Toyota Echo

tmetravler

Ok, this is an idea that I used to do to every one of my cars since the early 80's. Back then, stereo custom installs were beginning to catch on. We had to find ways of decreasing noise & buzzes & rattles in the body shell. I remembered one day that a friend was spraying "ruberized undercoating underneath his new car, including the fenderwells. I asked him what the heck was he doing to his new car? He told me that he discovered that his dad had bought a new car & a few days later, had to take it back in to have the car "rustproofed" It included drilling holes in the sills & applying an undercoating to seal it all up & to protect it from the elements. What he told me next was an idea to get my car stereo to sound better. He said that before his dad brought the car back in he noticed the "hollow" sound in the car, like empty spaces that "echoed" (like that huh??) & when they got the car back. It sounded SOLID LIKE A TANK. No noise, quiet. That sent me to explore my own car. One weekend, I decided to basically TEAR my cars interior out. All I really did was to take off all the door cards, seats, carpet, & plastic side panels. I filled the a,b,& c pillars with an expansion foam used for homes, this filled the "hollow" posts of the car with "sound proofing" I went to k-mart & found cans of "rubberized undercoating" for about $4.00 us per can. I bought about 10 cans to be sure. I sprayed all the insides of the door skins, the floor underneath the carpeting, the trunk area, underneath the fenderwells & underneath the car itself.... of course wrapping all wires, mufflers, anything that wasnt the actual "pan" of the car. Just body shell stuff. I waited til it dried (a couple of hours) & then applied another coat inside the car. When it all dried solid. I reassembled the car & WOW! Like being sealed in a soundproof room! Wind noise, booming, "echoes" & anything else just didnt exsist. We ended up using this techinique in car stereo installs. Until Dynamat was

tmetravler

Ok, this is an idea that I used to do to every one of my cars since the early 80's. Back then, stereo custom installs were beginning to catch on. We had to find ways of decreasing noise & buzzes & rattles in the body shell. I remembered one day that a friend was spraying "ruberized undercoating underneath his new car, including the fenderwells. I asked him what the heck was he doing to his new car? He told me that he discovered that his dad had bought a new car & a few days later, had to take it back in to have the car "rustproofed" It included drilling holes in the sills & applying an undercoating to seal it all up & to protect it from the elements. What he told me next was an idea to get my car stereo to sound better. He said that before his dad brought the car back in he noticed the "hollow" sound in the car, like empty spaces that "echoed" (like that huh??) & when they got the car back. It sounded SOLID LIKE A TANK. No noise, quiet. That sent me to explore my own car. One weekend, I decided to basically TEAR my cars interior out. All I really did was to take off all the door cards, seats, carpet, & plastic side panels. I filled the a,b,& c pillars with an expansion foam used for homes, this filled the "hollow" posts of the car with "sound proofing" I went to k-mart & found cans of "rubberized undercoating" for about $4.00 us per can. I bought about 10 cans to be sure. I sprayed all the insides of the door skins, the floor underneath the carpeting, the trunk area, underneath the fenderwells & underneath the car itself.... of course wrapping all wires, mufflers, anything that wasnt the actual "pan" of the car. Just body shell stuff. I waited til it dried (a couple of hours) & then applied another coat inside the car. When it all dried solid. I reassembled the car & WOW! Like being sealed in a soundproof room! Wind noise, booming, "echoes" & anything else just didnt exsist. We ended up using this techinique in car stereo installs. Until Dynamat was

tmetravler

was invented & Rockford Fosgate invented their own "coating". I still use this idea today, it is the cheepest way to get that car sounding like a vault. Also, stop by the car window replacement specialist & buy a box of window strips. They look like spegetti in a 5lb box, made by 3M, they are black & seal the windows against the shell. You can use this between the door skins & metal skin. just apply to metal parts & reassemble. This will give added protection againt rattles & buzzes. Please only attempt this if you have the aptitude, or else you will end up damaging interior parts & you know how expensive that could be! Sorry about the multiple repeats. my computer is crap!

janbee

I was very surprised when I saw that report..dealerships here in Canada do not go through that (at least I dont think they do) Many dealerships advertise their finance rates in their ads in the classifieds...there are actually some dealerships who are advertising 0% financing...I was contemplating over a 2001 and a 2000 echo, the 2001 had a finance rate of 5.7% and the 2000 had a rate of 0.7% beacause they were clearing the 2000's...I am 25 years old and have no credit history so if I was in the states Im sure I would be paying a lot in interest...That 20/20 report was very informative, I didnt realize that was going on, everybody watch yourself!!!

