Let's see, .3% or .003 of 6,000 = 18 owners. I would expect that a quite few more are not satisfied but not willing to express their true opinions here or may not have access to this forum. If only I had kept better notes in my psychology class in college. This has to be textbook.
Emotions play a big role in all this. As a small business owner, I know you have to go the extra mile for a FEW customers who "need their hand held" Does GM understand the value one customer? We shall see. I'm betting that they will apease a few who feel the need for greed!! Or is it that GM needs to show that they value our safety and monetary concerns.
Well, its day 22 and still no parts for my Bravada. GM called today to make the 123 offer and to let us know that all dealers had their parts. WRONG! My dealer still hasn't received the parts for mine. The customer rep at GM said, "Just call back Monday. I'm sure the parts will be there then." I was very ticked and blasted the poor girl. Thought it would make me feel better, but it didn't. I'm still without my car that I only had 14 hours before it was recalled. The rep told me she would "note" my dissatisfaction with the way the recall was handled and the offer of compensation. A lot of good that will do. I really don't believe GM understands that we are not upset as much that there was a recall, but the way the recall has been handled and the lack of communication. I think I will bite the bullet and file the lemon law claim on Monday with the BBB Auto Line. I am now so angry at GM that I don't think they could appease me with any offer other than another car made after the problem was found.
Sorry for the long post.
BTW I'm in Southwestern Virginia where apparently parts are shipped by wagon train.
the lemmings are happy getting their vehicles back and are back on the roads with them, look out when an envoy, trail blazer or bravada is coming your way!! when the axle breaks or the wheel falls off someone will get hurt. how many other parts of this all new vehicle are defective or poorly designed? how many parts of the suspension are crucial and their failure could cause catastrophe? this is the main concern i have and why i am uneasy about taking my vehicle back when it is "fixed". my peace of mind has been shaken and gm needs to step up and put their money where their mouth is and say this car is safe and sound and to prove it, you all get 5/60 and three full years of onstar. also got in the mail a notice my free on star minutes expire 4/26/01 (yesterday) nice touch gm
Dealer called me this morning, picked it up before noon. Now I remember why I took the chance with a first year model. The smell of the leather interior, the ride (after being in a Grand Cherokee for three weeks), and the automatic everything - simply the lap of luxury. Got a bit distracted with trying to get reaquainted with all the features while driving, but put an end to that pretty quickly when traffic got dense.
Don't know what approach I'll take with GM, they haven't pestered me yet. For now, I'm just going to shut all that crap out of my mind and enjoy my Bravada. I hope those who haven't gotten theirs yet do so soon.
Yesterday I received a call from GM telling me that the parts for my SUV would be at the dealership, repairs would be made and I would have my vehicle today. This afternoon I called the dealership and after somewhat of a heated discussion the person I talked to hung up on me. After calling again and raising billy blue hell I got a call from the service manager. I was informed that since my vehicle wasn't bought there my parts were probably shipped to the dealership I bought from that's over 100 miles away. I called GM and talked to the first person I've encountered who didn't act like a zombie. She was very nice and tried to help. She found that my parts had been shipped to the dealership I bought my car from and had already been installed in others. In the meantime the dealership where I live in Tucson, AZ had obviously installed all the parts they had in SUVs they had for sale, leaving mine sit on the lot. The young lady I talked to said she would check on things and call me Monday. She also said that my local dealership should have known better. I told her that to begin with I had no intention of making waves and was prepared to take whatever they offered for the inconvenience but now I feel that I should get something extra. She agreed and offered a month's car payment. I can make my car payments and told her that I wanted an additional 1 year on my warranty. She made a note of it and said she would look into it. I feel that's something we ALL should insist on. Forget onstar or a few oil changes. That additional year could mean a lot down the road. These cars obviously have a lot of electronic components that are pretty much untried. If any of them go on the fritz it could be an absolute nightare. Anyone else had this problem? To say that I'm angry about what's happened would be somewhat of an undertatement. Madder than hell would be a better way to put it. And how did I know this was going to happen. I guess I'm just psychic.
I am glad to hear that some of you have actually gotton your trucks back. I thought for sure mine would be ready yesterday, however, I still do not have it! I can't figure this out. I was in the service department yesterday morning, the parts were replaced, shouldn't I had gotten it back by now? A supposed 2 hour fix has turned into 48+ hours! Any thoughts on that? And before you go writing me telling me that there are parts for BOTH sides, YES, they had the parts for both sides. I missed the call tonight from GM, they asked my to call them back. I don't know what to do? Should I call them, or wait for them to call me back? Someone help?
I can't believe this guy jeff237. Having been thoroughly shafted by business type people, particularly those in SMALL business I find it utterly impossible to understand how anyone could post such a message. Greed on the part of the local dealership and a simple lack of coordination on the part of GM has kept me out of my vehicle for nearly a month and as it now stands it will be May before I get it back. It sits in an impound baking in the hot Arizona sun while they're selling the SUV that has the parts mine was supposed to have. How about responding to this, jeff 237?
I am owner of a 99 4WD 2DR LS Blazer. I don't own a 2002, but I am keeping an eye on this recall thing.
I feel bad that GM is keeping the customers in dark about the problem, the fix, the timeframe and the reliability of such a fix. Moreover, people, who paid $30,000 to become one of the first few owners of a new model, can have high expectations. GM is doing very little to assure them of the quality and to make them feel better. These unfortunate owners are not able to drive what they paid for, and GM is offering them peanuts in compensation. I am sure that these vehicles will have a VERY VERY LOW RESALE VALUE and consumers will remain WORRIED ABOUT THE QUALITY PROBLEMS AND DESIGN ISSUES FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME. But GM cares very little; profit-making is their sole objective.
