Buick Rainier, Chevy TrailBlazer, GMC Envoy

9t9wu8

I leave the traction control on all the time except for the odd situation where I want to be able to spin the tires ... the dragstrip comes immediately to mind )

Traction control runs off the ABS monitors and watches for wheel speed variances ... it only intrudes when a wheel starts to spin ... I notice it in the winter in slippery conditions, and occassionaly in the summer in wet or sandy/gravel conditions. There is no penalty for having it on.

I really learned to appreciate it last fall at the Bragg-Smith Advanced Driving School. http://www.bragg-smith.com/home.html

lyndellw

I have had two vehicles with traction control,on both vehicles it was designed to only work under 25MPH. Some are full time,but I don't think the three sisters are one of them.

glock40

Hey Mark if you don't mind I would like to speak to you about the repurchase of your vehicle. I am trying to get my vehicle repurchased now and was wondering how you went about this and who authorized it. I been having a lot of problems with my vehicle. Any help is appreciated you can email me at Flip1rat2@aol.com

rpageau

Ron...I wouldn't waste a lot of effort to get the +30 days of warranty in writing. Most of it is already covered in the existing warranty booklet in your glove compartment. The existing warranty adds day for day to the warranty any out of service days due to warranty repairs. Depending on how long your vehicle was out of service, the warranty is automatically extended those 20+ days.
Bottom line is they are giving you something that you pretty much already had. Pretty sporty of them, don't you think?

akajoe

There is a difference between limited slip and locking differentials. I understand that what is available (or standard) on these SUV's is a locking differential (someone mentioned the Eaton built unit used on Tahoe class SUV's).

Limited slip differentials have the planetary gears that don't spin freely, thereby limiting the maximum spin ratio between the two sides to some ratio less than 1:0 (say .75:.25). (A spin ratio of 1:0 would be one side spining 1 rotation to the other side spining 0 rotations.) This way you are guaranteed that the most the slipping side will spin is .75 rotations to every .25 rotations of the side with traction (or 3 spins to every one spin of the other side). Such a system is passive.

Locking differentials cause the planetary gears to lock up with some "centrifugal" mechanism when the slip ratio exceeds a certain amount (let's say .75:.25), at which point the transfer ratio then locks into .5:.5 (equal spin on both sides). Because one side has traction and the other side does not, even though the wheels start spinning at the same speed when locking kicks in, the locking mechanism is kept active because of torque difference between the side with traction and the side without. The side with traction would be experiencing a lot of torque whereas the side without traction would be experiencing a very small amount of torque. When traction is fully restored to both sides, the torque difference becomes zero, and the locking mechanism is released. This is how the system shifts from .75:.25 slip to .5:.5 (locked) to .5:.5 (unlocked) automatically. Such a system is a mechanically controlled active system, and doesn't rely on a computer and electronic sensors.

This is how the locking differential works on the TB/Envoy/Bravada.

jac27

This is my first entry. I am looking at Bravadas and have been following these discussions. My current car is a 300M , and my previous car was an STS, both with traction control. Both have a dash button to turn it off, but in those 7 years of driving, I never used it. Why would you WANT wheel spin? I also have heard that if you were stuck and needed to rock the car back and forth, that you would want it off, but I never had that opportunity. Guess I'll get AWD and won't worry about it.

mfullmer

Well, I took delivery of my Bravada yesterday. Great lease terms! My only real complaint is with the breaks. The pedal feels really mushy and there is a lot of travel before they engage. Does anyone else notice this? The car is generally well made although it feels pretty "loose". Much more so than my two week old Seville STS or even the '99 Buick Century Ltd. I turned in on Monday. I love how big it feels. I had a '96 Blazer and it feels more comparable to a Tahoe than a younger sibling of the Blazer.

markm2002

Glock40 and RRoman8420: GM is buying mine back, not the dealer. The dealer helped me only by getting me in touch with the GM area rep. These area reps normally do not deal with customers directly, they simply deal with the dealerships. They have the authority to authorize a repurchase but they don't want to do it at all. I would call my dealer and insist on speaking to the area rep. They won't give you his/her phone number but they should have him call you. Give the dealer grief until he sets up this call with the area rep. As you know the GM customer assistance center can do almost nothing for you; don't beat a dead horse. I would also write a letter to the area rep detailing your concerns and asking for a refund (cc: his/her boss and the owner of the dealership). The dealer will give you the address. It wouldn't hurt to file a Lemon Law notice in your state as well. Hope this helps.

