Just curious, since I've recently been renting the LS from Hertz (the Neverlost gps in the Hertz makes the trips a lot more fun). I regularly take jaunts from Vegas to SoCal or Phoenix and other than a couple of models w/malfunctioning CD players & a piece of loose plastic underneath a car, the LS performance has been nonproblematic. What kind of problems have you been having, and has the dealer been helpful?
I really like this car, but can't think about buying it new. The resale value is terrible - I can get a 2001 V8 Sport for appx 26K.
Has the car held up to your expectations? Any rattles, trim pieces breaking, etc.? I was considering a 2000, but being its a first year car, figured I'd get the 2001.
XType manuals sold in US 1536. Autos, 16609. This is for the first 6 months of 2002 according to Jaguar's database. Slightly less than 10% but far better than the LS. UK, Germany, France, Spain, and Italy had more manuals sold than autos. Canada, Austrailia, Switzerland had more autos than manuals. My conclusion is that the LS manual would be alive today if they had sold the car in Europe as first planned.
The 2001 will be better than the 2000. Almost all problems were corrected by then except the window regulators. We've seen a few rattles and squeaks but most were fixed by the dealer under warranty or easily fixed by the owner. Nothing chronic. Most owners seem very happy (even those with 2000 models) and will be buying a new one in the near future (auto buyers only). A few have had engines or trannies replaced but nothing out of the ordinary. If you like it and can get a good price, buy it.
I'm sorry to read the LS manual is going bye bye. I'm very pleased with my 2002 manual as it runs well and is lots of fun. Maybe the manual will return as a six speed with the "all-new" 2005 model. I must say I'm surprised FMC did not stick (no pun intended) with the stick. If Caddy, BMW and others can do it ...so could FORD. As much as I love my car, I must say, I feel a bit let down by Ford. This is somewhat typical of American manufacturers ...not being able to see far enough down the road. And for me to think "they" were serious about building a world-class automobile. I'm sure the changes on the 2003 will be nice but I'm waiting until 2005!
Thank the dealers and lack of a European market for the demise of the manual. The dealers simply refused to stock them or even order them in some cases and without the strong demand from Europe the manual accounted for LESS THAN 1% of LS sales. Only hope now is with a SVT version. I predict the CTS will see the same fate unless they sell a ton of them in Europe. Manuals also appear to be on the way out (although it will be quite some time before they're gone) due to recent advancements in CVT and SMG technology. BMW will not offer a traditional manual on future M3s and M5s in favor of a Sequential Manual Gearbox. It's faster than a traditional manual (can you double clutch and shift in 0.2 seconds?) yet still offers an automatic mode for those rush hour gridlocks.
A minor correction to your post regarding the move away from manual transmissions. Agree with your analysis of why the LS lack of manual sales was somewhat self-imposed, however the impending death of the manual transmissions on BMW's M cars is incorrect.
Although the SMG II sales are about evenly split with the 6 speed in current M3's, the true manual is still predicted to be around for a while and is the definition of a "M" engineered car. The 2005 M5 is rumoured to have a 7-speed SMG, however no reports have mentioned the dropping of the standard manual.
Side note: Most tests actually have the six speed faster than the SMG II, if only by a hair and due to quicker launch control.
Before you reply, yes I did see the 9/18 Autoweek article. However most observers think we are far off from manual(less) peformance cars even though SMG is increasingly taking on marketshare (actually better than 6 speed sales currently).
I was simply quoting what the M product manager said: "It won't be long before SMG is the only transmission option for the performance cars." Since they've proven it works and the price point is right I don't see any reason for BMW not to ditch the traditional manual very soon.
And when I said it was faster, I was referring to the speed of the shifts, not 0-60. I'm aware of the launch issue which slows it down without the European 'launch assist' mode.
All clear...it will however be a shame if the true manual option continues to erode. Although the SMG-type trans are a far leap from traditional torque convertor automatics, they also a bit shy from the control and connection with a three pedal transmission. It also seems many of the M3 SMG cars are bought by those who are impressed by the technology itself, and virtually all who option it buy it sight unseen.