Despite being a GM owner, I feel that Toyota offers a lot more PEACE OF MIND! I was thinking of buying another GM vehicle. But I don't think that I can trust GM anymore. Why should I when GM cannot guarantee PEACE OF MIND to consumers who pay over $30K for a GM vehicle?
Thank you very much for your kind thoughts. It's high time someone understood how we who plunked down a whole lot of money for our vehicles feel. I sincerely hope you never have the same experience. We thought we would be the first. As it turns out we will no doubt finish last. Being a very poor loser it isn't at all easy for me. Though GM has failed miserably in this I feel the corporation tried to do what it felt was right. The particular dealer I'm forced to cope with is for all practical purposes what I would call a gypo operation. They will NEVER get their hands on my vehicle again if I ever get it back. In the meantime, I still feel that insisting on an additonal year of warranty is an absolute must. These vehicles could give all kinds of trouble in a couple or three years that we might not be able to afford.
I have to disagree about poor resale value. The public has a very short memory about this kind of stuff. The bad tires and fake roll-over problems haven't stop people from buying Ford SUV's. If you have a car that's in high demand then the resale value will be good. If as some people have pointed out, there is so much to go wrong with our new trucks. Then why did you buy it in the first place! In this day and age most if not all cars and trucks will have some kind of recall in there life span. I have had my Bravada back for two days now. It's running as good or better than ever. With good maintenance I expect excellent service out of it. We all get cars or trucks we don't like or end up having some little problems that can't be fixed. Fortunately for me those cars have been the exception. I'm having a very good run with all my GM cars and I expect the same or better from my Bravada.
Again an over reaction by richardc4. I was responding to post 778. He felt we were all being greedy. My point was, in a successful business you value the customers by going the extra mile. Even if the customer is right, wrong, or being difficult, you make it right. You have been dealing with some inconsiderate people at the dealership that has your truck. GM should call your dealership and make them remove the parts from their SUV and put them on yours. Let their truck bake in the sun. GM should grant you your requests. I can tell by the tone of your responses on this board, you are one of these difficult customers. But that doesn't mean you should get poor treatment. Tact is probably not a word in your vocabulary!
You still have not answered my question: Why don't you ask for a full refund? Why would you want to drive a GM product if this recall has led you to never buying a GM product ever again????
All I can say is be afraid, be very afraid! You have every right to be concerned. Front end alignments are not a long involved process. There is something they are not telling you if it has taken 48 hours, and still no car. Hopefully it is something simple like the only guy who can do alignments is out sick. But I would want to know for sure why it is taking so long!
We've all recieved very different treatment and answers to our questions. It seems a little presumptuous of some people to tell others they are overreacting when they have no idea how that person is being treated. I know some of you love gm and don't want to believe they have mistreated anyone. I ahve asked for my money back. The dealer said if you think your lawyer can get us to repurchase that truck you should try. The GM area service manager said they would not repurchase the car and continued to spread misinformation about the recall.
This board seems to have been infiltrated by those tired of screwing up the Aztek board. Aren't you lucky. You will now get to read many postings by non owners and those fixated by dumping on GM. Of course all these posters are experts that are only concerned with your well being. Truth of the matter is, this is the internet, home of porn, great chance to be a liar, some place for children to make fools of themselves.
In response to the question regarding the steel for SOSTROUBLE, I am not sure what GM replaced the existing arms with. The part may have originally been a heat forged stamped part. A piece of sheet steel product is simply pressed in a hydraulic press into a desired shape using a set of pre-formed dies. The part is also strategically heated and cooled during this process so as to make the material more amenable to shaping w/o introducing stress or fractures.
The forming produces structures that add strength, sort of like corrugation in cardboard...the bends make it stronger that simply a piece of paper. A forged steel product is similar to what a blacksmith does. Heating and then shaping can produce a superior or tighter grain structure as the metal is more receptive to shaping and is somewhat annealed as well. Proper heat forging and quenching makes swords very strong, due to their very tight grain structure.
It is desired to have a very non-brittle part on your suspension components so heat forging/stamping, if done properly, is probably a good process. My guess is that GM's supplier has had difficulty controlling critical parameters in their forging process and consequently produced brittle parts with a loose grain structure as observed under a grain structure analysis, which are inherently weaker and prone to fracture. A plain steel part that has been shaped w/o forging does not necessarily receive the benefit of the heat. It is probably not as strong as an identical, properly forged product, but its quality is much less dependent on the process control of the heating/cooling. Since the material of a plain stamped part is not heated, its molecules are not as willing to be shaped and tend to resist the bending. Their grain structure will be looser and overall this part is inherently weaker. To compensate for this, I believe I read that GM made the part thicker. It's a simple approach and probably more expensive for GM as more steel is used. It is probably heavier as well and with the strict CAFE standards for fuel improvement, weight reduction is a major priority. Just pull on your front fenders and you will see how thin the steel is. These SUV's need to cut weight wherever they can.
Ultimately, I would prefer a cast part. I have an Audi that has all alumuminum cast suspension parts. It is very light (unsprung weight) and very strong. However, cast parts can be very expensive and the supplier had better know what they are doing to manufacture them properly as well.
