% of them would be irrelevant to clean diesel automobiles as they ALL concern emissions from Semi tractor trucks, school bus, ships, locomotives and construction equipment.

Stop trying to believe the fantasy of "I know diesel emissions of a 2012 Jetta TDI cause cancer and I can prove it from this study from CARB of a 1997 Caterpillar Road Grader emissions that proves a rat breathing 1000x the emissions of this vehicle for 100 years will increase the probability of cancer". UmKay!

Water is harmful to your health if you drown in it and it also necessary to life. You can exaggerate anything to meet your purpose.

bpeebles

You said ==> "Water is harmful to your health if you drown in it and it also necessary to life. You can exaggerate anything to meet your purpose. "

I believe that in the state of California, beach-sand is listed as a hazardous material. I also believe that "CARB" stands for 'California Air Research Board'

All this tells us is that in the state of California, they have gone beyond reason when they start to declare these kinds of things 'hazardous '.

Instead of being neutral in these declarations as the the "Scientific Method" teaches, they start the process with the idea they will end up proving that Diesel emissions are bad.

Sorta like the folks who believe that humans can affect the climate on the earth. Back in the 1970's they were preaching "Global Ice Age".... in the '80s, they claimed "Hole in the Ozone Layer", in the 90's it was "Global Warming"... now it is "Climate Change"... Some even think that Carbon Dioxide is a bad thing... what a bunch of BS. (Plants 'breathe' CO2 for photosynthesis to convert the carbon and expel the Oxygen. )

Us intelligent folks who can think for ourselves know better.

stever

All I know is that my wife is sensitive to some fumes and odors and diesel is one of those. Gasoline doesn't usually trigger her asthma (so long as I don't carry mower gas in the car) but diesel can. It may be the opposite for other people.

Getting an electric mower hasn't encouraged her to take over the grass clipping duties however. :shades:

gagrice

In CA gas stations are required to have the sealed type dispensers nozzles. So you don't inhale the carcinogens from unleaded gas. When I travel like my last little trip to AZ I nearly gag pumping gasoline. Diesel fumes MUST BE SAFE, as CARB has no nozzle requirement for them. You probably live in a good place if no one around you heats with heating oil. Of course wood smoke is not good for asthmatics either.

My neighbor has a GMC diesel PU and an older Beetle TDI. I never notice any smells when he pulls up his long driveway past our house. It is about 100 ft away. No black smoke. I think ULSD has totally changed the picture on diesel vehicles.

ruking1

That is also true in NorCA also. All the place I take on D2 have the so called "old fashion nozzle.

When I do fuel with RUG or PUG it is a distinct pain to deal with the seal type nozzles.

Mr_Shiftright

Let's say you're a salesperson at a store that really wants to start moving diesels.

What points/benefits/attractive characteristics about a diesel car would you emphasize, if a buyer wasn't sure whether to buy gas or diesel?

Let's presume you are an honest salesperson and not prone to wild exaggeration.

THEN, after someone takes this role, maybe other members could critique the validity of the sales pitch, pro and con.

fintail

So I can't sell 1979 300Ds as needing no maintenance, capable of 800K miles before it needs a tuneup, and gets a constant 50mpg?

Mr_Shiftright

Alas, no. Well you could try but we'd be all over you I bet. :shades:

Well if automakers are going to expand their diesel line, they'd better figure out how to sell 'em to Americans.

stever

Well, we don't typically frequent truck stops except on the road, where I'll stop at a Flying J now and then. Don't remember a lot of diesel nozzles around the car islands there. But yeah, I pump 80% of the gas in both cars at least.

Mostly the fumes get her in slow traffic with the windows down or if we're walking and some Power Stroke lumbers by. Seems like 99% of the time it's some big honking pickup tooling around. Neighbor behind us still uses heating oil but haven't noticed fumes from her place. Not that much wood smoke close in to town like we are; most people are on natural gas I think.

Occasionally my neighbor's nephew will plow him out but his diesel fumes aren't bad unless he goes in to visit. What is it about diesel owners that makes them idle so much? Are the engines so temperamental that they're afraid they won't restart?

I bet Dodge/Ford/Chevy pickup owners are the worst advertising for diesels in the US out there.

gagrice

Diesels in cold weather do best idling between 1300 - 1600 RPM. All our PU trucks had auto monitors. Of course in the Arctic you either left your vehicle (gas or diesel ) running or plugged it in from October to April. We did not have time to wait for warmup at -40 when we got a call for service, so we let them run 11 hours a day. Diesel engines last longer under those conditions than gas engines. We also ran number one diesel (Jet "A") year round. It does not get as good a mileage as D2. However it does not gel up like D2 in extreme cold. We never used additives, though I think if they belonged to me I would use it. They were lease vehicles and 3 years they are gone. Someone else's problem.

stever

Why idle at all? It's rarely below 20 degrees here in a normal winter, and we hit 52 just a week or so ago.

20 is chilly, but it's not really "cold". That's still ball cap wearing weather.

scwmcan

Pick-ups are an exception in the gas models too. I know following even a new pick-up has me feeling sick from the fumes, they are just dumping fumes out the tailpipe wether they are diesel or gas powered ( and to me the gas ones are worse, like you said others experience will vary). The trucks are almost as bad as following a classic muscle car in the fumes that you get from them. Of course I can also smell when someone three or four cars ahead of me is smoking so I may just be more sensitive as well.

