What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

Mr_Shiftright

yes but say on American trucks this "chipping" has caused a lot of damage. Engineers leave horsepower on the table for a reason. These people are very smart and it's not so easy to outfox them. You may win short term and lose long term.

After all, they have to design a vehicle with an artful combination of power AND reliability, and they have to pass emissions testing at the time of manufacture, etc.

I can get 40 ft lbs of extra torque on my gasser MINI for $600, purely electronically--that's not too bad, really. What that will do to longterm reliability, I have no idea.

ruking1

Again in my case really the first modification would be to get a clutch that could handle the increase in power and torque. (V6 Sach's clutch package) to not do that is particularly short sighted, especially in gassers. American vehicles can be at a particular disadvantage for most have automatic transmissions. The "upgrade" is particularly expensive.

qbrozen

Yes I think the really hard thing for non diesel folks to understand is not much needs to be done to cut loose an already powerful diesel.

that's a turbo characteristic, not diesel. So turbo gasser tuners are well aware of the fact.

ruking1

Well no. I can also upgrade my turbo, but then again I will have to go through the same drill. So I might as well do it from the get go. The additional thing as you know is that turbo's in gassers run way hotter than turbos in diesels. This has an effect on reliability.

qbrozen

I'm not completely following you. You can upgrade a gasser's turbo, too.

Some are obviously easier and safter to upgrade than others, but that's true of diesels, too. There are many many reports of folks running obscene upgraded power levels on their turbo gassers for 100k miles and still going strong. I know this to be true of the VW 2.0T runing 100+ extra lb-ft, and it seems to be proving true of the bimmer N54, too. Same is true of the older Volvos.

I actually didn't know about the heat being less in a turbo diesel. Why is that?

Mr_Shiftright

Perhaps in theory but I've never seen any hard data that diesel turbos are any more reliable than gasser turbos; in fact, I've never seen any hard data to suggest that diesel passsenger cars are any more reliable in general than gassers, or any more long-lived.

it may be so but aside from a faith-based approach, my motivation for having a diesel would be fuel economy--anything else I might get from it would be icing on the cake.

ruking1

I am not running a gasser turbo side by side with the diesel turbo, so I do not have anecdotal comparison data. The heat issue (gasser) is one I have read about. But for example I know the 1.8 T gasser eats oil I have read normally 1/2 qts in 5,000 miles) in comparison to the 1.9 TDI (.5 qt in app 30,000 miles). The fuel mileage is much worse than in the 1.9 TDI.

lemmer

With all this inherent power in the diesels, why bother with a turbo?

ruking1

Why not?

Mr_Shiftright

Diesels have a poorer power to weight ratio than gas engines, and the turbo is a great assist for this inherent deficiency. And since the diesel engine is built stronger and heavier, it can take a lot of boost that a gas engine could not (gas engines start to detonate at too high a boost pressure).

So, say in my MINI, a normally aspirated 1.6L diesel engine would make the car a dog, but that same engine heavily boosted would make it a little animal, at least an lower RPMs. Of course, the car would be heavier and may require a stronger transmission and clutch---all of which would make an already expensive little car more expensive.

So you know, no perfect world here.

ateixeira

Dunno about that.

First, you're comparing a forced induction diesel to naturally aspirated gas.

With DI even N/A gas engines are putting out 100hp/liter specific output, even in mainstream applications.

Add turbo and that jumps to 130/140 hp/liter, even in some cases with 87 octane (Hyundai, Ford).

And .... all for a lot lower cost vs. diesel.

lemmer

Great explanation. I knew all that via the '84 Jetta I owned once.

I was hoping my question would cause the diesel fans to think it through and come to the same conclusion you did - "no perfect world."

ruking1

Indeed, that was from the git go.

gagrice

And .... all for a lot lower cost vs. diesel.

I think the DI engines offered by Ford may be on the way out. They have a better idea. The Eco boost is a $1900 option on the F150. The test I read says yes you can get a lot of power from the engine. But not good mileage in the process. Sadly Ford is building some dandy 4 cylinder diesel engines for the Ranger. Sales only to 1st World countries. We get the trash in the USA.

ruking1

LONG in the making?