I hope this answers your question. I guess I would like to have some knowledge regarding the other weight bearing suspension pieces. Who manufactured them? Were they manufactured using the same process as the problematic parts? How can the owners of these SUV's be assured the other parts were produced with sufficient quality? All very good and reasonable questions to keep in my mind when your family is tooling down the road at 75MPH. Since I was never convinced I would get the answers I wanted...and yes I am overly conservative...and yes I am an engineer who works on products for automotive...and yes I do failure analysis, etc., I simply decided up front to get a refund and I got out of my deal. In GM's defense, they probably over-designed the the replacement part. They were obligated to. Good luck to you all.
I agree with you about being conservative with your families safety. I have asked for why the parts originally failed design?manufacture? and what has been done to correct this. Process/Testing results. The only answer that I've gotten so far from the area service manager is that it is a cast product and the original ones probably missed a step in the manufacture process. The new parts are identical and can only be distinguished by a white dot of paint. He also said that the only ones to fail where on test vehicles, so I doubt his integrity. I have also asked for my money back with no results.
I don't think there is any reason for you to be "afraid" about, I have seen the parts, went through the process with the mechanic. There are not much parts to be removed, it is a straight forward replacement, matter of fact, with few hours of training, you and I can perform the work! matter of fact, a friend of mine did his front end work on his truck right in his drive way and involved more than just a bracket.
As why your truck is not ready, as it was said, either the guy that does it is out, the alignment computer is down, a lot of other cars are ahead of yours or may be he just did not start working on your truck in the first place, he just placed it in the shop to give the impression that he is working on it. Check around to see if he has other trucks in the lot or on the show room floor, may be he got less parts than trucks and since you are nice, he just took advantage of it. Call GM, let them know it is taken 48 hrs+ , ask why, and it is about time to raise some hell with the dealer and GM. Make sure it is on record.
Speaking of bad communication, there is nothing of whatsoever on my record regarding the 123 offer, the only thing on record is all the "hell" I raised in total of 6 or 7 calls.
I took the family out yesterday, it drove exclent, the steering wheel was strait, it ran right in the center on the highway without holding the steering wheel. I put about 100 miles on it yesterday.
Hey guys the lemon law paper work sure does speeds things up. They ship your parts immediately to the dealership .A legal adivsor calls you and handles your case. You don't have to deal with those customer service people that don't know the difference between Up and Down. A found out a few interesting things that every one should research and see what results you find out:
1. Who is Carl Decurtis from Marlton, NJ and how was he able to have he vehicle repurchased?
2. What about the repurchase that occurred in Alabama. How was that done so easily?
These two questions are in responce to the article written in autonews.com
I understand where you coming from, the nature of your job makes you suspicious of any thing that is man maid, since you always test and look for failure!.
My wife will not go to any restaurant for any reason, she was a restaurant(s) manager for many years from national chains to 5 star ones, she knows exactly what goes on in the kitchen, no matter how good the chef is, how careful management is, no matter how clean the health inspection is. Because of her "insider" knowledge, she will not eat in a restaurant, period.
spoke to the sales manager at the dealer i bought my envoy from he said "gm will buy back the vehicle from anyone no questions asked" i suggest you contact your sales managers and tell them you want a full refund and are not interested in picking up your repaired trucks
If you think you can trust Toyota trucks more than GM then you should first look at at the problems in the Tundra forum. I think you will change your mind.
I really was kind of joking when I said to be afraid, be very afraid. I heard that in a movie once, and thought it was a pretty catchy phrase. In hindsight, it probably wasn't the best choice of words regarding this recall :>)
Anyway, even with the afraid statement, I really wasn't referring to the new brackets. I have seen them, and have been driving on them since Thursday evening. I am not the least bit worried about them.
I was really referring to the fact the repair was taking over 48 hours. I would be concerned they may have done something stupid during the repair process, and were trying to overcome whatever it might have been. That is why I said to make sure you have a full and complete explanation for the delay.
Let me repeat...There is nothing wrong with the brackets! (I think)...
I find it interesting that jeff237 seems to feel he knows what kind of person I am. I've always tried to be nice to others and treat them as I would want to be treated. That is, until I'm put upon or cheated. At that point I have a tendency to become quite rash. Jeff237 referred to me as a difficult customer. I've had many salespeople tell me they wish all their customers were as easy to do business with as I am. He also mentioned tact. I'm a very blunt person. That could also be construed as being honest. If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck I call it a duck. That's an old time worn phrase but it pretty much fits. In one of his posts jeff237 pretty much implied that many of us need to have our hands held. I can't speak for others but nobody has ever had to lead me around by the hand. Perhaps I'm over reacting in this matter. I think with good cause. I bought an Envoy because I liked it and wanted it. I still do so if I ever get it back I'll keep it. The dealership that has by SUV obviously received parts. They were no doubt used to repair the vehicles he has for sale instead of repairing mine that I understand should have first priority. The dealer I purchased my vehicle from knew where it was but used parts earmarked for my Envoy to repair others. If there are any who don't understand my absolute frustration and anger they must be totally out of touch with reality.
I just re-read both of your posts, however, I am confused. Please elaborate on why we are re-reading. If you have gotten a better offer than what we have been offered, I wish you would share it with us.
Glock40***If I have chatted privately with you in the past couple of days, please e-mail me with an explanation of what you are talking about. I think you are the same person, but I am not sure. You have me confused. If you are not, I wish you too would elaborate on the matter. I thought we were all in this together. It looks as though some of you seem to have more information than the rest of us.