rroman8420

Thanks for the info... we did the Lemon law (Ohio) on April 9th. That is why (I Believe) we got our SUV repaired on April 2oth! GM knew we filed the same day... we received a call from them. I do not believe it was shear luck that my parts showed up at the dealer on April 17th, when everyone else did not seem to have any parts!

zeen

I priced the new Bravada on lease and it was out of reach, higher than BMW. Mfullmer: What kind of lease deal did you get?

bleffler

Fletch45,

The number you posted is Chevy, do you know the number for Olds?

thanks,

bob

fletch45

I looked on Oldsmobile.com and all I saw was email contacts. Sorry, that is all I have.
jim f

bleffler

I called the general Olds Customer service number. The guy I talked to put me on hold and went to ask a supervisor. When he came back, he stated that he didn't have a method of accessing the manufacturing systems.

zeen

I just visited the GMC dealer. He said the Envoys are coming in and piling up. He feels GM needs an incentive to get them moving after the recall.
No one is leasing and that has always been a significant part of every dealer's business.
Interesting how just a few weeks ago, everyone was paying close to MSRP.

dindak

Really depends on where you live. They are still very scarce in many parts. I'm sure some incentive will hit soon. I think Ford has some on the 02 Explorer.

trek1420b

Does anyone have any recommndations for a lock for the spare tire. GM parts sells a third party 'J' hook lock for $30.

I recently picked up my TB after having a witring harness replaced and some wiring taped with nickel plated taping. Soon after leaving I discovered my right turn signal didn't work. When I got home I found the fuse was blown. I replaced it but the new ones kept blowing out. Another trip to the dealer (that's 3 now but who's counting) and the mechanic fixed it by moving the wiring behind the compartment on the right side cargo area. Just wanted to let everyone know in case they run into a similar problem.

mfullmer

Well, to start, I got my Bravada (AWD, most options) for $100 over factory invoice. I worked them down to a .0028 money factor (They originally offered me .0033). Prime lending is at .0040 so I figure I got a pretty good deal. I paid no security deposit and the residual was right on par with most GM cars. You say a BMW lease was better. What about the lease was better? Money Factor, Cap Cost Reduction? If you are just talking monthly payment then there is no way to compare. Plus, I know BMW is still doing open-ended leases (and they are advertising them) where GMAC will only do closed-end.

zeen

I simply compared monthly payments on a 3 year lease with $3,000 down for different vehicles. The Bravada came out to $623/mo (incl. tax), about the same price range as the Mercedes and BMW and higher than the RX300. Even if the Bravada is as good a vehicle, I think people will think twice if they can lease a true luxury name for the same or less money. I am currently paying $300/mo. for my '98 Bravada. No way I'm going to pay more than double for the new Bravada. The Envoy salesman I spoke with last night said the lease customers are walking out when he discusses prices with them.

dindak

You are right... GM has to put a better lease rate on these trucks soon. You won't get the same deal as you had on your old truck, but double seems a bit much. These trucks are however, more expensive than the ones they are replacing.

rroman8420

I have the 2002 Bravada, only options I don't have are running boards and sunroof, other than that it is loaded. We got $1,500 off sticker, Free Z-Bart, and put $2,000 down including lic. & Fees. We did the 63 month lease (has 60 month/60k warranty) and our monthly payment is $525 including taxes. (Oh, and we also have free GAP insurance on the lease. Many bank are including this for free now.) We thought it was pretty good and this was done on March 24th. We spent about 3 hours discussing pricing and payments until we got to a price that was OK (but painfull). We also had a Blazer (96) before with a $340/month payment. But the Bravada is a much higher-end SUV than the Blazer. Our other consideration were the BMW, RX-300, Montero (big one) and we even looked at the Santa Fe. I think when Hyundai makes some comfort/luxury and bigger engine this will be one to watch because there is a lot of value there.