Auto Industry About to Go Diesel Crazy

ateixeira

Actually the EcoBoost engines have both Direct Injection and turbos. The DI actually gives them good control of fuel delivery to cool the combustion chamber, and allow for 87 octane to be used. Pretty nifty.

IMHO DI should become universal, but I'm sure it's not cheap...

ateixeira

Auto parts maker Bosch said its own survey found 32% of U.S. consumers last year said they're willing to consider a diesel, up from 12% in 2006

Good news, but they're a supplier so I hope that's accurate and not just wishful thinking and a slanted survey.

The article seems very pro-diesel, though. The only really "new" diesel offerings in volume segments are from Mazda and Chevy.

larsb

I posted that on 02/06/12 - see post #4000 on this forum....but thanks for reminding us !!

Mr_Shiftright

This may put a kink in diesel sales in the US:

http://www.insideline.com/toyota/prius-c/2012/2012-toyota-prius-c-pricing-announ- ced.html

stever

As popular as the Prii have been, it sure looks like Toyota is leaving money on the table.

Inside Line got an early drive in the Toyota Aqua last month (that's the Japanese version of the Prius C), and the editors were surprised to find it downright engaging and even fun to drive.

"Here's an eco champ that's unexpectedly taut, sporty and, yes, even fun."

Mr_Shiftright

Toyota obviously wants to dominate the hybrid market and is putting most of their chips on that bet.

I always said that diesels aren't going to compete with hybrids unless they can market them under $20K in the US.

fintail

Looks kind of like a decontented Lexus CT. I have to wonder if these things aren't being sold as a loss leader (at best) - shipping, expensive parts, expensive Japanese labor, and the prices stay low. Subsidize it with Camrolla profits.

ruking1

Both times I have bought diesels (03/09) Toyota Prius'es were in the mix. EACH time Prius was thousands more.

Mr_Shiftright

Not any more.

ruking1

Now those are VERY sour grapes ! :P

DEFACTO, it was (from the cost point of view) ABSOLUTELY no help. But to be honest in 20/20 hindsight, I think that EVEN IF Prius'es were the same prices, I would have STILL gotten both diesels and the Civic (non hybrid gasser). Resale values for all three are FAR better than I ever hope they could have been. There are of course new competitive models that probably blow the doors (gassers and diesels) so things get a little murkier.

ateixeira

It might even make sense, from a CAFE standpoint, to take a small hit on those sales to boost the corporate numbers.

IMHO, the Prius C makes the most sense of any Prius in the lineup. It's the most affordable and the most fuel efficient, i.e. win-win.

Should be light enough to zip around town. I bet it will be a penalty box on the highway but that won't matter, since it targets urban consumers.

Edit: Impeccable timing, posted 4 minutes ago:

http://www.autoblog.com/2012/02/10/2012-toyota-prius-c-first-drive-review/

stever

It might even make sense, from a CAFE standpoint, to take a small hit on those sales to boost the corporate numbers.

Makes a lot of sense to get the fleet mpg numbers down.

Wonder what the (relative) price of them is in Japan?

Mr_Shiftright

Well strictly for driving characteristics one should choose the TDI.

Priuses are marketed brilliantly in the same way old Volvos were--they are for people who hate cars. :P

However, there's a whole new generation of DI petrol turbo engines coming online and they will pose serious competition to the diesel.

Technology never stops.

fintail

I think that's what's happening. I don't see any profit in that rig at that price. It's a good one for creative accounting.

Yeah, it's not a road trip car, but it'll have em lining up anyway. Will probably compete directly with the Corolla too, price is barely more but you get more. I like it more than the normal Prius - not as dorky somehow. Although I hate the color of that tested car, and the dash design would probably end up bugging me.

ateixeira

Not sure, but they're popular (as any new model should be).

Of all 3 Prius models, IMHO this simply makes the most sense, at least economically.

ateixeira

We should keep in mind $19k is base, add freight, too. They're $24k or so loaded up.

I wonder...

If they build lots of loaded ones, it could cannibalize the Prius liftback.

If they build lots of base models, they could be selling them at a loss.

