Cars That Could Have Been Great, But Missed

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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,598
    My 1985 Consumer Guide tested an Audi 5000, and in general they liked it. They scored it 76 out of a possible 100 points. 20 different categories, each ranging from 1-5 points. It scored 76 overall, which was at the high end in that book. A Mercedes 300D scored 77, as did a Volvo GL sedan. Highest scorers were a Toyota Camry and Cressida, both at 78.

    FWIW, it would be impossible for a car to score a perfect 100, because the categories are so varying. For instance, for a car to score a 5 in acceleration, it would probably score a 1 or 2 in fuel economy.

    The Audi 5000 got mainly 4's and 5's, got rated 2 for drivability and fuel economy. It was hard to start in cold weather, and got fairly bad fuel economy. It was rated a 3 for heating/ventilation, and 3 for overall value.

    It got high marks for quality, scoring a 5 for body, 5 for interior, and 4 for paint/exterior. Alas, high initial quality doesn't always make for a good, reliable, long-lasting car.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,639
    Audi kept trying to cover their tracks, changing the 100 to the 5000 to the 100 to the A series. Only now do they seem to be on track to not need another name change in a few years...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 56,988
    edited October 2011
    Funny thing is that by 1985, the 300D was a 9 year old design. MB could really get away with a lot then. Volvo was even older, but those existed in their own world.

    I think a lot of old Audi issues are related to dealers, both repair quality and parts stocks.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    ...the Honda Civic clearly stand out as a miss. Unlike the Detroit 3 of the '80s, '90s and '00s, though, Honda recently acknowldged what the critics have said about its bread and butter model, and have announced they will move up its mid-cycle refresh.

    With the soon-to-be-introduced next generation CRV and Accord, we'll see whether the Civic is an aberration, or if Honda is in a funk.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Honda listened to the fan mags too seriously. I expect a turnaround.
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  • oldburbnewcx9oldburbnewcx9 Member Posts: 53
    1. Yes, but I have seen ony one.
    2. Underpowered in the US, Fingerprints on the stainless steel, too expensive for the delivered product.
    3. Gull wing doors, distinctive design, 2 seats only
    4. Move power, needs an exclusivity factor and of course a flus capacitor and fusion drive.
    5. Over 100K which is still exclusive.
    6. On a personal basis. NO internet. At this price level personal contact is the only way.
    7. Unknown.
    8. Power and looks are required for an exotic car.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Recent posts in "A Spotted An..." discussion mentioned the Austin America. This is a car that was very advanced in configuration and design for its day. It was, essentially, a senior Mini. Unfortunately, it was plagued by quality problems, so it never came close to reaching its sales potential in the U.S. market.
  • hotrodguyhotrodguy Member Posts: 2
    I have to concur with you on that one. I have to say I really miss my old civic. Great car that I would like to see Honda bring back to its original glory. I would have to say Honda for me has been in a funk. Not impressed by what there putting out.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    I've read that Honda will introduce a small sedan based on the Fit. That might be a spiritual successor to earlier Civics.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    For those of you who may not remember or know, the Strada was a hatchback that competed with the VW Rabbit, the Mopar Omni/Horizon twins, the Chevette, and the various subcompact Japanese offerings of that body style. The Strada was arguably Fiat's last best hope of competing in the small hatchback segment, but it failed due to - surprise! - quality issues. The styling was also a bit odd, which didn't help, and the 1.5L engine provided rather weak performance, even by the modest standards of the day. What it had going for it was a relatively roomy interior, good fuel economy and a comfortable ride. Those attributes weren't enough to win over American drivers, though, so the Strada made only a brief appearance on our shores, from the late '70s-early '80s.

    Does anyone here remember the Strada?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 56,988
    edited January 2013
    I remember the Strada, although not when new. It was a US market Ritmo. Weird styling (the round lights are offputting to me, somehow), and I have to imagine quality control was laughable. I bet parts supply and service availability were also suspect. They have to be fantastically rare today - I know I have seen somewhere local, I want to say Portland, but maybe it was online.

    I have a 1981 Consumer Guide, where they raved about the Strada. Maybe nice until the end of warranty.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The Ritmo/Strada has some distinctions I'm told.

    First off they made about (roughly) 1.8 million of them, so not too shabby...

    Also it may have been the first, or one of the first cars to be built almost entirely by robots!