**On another note: 36 hours later, no truck. I am going to place a call to my dealer to see if they have any Envoys for sale. Something tells me with the weekend here, they probably chose to fix a few to try to sell today. I really hope that this isn't the case!!! Be back with the results in 5 min.
Well, that took less time than I thought. They DO NOT have any for sale, they are still recalled. Thats good news, I suppose. I thought I had them, but they came through. I guess I won't see my truck till Monday, so until then..........
I asked people to re-read post # 685 simply because it shows a [icture of the actual bracket that was replaced. Some people may have missed this the first time around and may want to see it.
Also, my service bulletin copy says that the new bracket has green paint on it not white. BUT... the actual "NEW" bracket on the car has a white dot. (More confusion from GM)
As far as post # 737... I filed the Lemon complaint the day after the recall. My car was fixed on April 20th (couldn't pick it up until the 24th. I think that GM snet the parts to my dealer super fast because I filed with the BBB Autoline. That is all I am saying. I know other people have not gotten their cars back. I am curios to see if the one that got their cars backhad filed with the BBB Autoline, and the one that do not have their cars probably did not.
Fine with me. We really should be sticking to the facts. Obviously emotions are running a bit high right now and I would imagine that before this is over there will be some people going absolutely ballistic.
I checked out that BBB Autoline and if I am being a bit personal, please excuse me. Can I ask, "What exactly did you put down in the box entitled "Resolution sought"?" If you do not wish to answer it publicly, would you please e-mail me, because I am a bit confused about the filing procedure. For those of you ready to attack me, please give me break. I am interested in feedback from anyone who has actually filed a claim at this site. Please keep it factual or don't bother answering. Speculation on this is getting old, I am only interested in the facts. Thanks rroman. DebbiN67@aol.com
I just went to a central Ohio dealer to order a new Bravada. I did my homework and was prepared for the ordeal at the dealer. My previous experience at another dealer was a nightmare, even considering I was at the time eligible for GMO pricing. That dealer claim I was stealing money from him. Back to today's event.....
I emailed all the local fleet managers and shared with them the price www.southerngm.com offers ($200 below invoice). Most dealers thought I was crazy and told me so. I had one dealer that came close to the price and I had one dealer match the price.
I went today to order the vehicle, expecting to get hassled, the price to be raised, etc., etc. That didn't happen. The dealer had all the forms filled out, we ordered the vehicle online together, then I left. The entire transaction was quick and painless.
Btw, the only drive able Bravada was one that arrived last night from the factory. They had about 5 Bravadas and about 6 Envoys, none of which were fixed yet.
I am convinced that Internet shopping is the way to go. However, I would recommend dealing with the fleet managers directly, rather than deal with the third party sites. I attempted to use autobytel, carpoint, etc, etc. The best results were knowing what you wanted to pay and emailing the fleet manager directly.
If anyone needs a good Olds dealer in central Ohio, I can certainly recommend one.
In my case I think it was good to file early because I got my SUV back very quickly; however, since the Lemon laws in Ohio kick in after 30 days, my actual claim is NOW dead. The BBB Autoline representative called me on Friday to tell me that now that the car is fixed there is nothing they can do. It can now only be valid for other owners that file if the car was out of service for their respective states number of days when the lemon law kicks in. As i Said, in Ohio it is 30 days. I think NJ is 20 days. However... to get back to your question, this is what we put on the BBB Autoline claim form:
Resolution Sought: ------------------- Customer wants mfg to repurchase the vehicle and cancel the lease and give full refund of all monies invested in vehicle since time of purchase.
I hope this answers your question and can help you.
I wonder if you would constantly brush your pant legs against the dirty running boards? That was a problem with the Pathfinder which one of the reviews pointed out. Any opinions on whether the GMC design would lead to this problem or not?
Also, why doesn't the 2002 Envoy have Xenon HID headlights? The older models do, seems like a step backwards. Anyone have any comments on the ability of the halogen headlights to light up the road and beyond? The claim is that they are "high power halogens" whatever that means. How do they compare to other cars, trucks, etc...
I realize that not many have had much experience with either of these items, but any comments would be appreciated.
Rjvicars: Thank you for the explanation on the steel.
rroman: Where is the white dot on the part? Before I give my neighbors a good laugh seeing me under the SUV. Since they know that I don't know about car maintenance. I can check the fluid levels, but I have someone else to the maintenance.
Doc: I don't have the running boards on my Envoy, but the loaner Durango did, and they got in the way.
I hope everyone that doesn't have their SUV gets theirs BACK SOON!!
The GM Campaign Information Processing Center letter just came. This GM 2/24000 mile Smart Care Maint. Contract, how much did it cost. They state if already purchase they will refund. What does it include?
I already purchase the extended warranty. Is that part of it or something else? The extended warranty cost about $1,400. If it's different, it was never offered when I purchased the SUV, not that I would have taken it.
After reading many of the messages posted here it seems (to me anyway) that the repair and return of our vehicles is being left pretty much up to the descretion of the dealerships instead of GM ruling it with an iron hand. Some across the country are saying they got their cars back and others who appear to be in the same general areas aren't This just ain't right.
