What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

Mr_Shiftright

Yes but yours is an outlier, as discussed before. Most people aren't going to get that MPG. unless they stay in the speed limit.

The diesel engine still has a formidable competitor in the modern gasoline engine, and they aren't going to give the diesels any slack in the near future, either.

ruking1

There can be no doubt that notice was given to the gasser side to improve. When gassers can give the power band and exceed the diesels fuel economies, I will switch. Until that time, I would switch EVERY gasser I have to diesel if I could. Hybrids and EV's (my op/ed) are not yet ready for prime time. But then at the same time, I am in the get rid of cars mindset.

I think the one hidden thing that in effect has to undergo a HUGE revolution is the SLUSH BOX automatic. Given a 10.8 years average age of the passenger vehicle fleet, with 75 to 80% being (slush box) automatic that could easily take 20 years.

lemmer

Yeah, but it is slooooooow. And like Shifty said, your experience is atypical.

Mr_Shiftright

It's not power band that interests most car buyers who are likely to shop for a diesel, it's fuel economy I think. Say "power band" to 100 people entering a car showroom selling TDIs and you'll get about 98 blank stares.

ruking1

Well I also come at it with a 0 to 60 in 4 seconds perspective also. It also throws out 385 to 400 # ft of torque.

ruking1

I would say you got me there. I personally see fuel economy as a byproduct, benefit. I really have grown to favor how adaptive the TDI is to OUR roads. 42-45 mpgin a 2009 and 50 mpg in a 2003, simply gravy.

stever

If manufacturers want to sell more diesels, they need to focus on the mileage. (Inside Line)

gagrice

I agree that the Germans seem hell bent on destroying the fledgling diesel market with engines better suited to a Mack Truck than an SUV. I don't know anyone that cares about 0-60 MPH in their SUV/CUV. They all are looking for better mileage. Add the very real problem of overly optimistic EPA ratings on gas cars and negative ratings on diesels, and you get people buying by what is posted on the window sticker. So I wait and continue to waste more gas than is necessary, mostly due to poor government regulations.

Mr_Shiftright

I couldn't agree more with that. Emphasis mileage. If you *need* to advertise horsepower, say in a huge diesel SUV, well then okay, but in a passenger car, things like torque or 0-60 is the last thing American car buyers want to hear. That's just advertising to cross purposes.

ruking1

I do not disagree. However if the figures say differently, I would agree with the figures, which is the reason for my seemingly contradictory post. If I drove a Prius like I drove the TDI, 38- 40 would be more like it. If I drove the TDI like you have to drive a Prius, more like 55-65 mpg. The only car that comes CLOSE to matching the TDI's 50 mpg are the driven like a granny Prius's. Incidently that Honda Civic Hybrid owner won that small claims court case. The owner seemed to be PO'd because it yielded 42 mpg when 50 mpg was advertised. I get 38-42 with a Civic gasser !! (aka NON hybrid, @ the time $8,000 CHEAPER) So if you look at the PERCENTAGEs of the vehicle fleet that are either Prius's, Civic Hybrids, etc., or TDI's, aka better than 40 mpg, you will indeed find it to be a EXTREME minority. So in that sense, and not unlike our political leaders, consumers do the double speak also. Higher torque and HP TDI oems have picked up on that also. So in light of the double double speak, call me an excited potential buyer if the ubiquitous F 150 gets 30-40 mpg !!! Yippee Yahoo ! :confuse:

stever

Now you're talking. All VW has to do is make them cheaper and TDIs will fly out the door.

"In testifying before Congress last year, Mr Anwyl explained that “consumers are happy to pay less, or save fuel, but not if it means giving up features they deem important.” A market simulation model that Edmunds has developed over the years indicates that fuel efficiency accounts on average for about 6% of the reason why consumers purchase a particular vehicle. Fuel efficiency only becomes important when petrol prices suddenly start climbing, but then declines in significance when pump prices stabilise or start to fall."

Difference engine: Going along for the ride (economist.com)

ruking1

..." indicates that fuel efficiency accounts on average for about 6% of the reason why consumers purchase a particular vehicle."...

See guys, you BOTH made my point, albeit more technically/precisely.

Mr_Shiftright

I see your point, but I'm not sure why you are suggesting 50 mpg is the norm, however. All the published road tests seem to indicate otherwise, so the argument vis a vis gassers doesn't seem to wash in the real world, unless you have some hard data that we haven't seen maybe?

If anything, promising people 50 mpg is going to make them pretty upset when they hit the road and most of them don't achieve it in their TDIs. I don't know anybody who gets that. Of course, I only know 3 people who own one, so...kinda small database.

