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be down to Chevy, Caddy, and Saturn and possibly one other. Hope i didn't offend anyone with my Saab comments.
If GM were to get rid of GMC light trucks that would put an awful lot of dealerships out of business since many of them are also Pontiac dealerships.
If Gm wants Chevy to by the torch bearer they are going to have to put some serious efforts into their interior quality and design.
Quoting dindak: "Industry analysts said vehicles such as the Sunfire, Pontiac's version of the compact Chevrolet Cavalier, could be eliminated. Other models that might go: the Buick Century or Regal and Park Avenue, Cadillac Eldorado, Chevrolet Camaro and Prizm, GMC Sonoma and Pontiac Firebird and Bonneville."
If Olds' 5 models are included, the 16 models become 11. The Eldo is a possibility as it's long in the tooth, and the Catera hasn't set the world on fire. The Century/Regal overlap, so they could be consolidated, but Buick has made hay for years by selling a Buick priced in Pontiac territory. The Saturn L-series is nowhere (Did you know Saturn sells fewer cars than Olds?) but they appear untouchable at GM. Kill the Aztek, the Montana, and maybe the Bonne. Maybe kill both the Cavalier and Sunbird, and give that part of the market to Saturn. Chop either Chevy truck or GMC. If they do these things GM might have to try to move Pontiac upmarket a bit to avoid overlap with Chevy and fill some of Olds' niche.
But I really don't care anymore. The killing of Olds has soured me on GM and shown me how much in disarray they really are. If I could give my $2500 in GM card money to charity, I would. I doubt if I'll ever buy a GM car again.
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1) Cadillac: luxury division. Extend a but more 'down' to the buick market with a few lower-end cars that share components/chassis with chevy. target: Domestic luxury buyer
2) Saab: european luxury division, testing radical technologies and designs. Target: european import buyer
3) Chevy: affordable domestic workingman's vehicles, all good bang-for-the-buck be they trucks, sedans, or sportscars. Offer more performace-oriented trim/versions of most of the sedans to satisfy the pontiac buyer, and a more luxury version to satisfy the olds buyer.
4) Saturn. Reliable efficient safe cars. Target: the japanese import buyer.
I think that this way, there would not be so much brand overlap, and more advertising could be given to each model. And maybe try to upgrade quality in the process?
dave
rcoos: I agree, GMC is not needed. Just make all the trucks Chevy's.
isellpotiac: Oldsmobile will not be killed off in 1 year. One or two models may die in a year or two, but I am sure it will take way longer than a year just to settle with dealers. I give Oldsmobile 4-5 years tops though. Last ones will be Bravada and Aurora.
"It doubtless is not a cheap engine; in fact, to watch one built component-by-component, it looks positively lavish yet now comes standard in the modestly priced Intrigue and will be the base engine for the 2001 Aurora starting this spring. Probably nowhere else can you buy so much engine excellence at such reasonable cost."
The vortec 4200 is not an option for front wheel drive cars because it is too long. Supposedly there will be a inline 5 version, but who wants that.
* Current buyers favor OHC engines over OHV engines (Funny thing most of them will never use the cammed engine to its full revving potential
under normal driving conditions). However, OHV engines (Yes archaic and bla,bla,bla) still go around in circles to the more sophisticated and "politically correct" cammed powerplants. OHV are better suited to everyday urban driving conditions were strong neck snapping low end torque takes priority over Rocket Thrust screaming high RPM torque.
* The current 3.5L DOHC V-6 engine is capable of further techical enhancements that will improve the engine's low end torque stats (The 3800 still beats the 3.5L in this area of performance)and even the addition of force induction, etc.
* With the demise of Oldsmobile, the 3.5L V-6 engine is no longer exclusive "Domain" of this division and soon during the 3800 Phase out stage, most GM intermidiates will benefit from the "Shortstar" powerplant. My prediction is that the all new 2003 Pontiac GP and Buick Regal (First two models to be switched over to the Mid-Lux platform) perhaps will offer the 3.5L as standard equipment and possibly a forced induction version on the GTP and GS models.
* The 3.5L is perhaps a great engineering achievment from the General and this engine easily beats the pants off of the current wimpy 3.0L V-6 engines from Honda and Toyota (Include also Ford's lousy Duratec and the so-so 3.2L OHC from Chrysler). Keep in mind, however, that the 3.5L powerplant is more complex in nature and much more expensive to manufacture but if the general wants to recover lost market share they'll have no choice but to "Bite the Bullet" of the extra costs and concentrate further development efforts on the "Northstar" family of cammed engines.