    "Ritmo" means "rhythm"......"I got ritmo, I got tow chains, I got hand tools who could ask for anything morrreeeee...."
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited January 2013
    You'd think that Mopar would've gotten the successor to the Neon right, but no. The Caliber got panned in every test I read. The gas mileage was disappointing for its class, even though the automatic was a CVT.

    I rented a Caliber in Idaho and drove it almost 1,000 miles, much of it on mountain roads, and I thought it was okay. I liked the styling, it had good room, and was as comfortable as anything in its class. Performance was competitive, and I didn't discover any notable negatives. Well, okay, the CVT was a little odd, but that didn't make it bad. Would I have bought one? Probably not, because I wouldn't have wanted to take the chance that all those reviews were wrong. The fact that there was no second generation Caliber suggests that mine was a minority experience.

    Has anyone here owned a Caliber or know of someone who has, and, if so, what was the experience?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,598
    The Calilber got dropped, but aren't the Jeep Compass and Patriot on the same platform, and aren't they still around? I think my biggest issue with the Caliber was that it seemed sort of blurred the line between hatchback/wagon and SUV, but it wasn't enough of either to be all that great at anything.

    My only experience with them was driving one at a test drive event at one of the Carlisle Mopar shows a few years back. Didn't really do much for me, but I'm not really the target market of these things.

    I like the Patriot, though. They added just enough length to it to, IMO at least, make it a nice, roomy vehicle given its size. The Compass makes me think too much of a Gremlin though, although the recent facelift at least makes it not as brutal to look at.

    But, as such, I view the Caliber as more of a competitor to something like the PT Cruiser or Chevy HHR, or to a lesser degree the Matrix/Vibe or Focus wagon. And, not really a direct competitor to more mainstream sedan-type compacts like the Corolla, Civic, Neon, etc.

    According to Wikipedia, even vehicles like the Dodge Journey, Avenger, Chrysler 200, and Mistubishi Lancer and Outlander are also related. So apparently, the basic platform is viable, but the Caliber version just ran its course.

    I think when the Journey came out, it stole most of the Caliber's thunder, and probably served better as a crossover SUV than the Caliber did.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 15,950
    Has anyone here owned a Caliber or know of someone who has, and, if so, what was the experience?

    I don't, but I remember seeing a Caliber for the first time at the Cleveland Auto Show some years back. I told a friend that I thought it would be a big hit--utility, price, and looks. I was dead-wrong.

    I saw a new one a couple years back or so at a dealer in Erie, PA, that was a base model with 5-speed. It was only $13K on the windshield. I think one could hardly go wrong with one at that price. That's the type vehicle I look for, for me...cheap, economical, and practical.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited September 2013
    Was the Cadillac Catera mentioned before? See recent comments under "I Spotted A..." discussion.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    What's a Maxima? In the mid-1980s through the mid-1990s the Nissan Maxima gained a reputation as a cool, smart, safe choice for the buyer who was looking for something more upscale than a Camry, Accord or Taurus. It was positioned in a narrow niche between premium mass-market and entry level luxury. Those wanting a entry luxury Nissan could opt for the badge engineered Infiniti I30/I35, the predecessor to the RWD G35/G37.

    I remember renting a 1995 Maxima SE, and was very impressed with its performance, looks and value. The Maxima was on a new platform that year, and had a new 3.0 aluminum V6. My only criticism was that, in what I assumed was a cost cutting move, it had a solid rear axle, whereas the previous generation(s?) featured independent rear suspension. I drove that rental on the interstates and city streets, but didn't test it on twisty roads. Based on the two days I had it I recall that it felt very stable at high speeds on the interstate, but had a stiff ride (bordering on jarring) on rough city streets. Automotive magazine writers noted that the base and GLE models rode more smoothly, but they were somewhat critical of the handling of these trim levels.

    My point, though, is that the Maxima has gone from being a winner to irrelevance since the late 1990s. Did the Altima and the other mass market models crowd the Maxima out? What happened?

    I've read that the next generation Maxima will feature dramatic styling, to differentiate and distance it more from the Altima. It'll be interesting to see whether the Maxima regains relevance, or becomes another automotive casualty.

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 56,988
    I suspect the Infiniti G sedan cannibalized a lot of Maxima sales. Badges are worth a lot these days.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,598
    I thought the current Maxima, when it first came out, seemed a bit off compared to Nissan's other offerings, but in a good way. The styling seemed a bit more exotic, somehow, than your typical Nissan. But then, other Nissans seemed to gravitate more towards that styling. And while I think the Maxima pulls it off better than the likes of the Altima and Sentra, they did start looking more and more alike.