theparallax

You can erase the multiple posts by clicking on the number beside it and then clicking scribble, I think.

toytech

Been reading this forum for awhile and thought I would stop "lurking" and jump. I have had my Echo for 4 months <10,500miles> and enjoy the car very much. As my username implys, I have been a Toyota technician for 25 plus years, so the purchase of this car was an easy one to make. I fix cars all day so I didn't want one I have to fix at night ;-) My Echo is a 4 door , 5 speed. It was a Toyota region show car . It has 16" TRD wheels and Nitto tires, and the windows were tinted, PIAA bulbs installed in the headlamp housings,rear exhaust switched to a sportier style and the lower black cladding was painted to match the upper body color , that in itself changed the look of the car completely!

Not are there very many Echos in my neck of the woods, there are none with the cladding painted body colored. The body shop manager where I work estimated that the painting costs for someone off the street would be about $350.00 to $400.00. Not a bad price to make your car stand out in a quiet sort of way.

Unfortunatly with the onset of winter, the TRD's have to come off and the 14" Michelins have to go on.

Enjoyable to drive, and even more enjoyable to go to a gas station and put $14.00 worth of gas in it and know I'm set for a week of driving while the SUV owner at the next pump is putting in $35 dollars for the same week of driving.

mdrew

I'm in Berkeley CA (near San Fran.) On Carsdirect you plug in your zip code to see what price they've worked out with dealers in the area, where you actually get the car. I took a look at mine, then typed in a KC zipcode to see what yours would be. I got mine through them at a good price back in May; not sure how current prices compare to what you can bargain for at a dealer but it's worth looking at for comparison...

janbee

Would love to see some pics of your silver echo, sounds like a beauty!!!!

jlb43

I just saw an echo for the first time last weekend on my first trip to a dealer and I just fell in love with the car. It seems like this is a car that was designed for people like me who value functionality and economy over prestige. I've been reading all the terrific information on this message board, and it seems like the people who own this car think the same way I do, so I think I'm probably on the right track. I guess there are just a few things I was hoping someone could help me understand better about safety before I go out and buy the car.

The first thing I was concerned about is the weight of the car. Maybe the Edmunds reviewer could have been more diplomatic in his pre-sanitized critique of the car, but I was wondering if the fact that the car is only 2,050 some odd pounds should be a cause for concern. I looked at the specifications of other cars in the same class and I couldn't find another car that is lighter than 2,450 pounds, and most are in the upper 2,000's. Given that the Echo does not seem to be a particularly small car--at least relative to others in its class--why is it that it weighs so little? Is it made with different types of material than the other cars of the same size? OR does something else account for the weight difference? Did Toyota leave something out of the car that weighs a lot? Most importantly, how important is weight in terms of reducing injury is a crash?

I've read on this post that at least in other countries, the Echo performs as well in crash safety tests as the much heavier Camry. How is this possible? And why is it that there are no crash test statistics available in this country for a car that has been on the market for over a year now?

One of my other chief concerns is the fact that stopping the car from 70 mph seems to take about 30 more feet than the other cars in the class. Given the fact that several people on the site mentioned that the car tends to be peppier than it seems, often resulting in a slower human response to suddenly stopped traffic in front of the Echo driver, this longer-than-average distance for coming to a full stop worries me a bit. Can anyone alleviate my concerns about this?

If I bought the car, I would definitely get the side air bags and the antilock brakes, (despite some interesting comments I've read here that antilock brakes are not all they're cracked up to be!) Would putting larger tires on the car increase safety at all, or would the fact that the car is designed for somewhat narrower tires make such a move counterproductive? Any other additional safety measures possible that anyone could suggest would be appreciated.

Conversely, does anyone out there feel that in some ways driving a small car is MORE not less safe on certain types of roads? For instance, I live in New York City and when I drive out of the city there are parkways with pretty narrow lanes. I now rent cars and try to rent smaller ones, but sometimes they give me larger ones because that's all they have on the lot, and on these parkways I always feel nervous in the larger cars because there's not that much space between you and the car on your left and right. It seems to me that in at least a few cases, being in a small car next to a shaky driver who strays from his lane could be better than being in a wider car. Does anyone have similar feelings about this?