* Perhaps the 3.5L engine will be the new "Bread and butter" powerplant for the General much in the same fashion as the 3800 Series I and II has been so far. The 3800 still offers many advantages including low manufacturing costs, great acceleration from a standstill (Even better on S/C form), extensive aftermarket support, unsurpassed durability, great fuel economy and very low cost maintenance. Even after the 3800 passes to the hall of fame of automotive history, this engine will be kicking around for a long time to come due to the support and great fan following this motor currently enjoys and has developed since decades ago. The 3800 has had some impressive milestones spanning over 4 decades...hopefully the 3.5L will pick up on this legacy as well.
Also with the closure of Oldsmobile I also predict that Chevrolet, Pontiac and Buick (If It is survives) their products will go upscale and will be even tougher contenders against the Japanese "Appliance" looking and feeling sedans giving a true run for the money with superior performance, feature content, safety, quality and reliability. Oldsmobile carved the path for the upcoming complete turn around of GM as a car company and its products. The Olds legacy will live on the other divisions....this is indeed an exciting time for all of us that admire GM's engineering prowess and have longed for the company's strong comeback into the marketplace...just watch and see..
Tander- I predict, as have others here, that the 3.5 liter DOHC V6 will live on in other GM cars. The next generation Cadillac Catera would be the obvious choice as well as the next generation Regal and Grand Prix. Changes in the market as well as increasing emmission regulations will probably spell doom for the 3800. Buyers of imports want a car that idles smoothly and has a smooth sound to it and while the 3800 series II is not bad in these areas, the 3.5 is certainly better.
I have also read that the 3.5l was too expensive for broad use in GMs
products. However, I noted reading an artical in C/D that the 3.5 was
supposed to be INEXPENSIVE because they didn't use all kind of high-tech do-dads like VTEC. However, I think that because it was derived from the Northstar, it was more expensive out of the box. I had read that the new V-6s GM is building are to replace the old pushrod 3.1, 3.4 and 3.8 engines. GM is also set to buy Honda V-6s for future Saturns (Sad when the largest Auto company can't seem to manufacture an engine refined as the competition - Honda makes some of the best engines in the World from lawn mowers to cars - geez I sound like JRIFF) The 3.5l I have only heard to be scheduled for the Sigma based CTS (See Popular Mechanics spy phot pages).
As for Saab, at least it has some identity other than a Chevy, Pontiac or Buick clone. Historically, Saabs have been problematic cars. However, the switch to GM platforms for the current cars has improved things significantly. Automobile and C/D both just had long term tests of 9-5 wagons and loved them. Even Consumer Reports recommends the 9-5.
Speaking of Consumer Reports, the Intrigue was the highest rated W-Body followed by the GP. Of course, JRIFF would point out that the text says that the car "doesn't hold a candle to the competition" in the form of Maxima, Accord (of course), Camry or Passat (the highest rated sedan). The tables at the front of their new car summary also rate the Intrigue as the best domestic sedan, yet it is below the afformentioned competition...
As for the models being discontinued as part of GM's plan to eliminate 20% of its current products, most of them are those that are poor sellers or due to be replaced anyway from what I have read. Such models include all Oldsmobiles, Camaro/Firebird, Sunfire, Metro, Prizm, Lumina (still sold to fleets), Astro/Safari, Eldorado, Park Avenue. I agree that Buick should can the Century and think Pontiac should combine the Bonneville and GP when the new Epsillon platform replacements appear.
What really irks me about GM is 1st that their models overlap and then there is no consistency. For instance, the Saturn LS and Malibu are basically identical in terms of overall dimensions. The Saturn LS is the bare minimum product that GM needs to be selling in order to compete. The Malibu is so outdated its not even funny.
There was an Opinion piece in the Minneapolis Star Tribune today copied from a Washington Post writer. The jist of the column was that he was glad to see Olds go because they no longer made the Delta 88 that they did in the 60-70s. Its this perception of Olds that caused GM to kill it. These people need to realize that Buick is for them and Olds was to be for all of us who grew up with Accords and Camry in the 80s. At some point the brand (and GM overall) needed to evolve with the times, but the market (or GM's failure to position
Olds in it)didn't catch on. Hopefully, GM can save themselves...
The engines that chrysler offers aren't even in the same league as the shortstar.
I personally dislike Honda automatic transmissions. The General holds the candle 100 times over Honda in this regard. Newer Honda automatics have improved on the annoying Jerky/shift hunting patterns, but still they are way behind GM's automatics. However, where Honda spanks the General is in the manual transmission dept...that's another story. Perhaps GM/Honda can trade V-6 engines/Automatic trannies/Manual trannies respectively...
I do think that a five speed auto would help GM vehicles have even a better advantage over the hondas. The acura does have a five speed, though i have heard that they are not as reliable as our cars.
