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Comments
Perhaps I can help in your decision process:
In my opinion, I would not mortgage the future to get the car now. I have a good job which supports my family and myself (no kids, wife in school). I can afford the S4 with a little to spare and still have money for savings and trips. Remember it is only a car. Get it only if it will NOT be a financial burder on yourself or your family. A car is nothing to be selfish about. It is a very expensive item.
If I could not afford it, I would have gotten the Grand Prix (which I had before the Audi). It has great power, a practical part (4 doors with a good truck), and it is only 3 years into this body style. In the 20-25K price range it has no peer.
One year earlier with my good fortune, I would be driving a M3.
In my opinion, the S4 is the best car, by far, in the 35-40K range of small sport sedans. It gives outstanding performance (maybe not as good as the M3, perhaps a bit better), practicality (4-door which the new M3 will not have for at least 3 years, large truck with fold down rear seats), luxury (far more options and features then the M3, with an easier ride then the M3), and adaptability (with a $600 chip you can get up to 310hp).
I use the M3 since it was the benchmark for the sport sedans in this price range. The new M3 will be over 50k, with a minimal increase in performance from the old M3, out of my price range.
Good luck with whatever car you decide to get!
I've always admired people who sacrafice personal comfort/material wants for family finanial strength.
It's not that the car isn't affordable (virtually everything is affordable in today's world), it's that the S4 would deliver purely personal benefits.
I guess I've heard too many stories about our ancestors treks to school (up hill both ways)and am oriented to financial management for family hapiness versus individual pleasure.
Oh well. I'll keep an envious eye on this board and hope a Santorim Blue (with onyx leather and all the fixings minus nav.)falls into my lap.
Thanks and have fun!
If you are still interested in the S4, check out:
www.audiworld.com
It has a message board for all the Audi autos and you can ask as many question as you need. Also, dealers frequently post cars they have available on the site. You will likely have to pay close to MSRP (I got mine for 1500 off MSRP, but got very lucky).
Willing to travel if it's not more than a few states away.
Looking for:
Silver
Alcantara
Every option but NAV.
Anyone aware of one that exists? I live in Chicago.
Thanks.
Good luck. I have an A4 and love it!
Thanks
Thus an M3 cost something like a $8K premium over a 328i in the US, while it was far more in Europe.
I would guess BMW either has to cut down the engine again on the new M3 or raise the price somewhat when it comes to the US. If I were BMW, I would cut the power. The M3 was an enormous seller in the US, I think largely because people could afford it. If they raise the price, it will be more prestiguous, but they'd actually make less money due to far lower sales.
Also, as mentioned, the torque figures are low on the new M3. Thus you can assume it is an RPM engine (my calculations put the redline at 7K or higher). BMW's mention of a "dynamic redline" that raises as the engine oil warms up also points to this.
If this is the case, then the M3 will be fast like the Honda S2000 is fast. That is, it will be fast when hammered all the way, and must less so under normal driving. Great for racing, less spectacular for the street.
Given that the S4 starts blowing out 258ft-lbs of torque at 1850RPM (and has AWD), it may actually feel faster even if it isn't.
The new BMW is going to be an outstanding auto, with most estimates showing a base price of 45k with options up to about 52k.
It should have 343 hp (slightly less for America), with 269 ft-lbs torque at 4900 rpm (kind of high to get peak torque) with a redline of 8000. It should weigh in at ~3200 lbs.
But back to my intial statement, the new M3 will shave only about .5 sec off the 0-60, due to the minimal increase in torque of 236 to 269.
That is why a Mercedes E55 with 51 less HP and an automatic transmission can keep up with a 400 hp M5 with a manual. The E55 has 391 torque while the M5 has 369. True the Mercedes is lighter (~250 lbs) but it has an automatic vs a manual for the M5.
A S4 with a decent chip will give ~310hp and ~360 ft-lbs of torque at 1850 rpm. It will be interesting to see which car is faster then. Some people have chipped their S4 already and are quoting 0-60 times of 5.0-5.2. For only 40k + $595 for the chip.