Oh yeah, I saw an echo near my home that had a sunroof, and yet I don't think that is available on any of the packages in the US. How could that be?

azecho

Yes, you did that right! Didn't he Kristi4?

azecho

Welcome, (toytech) to the post. Thanks for your input, it's great to know that a Mechanic chose a Toyota Echo for his car! Curious question Bridgestone or Michelin, any reasons why two different basic types?

I nominate (toytech) and our "mad scientist" (gaiffen) to be co-senior tech advisors... (toytech) for having the most Toyota experience and mad scientist for the whimsical and logical theory explanations.

It is too bad they don't offer two types of Echos
Echo & Echo lite! A Heavier Echo for all of us who can't imagine why it is the lightest car on the road.

My own theory of why the Echo is lighter is, Toyota probably looked at what used to be made of metal and tested what could be made plastic and not be a safety issue and reduced the weight to give the car a better gas mileage? How close is my theory to the truth? Are the plastic items cheaper to replace? Is this recycled plastic? We could give Toyota big thumbs for being eco-minded and recycling plastic. If this were true.

In all reality, how heavy were the Toyotas in the 70's, any body know?

echoluvrst

I went to Carsdirect.com and priced an Echo. There must have been a few things I left out on my wishlist because I came up with a CD price of $14,300 while the MSRP was $15,400 and the Dealer's Invoice was $13,600.

If my car is truly that much, how much does everyone think I should pay? I may not be the first Echo on the street in KC, but mine will probably be the most expensive (in terms of MSRP) on the street.

echoluvrst

Although people say I have a vivid imagination, I cannot imagine what an Echo with the cladding painted body color would look like so I would love to see pictures of your car too.

I think the different colors of the body and the cladding make for a visually appealing car so I could not imagine painting the cladding of my Echo when I get it to match the body.

I do not know why but I was just wondering if anyone knew what color is easiest to paint over. Is a white color car the easiest to paint over and make it a different color?

Well, I am down at my mother's ranch and have to go into the grocery store so I better end this and get going.

janbee

Just came back from shopping at Zellers (Canadian chain, its like walmart) with my mom...she wanted those large rubbermaid storage tubs...I said remember mom we drove the little echo here we cant get too much...she didnt care, she wanted 4 106L bins and 4 109L bins plus their lids and she got 2 more small bins....we pushed both carts to the car and then she realized that she didnt get them for the sale price so she ran back in and I stayed to try and get everything to fit..I didnt think it was possible but after folding down the back seats everything fit in perfectly..Some minivan driver parked next to me was looking at me like "yeah right, there is no way she is going to get those in there" but HA! I was so surprised!! I didnt get much in the trunk because the entry is too small but wow the backseat sure fits a lot!!!

cliffy1

My dealer's web site has an invoice and MSRP calculator that works very well. Check out www.alexandriatoyota.com and click on "Build a Toyota". Keep in mind that every region will have some form of a regional advertising fee that is paid by the dealers and is in addition to the posted invoice price.

The problem you will run into is options. Every region orders the cars differently and you may have a hard time getting ABS. While a factory order is possible, it is neither easy, nor quick. Most dealers refuse to order Japanese built cars because it takes 6 months to get and most customers end up getting impatient and buying something else and we are stuck with a car we didn't want.

A little product flexibility is the key to getting your best deal. That and patience.

melodyecho

Most of the other "car" clubs meet at the nearest SONIC drive-in. I may have told you all already but my purchase price for a 2001 4 door auto Echo with option pkgs 1 and 2;+ cold weather pkg + floor mat set + spoiler was $13,800. I had checked with several dealers and ordered in the color I wanted. This was the best price I could get on an ordered color. I might have been able to talk them down a couple hundred more, but was happy with what I got. By the way a spoiler is designed to add downward thrust to the back of a car. It does nothing for front wheel drive cars except change the looks. It does make a nice grip handle for opening and closing the trunk.

toytech

Thanks for the welcome folks. As to the use of plastic is definately weight savings, and repair costs. Although the bumpers may get scratched on the finish, the plastic is alot more forgiving during parking lot encounters. Metal bends as plastic will most likely deform then return to original shape .
As to recycling, this is one area that Toyota is most proud of as to the use of plastic for many of the crash parts. Quite often we are told in school of the great pains Toyota goes to in finding and using plastics that can be recycled.

