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What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
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If only we could get it.
Personally, I'd prefer a GLK250 bluetec. And, better yet, a C250 bluetec.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Didn't the ML320 bluetec get in the mid 20s?
EDIT: just looked it up. 18/24. vs the GL's 17/23
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
In any case, I guess we resume our quest to push a brick through the wind more efficiently. Or you could just get a Jetta Wagon TDI and get a combined 34 MPG.
VW's British Web site lists its fuel economy at 46.3 m.p.g. in the city, 68.9 on the highway and 58.9 in combined driving. The same car, with the same engine and transmission, rated 30 m.p.g. city/42 highway and 34 combined in U.S. EPA tests.
Part of it is their gallon is 20% bigger. The rest is completely different testing methods.
In contrast after the first 120,000 miles on the 04 Civic, the fuel mileage has actually fallen off, albeit an almost imperceivable - .5. So the range is pretty much the same @ 38.5 to 41.5 (from a range of 39-42 mpg, the first 120,000 miles)
-Rocky
Golf TDI (MT) - 38 MPG
Prius - 44 MPG
Insight - 38 MPG
Fit (MT) - 33 MPG
Elantra - 29 MPG
Jetta Wagon TDI (MT) - 36 MPG
BMW 335d - 28 MPG
MB E350 Blu-Tec - 26 MPG
MB GL350 Blu-Tec - 19 MPG
BMW X5 35d - 22 MPG
Lexus RX450h - 26 MPG
Anecdotally, my mother has only driven TDIs for the past 10 years or so and averages in the mid-30s.
PS
She does not pay any attention to the mileage. Just drives it and hubby fills the tank when it gets to a quarter.
That's changing, though, at least in terms of straight line acceleration.
This month's CR compares the new Camry hybrid to the Passat TDI, and the hybrid is substantially quicker.
That does put the economical diesel in the bigger car (vs. a Golf) but the Camry is just as roomy, and cleaned its clock in acceleration tests.
TDI won on highway MPG but the hybrid won on overall fuel economy, and remember gas is cheaper.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TDYrTGyRfw&feature=player_embedded
I responded to the stereotype that all hybrids are slow and boring.
But truly 0 to 60 while it sells, is really overblown.
With all the speed cams around this town, and they crazy places they put 'em, I think I need a slower car.
But if the diesels have such obvious problem-solving potential, why wouldn't they end up constituting half of U.S. auto sales?
Pump prices are the most obvious roadblock. In past decades diesel prices have sometimes been lower, sometimes higher, than gasoline prices. But in recent years diesel has consistently been more expensive. Diesel prices around the country averaged $3.85 a gallon in the last week of January, compared with $3.39 for a gallon of gasoline.
One reason is that the federal fuel tax on diesel fuel is now higher in the United States than the tax on gasoline. And to exacerbate the price, in the past few years, U.S. refineries have been eagerly exporting refined diesel fuel to Europe and emerging markets. In Europe, diesel pump prices are lower than gasoline prices.
Another obstacle for diesel powertrains is the price of the engines. Auto companies fold the cost of the engine into the larger package of features, so it is tricky for consumers to isolate the exact engine cost. A diesel-powered VW Passat, for example, has a base price of $26,765, including shipping, compared with $20,765, also including shipping, for a base-model gasoline Passat. But the models have other differences. A Volkswagen spokeswoman says the engine itself runs about $1,500 more than the equivalent gas engine.
The new diesel engines that increasingly populate Europe typically are turbocharged. Direct-injection components and related parts add to the price tag. Diesels also must carry a reserve tank of urea, a chemical compound injected into the exhaust process as an aftertreatment to reduce nitrogen oxide emissions.
But all that still adds up to less of a premium than what consumers pay to own a hybrid vehicle, counters Allen Schaeffer, executive director of the Diesel Technology Forum, a nonprofit that represents diesel industry manufacturers. He estimates that hybrids command a premium of $6,300 on average, compared with $2,700 on average for a diesel vehicle.
That in itself is a cause for dismay among diesel fans, since hybrids nonetheless outsell diesel vehicles by more than 2 to 1.
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20120130/OEM06/301309935/1135-
I am in the camp with those that are frustrated by the fact that whether you want diesel or hybrid (or electric), you can't get those powertrains in the base trims of models that have them. Whether it's the Passat diesel or the Camry, you can't get a stripped Passat S or a Camry LE - instead you get all the equipment of the top trims and a much higher base price for the diesl/hybrid trims. The same is true for other models with alt powertrains.
But also the price of the fuel is always going to be an impediment to diesel taking off. And as that industry globalizes and they send the diesel off to international destinations where they can get top dollar for it, the disparity is only going to get worse.