But Edmunds didn't get that mpg, nor did Motor Trend or Road & Track on longterms.

ruking1

I am NOT suggesting that 50 mpg is the norm. Indeed defacto it is the MINORITY. Again for my .02cents, it SHOULD be CLOSER to the norm. Regulations stifle better mpg vehicles from coming into the US markets, aka high economic barriers. And as posted, not many folks (6% not many) would give it a high buying priority, even IF they were allowed in. BUT in the context of CAFE it also flys in the face of the rules and regulations. So for example the low number of Prius exist to sell massive volumes of Toyota PU trucks and (lesser volume) Landcruisers etc that might get barely 18 mpg on a 110 mile down grade from Tahoe!! FLEET FLEET FLEET mpg.

Mr_Shiftright

The regulations aren't put in place to stifle mpg, however. The regulations are put in place for other reasons. So changing the regulations for better mpg would have to be weighed against the other negative effects of doing so.

ruking1

It allows for say 400 hp and 10-15 mpg? :P

ruking1

After all the multi year multi factor bru ha ha (let me count the WAYS/variables) global warming, pollution, foreign dependence on oil, high fuel prices, low fuel prices , low supply, high supply, over supply, natural gas low supply, natural gas, king queen natural gas total OVERSUPPLY, save the planet, occupy du jour, 1 per centers yada this and that, etc. the small car segment is still a MINORITY @ 25% of the passenger vehicle population. Small cars STILL have small mpg. We have SOOOO much natural gas that 58 cents per gal should be the natural gas (RUG/PUG gal equivalent price, but we still want 5 dollar RUG to PUG !! ???? Yet the natural gas conversion equipment is relatively CHEAP.

I am sure there are multiple lawsuits to further discourage Honda (and other oems from going down the natural gas path) from continuing its 2,000 per year natural gas product !!??

Why pay .0166 mile driven (35 mpg) natural gas when you can pay .114 cents RUG ? 6.88 times more is better right? Needless to say there is way less pollution :P :lemon:

Mr_Shiftright

400 HP and 10-15 mpg are not the result of regulation, they are the result of a lack of regulation.

Historically, regulation has done the automobile a great deal of good.

hoosiergrandad

400 HP and 10-15 mpg describes my new 4 by 4 HD 6000 lb gooseneck puller. Its 1985 counterpart had about half the horsepower and worse mileage. Lately regulators have decreed that diesels shall clean up their act, and their efficiency has suffered for it enough that I decided to go with gas this time, since the truck won't be used as heavily.

Has regulation done a lot of good? Sure, but sometimes hard to see how it gets accomplished. It often looks like a war ....environment vs mileage vs safety. I don't envy those who have to juggle all this stuff and produce something that meets all the conflicting standards of I-don't-know-how-many fiefdoms.

Is it all worth it ? I suppose so, but it ain't cheap or efficient.

hoosiergrandad

A further thought....I know they're just trying to do their jobs,but...

Do you suppose that the principals of the various regulatory agencies get adversarial ?.....or do they get together for drinks and chuckle over the bind they're putting automotive designers and engineers in ? Some of both, maybe?

mikem69

Apart from VW, there aren't any Diesel cars in Canada. If Ford made a Focus Diesel here - like in Europe - I'd certainly look at one seriously.

Mikem69

Mr_Shiftright

I think most regulation strengthens the breed, yes, but you're quite right, often at the expense of the consumer.

I suppose that you could say that when you pay a premium for a high-tech, super-efficient, very safe, good handling, fast VW TDI that gets 40+ mpg, you are paying a "hidden tax", in a way.

But many of us can bear taxes if we see some tangible good come back to us from them.

Were it not for regulations, I think Detroit would have been quite content to give you the same basic car you got in 1980 and sold it to you again in 2005. If you look at a 1925 Buick and 1950 Buick, not much changed but the styling. American cars had flathead engines up into the 1960s, and those were discovered in the Dawn of Time. Passenger car diesels were very coarse, even in the 1980s.

ruking1

Perhaps the most telling is despite the appearance of "consistent" regulations there are very few diesel engines in the passenger vehicle fleet use. Most of what are considered part of the passenger diesel fleet are really light trucks which are really "light"heavy weight trucks, which are not subject to the same standards anyway. The Rug to PUG engines are in this same category are literally HUGE and even more powerful and 10-15 mpg with higher HP is more the norm.

gagrice

Who was still building a flathead in the 1960s. I rebuilt a lot of Ford Flatheads. An easy engine to work on. I had a late 40s Cadillac V8 Flat head and learned to drive on a 1949 Packard straight 8 flathead. The good old days. I thought they all went away by the early 1950s.