mfullmer

I only know what my lease agreement says. In short: Fully loaded Bravada AWD (no running boards) - MSRP: 36,976 - Purchase Price: $33,813. 15k miles per year for 3 years. I put $2,500.00 down AND purchased 5k extra miles. My payments are $545.00 per month. I also checked the lease on www.leaseguide.com where you can put in your exact numbers and it will tell you whether or not you got a good lease deal. On every item except residual value it gave me an "Execellent deal" rating. On residual is gave an "Average" rating.

mfullmer

say people are walking out when they talk about price and leasing. The price of the vehicle has nothing to do with leasing or purchasing. The worst things consumers do is go into negotiations worrying about the monthly payment. You can have two similar monthly payments and have vastly different "deals".
The first thing you do is set a purchase price. On these vehicles I talked them down to $100.00 over factory invoice in no time flat (Try even getting close to invoice on a BMW or a Lexus).
Next you work on the lease itself. You can get pre-approved with GMAC online before you even go. If you have good credit don't even think about letting them charge you the security deposit. From my dealings the residual value and money factor are the hardest things to negotiate. If you know what rates are and normal residual ratings are you can quickly see if they are trying to play games. www.alg.com has a great program you can download that gives you pretty accurate depreciation rates on ALL new cars (including the 2002s)

doc35

You are one of the few that I have ever seen that smartly negotiates their lease. Often, people will negotiate their car and then when the lease is pulled out, they don't pay attention to the fact that the lease is at MSRP and go for it. A lease can be "structured" in any way to make a payment "seem" affordable and is typically the easiest way to make a "payment focused" buyer buy without knowing what they are truly spending. You seem to have done it all right. First negotiating an excellent price. Then eliminating the usually high upfront costs (which everyone seems to forget or allows them to be factored into the lease to make them "disappear"), then working on the money factor and residual which you seem to have already had an idea of, and making sure it is a closed-end lease. I am sure that you will be very happy with your choice.

mfullmer

I think it is so interesting that for so long (and even now) people get into trouble by leasing because they don't fully understand it. People spend hours cutting coupons, reading labels, pouring over sale papers to get deals on everyday [relatively] inexpensive items yet they will go into a purchase or lease agreement on one of the most expensive items you can get without fully understanding it. Don't get me wrong, leasing is very complicated, but there are many resources out there for education and reference. I had not leased before mostly because I hadn't spent the time to investigate it and I wouldn't sign anything that I didn't 100% understand. I am, however, one of those people who turns his vehicles over every three years and I HATE having to sell them on my own. Once I took the time to educate myself, leasing is the only thing that makes sense. Plus, since I am a business owner and accountant, I understand the philosophy of "Purchasing Appreciating Assets and Leasing Depreciating Assets". I also think it quite fun to walk into a dealership fully informed and take and keep control of the process throughout. I have done this twice in two weeks and, I have to say, once they got over the shock it was quite a pleasant experience.

By the way, has anyone had a problem with the interior door handle escutcheon? I noticed this morning that the one on the front passenger door was coming off. It snapped back into place but not very securely. Another item for my punch list.

Has anyone noticed how people stare out you in this vehicle, especially Tahoe and Yukon owners. I love that the vehicle is much taller than the old ones.

zeen

You certainly want to make sure you are getting the right price and the right money factor. However, you still have to look at the monthly payment with a reasonable cap cost reduction payment and determine whether it's worth it. The point I'm making is that the price of the car combined with a residual lower than many luxury cars on a percentage basis puts the new GM's right up there with the lease payments on true luxury vehicles. To some, driving a Lexus or Mercedes has value above and beyond the quality of the car. In other words, the Bravada may be every bit as good as those vehicles but people perceive it to be a step or two below the luxury brands. The dealer I spoke with is dealing with that problem.

dindak

rroman8420 : Two big problems with the Santa Fe.. it's ugly and it made by Hyundai.

zeen : Perception is reality and for many people, they think it's better coming from Mercedes or Lexus even though they aren't even real trucks.