I would appreciate any info on prices and options.
Every dealer in Chicago was MSRP or above. On top of that I couldn't find the exact color and interior I wanted. Same thing in MI and IN.
So last week I started looking in states much further away (When spending this much $ I refuse to buy anything but exactly what I want! I went to the Audi website and started blind calling dealers all over the nation. Found exactly the car I wanted...Silver with Onyx/Silver Alcantara and all the goodies except NAV and phone...$1,450 below MSRP. It does have 80 miles on it but they promise me it's perfect.
I'm buying the car site-unseen and having it shipped here. A leap of faith I know. Can't wait till it gets here on Saturday of next week.
Good luck on finding a discount. If you look for dealerships in smaller cities you just might luck out like I did.
See posts #112 re an Alabama dealer who was offering 5% below MSRP and #144 who felt he had gotten a loaded S4 for about $2K below MSRP. I test drove an S4 at Leith in Cary,NC and would have placed a deposit on ordering one, but they wanted MSRP. When I said no sale, they asked if a discount of $500-600 would make a difference. I walked away. They can do better, but it may take the next M3 to soften them up. I saw in Roundel that there may be an AWD variant of the next M3 (but maybe only in Europe?). Good hunting.
Is there anything I should have the deliverer look for when picking it up? I remember my first test drive in the S4. I drove it hard. If the same thing was done for a 80 miles in this one I'm worried. They tell me thats not the case but 80 miles?
BTW, the Nogaro blue S4 looked like it was doing 100mph standing still. What a terrific looking car. I hope my order can be placed soon however, 8 months is not acceptable especially when there is a BMW dealership that has a fully loaded 328i with my name on it less than 200 yards away from Audi's.
The 328 is nice looking but way underpowered compared to the S4 and BMW M3. The M3 has plenty of power and a much stiffer suspension than it's 328 sister, on par with the S4.
To me, the Audi was better than the M3. More power plus Quattro sealed the deal on my end. 0-60 in the S4 is incredible. You wouldn't think an AWD car would be this quick but it really is. The twin turbos accelerate the car faster than a stock Porsche 911. Unbelievable torque band! This car is truly amazing.
However, since you are from SoCal, status might be more important to you. I don't mean that as a slam. 2 people I know from CA, 1 from SoCal and 1 from NoCal, chose the M3 over the S4. One because of the same reason you claim above, availability, and the other simply because "it's an Audi - BMW's are better cars". Then again he only chose the BMW because Mercedes wouldn't finance him on what he really wanted!
For whatever reason here in the US the BMW's are held in higher regard from a status standpoint than Audi's. Certainly not true throughout most of Europe. It's probably due to that whole bogus "sudden acceleration syndrome" even though it was disproved by experts time and time again.
As far as availability they are rare everywhere, but even more rare in CA. If you don't mind travelling a bit and driving the car back (I highly suggest this - it's fun) you should have no problem finding one. Go to audiusa.com and do a search on dealers within 500 or 600 miles from you. I did just that and found exactly the S4 I was looking for.
Good luck on your quest. You can't go wrong with either the S4 or the 328i, but they are apples and oranges.
I'm just really dissapointed in the time it will take to get an S4. My wife likes the 328i but I keep holding my ground.
Thanks for your pointers on tracking one down.
I now this is off topic, but you SHOULD have fun in the buying process. Test driving many cars, looking at all the options, comparing and contrasting benefits and price! Don't let any high-pressure salespeople kill the experience.
I suggest doing what I did when looking to test drive - call the manager and let him know you want to drive a xxxx and not have any sales pressure. 80% of the time they have no problem with that and it's a breeze. Avoid the dealerships that don't like the idea.
Availability in MA seems to be marginally better than other places (except for the two blue colors). This one had just arrived the day before from port.