Mr_Shiftright

Diesel exhaust is still stinky but I never noticed anything offensive out of new-ish gas engined trucks. In fact, it has been shown that the air going INTO the air filter of a modern gas engine is often dirtier than the air going OUT the tailpipe! (depending on where the truck is operating, of course).

ruking1

Actually that is also true of engine oil with a "bypass" (out of line) oil filter. Brand new oil of the bottle has bigger particles in that than after it has been filtered through a bypass ( out of line) oil filter.

More to the point is RUG to PUG is sold with 2 x GREATER ( up to 18 times) greater sulfur ppm (30 ppm standard with up to 90 ppm with off line fee mitigation),aka MORE pollutive: vs D2 with 15 ppm sulfur sold more normally at 5-7 ppm, In addition, since like for like gasser power plants burn 22-58% more than D2, gassers (RUG/PUG) puts out far greater burn waste.

If one doesn't think the price of RUG/PUG is high enough one might want to inquire of the refinery experts what it would cost to refine rug/pug to 15 ppm sulfur with pump delivery more normally 5 to 7 ppm sulfur :shades:

I too like the idea of a campfire, but have LONG since to do them for obvious reasons.

scwmcan

Well as I said I may just be more sensitive to it, but it is definately there, and diesel trucks are still bad as well, newer diesel cars are not as bad as the trucks of either type. I do drive a convertible so I may just get more of the smells and fumes than you too.

Mr_Shiftright

Well I *definitely* turn the AC to "recirc" whenever I'm behind a diesel truck.

As for convertibles, that certainly would make you more susceptible to fumes. Old cars are dreadful stinkpots but I can't say I've noticed much odor from passenger diesels or gas cars. I need to pay more attention to that.

i can sometimes SMELL a parked diesel car as I walk past it...sometimes....I guess it depends how sloppy the owner was on fill-up.

elias

vw TDIs have water traps in the fuel filter canister thing. reportedly not much water is ever trapped by it.

USA gasoline is dirtier than USA diesel fuel, by the way. (sulfur.)

Mr_Shiftright

Ford says to drain the water trap once a month in their diesel trucks.

gagrice

What's not to like in the new Audi Allroad. Unless it fails to come across the pond to our 3rd World market. I don't need 0-62 in 5.6 seconds. I would rather have 38 MPG with the entry level detuned to 330 ft lbs of torque.

The three variants of the 3.0 TDI produce 150 kW (204 hp), 180 kW (245 hp) and 230 kW (313 hp); torque values are 450, 580 and 650 Nm (331.90, 427.79 and 479.42 lb-ft). The entry-level version consumes on average just 6.1 liters of fuel per 100 km (38.56 US mpg), corresponding to 159 g CO2/km (255.89 g/mile). Audi will soon offer a particularly low-emissions clean diesel version of the 180 kW (245 hp) engine. The twin-turbo 3.0 TDI developing 230 kW (313 hp) is a powerful, great sounding engine. It accelerates the A6 allroad quattro from zero to 100 km/h (62.14 mph) in 5.6 seconds; the top speed is an electronically regulated 250 km/h (155.34 mph).

Mr_Shiftright

I like Allroads a lot. Did they ever get rid of that dreadful air suspension, though? Very troublesome.

Audi still needs to ramp up their quality control a bit, I think.

gagrice

I really liked the 2005 Allroad. I think before I spent that kind of money on an Audi, I would get the Touareg TDI fully loaded. Our VW dealer is decent and a lot closer to home. The reality is I would probably be sacrificing at least 5 MPG on the highway. I would be gaining space in the garage as the Touareg is 6 inches shorter with the same cargo space as the A6 wagon (Allroad). Better ground clearance for our 3rd World and declining CA roads.

Those posting mileage for the Touareg TDI claim an average of 30.3 MPG combined. A quite a bit better than the EPA estimate of 22 MPG combined. No big surprise though. And just double my average for the Sequoia. The Touareg 700+ mile range is a big selling point for me.

Local diesel $3.99, RUG $3.73

lemmer

The Allroads were even more troublesome than an average Audi. Oh the humanity!

ateixeira

Maybe not such a good idea...

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/01/18/jaguar-rolls-out-cheaper-diesel-for-xf/

ateixeira

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/01/18/refreshed-2013-mercedes-benz-glk-to-get-diese- l-option/

Should be very efficient, same engine from the ML in a lighter vehicle...

ateixeira

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/01/18/l-l-bean-celebrates-century-of-mucking-about-- with-bootmobile-w/

gagrice

That is the 4 cylinder that I would love to have in the ML. I could get used to the looks of the GLK. I have managed to get past all the ugliness in most vehicles sold today. A GLK 250 Bluetec should easily top 40 MPG. It is rated 36-39 MPG in the heavier ML250 Bluetec.

ateixeira

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/01/25/bmw-m-goes-diesel-introduces-m550d-x5-m50d-x6- -m50d/

How does 545 lb-ft sound?

ruking1

The real sleeper is UP to 36 mpg US. Even the "fuel guzzling option" is 30 mpg. High praise is heaped on main stream American "economy sedans" getting 30 mpg !! ?? :confuse:

qbrozen

Wonder what the mileage will be.

My father runs 750 lb-ft in his Sierra and gets 18mpg. That, of course, weighs much more than the BMW, too. I just don't get it when you max out the engine to the point of killing the mileage. Doesn't that defeat the purpose of diesel?

I suppose 36 (if that's accurate on the US EPA cycle) is nothing to sneeze at ... but what could it accomplish in a more conservative package?

gagrice

I would be happy with half of 750 ft lbs in a midsized SUV. The ML250 Bluetec is rated at 369 ft lbs and gets 36-39 MPG combined. What's not to like about that. Two dealers have told me no plans for US sales of the good Mercedes. Only the fire breathers make it to our shores.