For now, I just go on buying one-size-smaller cars with basic gasoline engines - I save $10K on purchase price vs hybrid/diesel, and the car averages the same mpg the diesel would (albeit a little less than the hybrid would). Even at $5-7/gallon for gas, $10K buys A LOT of gas.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
So frustrating.
The Jetta starts at $15,515, but the TDI starts at $22,775.
That's more than $7 grand!
Yes, it's nicer, but still not what I'd consider upscale, not the new Jetta.
That is what keeps me from selling my gas guzzling Sequoia. For the difference to gain maybe 50% would probably cost me $15k or more. I can buy a LOT of gas for $15k. I only have 25k on the Sequoia. I can buy about 36k miles worth of gas @ $7 per gallon with the difference. Unless I really get the bug to road travel, it just does not make sense.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Maybe Chrysler will beat them to the punch?
The reason dealers can sell all the TDIs they can get at MSRP is because they get very VERY few of them. As soon as (although I highly doubt this will ever happen) they become as common as Civics and Focuses, you will see widespread discounting to move the metal just like you do with all other models.
As for percentage increases in sales, you know as well as I do that can be very misleading. If they sell 5000 Touaregs one year, they only have to sell 8000 the next year to be able to proclaim a "60% increase in sales", a huge increase on the face of it but a very underwhelming statistic in the context of a segment where the sales leader sells 200K a year....
Honda has been working very energetically on a high-tech new diesel powertrain for some time now, and it will finally be ready for production for Civics the world over later this year.....for everywhere EXCEPT the U.S. It goes to markets all over the world from Europe to China to wherever, but not to North America. The chief of Honda is firmly convinced that diesel is not a worthwhile investment in the U.S. because so few American buyers want anything to do with it.
As for hybrids vs diesels, it may be that there is a different sort of customer for each. Certainly the hybrids have more badging and are more easily associated with "green", so for the folks wanting to show their "green cred" the hybrid is more often the way to go.
But one other thing is immutably true - those city EPA fuel economy figures are far apart between diesels and hybrids. 31 city for the Jetta TDI, vs 51 for the Prius. Most peoples' average fuel economy tends towards the city figure, and even if the TDI drivers can run an average of 40 mpg or more, they are still consuming 25% more fuel than the Prius, fuel which costs 20% more, in a same-priced vehicle. And even if you could convince all of the buying public that the EPA tests are skewed towards the hybrids (which they are, but you will never sell the public on that - they don't care enough about the minute details of it to understand the message), the most you might hope for is almost-parity in fuel economy.....in a vehicle which costs the same and uses a fuel that is 20% more expensive.
Whew, you can see why all the automakers are so firmly convinced that diesel is a non-starter in the U.S. Me, I am rooting for it, because no-one can produce a fun-to-drive hybrid despite all that have tried to do so (excepting the CRZ, which is very fun to drive but not hugely practical with only two seats and besides, what's the point in it being hybrid? It has worse fuel economy than many small-engined gas-only cars of the same size), so the diesels are the only fuel-sippers being sold that are also driver's cars. If they can make a diesel that can surpass the best hybrids in fuel economy by at least 10%, to somewhat compensate for the fact that the fuel is more expensive, then a diesel will be my next car. But I'm not betting on that eventuality, so I'm thinking I may have to hang up my driver's shoes and go for a hybrid or an electric next time I am looking for a car.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
If they can is not the question. There are dozens of diesels in the rest of the World in every class of vehicle that surpass like sized hybrids. They for any number of reasons don't consider the USA market worth the hassles. Not just emissions that hold back cars. It is all the extra crash tests for each model. And not just the German car makers are skeptical of our market. Ford is building arguably the best midsized PU truck in the World right now. The T6 Ranger is a beautiful truck with two diesel options. Ford is shutting down their Ranger factory here and not going to import. Why should they jeopardize their cash cow F class PU sales? A midsized truck with a diesel engine that gets an honest 35 MPG would be a killer. But would Ford make as much money on them as they do the best selling vehicle in America.
On the German side of things. The majors are all offering full sized SUVs with diesel and are doing very well. It does not take 200,000 of them to make a huge profit. I would bet that VW made more profit on the 8000 Touaregs sold than the Japanese made on 80,000 Civollas.
I think the VW Polo Blue Motion is the car for you. It has a 1.2L TDI with 5 speed manual and gets a combined 60 MPG US. Comes in 2 or 4 door models. Looks like a scaled down Golf.
Good point above about the MSRP of the Prius being higher, but they have a Prius C coming for around $19k to start. I'd like to see a diesel in the same price segment.
It would be hard to justify either of those, though, when you can get 30/40mpg and a decent 138hp from a Kia Rio for $13,600. Point being if they stall the introduction of affordable diesels any more, Direct Injection gas engines may make them obsolete before they even arrive.