You also got to wonder if the lack of manual cars on some lots is directly related to the ability of the sales rep to drive a stick car.
With the cash back on 2002's does anyone have an idea what a good lease deal on a 2002 LS V6 Sport would be?
I'm looking for nominal upfront payment and 15000/yr. I have access to the X-plan as well. Would something around $400-425/mo. be doable. I'm on a tight budget and that woould be my limit.
You have not provided enough information for me to provide you with accurate info, but I'll try to take a stab at it.
1. You did not say if there are any options on the LS V-6 sport that you must have.
2. You did not say where you live, nor does your profile list your state. In addition you did not say if your $400 - $425 per month budget would include sales and property taxes if they are applicable in your state.
3. I'm not an expert on X plan pricing, I know that it is close to dealer invoice, but I don't know what else the dealer gets to tack on such as the regional marketing charge, conveyance charge or any prep charges.
4. I also assume that you are talking about an auto trannie, not manual.
5. You did not say for how many years you wanted to lease the LS.
In any case a V-6 Sport, auto with NO options with regional marketing charge and conveyance charge plus an estimate for registration would have an invoice price of about $34,000. On top of that would be a $3,000 reabate that you would use to reduce the cap cost.
Figuring a 3 year lease at 15K mile / year and $0 down, should come to about $470 per month, assuming that the lease special with 0.5% interest is available where you live. (This does not include any taxes!)
If you put down $2,000 the monthly lease cost (again without any taxes) would be reduced to about $415 per month.
Since the special interest rate is only 0.5% it is most advantageous to put $0 down, unless you have to put down some up front money in order to get approved for the lease.
Well funny you should ask rgnmster. BMW has been advertising lease specials in my local paper.
A 2002 525i with a discounted purchase price of $42,960 has an advertised 36 month lease for $502.16 per month, not including any taxes. However, the BMW 525i lease is with $7,000 down and is for only 10,000 miles per year.
Converting the 525i lease to $0 down and 15,000 miles per year it would come to approximately $789.66 per month.
That's $18,951.84 in 2 years or over 7 grand more than the larger LS over 24 months.
Even the much smaller 325i will run you $665 / month for 36 months @ $0 down and 15K miles / year according to other BMW adds.
Well cb44, rgnmstr seemed to be confusing lease cost verses resale, so I was trying to provide and apples to apples comparison of the lease cost of a V-6 LS verses a 525i, which would be the closest BMW to a LS V-6.
If you want to analyze resale value I can do that too and the LS really doesn't look that bad. Yes BMW's maintain a much higher precentage of original cost in resale value, HOWEVER they cost a heck of a lot more than a LS in the first place so the actual depreciation loss in REAL DOLLARS is a lot closer than you might expect. Percent means nothing, its how many dollars you loose over your ownership period. On other interesting thing that I have found around here is that used BMW's from private parties are hard to come by, dealers seem to snap them up and then add in huge markups. This means that there is a very large difference in what a BWM dealer will give you in trade verses what they will attempt to resell your car for. You can go to the Kelly Blue Book website and compare trade in values to dealer resell values.
You are very correct that the real cost picture is not resale value alone.
On another note, much of the reason for dealers getting the majority of used vehicles is due to lease turn-ins and the fact that the dealer will then certify used cars (7yr/100K) which is the only real way to get an extended BMW factory warranty (especially handy on a car coming out of the initial 4 year waranty period and into the potential of expensive service costs).
Like other makes, BMW can make it financially appealing to turn the lease vehicle in (even early at times) to move into a newer model or next series up. That is the advantage of having a car line which has a clear path upward while maintaining the same (if expensive) heritage.
I was replying to the post left by "long story" who refered to his LS as a POS and bitched about what appeared to be $10k od depreciation over 2 years. I had replied how much he thinks a BMW depreciates in 2 years. I asked this question because you have to compare purchase price when your doing this. I got over 5 grand off my 2002. With a BMW you might get a hundred bucks.