I got a letter from GM today telling me that my parts would arrive yesterday. I may be dense but that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The letter also told that I would be provided with an additional 3 months of Onstar and 2 year 24 month smart care coverage. To me that would amount to a few oil and filter changes. That's not very much for the inconvenience some of us have had to endure. My situation seems to be different from any I've read about and I've asked for an additional year's warranty. Now I guess the best thing to do is wait and see.
In response to your question about the running boards...I really could not see any problem with getting any dirt on my pant legs. First off, my truck hasn't gotten that dirty (any sign of dirt and I wash it), and secondly, when I step out of my truck, I usually step out far enough so that I don't make contact with the running boards.
In regards to the headlights, I don't have a problem with the headlights. They work just fine.
I went out with screw driver in hand to put my license plates on today. Does the license plate holder on anybody else's have screws in the front? Mine just slid in. No screw holes or anything to attach it more securely. If anybody walks up they can just reach down and slide the plate out with no problem. I don't want my plate just disappearing on a parking lot.
I've seen quite a bit of discussion concerning running boards, which has peeked my curiosity. At the risk of sounding naive, is there any utilitarian value associated with them, or are they just there for the aesthetics. They look like they should block road tar and other gunk from getting on the lower door panels. Do they help with that problem? Went back to my TB brochure, and sure enough most of the pictures showed them on the vehicles, and they seemed to look pretty nice. Bought my TB off the showroom floor, what seems like a lifetime ago, and they never even occurred to me at the time. May swing by the dealer tomorrow to see if I can see any live.
One other question. Can anyone recommend an effective type of drive-thru carwash that is safe on a vehicle's finish. I've never been able to convince myself that an artificial hurricane surrounded by tons of machinery could ever be safe on a vehicle's finish.
I did a thorough washing for the first time today, and quickly realized it was considerably more work than my '95 Blazer. The added height makes the roof a lot more challenging. It would be nice to have an alternative automatic method that could cut down on the periodic thorough hand washings.
Florida only uses one plate in the rear of the vehicle, but I checked the uninstalled front holder that came with my TB. Sure enough, it is the same slide-in design you described. There are a couple of raised nipples that look like they would sort of snap into the upper screw holes of the license plate. If I had to use the holder, I would probably drill a couple of holes in the bottom and secure the plate to the holder using the holes in the bottom of the license plate. If you look at the way the holder sits on the bumper, you will see there is plenty of open space behind the lower portion of the holder to enable the use of a couple of small bolts to attach the plate to the holder. Of course, I am looking at an uninstalled holder, so I am sure it would be necessary to remove the holder from the bumper before performing the surgery. That might be a problem, because I can't tell for sure if those silly looking plastic anchors they use to mount the holder are a one-time use item or reusable.
You could actually drill the holes while the holder is attached, and never hit the bumper. Then you could just use a couple of short self-tapping screws. However, this approach may require a significant leap of faith on your part:>)
My Bravada is the same, I was concerned, so I went to my tool box, found 2 black screws -to match the color!- done.
I had running boards installed on my Taho, they are great, I use them to reach the the roof -car roof, that is-. Yes they do keep the dirt out off the lower door section. I am planing to add them to my Bravada, I have a canoe and like to be able to reach up to secure it.
Car wash, my neighbor just told me that he can't take it any more with dust and dirt, he got same color as mine, Onyx Black. He told me that a friend of his got his car coated with spray "glaze" or something like that, according to him, all the guy has to do is just hose it down, also he mentioned that no dust will stick to it after the rain. I wonder if any one know any thing about that coat and the cost of it?
GM has come a long way in their policy concerning buy backs or refunds. When I first asked, they said NO WAY. One week later it was agreed to by the GM Area Rep. I still don't have my money. They said it would take up to a month. Has anyone gotten their money back any quicker?
If you keep this truck I think you are asking for problems. There is a certain trust that goes with buying a new truck and GM has totally violated that trust and in my opinion does not deserve our business. They should and probably will do whatever we ask them (within reason) to make this right. A two year warranty and on star extension is reasonable if you want to take the risk of keeping your SUV. I would also ask for a free loaner for all future repair visits. I think you will need it. Refunds are also within reason.
If you are a GM lover, the best thing you do is make this recall very tough for them. This will only make them a better company and will make better SUVs available to you in the future. I hope that one day we can all buy a new GM model with confidence. Can't be done today!
I received my truck back on Friday. Everything seems solid and it it rides as great as the day I fist picked it up. They gave the truck a full detail and since I brought it in for a full tank of gas, they gave me a voucher for the Moil down the street for a fill-up.
They showed me the work that was done and the old parts (no difference). It was a three bolt replacement and a front end alignment.
A M re called me that evening to discuss the compensation package that was being offered to us. They are giving a 24month service plan, a 1 month extension on the warranty and a 3month On-Start extension. I also fought for having my first month payment reimbursed, having the warranty extended to 5 years/60K miles and running boards. They are getting back to me on Tuesday on a decision. She mentioned that regardless, every customer gets the first three things I mentioned. We'll see what happens.
brinnc. My dealer said after talking to GM, was to replace the wiring harness, similar to what you pointed out as a wiring issue, except if they send the same type one that's in it, I may have the same problem. You might have gotten a better fix.
My dealer drilled out the 2 stubs on the front backet of the license plate so it could be screwed in.