    The Maxima might be getting squeezed out, as Fintail said, by the G sedan. While the Maxima is more premium than the Altima, it's also smaller inside, so that might limit its market on the Nissan sales floor. And then people figure that if they're going to buy a smaller car, they might as well go with a premium badge, and get the G. Plus, isn't the G RWD? That probably gives it more prestige, among premium cars.

    One thing I just noticed...the current Altima and Maxima both have a 109.3" wheelbase. I wonder if that's coincidence, or if the two are based on the same platform?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 56,988
    The current Maxima is also pretty old now, hasn't been updated much, and is a fleet queen - I bet 2/3 of them or more go to rental buyers. Find a used late model Maxima with no sunroof, probably an old rental. I remember looking at one when I rented last year, the ICE was pretty old school. That doesn't help, when you can get an Altima with nicer toys for similar money.

    Maxima might sell now to bargain seekers who want the engine and maybe better looks or image than an Altima. Every now and then I'll see a blowout deal on them. I think I have read it is due for update/replacement very soon, maybe it'll fit in better now that the Infiniti Q50 (G replacement) is a bit more expensive than before.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited November 2014
    andre1969 said:



    "...the current Altima and Maxima both have a 109.3" wheelbase. I wonder if that's coincidence, or if the two are based on the same platform?"

    Yes, the Altima and Maxima share the same platform, just as the Camry and Avalon do, and the Sonata and Azera, plus the Impala and the XTS. Yet, the Altima is a big seller while the Max languishes.



  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,639
    The Altima has moved so far upmarket, with about the same size and performance as the Maxima, there's not much reason to spend more for the Maxima. No more '4-door sports car'.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The Altima sells because it is perceived as a good value.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    That would be a good ad for an Encore or Enclave.

    More Bang for Buick.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,598
    One of my friends got an Altima as a loaner when his 2006 Xterra recently had to go in for some maintenance and repairs. I rode around it it some. Pretty nice car, on the inside. I'm not too crazy about its exterior style, though, but I could get used to it.

    It seemed pretty quick too, for a 4-cyl. I just looked up a Car and Driver test of a 2013...0-60 in 7.6 seconds. It's amazing how far these cars have come, too. My Mom and stepdad had a 1999 Altima, which felt like a crap-box, although to its credit it went about 330,000 miles before they finally got rid of it. So, it was a good car. It just reeked of that "You may hate it now...just wait til you DRIVE it!" aura.

    I really liked the 2002 Altima when it first came out. Enough that I briefly considered trading my 2000 Intrepid in on one...until I saw how far underwater I was with that car. I didn't like the '07-12 style as much though. My Mom has an '08, and it seemed pretty low inside, and a bit cheaper, somehow. I think the current style is a bit roomier, but I just don't care for its style.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 56,988
    I don't know if "Bang" is something the typical driver wants associated with their car :)
    stever said:

    That would be a good ad for an Encore or Enclave.

    More Bang for Buick.

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited November 2014
    I always liked the styling of the '84 Fiero. Too bad its out-of-date, unrefined 4-cylinder engine was out of sync with the car's looks. I guess the whole Fiero episode defines the old GM.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/30/automobiles/fixes-came-too-late.html?hpw&rref=automobiles&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    " but disappointment set in quickly as the Fiero developed a reputation for a stiff ride, lackluster quality, clunky handling and, worse, some engine failures and fires."

    Didn't GM even bother to TEST these things before they built and sold them? GEESH!

    Let's see---if I wanted to build the worst possible sports car for the 1980s, what qualities would I put into it? Why, I"ll imitate a 1954 MG!
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600

    " but disappointment set in quickly as the Fiero developed a reputation for a stiff ride, lackluster quality, clunky handling and, worse, some engine failures and fires."

    Didn't GM even bother to TEST these things before they built and sold them? GEESH!

    Let's see---if I wanted to build the worst possible sports car for the 1980s, what qualities would I put into it? Why, I"ll imitate a 1954 MG!

    Hadn't thought about the 1954 MG in a long time. The MG excelled in looks too, in a retro way. It had a stiff ride and lackluster quality, but didn't it handle okay? I also don't recall that it was plagued by engine fires.