printerman1

beamer is well built, but expensive to maintain due to lack of number of dealers here in N.A. Straight six is a good engine. Diesel is a great engine, built rugged. Europe has had diesel's for a long time, due to cost of gas. Not too exciting on pickup, but they last longer than gas.

ruking1

Four points in response. 1. BMW Europe has many more diesel engines that are just as adaptive to our roads 2. It is almost like: dial a target MPG. 3. It is always interesting what incarnation the American versions take/will take. 4. I just read in the local rag that RUG/PUG might push $5.00 this summer.

horsepower4

Every time I go to Europe I ask myself why we can't have some of those quiet, smooth-running, standard shift diesel cars in the USA. They are all over the place there in all shapes, sizes, and brands. Tons of station wagons, which is what I would buy in lieu of a van or SUV. We rented a Ford Mondeo (voted most popular family car multiple years) wagon for a 4000 mile road trip around Europe. It was roomy, comfortable, and got nice gas mileage. Why can't we get them here? I wrote to Ford and asked. I think there is a market but we just seem to be stuck in SUV mode here in this country. I've looked at the VW Jetta TDI wagon on several occasions, but each time I've passed because it's just too small. Give us a decent sized van or wagon with a diesel engine and good fuel economy at a reasonable price and I'll be at the dealer's door tomorrow!

qbrozen

4. I just read in the local rag that RUG/PUG might push $5.00 this summer.

Wow. Do they just recycle the same story every year or what? Must have been a slow news day, as they say.

ruking1

Evidently it is a re occurring theme. They do especially when fuel prices are headed to even more record highs. Three years ago when BHO took the helm, RUG prices were 1.75 to 1.80. Seeking 4 th year re election we are now @ 3.79 or so. It is rather re occurring as he actually promised higher fuel prices, ala Dr. Steven Chu, BHO admin Energy Secretary as gone on record supporting (like Europe's higher fuel prices, $10.00 US fuel ASAP and any WAY possible. This is all the more interesting in that fuel demand is less, Also we have been confirmed as better than the middle east of natural gas. Natural gas is trading at record LOWS and with the acknowledge "supply" fully has the potential of going down even LOWER!!! ??? Fuel prices are already UP 39% average per year for the three years. SLOW? I guess so if you consider increases of 39% more per year slow.............

If $5.00 is only half way to $10.00 I guess one needs to go along with BHO's assessment he needs another 4 year term to complete the JOB rise (onward and upward to $10.00 US gas !!! ????

Mr_Shiftright

Well one reason is that most people born from about 1960 onwards in this country will never buy a full size diesel passenger car, because they remember the GM diesels from the 1980s. Until all those people are dead (including me), I don't think Americans will spend $30K and up for a large diesel American passenger car.

it's not regulations keeping large diesel sedans out of America. It's the "curse" of the Oldsmobile/Cadillac diesels of the 80s.

Yes, yes, it's all better now, those people are simply uniformed, yes yes---but perception is reality and it's not going away anytime soon IMO.

larsb

We fixina fine out how many people want diesels.....THE DIESELS ARE COMING !! THE DIESELS ARE COMING !!!

Auto industry about to go diesel crazy

Expect new diesels from:

Porsche. The Cayenne SUV diesel will get a showing in April.

Volkswagen. A diesel version of the Beetle is to be unveiled at the Chicago Auto Show, opening Friday. It'll be on sale in August, VW says. The Beetle TDI (VW-speak for diesel) joins the brand's diesel Golf, Jetta, Passat and Touareg.

Audi. A diesel version of the A8 flagship sedan is coming, and Audi also has confirmed diesels in the next Q5 crossover and A6 sedan.

Chevrolet. The Cruze compact is to offer a diesel option next year. General Motors CEO Dan Akerson disclosed that tidbit in an interview with Drive On last summer.

Jeep. Grand Cherokee adds a diesel version next year, prompting parent Chrysler Group to add 1,100 jobs at the Jefferson North factory in Detroit to build them.

Cadillac. The ATS, the brand's new, small rival to BMW 3 Series, gets a diesel during the car's first generation, GM President of the Americas Mark Reuss says. ATS, at least the gas version, is coming this summer as a 2013 model. Reuss didn't say just when a diesel would join.

Mazda. A diesel is coming next year as part of its Skyactiv suite of fuel-saving technology.
Mazda is being cagey about what vehicle will offer it.

Ram. A small or midsize pickup reviving the Dakota name is to get a diesel, Ullrich says, but he doesn't know just when.

ruking1

I am sure those very same folks remember regular LEADED gas and premium LEADED gas also.