Well, I dunno. All of the preceding discussion centering on this and the future of the 3.5 seems questionable to me. First of all, Olds legacy may well be the failure of GM to convince buyers that they can compete against the Accords and Camrys of the world. Not that the Intrigue isn't a good car because I believe it is, but the marketplce didn't agree. One wonders what GM will interpret from this.
Someone else said the Saturn L-series is what GM needs. I don't think so. I haven't driven it, and have no desire to, because it is about the most bland, dull-looking thing out there. Again, it may be a good car from a technical standpoint, but they can't give them away. What should GM learn from that? Maybe that they need to give people more than an appliance.
I think that GM most of all, but all of the domestic makers to some extent, have made a serious error by trying to force-feed import-style cars into the marketplace. Yes, there is a significant market for them, but there is also a significant market for a more traditional-style domestic car. Someone said Buick is for those folks, but even Buicks are front-drive interpretation of the style and don't satisfy part of the market. Even a stripper Buick is in the price range of a reasonably well-equipped Pontiac or Chevy, and looks stripped, at least in the case of a Century. And for many traditional Olds buyers, the Buick was the old man's car, not Olds, despite what the current spin is saying.
A local Olds salesman was relating a tale of losing sales to longtime buyers who came in looking for an Olds and were unimpressed by the Intrigue or Alero, despite their good qualities, because it wasn't what they wanted. What they wanted was what they always got: a traditional domestic car. You think if GM had kept the rear-drive Cutlass platform from the 80s updated, they would have sold? Damn right -- probably millions. But they dropped it to try and do what GM always did -- dictate to the market what GM thought it should have. A front-drive, chromeless appliance with a gray fuzzy-cloth interior with absolutely no charm or flash. Only this time, the market went elsewhere.
Don't get me wrong -- I like the Intrigue, at least in certain color/trim combos. But I tend to agree witht the guy from the Washington Post -- if Olds was no longer allowed to build the kind of cars that it did best and that it's buyers wanted, maybe it's just as well it's going. They weren't what a lot of us consider Oldsmobiles anyway.
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http://www.usatoday.com/money/consumer/autos/mauto964.htm
GM bought interests in SAAB, Subaru, is trying for daewoo etc. Were there not other options like focusing on just the coasts for eg. One of GM's remaining values was the fact that people who did not want to drive generic cars could get a choice of sheetmetal within a couple of thousand dollars. Also if the decision had already been made to eliminate Olds, atleast they could have used it as a trial balloon brand for hybrid car technology or something.
Much is made of brand confusion, overlap, low volume etc. Yet there are several brands both upscale and downscale that sell fewer than Olds. For the likes of Kia Hyundai and Vw the US may be an overflow market, so they do not figure the marketing costs in quite the same way. Well GM could have made the same determination, that Chevy and Cadillac are the real brands, and the others are packaging excercises, which is what it had come down to anyway. It just doesn't make sense to kill a brand, when the info tech the cost of target maketing is trending downwards. The long term effect of this will be to further cheapen the automobile into a generic product like a washing machine, imagine if 10 years down the road there are only 6 global auto makers all producing auto appliances. Well, may be it will be good for the environment, if people start viewing cars as mere transportation.
I guess a lot of the older generation may still have gone to Olds in the late ninteties and or even this year expecting land yacht boaty chrome bench seat vehicles with big digital speedos or just a speedo and no odometer. Buick is the closest you can get to that now and they are not doing too hot. If this type of car was THAT in demand, the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis would be dominating the market.
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Now look at the Intrigue....light years ahead of the ancient Taurus sedan with everyhing the Taurus will never have.....superb technology, much better quality, style, etc..
What killed the Intrigue:
* High price (Too high and much more than a domestic sedan buyer was willing to pay)
* Quality glitches (This car was rushed to production and some quality issues were left out, critical to the success of this car in the market place and price point class...still this car is better than any Taurus past or present.)
* No marketing campaigns or Efforts
* The name 'Oldsmobile'...sorry but this name still sounds like that..OLD, Outdated, rusty, etc.....should have been called the GM Aurora or something else...doesn't ring prestige or Import status..nothing like that....
"There was an Opinion piece in the Minneapolis Star Tribune today copied from a Washington Post writer. The jist of the column was that he was glad to see Olds go because they no longer made the Delta 88 that they did in the 60-70s. Its this perception of Olds that caused GM to kill it. These people need to realize that Buick is for them and Olds was to be for all of us who grew up with Accords and Camry in the 80s."
...and those Buick buyers are dying off BTW. Caddillac relaized this/still is, and hopes to continue its re-alignment, esp. to RWD to go after the German makes. Success is unknown yet, but Buick better do some long rnge planning lest they end up like Olds.
Also the aurora is overpriced. You are asking somebody to spend $30,000 when they can go buy a Lesabre for $22,000. Which is the same
as the intrigue.