    I drove my brother's manual shift 1984 Fiero numerous times, and it rode okay for a small car of that period. It was also reliable over the several years and ~70,000 miles he owned it, and the engine never caught fire. I think the engines were vulnerable to catching fire if too much oil was poured into the crankcase. The crankcase of the Fiero was smaller than that of other GM cars that used the "Tech-4" engine because the car was so low to the ground. As a result, some grease
    monkeys overfilled the crankcase. Also, because the crankcase had more limited capacity, the engine was more sensitive to running low on oil. As long as you didn't overfill the crankcase or let the oil run low, engine fires weren't a problem.

    Handling was okay, even good, I'd say, as long as you didn't push it real hard. If pushed too hard, the back end could come around. But, isn't that an issue with other mid-engine cars? Let's remember that this was a low priced sporty car, not a high end exotic.

    My main objection to the 4-cylinder Fiero was its coarse, agricultural engine. It just hated to rev. Tech-4, whew, what a misnomer!


  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    A 1954 MG handed okay for a 1954 car, by American standards, but pointing it in a certain direction was no guarantee that you would actually steer that way, especially on a rough road. It's a pretty primitive vehicle, athough way fun.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 15,950
    edited December 2014
    You could get the later six-cylinder Fieros in the original styling, as opposed to just the Ferrari lookalikes. One rarely saw those it seems.

    A longtime friend of mine had an '85 four-cylinder. His only complaint was that groceries in the 'trunk' were warm by the time he'd get home.

    He did say that the girls liked it. He said he wished he could have picked it up and put it under his arm when he went into a bar. ;)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Perfect for pizza delivery!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 56,988
    What I remember most about the Fiero is that my little brother (born just a couple years before the Fiero debuted) confused it with "Ferrari" when he was a little kid, and he was disappointed when I told him the truth, and that many of them were saddled with a less than sporty engine.

    I had a remote control Fiero like this:

    image

    It wasn't an expensive toy, but is actually a real good scale model.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Shifty, I enjoyed your tribute to your father in Collectible Automobile. It was interesting, well written, and had a lot of feeling. Good job!

    Too bad Packard didn't make it.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited December 2014
    thanks for that!

    Ah, well--- there were lots of very worthy cars that didn't make it. The Auto Biz is cut throat and not always based on the merits of the product. Think of Duesenberg, Peerless, Pierce Arrow--these were magnificent cars.

    Sometimes car companies fail from mismanagement, from economic uncertainties, and in Packard's case, even from internal and external corruption. It was a very ugly and ignoble demise, that's for sure.

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    edited February 2015
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Typical GM product of those times --- underdeveloped when released, letting drivers do their R&D, then finally get the car right, then pull it off the market. Can you say Fiero? Allante? Vega? Pontiac Sky?

    All the '65 Corvair needed to go from good to GREAT was better tires, better shocks, a short-shifter and a turbo that actually turboed. :)

  • danfrommdanfromm Member Posts: 21

    Typical GM product of those times --- underdeveloped when released, letting drivers do their R&D, then finally get the car right, then pull it off the market. Can you say Fiero? Allante? Vega? Pontiac Sky?

    All the '65 Corvair needed to go from good to GREAT was better tires, better shocks, a short-shifter and a turbo that actually turboed. :)

    GM never got it right. Poor choice of materials, stupid design details. Three examples:

    Pushrod tube seals. CORSA sold, may still sell, teflon pushrod tube seals that don't harden and leak. To the end GM sold low grade short-lived rubber.

    Exhaust manifold. Log manifold that was pressed against exhaust stubs that were pressed into the head. Asbestos gasket (not a problem, not particularly friable) between log and stub. Problem was, over time and many heat-cool cycles the stubs got loose in the head. Uh-oh.

    Head bolts doubled as rocker studs. Ball-stud rockers, very American. But and however the head bolts also retained metal plates that held the pushrod tubes in place. All this had to be removed to replace pushrod tube seals. Would have been only a nuisance, otherwise ok, if the bolt holes in the block had been helicoiled. They weren't, and after a couple of pushrod tube seal replacements the head bolts turned in the block and couldn't be torqued properly.