As to the tires that are installed from the factory, it is mostly the luck of the draw as to which tire will be on any given car on a dealers lot. Toyota like all car makers has contracts for tires from more than one source. This is done to insure a dependable supply at all times no matter what may be happening to the 2 or 3 suppliers involved. Mine came with Michelins supplied others I've seen have had Bridgestone. We have never had a problem with any of them on Toyota products.

As to the person that saw an Echo with a sunroof, it was an aftermarket. There are some very well made ones and there are some not so good. Alot of it depends on the care and skill of the installer.

Please forgive my disorganized reply as I have a LOT to learn about using this BBS. Took me awhile just to find out where I stopped reading the posts from this morning. I have been spoiled by Outlook Express for most of my usenet newsgoups useage.

echoluvrst

I tried out the calculator on your site and I found it much easier to use. This time I left out the alarm system and I came up with a MSRP in the high 14s. I will be getting an alarm system and am wondering if anyone knows if the factory one is a good one or if I can get a better one at a cheaper price.

I almost went ahead and got a quote from your dealership, but they would have thought I was a nut given I live in Missouri.

Carsdirect.com had two spoilers listed while your site had one. Do you know why CD had two spoilers? And what are the differences between them?

Welcome back Cliffy1, but where have you been? We have missed you.

echoluvrst

Given that I want to listen to books on tape after I get my Echo and some books only come on cassette, I am going to get the radio with a cassette player and a CD player. I would like to get a trunk mounted multi-cd player and was wondering if anyone had some suggestions on a good one.

echoluvrst

Most "other" car clubs might meet at the nearest Sonic, but we are unique. We are Echoians(?)! Where should we meet Moses? Anyone named Moses has got to be the leader. : )

revrobdav

Well everyone..I must wish you the best with your Echo's. I have been in the market for an economical car with very good gas mileage (I commute about 800 miles a week) and have been looking around for quite awhile. Saturday I finally did the leg work. I went and checked out the Echo, Saturn, and the Focus. I hate to say it, especially after reading the numerous posts here, but I have marked the Echo off my list. Being in a region where snow is inevitable and living in the boonies..I need a car that will handle snow. I am not convinced that the Echo can. Also, frankly, I was freaked out when I first drove the car. I felt like there was nothing between me and everybody else. The safety factor is a big thing for me.
Even with these two, I might have been able to overlook them for the benefit of Toyota's superior reliability. However, Toyota screwed itself. I went to three different Toyota dealers on the same day. I hadn't planned to, but the first one I went to wouldn't even show me an Echo. They had them on their lot..I had all ready seen it. They told me to test drive the Corolla. Echo and Corolla were the same thing I was told..Corolla was just a bit bigger. That ticked me off so I left. I went to another dealer. As soon as he found I wasn't planning on buying that day, he mysteriously disappears and leaves me in the lurch. I drive to another dealer and I told them what I was interested in. I was basically told that I would have to take whatever was on the lot and to forget trying to find what I wanted. If I am going to shell out 10,000 +, I am going to get what I want.
So there you have it. It is either going to be a Saturn or a Focus (probably Saturn)..They sure know how to treat their customers. One of their salespeople played with my kids (ages 2 and 9 months) while the other showed my wife and I the car and answered our questions. If any of you work for Toyota...the quality of dealers is horrible. I hope all of you have the best of luck with your car.

elomin

I had a six disc Alpine changer in my old car. It was great. Never skipped or gave me any problems until it was stolen.

mong1

echoluvrst, melodyecho, everyone.

I have done the research for you, the 20/20 show I talked about can be found here:
http://www.abcnews.go.com/onair/2020/2020Friday_001027_creditdiscrimination_feature.html

echoluvrst,
See, I told you, Superior Toyota is not good, I was fooled by their over exposed advertisement. I was playing math game with them too when I ask more about document processing fee, destination charge etc... Worse of all, I asked them to give me a quote about how much my car worth for trade in and they can't give me a quote, they said I have to be commited to buy from them (put down deposite) then only they can bid a price on my car.

One thing that make me real mad was last saturday... after I test drive Echo in Molle, I drop by Superior Toyota to get a better quote, using Molle's price to push them... at the end of the discussion, I said I can't make decision on the spot as my brother is going to pay for the car. I told them I will get back to them within 1 week's time... you know what the salesman ask me? He asked me "How old are you?".... I was very insulted... deep down I know he mean "Oh grow up, can't you make your own decition about the car and you have to ask permission from your brother like little baby?".