I accepted the 123 deal. I was not asked if I was then satisfied. The rep also possibly slipped by referring the call/offer as a survey. When I asked what she meant by that she said, they were asking if you had your truck back, if not, does the dealer have parts,etc., then the 123 offer. I stated clearly to her that I was still not satisfied even though I will take the 123 offer. She never said additional compensation is forfeited. When I asked if the one month bumper to bumper extension would also extended the miles. She had to ask and came back and said no. So the standard warranty is now 37 months, 36,000 miles. I also told her why I didn't think the 123 was enough. On Star I may never use anyway. Who wants to sit at the dealer for an hour or more for an oil change when you can get it done in 15 minutes at a quick change place (although I kinda prefer the dealer doing it for a while initially). And if I hit 36000 miles first, the extra month means squat. She also said the area dealers rep will be following up. Yeah right, I won't be holding my breath on that one.
Maybe I should have not accepted the offer as others stated and maybe getting it elevated to the next level whatever that is, however it came at a very bad time personally for me and I couldn't think straight.
Everyone should continue to let us know what happens. I still plan on a carefully crafted letter if I can find out where to send it.
If it's of any help, Arizona only has one plate. A front licnse plate bracket was in the back of my Envoy and after looking very closly I found that there were some small dimples in the front bumper wher self treading screws could very likely be used. You might check. I would think that a dealer in a state where front license plates are used would at least install the front bracket. Here we go again with poor service. Come to think of it I've had mine since March 14'th and I haven't got my plates yet.
Don't feel bad about taking what they offered. It's better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick. I was going to take it until my parts were used on other vehicles. The same as you, this couldn't have come at a worse time. My wife is very ill, we're trying to settle an estate over 500 miles away and I'm driving a Mitsubishi Montero. I don't think there's enough gas between here and where I have to go to take care of business to make the trip. This slug I'm driving must really make OPEC happy.
Sostrouble: The white dot is at the front edge face of the bracket. If you face the front of the car, look under the car just right of the left wheel (Passenger Side). The bracket is mounted just under the control arm. The white paint dot is about the center of the bracket facing you. Hope this helps.
Comments
The rep told me she would "note" my dissatisfaction with the way the recall was handled and the offer of compensation. A lot of good that will do.
I really don't believe GM understands that we are not upset as much that there was a recall, but the way the recall has been handled and the lack of communication.
I think I will bite the bullet and file the lemon law claim on Monday with the BBB Auto Line. I am now so angry at GM that I don't think they could appease me with any offer other than another car made after the problem was found.
Sorry for the long post.
BTW I'm in Southwestern Virginia where apparently parts are shipped by wagon train.
also got in the mail a notice my free on star minutes expire 4/26/01 (yesterday) nice touch gm
Don't know what approach I'll take with GM, they haven't pestered me yet. For now, I'm just going to shut all that crap out of my mind and enjoy my Bravada. I hope those who haven't gotten theirs yet do so soon.
I feel bad that GM is keeping the customers in dark about the problem, the fix, the timeframe and the reliability of such a fix. Moreover, people, who paid $30,000 to become one of the first few owners of a new model, can have high expectations. GM is doing very little to assure them of the quality and to make them feel better. These unfortunate owners are not able to drive what they paid for, and GM is offering them peanuts in compensation. I am sure that these vehicles will have a VERY VERY LOW RESALE VALUE and consumers will remain WORRIED ABOUT THE QUALITY PROBLEMS AND DESIGN ISSUES FOR A LONG PERIOD OF TIME. But GM cares very little; profit-making is their sole objective.
Despite being a GM owner, I feel that Toyota offers a lot more PEACE OF MIND! I was thinking of buying another GM vehicle. But I don't think that I can trust GM anymore. Why should I when GM cannot guarantee PEACE OF MIND to consumers who pay over $30K for a GM vehicle?
If you have a car that's in high demand then the resale value will be good. If as some people have pointed out, there is so much to go wrong with our new trucks. Then why did you buy it in the first place! In this day and age most if not all cars and trucks will have some kind of recall in there life span. I have had my Bravada back for two days now. It's running as good or better than ever. With good maintenance I expect excellent service out of it. We all get cars or trucks we don't like or end up having some little problems that can't be fixed. Fortunately for me those cars have been the exception. I'm having a very good run with all my GM cars and I expect the same or better from my Bravada.
Allen
You still have not answered my question: Why don't you ask for a full refund? Why would you want to drive a GM product if this recall has led you to never buying a GM product ever again????
The forming produces structures that add strength, sort of like corrugation in cardboard...the bends make it stronger that simply a piece of paper. A forged steel product is similar to what a blacksmith does. Heating and then shaping can produce a superior or tighter grain structure as the metal is more receptive to shaping and is somewhat annealed as well. Proper heat forging and quenching makes swords very strong, due to their very tight grain structure.
It is desired to have a very non-brittle part on your suspension components so heat forging/stamping, if done properly, is probably a good process. My guess is that GM's supplier has had difficulty controlling critical parameters in their forging process and consequently produced brittle parts with a loose grain structure as observed under a grain structure analysis, which are inherently weaker and prone to fracture. A plain steel part that has been shaped w/o forging does not necessarily receive the benefit of the heat. It is probably not as strong as an identical, properly forged product, but its quality is much less dependent on the process control of the heating/cooling. Since the material of a plain stamped part is not heated, its molecules are not as willing to be shaped and tend to resist the bending. Their grain structure will be looser and overall this part is inherently weaker. To compensate for this, I believe I read that GM made the part thicker. It's a simple approach and probably more expensive for GM as more steel is used. It is probably heavier as well and with the strict CAFE standards for fuel improvement, weight reduction is a major priority. Just pull on your front fenders and you will see how thin the steel is. These SUV's need to cut weight wherever they can.