Remember you get diminishing returns once mileage is that high. The Prius C only saves you $500 a year compared to that Kia. At $19k, the premium would take you 10 years to make up.
A Golf TDI actually costs more to fuel up (though it's bigger and nicer). I doubt a Polo TDI would ever break even given it would also be priced at a large premium compared to the Kia.
It's quite possible they do not *WANT* that market, figuring it would never be profitable anyway.
We all know what happened to both Toyota and GM, et all when they produced for volume and numbers sakes. Many oem's lost -MINUS BILLIONS. During the same periods VW MADE + BILLIONS.
I would venture you could introduce a $20,000 diesel 4D car getting 75 mpg and people still would not buy it in great numbers, given the present pump prices. IMO, this would not change until gas hit about $7 a gallon or so AND tons of $$$ were put into very clever advertising and promotions.
From the limited number of oems that have taken the plunge to bring diesels to the US market, 50% diesel market would be a dream come true. From a reality point of view of starting @ 2% diesel products, completely absurd.
So for example, I think VW total production was something along the lines of 250,000 units. 25% being diesel (60,000 to 62,500). During the economic crash auto sales fell - minus 40-45% (from good years of) 14-16 M to 9.5 M.
The NHSTA has the registered passenger vehicle fleet #'s,. The last time I looked it was something like app 259 M vehicles 2009. I would surmise both 2010 and 2011 are higher numbers. Media play has been given to the average age of the passenger vehicle fleet at a RECORD high of 10.8 years.
Americans have shown that they drive MORE if gas is cheaper or their cars get better MPG.
Gas prices here in the northeast are influenced more from Brent crude. The diesel they refine goes to Europe, the gasoline comes here.
If we have a surge in diesel sales in the US, they would have to adjust the allocations so that we'd have enough.
It's also one of the reason why diesel costs $4.20 here and gas is around $3.60. The supply of diesel is low here. For now, demand is low. Imagine if demand surged suddenly. :sick:
Tale of 3 VW's
29.9 mpg RUG = .1234 cents per mile driven
27.5 mpg PUG = .14145 cents per mile driven
46.4 mpg D2 = .08814 cents per mile driven
Rug is 40% more than D2
PUG is 60.48% more than D2
As you can see, it begs some obvious questions.
Before folks try to burn me at the stake, I am totally ok with other folks paying 40-60% more per mile driven than I. :P
Someone shopping for a fuel miser would not be looking at a 2.5l VW gas engine, instead they would opt for a Direct Injected Sonata or Optima, or a Camry, something like that. Or even a hybrid, given a TDI costs about as much.
46.4 seems *very* optimistic for a diesel, CR manages 38mpg on a good day in the smaller ones.
But what Ateixeira has said is true a (42 gal ) barrel of oil has (for the purposes of discussion) 2 components diesel(9.83 gals=23.4% of a barrel ) and RUG/PUG (19.3 gals=46% of a barrel) (there are many many more)
To cut to the chase since diesel is a much smaller percentage and volume, and the % of passenger diesel vehicles is WAY smaller, albeit 95% to less than 5%. a large minority is EXPORTED. If they did not export diesel, there would be WAY more supply app 21% more. That would of course DROP the price of diesel much lower than RUG to PUG.
The site neglects to say what year Civic this is. (mpgomatic.com)
Sorry I didn't get the NIMBY connection...??? (I know what it means but don't know how it applies to this conversation).
It sets the bar too low. VW can do it, but consumers won't.
MPG sells, it's big now, in consumers' minds and in advertising.
35mpg highway warrants attention, so it's Sonata, Optima, Camry that come first in the consumer's mind.
Like for like, VW is stuck and can't really go mainstream for volume (as mentioned above, they may not want to).
All sorts of publications have lists of the "most fuel efficient". TDI will be on that list along with hybrids and DI base engines.
No 2.5l VW in sight.
Middle Eastern oil is NIMBY say in comparison to Penn oil ?
Yes, but this is exactly what worries me as I contemplate buying a diesel-powered car that I will need to fuel with diesel for the next ten years of unforeseeable changes in oil production and global demand.
If they are already in the business of exporting diesel, don't you suppose they will continue to do so readily to wherever they can get the highest price for it? The consumer has little power to object, because diesel penetration is so low, so there is little in the way of price controls or pressures to keep the price of diesel in the U.S. from skyrocketing when it is more profitable for them to let it do so.
OTOH, if I buy a gasser, I am running with the crowd - whenever prices rise too far for unleaded, the masses stop driving so much and reduce sales enough to hurt profits, which then puts pressure on the oil companies to shift supply to do what they can to keep the price down and thirsty American cars consuming more.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)