Despite the salesmen protests "we don't discount S4s" I did manage to get $1500 off MSRP. I searched all of the dealers in the area for color combinations and had 4 dealers all willing to discount more than a $1000. Helps to pay for the insurance.
But as spring arrives, the 'need for speed' will likely dry up the discounting. The factory is apparently flipping over to 2001 production for all new orders, which may have an additional price impact.
Go and get one if you can. See you over on audiworld.com with the other S4 owners.
>Also, I would like to know if anyone has seen
>a Nogaro blue S4 with the blue Alcantara inserts.
As of about 10 days ago there was one in the showroom at International Autos in Milwaukee, WI. As of that time it was unsold.
Garrett
APR
Wett
TAP
AutoThority
Garrett and APR seem to be considered the best on the AudiWorld S4 forum, but they all have had great reviews. There is a Links section also. You can follow the links to their websites.
www.audiworld.com
Chips raise the turbo boost to obtain more power, and they all produce a lot more power than stock.
The real meaningful differences in power will be produced by more boost (GIAC used 1.1 bar versus 1.0 bar with most other aftermarket chips).
Different brands vary in smoothness, when extra boost kicks in, quality of development, reliability, and customer support.
Horsepower gains can be 50 bhp or more and torque can increase by 100 ft lbs or more.
Cons:
If there is an existing problem or "weak link" then the chip can make it worse or bring it to light sooner.
You may find yourself paying for that problem instead of your warranty.
Simply put, these chips can void warranty claims if that's what your dealer or Audi decide to do. You're at the mercy of their customer goodwill.
To avoid detection, some people swap chips back to stock before going to the dealer for service, but I'd rather not do this.
If Audi denies warranty, you can sue and "force" them to "prove" the chip "caused" the problem.
Of course, you will incur time and legal costs.
Audi shows the court all those impressive graphs from the chip maker and makes a simple argument:
"The car was powered beyond normal tolerances."
If your door handle fell off, you probably win. If your transmission failed, you probably lose.
If your a real masochist, here's a helpful link explaining your "rights" and all the things you can try to "protect" them:
http://sema.org/fedleg/warranty/warranty.html
Despite knowing all the above I purchased a chip.
Unfortunately, problems were posted in Audiworld regarding throttle boot failures, exhaust noise, and drivetrain rubbing.
These problems were not limited to just one brand of chip versus another.
I returned the chip without ever installing and was given a prompt refund.
Maybe I'll reconsider after the warranty expires and would probably go with MTM, distributed in the U.S. by Hoppen Motorsports.
Hoppen has extremely strong ties to Audi and MTM is run by a former Audi engine designer.
Some consider MTM to be back door factory stuff.
First, has anyone felt a "dip" in power around 3000 RPM's when accelerating?
Second, at times it seems like the car's turbos do not want to kick in. Sometimes I'll get on it in second with little to no reaction from the engine. Other times it takes off. Anyone experiencing similar difficulties?
I'd appreciate any feedback to determine whether I should bring it in to the shop.
It was a demo with 1,500 miles.
Wednesday I noticed a noise that I thought might be the left front CV joint. The dealer diagnosed it as a bad transmission and plans to replace it.
I am obviously shocked.
Has anyone else had transmission problems or noise?
The same engine is in the A6 2.7T. In Europe, it produces 235HP (30 less then S4), in the US it produces 250HP, the same as the US S4.
I guess AoA just wanted all 2.7Ts to produce the same power in the US. I don't know why.
Here's an excellent writeup from an owner who had a bad transmission replaced.
Click on 01/02/00.
http://www.audizone.com/info/s4logmain.htm
Speaking of transmissions, my Audi dealer agreed to install the UUC short shifter, which shortens the throw by about 20% and improves overall feel.
I'll have this done at my first service a couple weeks from now.
The stock shifter works OK (never missed a gear) but definitely could be improved, especially the shifts from 1-2 and 2-3.