They should try to balance that, sell most of 'em at $20-22k or so.

ruking1

This is just me, but I think of the Honda FIT when I looked at ateixeira's link. I liked the FIT, until I went to the Honda store to see it in person.

ateixeira

Fit is the best selling car in Japan, so that's not a bad thing.

Also, Fit is arguably the strongest contender in the B-segment here in the US, too.

I don't see the insect-like qualities in the C, but that's just me.

ruking1

Indeed ! Also Since I am probably one of few (population) that has lived with TDI's I really would not want much from a DI gasser turbo. 40 to 50 mpg with the ability to post 62 mpg, torque app 250 # ft and sub 3,000 #'s and thousands cheaper. Very low performance loss @ altitudes (7,000 ft) :shades:

ruking1

I am at a disadvantage, I have not seen the Prius C in the real world.

plekto

But the main problem still exists that the only companies that are offering these engines are putting them in premium cars with quite frankly, extreme price tags attached.

What we need are little Diesel cars with a $15-20K price tag. Honda makes a Diesel Civic, as an example, and it is a good seller over there as it is inexpensive, reliable, and well, INEXPENSIVE. 30K+ is simply a no-sale.

Mr_Shiftright

The DI turbo gasser might very achieve those numbers. And turbos take care of altitude issues in either a gas or diesel. As does a Supercharger. I got 20 WHP just by changing a supercharger pulley! (it increases boost 3-5 psi).

On another tack, not related to torque, etc. ===>

Check out these EPA numbers on the Prius C -- 53/46/50.

That's diesel territory pardner. :surprise:

ruking1

Indeed. For me to get a real world feeling, I'd like to see a few posts on wwwfueleconomy.gov. It is good to see that Prius is actually living up in 2012 to the promises of 50 mpg in 2003/2004 when 50 mpg was normal for the 2003 TDI Jetta.

fintail

If they get too ambitious they'll intrude on the CT. They'll have to be base to moderate at best to sell. Not many Corolla buyers choose the available leather and nav either. 21K or so might be a sweetspot, clearly undercut the competition yet remain attractive.

ateixeira

Yeah... just looked at the local dealer.

They have 104 Corollas in stock. 102 of them are street priced at $17,125 or lower. Then they have 2 loaded ones, $18.6k and $19.4k.

So you're right, not too many loaded ones.

I suspect the C will be the same way, but add $3 grand or so across the board.

Still, what's the cheapest diesel you can get? $22k? I bet most of those are $25k.

Should VW consider the Polo TDI here? I bet if the C is a hit, they might.

ruking1

The Corolla is SOOOOOOO profitable for Toyota !!!! Yet I have found that on two separate occasions they simply would not deal on any Corolla model. So if one choses either one it is a win- win for Toyota and a win for the customer.

Mr_Shiftright

$22750 for the Jetta Diesel---but it doesn't have the MPG of the Prius....30 mpg city, 42 mpg hwy.

fintail

They probably cost about $3 to make as well - not exactly bursting with expensive new tech. Maybe the Corolla is being used as a dummy to subsidize new products, as so many buy it on name alone.

ruking1

That would actually be one of my choices again. Probably higher on the list would be a 2 door GOLF GTD (diesel version of GTI).

fintail

And the question will be, is it worth 3K more? I think it could be.

With a new wave of small cars out there, VW needs to get in on it.

ruking1

Gosh yes ( ) How old is the platform !! ???

Mr_Shiftright

VW also needs to get its reliability issues in order--not that the diesels are prime offenders at all, but I mean the reputation of the VW name.

fintail

The current model goes back to 08 I think, but it sure seems similar to the 03 car as well, and I bet it shares some bones.

ateixeira

$1800 per year to gas up a Corolla, vs. $1044 for the Prius C. So that's about $750 a year in fuel savings.

Break-even is less than 3 years, so most people would come out ahead.

Corolla is old tech (4 speed auto) and expenses were written off long ago, agree that now they just build tons and count the money.

ruking1

This might be an arcane subject for most gasser folks, but for diesel folks the turbo portion is front and center, as most to all of the current 5% of the passenger diesel fleet are turbo. This is especially true for those that drive @ altitude.