What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?

fintail

But over the ownership of the car, the monies handed out likely aren't very different.

If diesel fuel was cheaper than gasoline as it is in many of the nations we compete with, I doubt the vehicle subsidies would be needed. We do things so weird here, sometimes.

Mr_Shiftright

Well with fuel subsidy, you are talking major bucks. You'd have to be living under the brutal socialism of starving, desperate countries like Germany or Switzerland---LOL!

Really, all a tax credit on a car does is push you into debt in many cases, and it benefits only the few---for one thing, you have to be making money in order to even need a tax credit.

fintail

I suspect diesels would really catch on if the pump price was even 5% lower. But the money is better used to buy off politicos, I guess.

Tax credits do have an intended recipient who isn't the true beneficiary, for sure.

Mr_Shiftright

Well I remember back when I was living in Paris for a couple months that the price differential between gasoline and "gazole" (no, that's not a French cuss word) was considerable...like 1.5 Euros or something like that. I had rented a Peugeot turbo diesel and it was a great little car...I was livin' large on cheap diesel (well cheap for Paris).

gagrice

I am pretty sure they did not make a mistake. Here is the US sales from June 2011. The A8 was up over 700% from 2010. Every month in 2011 was a new record for Audi USA sales. They have passed Infiniti and will probably eat Acura for lunch this year. And a decent part of it is Diesel sales. January is another record month for Audi. Maybe they will top Lexus next.... :shades:

http://www.audiusanews.com/newsrelease.do;jsessionid=44B5FD5BBADE4AC9B0778047251- 98BE9?&id=2472&allImage=1&teaser=audi-sets-record-best-june-u.s-sales-best&mid=1-

fintail

A8 is brand new and impressive, a league above the old one, I am sure your numbers are right.

I don't know if the boring corporate mucky muck clientele who buys A8/S/7 would deal with diesel though.

Mr_Shiftright

Okay, let's say then for argument's sake that total A8 diesel sales would be about 600 cars---let's say 10% of total A8 2011 sales.

Have you ever seen one? I never have. And I don't think you'll see this car in the future in the USA either. (the diesel I mean). It's tough setting up tools and training for a car that might have 15 or 20 examples in each state.

Don't get me wrong---I think for $80K the A8 gasser is a bargain, compared to the Lexus and the trouble-prone 7 series BMW.

gagrice

I think you are probably correct. Unless they use the same V6 TDI and transmission used in the very popular Q7 TDI and Touareg TDI. The Q7 had sales of 8998 units and 41% were diesel. The A3 was 55% TDI. Will that carry over to a super quiet luxury car. I don't think so. Though the MB E350 Bluetec is very popular. Not quite the same buyers.

Mr_Shiftright

Well using the A6 diesel would help but I wonder if they could get away with that in such an expensive car?

Maybe...maybe...Americans will tolerate diesels in a German car only?

gagrice

I really think the A4 with the same 2.0L TDI used in the A3 would be a better seller. Bring the A4 Allroad TDI and I am happy. Though it sounds like MB may bring the GLK 250 Bluetec which may be the one for me.

fintail

The German thing might be part of it - as the old MB diesels have a generally good rep apart from noise and smoke, and Germany is the diesel pioneer. Although it is amusing that just a few years ago, there was credible rumor of an Accord diesel coming here.

I don't know if the way German brands have been marketed here for the past 25 years would make big luxoboat diesels a success. A6/E/5 size might be all we can handle here.

Mr_Shiftright

I think there is a huge disconnect in the American psyche regarding diesel + luxury.

ruking1

If I was in the market for an American diesel a TDI or twin turbo V-8 350 cu in (5.8 or so L) or so would be the literal monster. 30-39 mpg in a sub 3000# sports car or sedan would not be hard to take either. I would expect/suspect 450 to 650 # ft of torque. Truly without much bru ha ha or even fanfare, this is easily ZR-1 Corvette torque territory. Something in a small block Cummins would be the literal bomb. Tremec 6 speed manual or Alison automatic 5/6 speed transmissions.

ateixeira

'Sup with crude costing $95 and Brent crude costing $115?