Also you can't get PCS without the spoiler. If you want a GLS in 2002 you get the sun roof whether you want it or not.
On the otherhand, my 2000 Intrigue with 5800 miles on it is still as structurally rigid as the day I bought it. The 3.5 is a great engine (though it does tend to use a little oil, but that seems to be common place). I think what it boils down to is that GM didn't advertise and as someone said above, the sticker prices on Olds were just too high. Of course, you could get great leases or low, low financing, but I'm sure many people just walked off the lot with sticker shock. So what are we left with: Cadillac--out of my price range, Buick--nice cars, but geared towards those who prefer cars that handle like those of yesteryear, Pontiac--the sport division, but whose cars tend to ride way to rough, and of course Chevy--take the Impala, good platform, cheap interior.
Olds was moving in the right direction, good interiors and a firm but not jarring ride, combining sportiness and handling.
Oh well , won't have to worry about buying a new car for five years anyway.
Bryan
The envoy has nickel clad door handles and nickel clad rings around the gauges. One negative is that they said the engines were noisy at high rpms.
As for Olds, has anybody seen AutoWeek's 12/25 issue? Some nice stories about the Olds line and GM's general bungling en route to the death of the division. I go back and forth on GM's decision. On one hand, GM has too many cars in the market place. But why kill the one brand that actually was earning some praise among auto enthusiasts? In the short run, it was the right decision -- Olds' sales were down and falling. But the demographics were working in Olds' favor. They aren't working in Buick's favor.
One has to wonder just what the future holds for GM.
dwg
I could worry about reliability, but I prefer to recognize that cars today are much better than they have been, even if the asians are still a few percentiles ahead in quality. The reliability of the "problematic" early Intrigues has to be better than it was for American sedans of the early 70's to mid 80's.
Heck, even I had a '74 Plymouth once. It leaked water and squeaked. But it did it's job, and in the end, I actually considered it an OK car for the standards of its time. So I'll probably be satisfied with a new Intrigue, even if the lights do flicker a little and I take it in for some warranty work.
I have to say, the rebates and incentives now on leftover 2000 models are really impressive. Most of the 2000's are white or forest green, but if that's OK with you, it really is a good value. Those of you with access to those additional $1500 vouchers really should get off the fence!!
I may be using the coupon we get to buy a new Trailblazer. I don't think I can afford a Bravada at this point. I guess we will have to see how long these coupons are good for.
swagled : Good for you! I think the Intrigue is still a great buy and although re-sale may suffer slightly in a few years, I don't think it will be a big drop.
Exsqueeze me?
Therefore, I think that the Intrigue's price should have been slightly lower than what it was/is advertised for. I understand GM's argument perfectly. A base Intrigue gives you more things standard than a mid-level Camry that cost more. And when looked at that way the Intrigue is the winner hands down. But Olds' dilema is/was getting import buyers to see that which goes back to marketing.
I think lower pricing and marketing (if GM wants to sell these new SUV, they're going to have to advertise all through the model year. Not just during the release) would have improved the sales of all of Olds models.
As for the voucher, I'm holding out.
b4z:: Since I know I can squeeze into a V-8 Aurora I think I'll try to get one. Dealers should be giving them away. There was a dealer near me a couple of years ago that was closing its doors and was going to give me a Bonniville SSEi with all the fixin's for $27,000 and change. Too bad I wasn't looking to buy. I've got a very good relationship with the finance manager of the dealer where I bought my Intrigue from. I'm almost sure he's going to cut his throat to move his inventory. And if he does, I plan on cruising in a 2001 Aurora. I doubt any changes will be made for 2002.
My point about the intrigue's pricing is that I looked at both the accord and intrigue and a fully loaded accord ex was about 25-26K a fully loaded intrigue GLS was about 28,000. Domestics have always had a price advantage over japanese cars. The intrigue would have sold better if it had started at $1000 less. It would have been more attractive to import buiyers and would have stolen buyers from regal, the ford offerings and probably the intrepid.
To those who won't consider GM products again, it has been my personal experience that GM is more liberal replacing parts than just about any other manufacturer.
Yes, there are engineering and manufacturing problems that need to be resolved with these cars.
What's the deal with the defective alternators? Which model years are bad?
I trust my Olds dealer and it sounds like some of you have dealers that want to carry the Olds logo out front, but don't want to actually do customer service. I still have not received my $1500 loyalty reward nor has my car got license plates. I would like more from GM than the $1500.
I think they should let me trade this Intrigue in for the '02, with no hit on trade in, sell the GLS for at a 'loyal' Olds customer discount and apply the $1500. Hard to believe that GM would direct me to their other divisions when the other divisions are not as forward thinking as Olds is/was. They better get a motor head in there that has a good right hand marketing man (or woman)sitting right next to them.