Ultimately, I would prefer a cast part. I have an Audi that has all alumuminum cast suspension parts. It is very light (unsprung weight) and very strong. However, cast parts can be very expensive and the supplier had better know what they are doing to manufacture them properly as well.
I hope this answers your question. I guess I would like to have some knowledge regarding the other weight bearing suspension pieces. Who manufactured them? Were they manufactured using the same process as the problematic parts? How can the owners of these SUV's be assured the other parts were produced with sufficient quality? All very good and reasonable questions to keep in my mind when your family is tooling down the road at 75MPH. Since I was never convinced I would get the answers I wanted...and yes I am overly conservative...and yes I am an engineer who works on products for automotive...and yes I do failure analysis, etc., I simply decided up front to get a refund and I got out of my deal. In GM's defense, they probably over-designed the the replacement part. They were obligated to. Good luck to you all.
I have also asked for my money back with no results.
As why your truck is not ready, as it was said, either the guy that does it is out, the alignment computer is down, a lot of other cars are ahead of yours or may be he just did not start working on your truck in the first place, he just placed it in the shop to give the impression that he is working on it. Check around to see if he has other trucks in the lot or on the show room floor, may be he got less parts than trucks and since you are nice, he just took advantage of it. Call GM, let them know it is taken 48 hrs+ , ask why, and it is about time to raise some hell with the dealer and GM. Make sure it is on record.
Speaking of bad communication, there is nothing of whatsoever on my record regarding the 123 offer, the only thing on record is all the "hell" I raised in total of 6 or 7 calls.
I took the family out yesterday, it drove exclent, the steering wheel was strait, it ran right in the center on the highway without holding the steering wheel. I put about 100 miles on it yesterday.
-Alan
1. Who is Carl Decurtis from Marlton, NJ and how was he able to have he vehicle repurchased?
2. What about the repurchase that occurred in Alabama. How was that done so easily?
These two questions are in responce to the article written in autonews.com
The site is http://www.autonews.com/html/main/stories/fordgm417.htm
Well I did my research and what I found out, well see for yourself. I am not going to post my results just yet go ahead dig deep!
My wife will not go to any restaurant for any reason, she was a restaurant(s) manager for many years from national chains to 5 star ones, she knows exactly what goes on in the kitchen, no matter how good the chef is, how careful management is, no matter how clean the health inspection is. Because of her "insider" knowledge, she will not eat in a restaurant, period.
-Alan
he said "gm will buy back the vehicle from anyone no questions asked"
i suggest you contact your sales managers and tell them you want a full refund and are not interested in picking up your repaired trucks
Anyway, even with the afraid statement, I really wasn't referring to the new brackets. I have seen them, and have been driving on them since Thursday evening. I am not the least bit worried about them.
I was really referring to the fact the repair was taking over 48 hours. I would be concerned they may have done something stupid during the repair process, and were trying to overcome whatever it might have been. That is why I said to make sure you have a full and complete explanation for the delay.
Let me repeat...There is nothing wrong with the brackets! (I think)...
Message #685 you can see a picture of the bracket for the 2002 Bravada (same for all).
Message #737 GM seems to take care of Lemon Law complaints first!
Take a look at both of these.
Glock40***If I have chatted privately with you in the past couple of days, please e-mail me with an explanation of what you are talking about. I think you are the same person, but I am not sure. You have me confused. If you are not, I wish you too would elaborate on the matter. I thought we were all in this together. It looks as though some of you seem to have more information than the rest of us.
**On another note: 36 hours later, no truck. I am going to place a call to my dealer to see if they have any Envoys for sale. Something tells me with the weekend here, they probably chose to fix a few to try to sell today. I really hope that this isn't the case!!! Be back with the results in 5 min.
Love,
Jeff
Also, my service bulletin copy says that the new bracket has green paint on it not white. BUT... the actual "NEW" bracket on the car has a white dot. (More confusion from GM)
As far as post # 737... I filed the Lemon complaint the day after the recall. My car was fixed on April 20th (couldn't pick it up until the 24th. I think that GM snet the parts to my dealer super fast because I filed with the BBB Autoline. That is all I am saying. I know other people have not gotten their cars back. I am curios to see if the one that got their cars backhad filed with the BBB Autoline, and the one that do not have their cars probably did not.
By the way, I'm in Ohio.
DebbiN67@aol.com
I emailed all the local fleet managers and shared with them the price www.southerngm.com offers ($200 below invoice). Most dealers thought I was crazy and told me so. I had one dealer that came close to the price and I had one dealer match the price.
I went today to order the vehicle, expecting to get hassled, the price to be raised, etc., etc. That didn't happen. The dealer had all the forms filled out, we ordered the vehicle online together, then I left. The entire transaction was quick and painless.
Btw, the only drive able Bravada was one that arrived last night from the factory. They had about 5 Bravadas and about 6 Envoys, none of which were fixed yet.
I am convinced that Internet shopping is the way to go. However, I would recommend dealing with the fleet managers directly, rather than deal with the third party sites. I attempted to use autobytel, carpoint, etc, etc. The best results were knowing what you wanted to pay and emailing the fleet manager directly.
If anyone needs a good Olds dealer in central Ohio, I can certainly recommend one.
Resolution Sought:
-------------------
Customer wants mfg to repurchase the vehicle and cancel the lease and give full refund of all monies invested in vehicle since time of purchase.