If transmission goes bad, Audi can try to blame the shifter. The Audi service manager reviewed the installation instructions and doesn't think it will cause problems. He won't touch a chip.
The UUC shifter costs $279 plus shipping, but if it works as claimed by many S4 owners, it should be worth it. My last car was an Integra GSR and it shifted head and shoulders better than the S4.
Thanks,
Larry
Any feedback would be MOST appreciated!!
Good luck!
Problem is, it does stain much more easily than leather, almost as easily as cloth. In a dark color, the uneven surface hides stains well, but in a light color, it isn't going to last long.
I personally would stay away from suede seats. But if you really like it, just be willing to pay a little more care to it than normal.
Could you S4 owners recommend a dealer that has been helpful in procuring a S4 quickly? I'm looking to purchase a Silver S4 for my brother.
Please send all information to my email address at Jliu@legato.com
Regards,
Jesse
Good luck, they must be out there somewhere.
your old GSR? You are the right person to ask since you have experienced both. ( I mean the stock GSR before your adventures with JSRC stuff?? ) I am not able to find out a S4 with local Audi dealer. Since I can't afford a
new one I am just hoping to find a good used S4...Used S4's may come to the market
by the time next M3 comes out!!!
The dealer will fix at my 8000 mile service this Friday. I've needed to add about a quart and a half of oil during break-in but none in the last 1000 miles. Will move to synthetic (which you have to supply yourself) and will run Valvoline Synpower 5W40 (the factory recommended weight), obtainable by special ordering from Valvoline's 800 #. You can also run the easier to find 5W30 without problems per the owner's manual.
By contrast, the GSR never burned a drop of oil, even while it had the supercharger. Other than the timing problems related to S/C, the GSR ran perfectly for over 20000 miles.
The S4 is obviously much stronger than the GSR, especially at low rpm's, and there is no torque steer due to the AWD.
On the othe hand, the supercharged GSR would give the stock S4 a serious run for its money and may even be a tad quicker once you get rolling.
On dry, smooth surfaces, the handling is similar, but the S4 is far and away the smoother handler on less than perfect roads, and both cars slow down with little drama.
As mentioned a few posts up, the GSR shifter is much better and lets you snick through the gears with no effort. The S4 shifter is quite clunky, but that UUC short shifter to be installed this Friday should be a big improvement.
Both cars had dedicated snow tires in the winter, but the edge clearly goes to the S4. With snows, it's invincible. The S4's lower ground clearance posed no problems at all in the snow.
The Bose stereo in the S4 sounds much better than the GSR stock unit but it's not nearly as easy to upgrade to aftermarket stuff. The Eclipse system in the GSR sounded much better (it should for the $3000 it cost!) and it would be nice to have this moved to the Audi if it weren't so much hassle.
It's unfair to compare these two cars since one costs so much more, but frankly, if the S/C had worked out on the GSR, that's what I'd still be driving today, even though the S4 beats the GSR hands down on comfort, noise levels, and luxury.
The one thing I miss the most about the GSR is the "VTEC hit" at higher rpms. The S4 makes its power early and runs out of steam at higher rpms.
I'm still toying with the idea of the MTM chip and exhaust, despite the potential problems or warranty headaches. The appeal of 320 bhp and 370 ft lbs of torque is pretty hard to resist! The MTM chip offers a "two stage" feel meaning greater boost as you get into the throttle.
Audi provides their code directly to MTM, which eliminates the guesswork that other chipmakers must do, meaning potentially better reliability. Still, you will take your chances with any chip.
Hopefully, I've answered some of your questions.
comments??
Thx.
Go to http://www.audiworld.com/model/s4.html
Search the S4 category using the word "bubble" and you'll see what I mean.
Many have replaced their RE040s with other brands so you could probably pick up low mileage ones
fairly cheap (e.g. $90 per tire or less).
I've moved to Dunlop Sp9000s and am very pleased with them, but already sold my RE040s.