    Don't ask how I know all this. As far as I can tell GM still hasn't learned from the Corvair.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Another near miss---the Dodge Neon. Here was an affordable, basic coupe that could have been a little American GTI or Alfa 101 Veloce or even the American Miata with a chop. Nice looks, very decent handling and braking and the upgraded engine moved along nicely. Problem? Utterly non-existent quality control, bad head gaskets, lousy dealer service, cheapskate updates, no development.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 10,639
    I look at the Neon as a 'new' Vega.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    There's no particular discussion for the following article, but I'll post it below because it'll probably be of interest to some readers...

    http://www.autonews.com/article/20150224/RETAIL03/150229935/buick-cracks-top-10-on-consumer-reports-report-card-acura-mercedes

    Comments?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,598

    Typical GM product of those times --- underdeveloped when released, letting drivers do their R&D, then finally get the car right, then pull it off the market. Can you say Fiero? Allante? Vega? Pontiac Sky?

    GM tended to be good at more mainstream products like standard-sized cars pickup trucks. It's when they tried to be cutting edge and daring that they'd tend to go at it haphazardly.

    As for the Neon, one thing they did get right was that finally, FINALLY, someone made what I'd consider to be a useful small car...at least, a useful "modern" small car. Once upon a time, things like Darts and Novas were "small" cars...

    I drove a few, both the first and second-gen Neons, and found them to be decently roomy. They fit me better than any other small car of the time. I actually considered getting a Neon, once, back before they developed their bad reputation. In retrospect, probably a good thing I didn't!

    I've heard that the second-gen Neon isn't *too* bad, but by then, I think they took most of the fun out of driving it. And it just didn't stay competitive and up to date.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 15,950
    edited February 2015
    I still see second-gen Neons almost daily, here in rusty NE OH. I'd say I see them more than any other small car other than possibly Cavaliers--and I'll allow that that might be in part to Cavaliers having been built only forty miles down the road.

    I liked the first-gen Neon coupe for looks, although I've never even ridden in first- or second-gen cars so I'll withhold comment on either.

    I don't think the Corvair was typical of GM for that period--in actuality, it was the first GM to be controversial I think.

    It does seem that the Corvair was no worse than other cars with similar engine/transaxle combinations, but that a book wasn't written about those others.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 25,598
    I'd always heard the biggest issue with the Corvair was that you had to keep the tires inflated to 15psi in front, and 26psi in the back. And you had to keep up on it. The car didn't have much tolerance for tire pressures that were too far out of spec. And often, naive owners or careless garage employees would simply inflate all four tires to the same PSI.

    The Volkswagen Bug was also rear-engine and used those swing-axles. However, a Corvair was a lot more powerful than a Bug. Or at least, a Corvair didn't take 30 seconds to hit 60 mph :p And the Corvair had a sportier flair about it that no doubt encouraged more spirited driving. So drivers were probably more likely to push a Corvair to a dangerous threshold than they were a Bug.
  • danfrommdanfromm Member Posts: 21
    It does seem that the Corvair was no worse than other cars with similar engine/transaxle combinations, but that a book wasn't written about those others.

    There were two Corvairs, 1960-64 and '65-69. The first was a VW clone with more power, worse weight distribution and a better front suspension. If the rear tires weren't inflated 4-6 PSI more than the fronts they had lethal oversteer. The only car I've driven that was more spin-prone was a '55 1500N Speedster.

    The '65-'69s had what was essentially the Stingray suspension and were the best-handling small cars in mass production of their time. Still badly-made and under-engineered. Typical GM cars of their time and, until well proven otherwise, now too. GM dug itself a very deep hole and has a lot of climbing out to do.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 15,950
    edited February 2015
    Well, they were an inexpensive car to boot, not a Porsche. I could very-much enjoy a '65-69 Monza or Corsa hardtop. I'm actually drawn to the '69 since they were the last. I know there were no Corsas after '66.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    A 65-69 Corvair has some of the best drum brakes you'll ever experience. The shifter has to go, though, and many Corvair enthusiasts have figured out how to stop the engine oil leaks. You'd think some GM engineer would have actually driven the cars before they sold them and figured this stuff out. When your car's shifter is worse than that on a WW II Army Jeep, you know you have a way to go.
  • MichaellMichaell Moderator Posts: 238,117
    Closing the chapter on the Corvair, opening a new chapter on another GM vehicle that "coulda been" - the Fiero.

    How Pontiac convinced GM brass that a mid-engined 2-seater could be marketed as an "economy" car is a fascinating story that I don't believe hasn't been told.

    Just when GM was getting the issues addressed (adding a V6, updating the styling to make it look better), GM kills it.

    Sigh.

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