Anyway, echoluvrst, I'm working as a web developer, the pay is good enough I can pay an Echo in one year, but I just started the job in September, and I need a realiable car, so I asked my brother about it since my 91 Tracker (has damn high millage) seems can't take it anymore. So, he agreed to pay for the car. It is part of the family saving (my father saved for us), I'm going to pay him back anyway, I prefer to spend my hard earn money.

melodyecho,
Did you get an Alloy Wheel? Your price is close to mine, but your's is Auto transmittion and mine is manual, if you don't have the alloy wheel, that mean we're getting the same kind of deal. Oh, did you use the Toyota discount coupon?

As for the KC Echo club... don't put the pressure on me... I mean I'm not the Moses that cross the Red Sea... We can meet anywhere you guys like, one thing though, I'm not familiar with the whole Kansas City, I normally hang around Kansas City Metro area, sometimes Overland Park. Perhaps we can go to Wark Park Mall, a movie night, and may be a dinner at TGI Friday.

I think I'm going to start up a web site, featuring Echo care, photo gallery, shopping experience etc... I'm more into the front end part of the web site... so I'm not able to set up a chat room or forum for the site yet... I will see how my work goes, and if I have any spare time for it...

Oh well, seems like the weekend is over... time to go and rest early. Keep me posted with your Echo shopping would you?

jlb43

i had a similar experience with a dealer who seemed barely interested in doing business with me if i wanted to buy an echo. I had a couple of possible rationales for this behavior: 1) that somehow the dealer makes a better margin on a corolla sale 2) toyota is in no hurry to ship echos to the US since they are almost completely made in Japan and with the high yen content at a time of yen strength, this makes the profit margin for Toyota on the
echo also low compared to their other products. If toyota is not shipping a lot of echos to the US, there is a delay for anyone ordering an echo, and the dealer probably thinks (rightly) that he will lose the sale if the customer has to wait weeks to get his or her car.

danny28

I'm back. Thanks for the invitation to tour KC. I'd really like that when I finally get there.

About why would I want to go to KC for a holiday: Look at a map of north America and find Winnipeg, then go straight South. What do you find. Anyway I hear "they've got some crazy little women there, and I'm gonna get me one..." just kidding, I'm married already. But what direction would you go in from Winterpeg ?

danny28

Sorry I forgot to spellcheck. Let me try
again.Toyota have some kind of a technical brochure
that
tells about all the neat design features of the
Echo. I think it's an internal training manual or
something. My salesman showed me his. It explains
that the Echo uses high strength steel in a number
of areas around the passenger compartment to
improve safety and save weight. Note that there is
more to good gas mileage than an efficient engine.
The low weight, the skinny tires and the "Hybrid
vehicle like styling" all contribute as well.

Toyota does offer wider tires but you have to pay
for the alloy wheel option. I think you get better
stopping distance on dry pavement with the wider
tires but give up a little on gas mileage. I
mentioned dry pavement because narrower tires work
better in some conditions of snow and rain. They
basically dig in deeper which is good in soft or
slushy snow and on water where hydroplaning is a
problem.

I did a lot of soul searching as well about the
weight thing, because physics tells us that it does
make a difference in a crash. Note that the crash
tests are done against fixed barriers so they don't
really tell the whole story. If you ever see a
crash between a big vehicle and a smaller one, the
big one generally wins.

I guess I decided based on the fact that if i was
going to drive a vehicle based on maximum
protection I should proably get one of those big
grain trucks the farmers around here drive. But my
last vehicle was a 4000 lb. F150 4x4 that took $50
to fill and I filled it often. It really bugged me
to take a 4000 lb. vehicle to bring home a 5 lb.
bag of groceries.

So I fially decided that the problem was that we
are all living in some kind of artificial energy
gobbling world here because of our affluence and
90% of the people on this planet think we are
absolutely waco for consuming our non renewable
resources like this. So just because everyone else
on the road is crazy and driving these huge gas
guzzling SUVs and trucks and luxury cars doesn't
mean that I have to protect myself by buying a
grain truck. I just need to keep my eyes open and
drive defensively for about 10 more years until the
oil crisis hits and everyone else gets on board.
The only problem is that we'll all be riding bicycles
then like the other 90% are doing already.

azecho

I applaud you for your write-up... I decided to do one last check for e-mails...so I thought I would see what was posted. The size of the car is not any different than any other... it is just lighter and has potential to slide... But I have been in big cars that slide... I have been in one that slides and then a few changes and then presto no more sliding.. that is why I am doing the figuring what changes to make to prevent it.
Because, if I do then we will have two Echos in the family.