Slunar, thanks for the lease info. I live in Michigan and was looking for a no-options, automatic car.
I think your number is probably in the ballpark. Right now I'm leasing a $20000 cap cost vehicle, no money down and 15000mi. I pay $303.mo. tax included. I figure if the cap. cost on the LS is around $31,000 then the payment should be in the $450-475 area with tax (roughly 50-55% higher than my present payment). Right now money is tight so I may just buy my vehicle off-lease (99 Galant) and wait another year to make a move. I expect my finances to improve in the next 12 months. Still, it probably behooves me to at least checkout the lease deals and find out how desparate they are to move 2002's. Saw a good 40-50 2002 sports sitting at the dealer I visited (no v6's though). I've seen the lease for the LS V8 (non-sport?) advertised on TV for about $380 with 800 down but that was for returning leasees. Wonder whether that deal might be expanded as the 2003's reach the showrooms. That vehicle has to have a cap cost similar to a V6 sport given the 3 grand premium for the V8.
I tend to question his posts, here and @ LLSOC. He complains about dealer service in the abstract, no specifics. I offered my help (he allegedly lives in my area and I know the dealerships owners son, who is the service manager at my dealership) with the dealer and he basically refused. Again, just accusations of incompetence.
Some people have had starting (or lack of starting) issues that were isolated to a specific cause. The remedy is quick and easy. Even when my cooling fan pump went out to lunch, I had a visible warning that something was wrong (it was IFR behind my car with white smoke) and I made it easily to my dealer. My only service issue is the lenght of time it takes to get parts. I assume (I know) that the longer the LS is in production, the easier parts will be to get.
OK cb44 didn't realize which post you were replying to, one of the quirks of a chat site like this where there may be multiple topics going on at once.
cayennered1: You can go to the Lincoln web site to get estimated lease payments. Click on "build my Lincoln" then "LS". Configure the LS the way you want and then click on "Finance". The Ford Credit link will come up with a fill in the blank menu that will automatically put in local incentives for your zip code. It also takes MSRP from the Build section and figures the residual. All you will have to do is put in what you think your actual discounted cap basis will be, select the length of the lease, mileage and finally add in any down payment you would put down. The web site will then give you the approximate monthly payment before taxes.
It's a great tool to see if the dealer is jerking you around or not. I was considering replacing my '00 with an '02. I went to 4 dealers. The first 3 wanted to know how much a month my present lease was and then tried to act like it was a big deal that they could get me in a new '02 for $25 a month less (They tried to avoid talkng about what the CAP cost really was). However, that was a lot more than the Ford Credit calculator came up with based on a cap cost of invoice + marketing charge + registration. The 4th dealer was stright up and gave me a price that was within a couple of bucks of what the Ford Credit calculator said which was $55 / month less than my '00 lease. (All 4 dealers had the identical car in stock other than color).
So I gather you didn't go ahead with the '02 lease? Man, I would be driving that '02 today if I could have gotten a deal like that. Unless of course you intend to buy your '00 at lease end or are considering another brand.
The other day I started the my car(2000 V8 Sport)and the temperature gauge went to max after less than five minutes of drive and the message display said entering in to reduced power mode.
I pulled over-shut the car down-restarted it and everything went back to normal. Needle came to normal and message went away.
Well - the reduced power mode was "limp home" mode because the engine overheated (or so it thought). It cuts power to alternate cylinders to help cool the engine. If it came back to normal immediately then it sounds like a bad sensor or wiring connection to the engine temp sensor. I suppose the thermostat could have also stuck closed momentarily and then opened by the time you restarted it. Dealer will probably replace the thermostat and check the sensor and wiring assuming it's still under warranty. Bruno just recently had a similar problem where the wiring harness insulation was stripped away (whether it was a rodent or caused by the mechanic replacing the thermostat is still up for debate).