I hope this answers your question and can help you.
Also, why doesn't the 2002 Envoy have Xenon HID headlights? The older models do, seems like a step backwards. Anyone have any comments on the ability of the halogen headlights to light up the road and beyond? The claim is that they are "high power halogens" whatever that means. How do they compare to other cars, trucks, etc...
I realize that not many have had much experience with either of these items, but any comments would be appreciated.
rroman: Where is the white dot on the part? Before I give my neighbors a good laugh seeing me under the SUV. Since they know that I don't know about car maintenance. I can check the fluid levels, but I have someone else to the maintenance.
Doc: I don't have the running boards on my Envoy, but the loaner Durango did, and they got in the way.
I hope everyone that doesn't have their SUV gets theirs BACK SOON!!
The GM Campaign Information Processing Center letter just came. This GM 2/24000 mile Smart Care Maint. Contract, how much did it cost. They state if already purchase they will refund. What does it include?
I already purchase the extended warranty. Is that part of it or something else? The extended warranty cost about $1,400. If it's different, it was never offered when I purchased the SUV, not that I would have taken it.
I got a letter from GM today telling me that my parts would arrive yesterday. I may be dense but that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The letter also told that I would be provided with an additional 3 months of Onstar and 2 year 24 month smart care coverage. To me that would amount to a few oil and filter changes. That's not very much for the inconvenience some of us have had to endure. My situation seems to be different from any I've read about and I've asked for an additional year's warranty. Now I guess the best thing to do is wait and see.
In regards to the headlights, I don't have a problem with the headlights. They work just fine.
Mine just slid in. No screw holes or anything to
attach it more securely. If anybody walks up they can just reach down and slide the plate out with no problem. I don't want my plate just disappearing on a parking lot.
Are the Bravada and TB the same way?
Roman: My new parts have the white dots on them.
One other question. Can anyone recommend an effective type of drive-thru carwash that is safe on a vehicle's finish. I've never been able to convince myself that an artificial hurricane surrounded by tons of machinery could ever be safe on a vehicle's finish.
I did a thorough washing for the first time today, and quickly realized it was considerably more work than my '95 Blazer. The added height makes the roof a lot more challenging. It would be nice to have an alternative automatic method that could cut down on the periodic thorough hand washings.
Appreciate any help on either question.
You could actually drill the holes while the holder is attached, and never hit the bumper. Then you could just use a couple of short self-tapping screws. However, this approach may require a significant leap of faith on your part:>)
I had running boards installed on my Taho, they are great, I use them to reach the the roof -car roof, that is-. Yes they do keep the dirt out off the lower door section. I am planing to add them to my Bravada, I have a canoe and like to be able to reach up to secure it.
Car wash, my neighbor just told me that he can't take it any more with dust and dirt, he got same color as mine, Onyx Black. He told me that a friend of his got his car coated with spray "glaze" or something like that, according to him, all the guy has to do is just hose it down, also he mentioned that no dust will stick to it after the rain. I wonder if any one know any thing about that coat and the cost of it?
-Alan
If you keep this truck I think you are asking for problems. There is a certain trust that goes with buying a new truck and GM has totally violated that trust and in my opinion does not deserve our business. They should and probably will do whatever we ask them (within reason) to make this right. A two year warranty and on star extension is reasonable if you want to take the risk of keeping your SUV. I would also ask for a free loaner for all future repair visits. I think you will need it. Refunds are also within reason.
If you are a GM lover, the best thing you do is make this recall very tough for them. This will only make them a better company and will make better SUVs available to you in the future. I hope that one day we can all buy a new GM model with confidence. Can't be done today!
They showed me the work that was done and the old parts (no difference). It was a three bolt replacement and a front end alignment.
A M re called me that evening to discuss the compensation package that was being offered to us. They are giving a 24month service plan, a 1 month extension on the warranty and a 3month On-Start extension. I also fought for having my first month payment reimbursed, having the warranty extended to 5 years/60K miles and running boards. They are getting back to me on Tuesday on a decision. She mentioned that regardless, every customer gets the first three things I mentioned. We'll see what happens.
My dealer drilled out the 2 stubs on the front backet of the license plate so it could be screwed in.
I accepted the 123 deal. I was not asked if I was then satisfied. The rep also possibly slipped by referring the call/offer as a survey. When I asked what she meant by that she said, they were asking if you had your truck back, if not, does the dealer have parts,etc., then the 123 offer. I stated clearly to her that I was still not satisfied even though I will take the 123 offer. She never said additional compensation is forfeited. When I asked if the one month bumper to bumper extension would also extended the miles. She had to ask and came back and said no. So the standard warranty is now 37 months, 36,000 miles. I also told her why I didn't think the 123 was enough. On Star I may never use anyway. Who wants to sit at the dealer for an hour or more for an oil change when you can get it done in 15 minutes at a quick change place (although I kinda prefer the dealer doing it for a while initially). And if I hit 36000 miles first, the extra month means squat. She also said the area dealers rep will be following up. Yeah right, I won't be holding my breath on that one.
Maybe I should have not accepted the offer as others stated and maybe getting it elevated to the next level whatever that is, however it came at a very bad time personally for me and I couldn't think straight.
Everyone should continue to let us know what happens. I still plan on a carefully crafted letter if I can find out where to send it.
2 = 2 years of "smartcare" from the dealer
3 = 3 month extension of free onstar.
Does that help?