I was driving in my Ford Contour the other day and a Gigantic Hummer(spelling?) It is huge when you look in the rear-view mirror. I thought, If I was in our Echo, I'd really feel tiny.. But then when in comparison those things are big to any car..

Re: Toyota salesmen, in my Toyota shopping days, I have learned, The salesman knows, they have a good product and they know that alot of people are faithful shoppers. But catch one at the end of the month and they are trying to make their sales quotas, they'll hustle butt to get the sale then.... Always, find the top or 2nd salesman, who wants to make their quota... Ps. I have considered
If I have to I would go to another City that could get the order faster... those that are shopping in the areas that depend on the car really being shipped. See what the waiting time is in a coastal area... The Echos here in Phoenix are starting to have Custom designs.

When, we went to look, one dealer had two Echos and another had Ten.... When he took us out for a test drive, he drove the car... IS that idiotic or what? I questioned???? Any ways he had one of those superior attitudes and off we went to another dealership.... at the new dealership,
We told the Salesman, my daughter and I both wanted to test drive the car... he did and this mom had him hanging on to the handle because I wanted to see how it handled... He did everything to make the sale... Even stay way past hours when the finance was putting us through the buy... We had our own financing preapproved. This helped with the buying... Not to mention that I asked about the holdback and the pricing... He thoroughly explained it... It all made sense at the time... I would have to look at the binder to remember all of it.

He admitted his co-sales friends didn't quite have the I got to sale this car.. attitude.. He did... He told me he was trying to hold his number one position... He showed the profit that the Echo would make and the how the Corolla did have a larger margin to make a deal with and how since the Echos were new their margin was very slim. He was going to throw on all kinds of goodies on a Corolla, if we wanted it... He said he had the margin to work it.... I don't mind paying a Salesmans salary when they really give me the service during the buy (they have bills to pay too). Also the managers working with them.... But like any product, bad service and I'll buy it somewhere else or walk right up to someone else and ask them to ring me up... in front of the bad salesperson... and after all that... turns out my daughter worked in that area where we bought the car for a few months and our salesman remembered her and asked her how her car was doing and tell your mom hi!

I think as consumers, unless obtaining the object of our purchase is not a good price or the service goes with it .... wait... In all honesty, a used cheap Toyota, that is sold by another dealership is good, until a good salesman/woman will sale the new one with better service.

Echoluvrst and mong1 with all the stories and $$$ quotes... get their better sales service for the sale...

danny28

Thx. I too went to 5 different dealers before I found a top salesman who understood 2 things. The first was that I was in charge. The second was how to give me the deal I wanted to make a sale.

lynnann1

Sorry, you've decided against buying an Echo. If you are looking at the Focus, I would suggest you check it out thoroughly. Their quality seems to be questionable. It was one of my choices when we went car shopping and I'm glad I went with the Toyota. BTW our Toyota salesman was very accommodating. He even allowed us to drive it to our house to see if we could get some long objects in it since none of the Echo's they had available had the split rear seat. Not to mention that he let us drive it where ever we wanted to go. The Ford salesman and a salesman at another Toyota dealer dictated where we would go.

Another poster here says the Echo does quite well on snow.

BTW it was quite windy here this weekend. Yes I did get blown about some, but 2 hands on the wheel and paying attention worked just fine. My husband said the Caravan also blew around.

danny28

I agree. 2 things that turned me off with the Focus were: 1)The "split" rear seat wouldn't fold down in a split manner. It looked like the person who designed the seat bottom didn't talk to the one who did the seat backs. The salesman said " well Ford are selling so many like this they don't need to fix it". How about that for a retarded explanation!

The other thing was that I thought that the Focus interior looked cheesy. It reminded me of the way radios were deigned back in the 60's. They used lots of chrome plated plastic and fake looking plastic jazz. The Echo interior in contrast was very genuine looking, well finished plastic. Toyota have figured out that you don't have to make plastic parts look like something else. If the style and finish are done right it can look real classy all on it's own.