Saw an ad yesterday by a local dealer outlet that specializes in upscale lease returns. They sell nice looking, 2 or 3 year old cars, but always seem a little too proud of them (a few months back they had a MY00 LS8 Sport they were asking $26K for).
Anyway, this ad was for a '99 7 Series Sport. No idea on mileage, but like I said, their cars always look great. They're asking $33,870. That feels like some big time depreciation in $ terms.
For comparison purposes, I lease my 2000 MTX for $475.00 a month including Calif sales tax, 15k a year, including the ESP Service Plan, 3 year Red Carpet. Agreed price was $32,800. I'm comfortable with $500 a month, and all my leased cars are in that payment range. I've got 9 months to go on the lease. Does anyone know what the purchase price on this car might be if I buy it at the lease end? Do you think they will REALLY want me to take this orphan off their hands and give me a discount? Does anyone know how the leftover MTXes are selling and at what price? Thanks
From what I've heard there is no bargaining on lease returns. You either buy it for the price stated in the lease (it's on your lease papers) or walk away - they won't deal one red cent even if the market value is much lower than the lease buyout. That assumes it's a Red Carpet lease.
<<<<Anyway, this ad was for a '99 7 Series Sport. No idea on mileage, but like I said, their cars always look great. They're asking $33,870. That feels like some big time depreciation in $ terms.>>>>
The 7 series BMW is the #1 most depreciating car in the US. Even the car mags make fun of that fact. Don't see why anyone would buy a 3 series when they could drive a 2 year old 7 series for the same money.
Desertguy, although it was real tempting to get and '02 LS, given the special deals right now, I decided that an '02 was just too much like my '00. Yes there are some nice improvements, new cam chains, drone is gone, much better cup holders, new trannie ratios etc., but 98% is the same including my biggest complaints about the LS. I decided to would wait for an '03. So now it's a waiting game to see when the '03's finally arrive on dealer lots and then how long afterwards the incentives are added.
Stanny, there is no bargaining with Ford Credit. Your purchase price should be clearly stated on your lease paperwork, take it or leave it. Although despised when new by most Lincoln dealers, there appears to be VERY strong demand for V-6 MTX LS's in the used car market. Whomever ends up with your LS MTX will have no problem selling it, that is assuming you haven't abused it too badly.
my 02 ls defective at the rear quarter panel sails. The paint has swirls, buff burns, and fish eye marks in paint. The orig. dealers body shop estimated the warranty repair @$2,500 should'nt this be a buy-back?
Depending on the expertise of your dealers body shop there is a very good possibility that the repair and repaint job that they do will be better than the factory paint job. That's the way it is with my dealer. The body kit that they painted has absolutely no orange-peel or anything wrong with the paint whatsoever.
Where do you get the info that MTX LSes are hot now on the used market? I checked both Edmunds used and Kelly Blue Book prices and an automatic equipped otherwise exactly like my getrag is worth $600-800 more.
Let's do an unscientific test of your theory -
Anybody want to buy my Autumn Red 2001 5-speed before my lease is up?
I agree with ls1bmw0. I purchased a '97 Chevy Tahoe new which had orange peel in several areas. Before I signed the papers, I had the dealer agree with me that the paint was a problem. They actually seemed quite happy to repaint it same color, saying that their paint job would look better than a good factory job. They were right. It looked great. Now why the factories can't do it right the first time ...
hi..i live in jersey and was quoted 480.oo month lease payment with absolutey no money down. car retails for 39,000. term was 36 months. no security..no bank fee......nothing. Fair deal?
heyjewel: When I went to a local LM dealer and started explaining that I was looking for a new can and I'd be turning in my '00 leased LS, the first question out of the salesman's mouth was "That wouldn't be a manual would it?" When I told him no, he said "I wish I could find some MTX used LS's, we get 3 - 4 people a week in here looking for used MTX LS's.
rbud... Even with no taxes $480 / month for 36 seems reasonable for a 39K MSRP LS. Again, you can go to lincolnvehicles.com and link to Ford credit, punch in all your pertanent info and see what monthly payment it comes back with. One of the quotes I got for a LS MSRP @ $38,865 was $469.60 / month before taxes $0 down, so if your $480 / month includes any taxes it's a great deal.