Has there ever been such a big discrepancy before?

mjg518

Not sure if someone has said this already, but we do have a full size German luxury car with diesel in the U.S., the Mercedes-Benz S-350 Blue-tec. It would be interesting to see sales numbers for this particular vehicle over the next couple of years.

Perhaps helping its cause is the fact that it is the least expensive S-class you can buy here, both in terms of actual price and lease payment.

And to answer the actual question to the post, I would like more options. Actually my favorite combo, which does not yet exist in the U.S., combines two automotive segments for which Americans tend to shy from, mid-size wagons and diesel.

I would love to see a wagon based on the new VW Passat with TDI. It would be very roomy, have more cargo room than all small and most mid-size crossovers, as well as very nearly match the 40mpg of it's sedan sibling. Combine that with its Germanic (albeit less sporty than before) driving dynamic and a mid-high 20s price tag to start and I think it would be a winner.

Same goes for a Volvo V70 D5, although Volvo hasn't sold diesel here in quite some time, and actually doesn't even sell any true wagons anymore.

I have to give Mercedes credit, they are so close, as they have the only Mid-size true wagon available in the U.S. in the E-350, and they offer plenty of diesels, just not in the same car.

Also, it wouldn't hurt if the price of Diesel in the U.S. was more inline with that of regular gasoline.

fintail

Is that S350 finally hitting the lots yet? I wasn't sure we'd ever see it.

Hopefully it fares better than the S400 which sells at a trickle. Might be a cool buy when it is about 4 years old anyway. Supposed to be AWD too - a diesel AWD luxobarge, now that's an oddity.

gagrice

I get updates from Mercedes all the time and that one slipped by me. It is best in class fuel economy at a good price. And the S350 Bluetec is an All wheel drive. Roomier than the LS460 AWD and gets 7 more miles to the gallon on the highway. Over 100 more ft lbs of torque. There you go luxury and great mileage. I would bet 35 MPG on the highway would be easy to achieve.

fintail

I had a 7 series diesel rental in Germany,similar engine size. Average trip mpg (including 120+mph autobahn use) was something like 32-33mpg, not bad for a boat.

Mr_Shiftright

So, driving a Nimitz class diesel---did it "make sense" to you?

mjg518

Yeah,

I couldn't think of a better way to eat up highway miles.

fintail

Not a car I could afford to buy new, but I am glad I had a diesel and not a gas car. Maybe not as fast off the line, but fast enough once it got rolling, better economy, cheaper fuel, lots of winning going on there. For long distances in an expensive climate, it made a lot of sense.

ruking1

I am not sure what you mean about why a tax credit on a vehicle like the 2009 Jetta TDI pushes you into debt in many cases? The way the IRS regulation was written (to the tax payer anyway) was it benefited app 54,000 folks, who bought VW Jetta TDI's. They could have included any 2009 TDI passenger diesels

gagrice

There have not been any tax incentives on VW TDI since the end of 2010. In fact all diesel tax credits ended in 2010. Hybrids are gone. Only EV and Plug ins.

ruking1

I had loosely followed that the 60,000 VW Jetta TDI threshold was not fully hit till sometime in 2010. Those particular rules and regulations were not particularly easy to follow and were fluid right up till the end. Even any number of calls to the CPA's did not initially prove definitive.

It was also interesting to watch the minor bru ha ha when the Priuses' and other hybrids lost their free "single commute stickers". I had read in passing it was roughly 60,000 stickers.

lemmer

I hate to be the spelling police but - brouhaha.

ruking1

Ha Ha Ha.

gagrice

I hate to be the spelling police but - brouhaha.