Saw a 2002 Explorer up close today. Not attractive at all. I like the old one better even though it is smaller. I think Ford blew it. Trailblazer and Pathfinder are both far more attractive to me.

ttrimnell1

I ordered a Bravada after my salesman figured out a 3 year/36,000 mile lease for me. It stickered at just under $36,000 and he sold it to me for $500 over invoice. With my Olds owner loyalty coupon and $2000 cash down, the payments are going to be $450 a month including tax. He had his sales manager doublecheck the numbers and he came out with the exact same figures. This is a GMAC lease and that's why I don't understand why Zeen's salesman gave him a quote of $623 a month for 3 years with $3000 down.

zeen

Thanks for the pricing info, ttrimnell. I had walked in and asked for a ballpark figure. It was before the recall and they were thinking in terms of MSRP, not invoice. When I heard that number, I figured it wasn't even worth negotiating. Perhaps now I'll check it out again.

svescio

My neighbor works for a local dealership, which means he gets to drive new vehicles on a daily basis.

So when he drove home in a 2002 Explorer it gave me a chance to look at it very closely.

You are absolutely right it's not attractive, and it's not "evolutionary" as Ford puts it. In fact when it comes to looks it has regressed. Ford did a better job with the new Escape.

As much as Motor Trend boasted about the new Explorer having a third seat. I got into the third seat and needed help getting out. The third seat is for kids - adults should avoid it. It also is not padded very well. Which means shorts trips only. I think GM was smart in waiting to add the all so popular third seat until next year when the extended versions are coming out. I still think third seats belong in Vans. Easier to get in and out of.

dindak

Love the Escape also. My sister is thinking about buying one but they are waiting for the bugs to be worked out. As for third row seating, I figure if you need that you should get a full size SUV or an extended van.

guy21

Someone should look into their state's laws regarding a company (GM) selling the same product (Bravada, TB, Envoy) with two different warranties. These vehicles are essentially the same (engine, trans, etc.) except for the sheetmetal. Olds has 5/50, the rest 3/36. At least the Intrigue and Aurora have different engines than the rest of GM.

zeen

What tax rate is included in the $450/mo.?

ttrimnell1

Glad to help out Zeen. You can go to the Bravada website and look at their lease examples on a $35,127 MSRP awd Bravada. It says that with $1500 down you can lease one for 3 years/36,000 miles for $528 a month. My state tax is 6% so that would be $559 a month. My Olds coupon is worth $1500 towards any new Oldsmobile and that takes care of the initial down payment. I'm also adding $2000 cash which would bring that figure down to $499 a month. The sticker price of my Bravada is significantly higher than $35,127 but the selling price to me is $33,326. The price difference between those two numbers ($1801) would reduce the monthly payments by another $50 a month, which comes out to $450 a month for 3 years. An important point to know is that every $1000 you add to your down payment or that your dealer takes off the price is $30 less each month.
Also remember that the lease example is based on the MSRP of $35,127 which makes the figures seem high until you start negotiating the price, and try to deal up from the invoice instead of down from the sticker. If you were planning to give them $3000 that would help even more.

zeen

Thanks Trimnell. That's very helpful.
Here's what I did today. I priced an Envoy SLE at $29500 (invoice plus $300). I would put down $4000 and the lease price the dealer came up with was $404 before tax. I ran the numbers with an estimated $17000 residual and 7% lease factor and came up with a payment of $365 before tax. That seems awfully low. Using your numbers with the less expensive Envoy, if I reduced your price by almost $4000, that would be about $120 off your monthly payment bringing it down to $330? Does that make sense? What would you expect to pay monthly with your $3500 down and a price of $29500?
Thanks again for your help

b4z

My dealer got a pewter bravada the other day and it is truly a great looking SUV. Much better looking than the ford products.

Gm seems to be havings problems with their panel fit. In fact, with every new vehicle that GM produces the gaps appear to get larger.

The gap between the lower front fender and the lower leading edge of the passenger side front door was so large that i could stick my index finger in a few inches. No exxageration!

The gap on the driver's side was not as large. The gaps between the doors are way too big also.
This is absurd.

mfullmer

The fact is that all three have the EXACT SAME basic GM warranty which is 3 years/36k miles. What I found out when I was signing all of my paperwork is that Oldsmobile pays for the extended warranty (regular GMAC Protection Plan) for an extra 2 years/24k miles. A little deceptive maybe but I don't really care since my lease is only for 36 months.