One month in on a new lease and I keep experiencing a knocking sound on hard acceleration or cornering and thought it might be the advance track kicking in. The car will be going to the dealer in 2 weeks for this problem. Anyone having a similar problem or able to provide any feedback as to what else may be the problem?
As for lease pricing. As a returning LS Red Carpet customer I applied the $1000 owner loyalty and the $3000 factory rebates as a reduction to the cap cost and am leasing for 36 months (only 35 payments Lincoln is making the first payment) $500 down with 15000 miles a year and including all taxes for $499/month. The list on the car was just over $40500. I thought this may help some of you shopping right now.
I'm trying to figure out why there is such a high demand for LS MTX lease returns. Where were these buyers when the car was new? The only explanation I can imagine is that there is some fire sale mentality (CHEAP). If the dealers thought these models had AIDS when new, why are they suddenly embracing a used and more potentially problematic used MTX? Inquiring minds want to know.
jndcav if your advance track is kicking in, you should see an indicator lamp in your instrument panel indicating advance track.
I have occasionally had the advance track kick in, but I don't recall any "knocking sound" associated with it... at least nothing very noticeable. If you are really pushing it, you will also feel the effects of the advance track applying individual or diagonal brake patterns and, depending upon circumstances, it will also back off the timing or throttle. Mostly, it operates quite unobtrusively and keeps the car from kicking the rear end out or otherwise going where you don't want it to go.
since the warranty repaint at which time my vehicle was out of service from 7.18 to 09.12 and given zero loaner. At inspection with Body Shop owner only after my request (by the way the Ford field service engineer recommended this shop as having "state of art equipment") I found chips at both right and left doors, gas cap cover chipped and failed touch-up, two long runs on rear bumper, rt side mirror insalled incorrectly with bends on crome and miss-aligned molding and trim. My vehicle is in worse shape then when I began this disheartning experience. The paint is swirrled chipped, pitted and uneaven! The DSB instructed a FSE to supervise the repair as I was concerned the defect may jepord. the structure. Ford did not comply instead they assumed there position was to authorize the repair the engineer never even read my file. After insisting I go to his perferred Body shop I did not hear from him again. I was fortunate to know a GM dealer who allowed me to borrow a vehicle while mine was in the shop. I am aware of the laws and have been employed as a finance manager for over 5 years. I have suppported Fords products in the past through extended warranties and aftermarket products. I had complete faith they would step up to the plate on this. In fact I wanted to spare them the trouble of a costly re-paint and allow them to replace the vehicle without branding the title from the start. Lets not play dumb here who would buy a car that has been repainted vs one that has not and pay the same price?? I'm begining to wonder about this web site and who is sponsering it! A beautiful car with a tight [non-permissible content removed], closed minded, my way or the highway mentality manufacture.
Who would buy a repainted car? A good dealer repaint will most often look better than the factory finish. Mass production versus individual detail to attention. Of course that assumes the body shop is good - sounds like yours is a piece of crap. No loaner?? Unfortunately the dealer has way too much power over the handling of warranty issues. I suggest trying a different dealer (if possible). You can also try calling the Lincoln CAC (if you haven't already). If you're a LLSOC member (llsoc.com) you can use the club resources to help get your problem fixed. Trial memberships are free.
I don't understand the comment about who sponsors this site.
Stanny it's pretty simple when you think about it.
New LS, the typical customer is 50 years old, is able to afford a $35K to $40K car and doesn't want to shift (read these stats. somewhere).
Used LS, the typical customer is less than 35 years old, can afford so spend $20K - $25K and many of them still want to shift. A lot of them are also SHO owners who have worn out their SHO's and are trying to find a replacement.