It could be the name of a designer beer "Brew Ha Ha"

ruking1

Or recycled bio diesel, "Smells like Fries". I just saw a local cable tv piece saying that used restaurant oil has gone up to 50 cents from 6 cents, more than 8 times. Unfortunately, thieves target it.

gagrice

I noticed where we have breakfast occasionally, they have a 55 gallon barrel with a big lock and chained to the dumpster. Says used cooking oil, property of xxxx. I wonder what it costs per gallon to refine to a good quality biodiesel? I know you can run it in a warm engine right out of the deep fat fryer. I don't think I would with modern injectors. Maybe an old beater MB.

ruking1

Not adjusting for current commodities costs, I have read in passing that the cost ranges from .50 to .75 cents per gal. (small batches and retail chemical costs)

So for comparison sake, a 42 gal (definition of a barrel of oil on the commodities exchange) barrel of restaurant oil would cost 21. for the "recycled raw materials and 21 to 31.50 for processing.

You might know this =, even as most folks don't, but a barrel (42 gals) of recycled oil will actually yield more than 42 gals of 100% bio diesel. Also ppm sulfur is very close to ZERO, but for arguments sake less than 1 ppm sulfur. ZERO would make the math literally absurd.

Again RUG to PUG yields anywhere from 30 ppm sulfur (the standard) to 90 ppm allowable by law, albeit off line FEE mitigated. So RUG to PUG is allowed by law to be a min of 30 TIMES to 90 TIMES more pollutive than 100% bio diesel. So for another example, if you take .5 ppm sulfur that is more like 60 times to 180 times more pollutive.

total = 41 to 52.50/ 2,100 miles (@50 mpg what I have gotten for 176,000 miles) = .0195 to .025 cents per mile driven. So with D2 @ 4.09 per gal current prices are .0818 cents per mile driven or 327% more to 415% more.

Here is one recipe link title

We have not even gotten to the comparative analysis for LBC @ 110 per barrel and the fact it yields 9.83 gals of diesel and 19.5 gals of RUG/PUG.

Mr_Shiftright

Sounds like a huge PITB doesn't it? I stopped at the part where it warns you not to inhale the methanol.... :surprise:

RE: Tax Credit/"DEBT" remark --- oh, what I meant was that in order to get a tax credit, you have to buy the car!

ruking1

Needless to say the crude oil refinery process is WAY more complicated. Since you probably live closer to it, you might want to provide your take on the Benicia, CA production facilities, aka Standard Oil of days of old.

Given your explanation of the context of the tax credit, I am still unclear as to your original meaning. Let me put it in context of my confusion. If you are paying 21,500 for an automobile would you want a rebate of $1,300 on your tax return (CREDIT) or pay $20,200 effectively?

Mr_Shiftright

yes but you are buying a more expensive version of the car (the diesel option), and you are paying more for fuel initially, (it's a long time to payback) so really your choice is not purely rational in *money* terms. It may be rational in other terms, like reliability, driving characteristics, the "long view" of car ownership, etc.

Nobody in America "needs" a new car. We have plenty already. We could put our entire population into automobiles at the exact same time, and nobody would be in any of the back seats.

ruking1

"NEED" was not part of the "rules regulation" for the IRS regulation.

I mean one can buy booze with food stamps. Plenty buy illegal drugs.

Mr_Shiftright

No you can't buy booze with food stamps--LOL!

My point was that the tax credit might urge a person to buy a new car when normally they would not. Kinda like what happened with cash for clunkers. Reports were that a lot of these "clunkers" were pretty decent cars.

ruking1

I am not sure what kind of Naiveté, liberal, right, independent or ....whatever. If I who does not get, nor have ever gotten food stamps knows the drill, do you think those that DO get food stamps don't know the drill??

Well for sure, those are individual choices.

stever

Back to the Jetta TDI, what needs to happen next is to offer the Jetta Hybrid here and see how sales stack up over two or three years. People do vote with their wallet. And this could be a pretty even-Steven poll, vs., say, a TDI and a Prius.

Short Drive: 2013 Volkswagen Jetta Hybrid (Straightline)

gagrice

VW already has a diesel and hybrid model. The Touareg. The Touareg TDI beats the socks off the hybrid and costs about $4000 less. Drivers of the Touareg TDI are claiming 26-32 MPG combined. The Hybrid is rated 21 MPG. Only a totally geeked out eco nut would buy the hybrid over the TDI.