By the way I have to comment on your "check out your states laws...". Why are people so eager for government to take control of their lives? GM does not sell these vehicles, they are sold by their respective companies. Why would a government care what different car companies give on their vehicles? Does that mean that since power windows are standard they should be standard in every car a company sells. Lets get away from having an all powerful government and take responsibility for ourselves. If you don't like a vehicle because another has a better warranty, buy the other vehicle!

bshap

Even if your state did have laws regarding different warranties on the same product, the Bravada has AWD and not 4WD like the others. In that respect theyre different products.

ttrimnell1

Zeen, I agree that $330 does seem really low for an expensive truck like that even with $4000 down.
Unfortunately, I'm not quite sure how to figure out a lease by myself even though I know the lease rate and the residual value of the Bravada after 3 years. The way I figure how much a lease would cost is if I have a printed example of one and apply the formula that my salesman told me. I
think the difference between a 12,000 mile and a 15,000 mile lease is $12-15 a month. $365 a month
plus tax with $4000 down seems to be about right to me personally even though the difference in price between yours and mine is way off if you use that dealers' lease formula. Actually, I priced an Envoy that was about $300 less than the Bravada and my saleman used the same terms that I gave him. His company owns a GMC dealership across town so he had their finance lady plug in the numbers in their computer with the current lease rate. What she came up with was $580 a month including tax, which is obviously way too much. I did that before I found the Bravada leases on the Olds website, and when I showed it to my salesman he ran the numbers and came up with far better terms than the GMC based on the example I gave him. He doesn't sell Oldsmobiles but his company also owns an Olds dealer in another city so he had the sales manager there run the lease through his computer and he got the same terms. The only thing my salesman could think of was that maybe the Bravada had a better residual than the Envoy and that Olds was putting some money into the lease because it was so expensive at first. Whatever the case maybe you should try to price a Bravada next and compare it to the Envoy monthly payment that your salesman gave you. If there's not much difference then perhaps you should get the Bravada because for whatever reasons the Bravada lease turned out to be much more affordable for me. It amazes me why the Envoy is so much more costly per month, but then again GM does work in mysterious ways.

gohuskies

I drove a 2002 Envoy equipped with Marketing option 1SH which is the "Premium & Professional Towing" package. Several observations:

1. The body fit on the panels is the worst of any American SUV manufacturer. I could easily stick my index finger in the gaps around the right front door. Quality control appears to be nonexistent. Ford and Jeep build their vehicles to a much stricter tolerance and it shows. I also looked at a Toyota Highlander on his lot, what a difference.
2. The 1SH package has a 4.10 axle ratio which cannot be substituted with the 3.42 or 3.73 gears which are more fuel efficient. It would make sense to offer options with the price of gas moving higher daily.
3. The 1SH package also contains the load leveling suspension which seemed to sway and lean when I did any type of hard cornering activity at 35 mph or better.
4. The sales person indicated that his Dealership is experiencing difficulty selling new or rebuild new Envoys because of the bad press involved with the recall.

I think prospective buyers should wait a while to see if the fix is effective and what General Motors will do to stimulate sales. The recall problem and the high price of gasoline may require new $ incentatives.

billsoter

mfullmer
Thank you and God bless you for your comments about government involvement.
If only more people felt the way you do we would be a lot better off.

b4z

Did you read my post #1015? We both did the finger test and it flunked.

Re: Gas mileage. The 4.10 gear will probably only hurt hwy. mileage by about a gallon. Remember, the tires are very tall on these SUV's.

If it were a camaro with 4.10's the gas mileage would be horrible, but the tires on the triplets are much taller than those on a passenger car.

zeen

Trimnell:
I checked the Bravada lease numbers at the Bravada web site. My only questions is what price are those figures based on? It is not clear that they are using the MSRP as the purchase price. They may be using something in between invoice and MSRP. Did your experience indicate that the MSRP was the price used on the Bravada site?

zeen

Trimnell and Fulmer:
You guys have been very helpful. Thanks.
I went to Leaseguide and used my purchase price and down payment, the .0028 money factor and the only unknown is residual. Fulmer: Where did you come out on residual?

rpageau

You can fit your index finger in the right front door gap!!!!! You have got to be kidding? You're making that up to just to get people excited, Right?