BTW, the UUC short shifter was installed Friday by my dealer (1.6 hours) and it did improve the precision noticably and makes the car even more fun to drive. It's still not quite as buttery smooth as an Integra GSR but it's pretty close.
a. There has been a lot of talk about something fishy going on between 2nd and 3rd gear. Is this a reoccuring problem with a lot of owners or is it isolated to a select few who happen to have models with bad transmissions?
b. How hard is it to upgrade the Bose system? I have to have a good sounding system and I am worried about aftermarket adaptations.
c. For those of you who have it, how much more useful do you find the short-shift box? Does the dealer install it and how much is it going for?
d. I know it differs from state to state and company to company but how is everybody finding their insurance costs?
e. Any thoughts about the navigation for those of you who opted?
f. Anything else I should know about? Shakes, rattles or rolls? Mechanical or power failures?
Are any of you still looking in?
I plan an S4 purchase in Germany(assuming France is not possible) early in '01.
Would like the n&n of the German dealer who can deliver a US spec car. Also have a few questions on registration, insurance, etc.; been a long time since I have done this.(And Mercedes made it very easy.)
Anyone else with information?
dgunn
Great car. I have an A4, and I am sure with the extra HP, the S4 is amazing.
Sorry, I didn't look at this topic for so long.I was hanging around in the sports car conference. Thank you very much for the prompt reply....As you have mentioned, there is no point in comparing the 'sleeper' S4 and 'screaming' GSR !!!! Two entirely different types of cars...My dilemma is to go in which direction? Go for a used S4 , Look for a new Impreza 2.5 RS, Go for supercharging my 4-dr GSR?
I can't afford a new S4 so the option is to get a used S4. That is why I was asking about reliability of the S4. I haven't driven a S4 yet... but I guess its going to be another kind of rush to hit the peak power at very low rpm's... It would have been a big change for you to change the shift patterns from upper 7K rms to 2/3K rpms!!!! Impreza 2.5 RS seems to be another good choice. A turbo version is due next year for under 30K. From whatever reviews I have read so far it looks like it is going to be a stunner. Now the third choice is to go for JSRC. If you get it done by a good tuner I think it should work fine. Reliability of GSR has been excellent so far and financially also it is the best option out there for me. - 3 K installed.
It is nice to know that you still think about your Vtec days!!!! I still remember your last post in the GSR topic before you moved on to S4. You wrote about going for another drive in the GSR with whatever gas left in the car before giving it back to the dealer.
One of best parting shots I have ever seen !!! LAter...
I like the honda engines, but the only thing honda builds that is on par with most any high powered german engine is the NSX. That is one wonderful automobile. Its the only Japanese stock car that would take me away from going back to a german car.
a. 2nd to 3rd. A few people have this problem. It is a faulty gearbox. If you have the problem, you can get it replaced for free. I think the problem is fixed now on the production line. But since they aren't producing S4's right now, that doesn't help much.
b. Bose system has exact same head unit as other system. It has different amps and speakers. The amps are completely external (internal amp used for front of non-Bose system is retained but unused). So it should be easy to upgrade. Some have done it with success. You probably will want to upgrade it as the A4 system is lacking in bass (the A6 Bose system has a subwoofer, as does the A4 Avant Bose system, and they are much better).
Apparently, the air conditioning on the Audi A4/A6 line under-performs. Can any owners out there confirm/dispute this?
It's winter where I am right now (Toronto) so I can't test it for myself - but summers here can get terribly hot and humid.
You can't imagine how pissed I'd be, if in the middle of July/August, my wife forces me to drive our Camry because the S4's air conditioning isn't up to snuff.
See Carpoint's comments in the Comfort section at:
(A4/S4 Models)
www.carpoint.msn.com/Vip/Heraud/Audi/A4/2000R.asp
(A6 Models)
www.carpoint.msn.com/Vip/Heraud/Audi/A6/2000R.asp
Thanks for any info you can provide.