The Hybrid requires Premium Unleaded.

ruking1

On many levels there are not enough comparisons to really start to flesh things out. Sure I understand they want to both sell the new platform and the "GREEN" perception Hybrid mostly and decreased use and reliance on gas engines. However what I truly missed are the anticipated results, aka mpg.

Now a 1.2 and a 1.4 gasoline engine are much smaller than the 2.0 TDI engine. Curiously they left out mpg range figures. I get 42-47 mpg with the fuel hog 2.0 TDI :shades:

But Europe gets the 1.6 TDI (converted to 128 oz gal) it gets a minimum of 62 mpg. (74.3 uk gal)

So really the standard to beat are posted by the 1.6T @ 62 mpg.

ruking1

Yes consuming more is ecologically and economically better than consuming less !! (21 mpg vs 26-32 mpg !!!) I am going into scam a liberal bit ness. :sick:

I have been up to Tahoe (500 miles R/T) any number of times in an Acura MDX, 20/22 mpg UPGRADE. It is a GREAT crossover bigger SUV, for a gasser. We normally fill UP grade, close to Tahoe and down grade away from Tahoe and sometimes in Tahoe if it snows heavily (21 gal tank). A 3 hour trip can easily turn into 10 hours depending on the season and conditions. With the Toureg's mpg (26-32) and tank size (26.4), I know I can literally fuel before I leave home, and return (RTB) if I want to. (676 to 832 miles)

I actually do that in the Jetta TDI when I know there will be no snow on the roads. I guess I need to change my perspective, why fuel once when 2 to 3 times will do ???

lemmer

Consumer Reports got 24 combined in their Touareg TDI.

According to the EPA, the TDI gets 22 combined, the Hybrid gets 21 combined. The real winner is the Lexus RX hybrid at 30 combined.

gagrice

You are comparing apples to oranges. The RXh is not in the same league as the Touareg. Not considered suitable for off road use is what Lexus claims. Will not tow much more than a tent trailer. The Lexus RX is a trophy wife's car nothing more. Oh, and one owner is reporting only 20 MPG with the RXh. Sorry not even a consideration.

stever

VW already has a diesel and hybrid model. The Touareg.

Anyone got sales numbers and projections?

(I'd go look but pinball on the iPad is calling me. :shades: )

Mr_Shiftright

"hybrid" doesn't mean it was built strictly for fuel economy. Some hybrids are extremely powerful and they are built to propel large vehicles quickly, and do so with reasonable fuel efficiency.

I suspect the Touareg Hybrid is way faster than the TDI, as it does 155 more HP and more torque. It's an under 6-second car from 0-60.

The idea of some of these hybrids is "V8 power with a V6 engine" and V6 fuel economy.

It's really a whole other type of buyer than a TDI buyer. More upscale, not a 'greenie" by any means.

gagrice

I have a feeling the Touareg Hybrid is the same platform as the Cayenne Hybrid from Porsche. For the same Demographic you pointed out. Specs are near identical. They are the only hybrids that have a decent tow rating. They will out pull the GM hybrid PU truck.

The Cayenne may tempt me when the bring the TDI model here.

http://www.insideline.com/porsche/cayenne/2010/2010-porsche-cayenne-diesel-30-td- i-first-drive.html

ruking1

The same is true of TDI's and gassers. As VW is offering one has a choice of three, or if you can, ALL three.

lemmer

Round these parts, both are soccer mom cars.

ateixeira

The Hybrid requires Premium Unleaded.

So does the Smart ForTwo, and that's *incredibly* stupid in a vehicle that's supposed to lower fuel costs. So, so dumb!

I'll call it - guaranteed market failure.

gagrice

Premium is the only way some gassers can get enough power to get out of there own way. Not true with diesel.

ruking1

Yes I think the really hard thing for non diesel folks to understand is not much needs to be done to cut loose an already powerful diesel.

In my case 1. bigger injectors 2. chip tuning 3. tuning. These 3 items can't even be seen and you have added a min of 50 to 100 #ft of torque. If I do not get on it I can still get 50 mpg. To do that on a gasser requires WAY more engineering and planning and bucks. Just the change alone will decrease fuel mileage in a gasser.