There was considerable discussion on this board earlier about gaps, and now this latest round finally got me curious. I did a thorough check of my Trailblazer this morning, and certainly didn't find the size of the gaps offensive. I guess I would have to see some other makes to decide how much better they might have been. I can assure you I could't fit even my little finger in any of the gaps. In fact, I wouldn't be able to fit my index finger in the total gaps (both front and rear combined) surrounding the front doors. And I don't have fat fingers.

I then went one step further, and measured the differences in size between corresponding left side & right side gaps, including the hood. The biggest difference I could find was .031 (center door gaps), which is about 7 sheets of copy paper or 10 sheets of newsprint. Not exactly a staggering difference. I would venture to say I could probably find that kind of difference even on everyone's favorite benchmark Toyota.

The only thing I can figure is that the big gaps must be one of the extras that come with the more expensive Envoys & Bravadas.

lyndellw

I have an Envoy SLT,4WD,4:10 gears,and air suspension. Compared to other SUV's I have driven,and the 98'Durango I had prior to this Envoy,overall it would be a toss up between the Envoy and Durango as far as ride and handling.I am a real critic on gaps.I don't have any to complain about. I do have some other areas that are completely unsatisfactory in design. For instance, fender flaps would fit very poorly. The plastic cap on top of the rear hatch glass is attached to the glass with moulding tape.I had a 6 inch area just below the 3d brake light come loose. I have checked TB's and Envoys on dealer's lots and the same area is pulled loose. I removed the cap on mine, cleaned the contact area with alcohol and reinstalled with 3M 1/2" moulding tape. So far OK,till it sets in the hot sun!!
As for gas mileage with the 4:10 gears, I am getting 18-21 average interstate at 65 -75 mph.
In my case the extra performance and torque offset the mpg.
Another thing,I changed oil,and filter yesterday. The owners manual calls for a PF 59 filter. I removed a PF 58. There is a difference inside the filter. No charts available, dealer was closed,so went with the PF59. Oil pressure is the same as before. Overall, I am less than satisfied with the Envoy,but like I stated before I am a real critic.

dindak

There must be some people with really small fingers on this board. I am an average size person and the only way my pinky will fit in any gap is if it's crushed into 25 pieces. As for the build quality, I have only seen production Envoys and they were excellent and on par with the Pathfinder I saw the same day.

b4z

The gaps we are tailking about are on the bravada.
There is body cladding on the doors and what looks like body cladding on the front fender, which is in fact sheetmetal. The gap on the driver side was acceptable, but the gap on the passenger side was large enough to put my finger in.

I wonder how much snow and mud will pile up in there?

Also the gaps on the hood/fender are uneven.

flyersrule

I have been following this board for a couple of months now, and following the making of the new TB for even longer. This board has been very helpful, thanks to everybody for all of the great posts. I feel that I walked into the dealership well informed!

I finally test drove the Trailblazer yesterday. One word: S_W_E_E_T

I can't believe how much more power it has than my 96 blazer. I drove a black Onyx LTZ. What a difference. I want one!

What I need is some convincing from the people on this board that it is a great car and worth the 34,000! A big step up!

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Plus, any info on what you paid for an LTZ. with no options would be very helpful. When talking with the salesman, he said they would be in the '500 over invoice' range (didn't even ask, didn't even want to talk about money at this point).

guy21

Thanks for the clarification of how GM is marketing the extended warranty on the Olds products. I guess my point on laws is that sometimes they are there for protection. I have a GM product less than one year old with transmission problems. Failed once already, now slips and grinds. The local GM rep says "operating as designed". Therefore; no defect, no repairs, no warranty as far as GM is concerned. I will be turning to my state's law for a remedy.

cafranz1

I assume most of you bought from dealer inventory. I am some 6 weeks waiting for Chevrolet to give my small dealer in New Hampshire an allocation so that they will build my vehicle (an LTZ). Chevrolet customer assistance center has tried to get things moving. The company is doing the big dealer first thing again....just like my last Corvette. Anybody know a way around this allocation nonsense?