Mr_Shiftright

But not one large passenger sedan among them---even the Cadillac guy is shifty.

gagrice

The Audi A8 is rather large.

ateixeira

I just hope the Cruze diesel proves reliable. If not that could ruin the diesel in American for yet another generation. :sick:

Mr_Shiftright

Audi can hardly sell a gasser A8 in the US, so I don't see this going anywhere--but yes, it is a full size sedan. I doubt if they even broke 1,000 sales in 2011--probably more like 750 cars total.

gagrice

Actually Audi sold 5700 A8 units last year. Up from 1521 in 2010. Audi is setting records every month. This was their best Jan ever. And it looks like diesel is doing its part for Audi.

Sales mix for Audi TDI clean diesel models finished the month at 67.2% for the A3 TDI, 35.8% for the Q7 TDI.

No doubt the reason they plan to add more with the A8 and Q5 diesels. The Q5 is their second best selling vehicle. If they offer the A4 Allroad TDI sold in Europe I am going to visit them. I will for the Q5 if it is the 4 and not the V6 TDI.

Mr_Shiftright

That's global sales I'd bet.

in the US I doubt it's more than 600-700 A8s total.

Here are numbers for 2009 & 2010---as you can see it's getting worse:

A8 sold in USA, 2009/2010

So if they sell say 1000 A8s in the USA, they'd sell about 100 diesels....maybe.

gagrice

I thought Edmund's had all this sales stuff. You are looking at the old Audi info. They had a 274% increase in A8 sales last year.

http://www.audiusanews.com/pressrelease/2742/1/audi-sets-all-time-u.s-sales-reco- - rd-2011.

orangebloodgmc

I'd buy a diesel in a heartbeat if it was in something utilitarian like a small pickup truck. It's been many yrs since GM tried a few anemic ones in the S-trucks and even longer since the VW truck ones. When I see the rare little Isuzu and beg them to sell, they just laugh and laugh at me.

gagrice

People that have those old mini diesel PU trucks hang onto them or sell at an outrageous price. The sad part is the new Ranger T6 has two diesel options and is not going to be sold in the USA. In fact they are closing down the Ford Ranger plant in MN I believe it is. Ford does not want to jeopardize F150 sales. Which I am Sure the T6 diesel would do. It is a great looking truck as well.

ndmike88

Bought my 09 Jetta TDI new. Great car, handles like it's on a rail. Been trouble free and the MPG is unbelievable. VW knows how to make good vehicles and there sales figures prove it.

Mr_Shiftright

Pretty sure they made a mistake. Their figures would suggest that they sold more A8s in one month than in all of 2010 combined. That would be a 1200% increase in sales. Not likely, eh?

ruking1

link title

While I have never seen the VW official sales figures (2009 Jetta TDI) this article says VW says it is 1/5/2010, 53,496 Jetta TDI units.

Dealers were " really dealing" and of course the IRS tax CREDIT of $1,300 was pure gravy.

Mr_Shiftright

Well that brings up the interesting idea that TDI sales are not market-driven, but artificially enhanced by gov't aid---which, as we know, is not likely to be sustained.

ruking1

If that was the whole schema, then I would agree. However, it was done against/IN the backdrop of cash for clunkers, 250,000 + (NON diesel) , the worst auto (gasser) sales probably on record, etc, etc. In part, it was done to counter those left over diesel attitudes, you like to highlight ( from the 1960's on up.) . So strictly as 20/20 hindsight, it was the best of times, it was the worst of times to buy a diesel. In so far as not likely to be sustained, the Passat is being built domestically (some would call TN a foreign country) ,25% is targeted as being diesel. Jetta's TDI's price has been lowered and the Golf is now seen as the "new" (but old) premium German made TDI.

The lack of a total across the board oem diesel offering really highlights the many barriers to entry into the USA TDI markets, economic probably being a chief one.

fintail

In Europe, the land of diesels, diesel fuel is actually subsidized in many areas, so it is kind of like 6 of 1, half dozen of the other.

ruking1

Indeed and diesel costs more here. As a minimum, the extra diesel taxation needs to be removed as compared to RUG/PUG. In addition, we should also raise diesel ppm sulfur to RUG/PUGs @ 30 to 90 ppm.

OR get down RUG to PUG's ppm to diesel's @ 15 ppm to more like 5-7 ppm at the pumps. Anybody in the business will tell you: that alone will drive up the cost of RUG/PUG app 10-15 cents per gal more. It will also inject billions in excessive retro fitting (higher cost and investment)

fintail

It's really an apples and oranges world when all of those details become apparent. The subsidies at purchase aren't too heavy when the rest is examined.

Mr_Shiftright

that's a little different, between subsidizing the fuel and subsidizing the car itself. On the one hand, I'm dangling a shiny new car in front of you, and on the other, just some numbers at a gas station.