With uses LS's hitting the market I can already see the change in the people posting on LLSOC. Most of the new members that just got a used LS are a lot younger than us core old farts who bought new '00 LS's.
I see what you're saying, but in a different vein. One of my colleagues is in the market for a "new" car. He makes a good wage, but the house isn't quite paid for, one of the kids is still a year from finishing college, but the current car is pretty well worn out. He's a car enthusiast, but has to stretch his dollar. He's considering a couple of sport sedans, even the LS, but only if he can find a manual transmission model...
"A lot of them are also SHO owners who have worn out their SHO's and are trying to find a replacement."
Man, good observation. I traded in a 94 SHO automatic (my first automatic car in 17 yrs) for my 00 LS V8 Sport. I think the LS was a great replacement, it added SST, and rear wheel drive, and I like it more than the SHO, which I also just loved. I can imagine that the manual tranny SHO enthusiasts are in a similar position to what I was, trying to find a replacement for an excellent performance sedan, and a used LS manual would allow you to do some tweaking with the $ saved. It was a hard job finding a car to replace the SHO with, it was a great ride, so I think you may have hit on something here.
Reneleblanc is correct -- you'll see the yellow "winding road" indicator flashing on the dash and, depending on the situation, may hear the low grinding sound coming from one or more wheels as the computer straightens out the yaw. Also, in low-traction situations like a steep uphill gravel driveway or ice patch, you'll also feel the engine power being reduced. This option is one of my favorites, and I use it at least once or twice a month (unintentionally sometimes...)
Yeah, I knew what he was implying, I just didn't understand why he was implying that. I don't recall anyone here saying the car was perfect.
I think the issue with used MTX's comes down to price. When you go from low $30's to low $20's or upper teens you increase the potential buyer pool exponentially. Of course this may be a regional affect and it may not be reflected in the Edmunds TMV or KBB estimates yet.
Thanks, Slunar. Interesting demographics on age versus income, new vs. used. I'm going to quiz my local Lincoln dealer and salespeople on their attitude toward used MTXes. Gee, if a manufacturer could just make a RWD Manual for 20-25k new, Civic Si sales would be in jepardy!
ok....i did the deal today. LSV8 SPORT LIST 38895.00. THIS IS WHAT I PAID...PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF IT IS FAIR!!! 499.00 MONTH(INCLUDES TAXES) 0 DOWN,O BANK FEE, O SECURITY THEY APPLIED A 3000 REBATE. 12,000 MILES A YEAR(.20 cents over) FORD MAKES FIRST PAYMENT
Comments
I really like this car, but can't think about buying it new. The resale value is terrible - I can get a 2001 V8 Sport for appx 26K.
Has the car held up to your expectations?
Any rattles, trim pieces breaking, etc.?
I was considering a 2000, but being its a first
year car, figured I'd get the 2001.
Thanks for any input.
Acenj
A minor correction to your post regarding the move away from manual transmissions. Agree with your analysis of why the LS lack of manual sales was somewhat self-imposed, however the impending death of the manual transmissions on BMW's M cars is incorrect.
Although the SMG II sales are about evenly split with the 6 speed in current M3's, the true manual is still predicted to be around for a while and is the definition of a "M" engineered car. The 2005 M5 is rumoured to have a 7-speed SMG, however no reports have mentioned the dropping of the standard manual.
Side note: Most tests actually have the six speed faster than the SMG II, if only by a hair and due to quicker launch control.
End of BMW stuff ;-)
And when I said it was faster, I was referring to the speed of the shifts, not 0-60. I'm aware of the launch issue which slows it down without the European 'launch assist' mode.
All clear...it will however be a shame if the true manual option continues to erode. Although the SMG-type trans are a far leap from traditional torque convertor automatics, they also a bit shy from the control and connection with a three pedal transmission. It also seems many of the M3 SMG cars are bought by those who are impressed by the technology itself, and virtually all who option it buy it sight unseen.
You also got to wonder if the lack of manual cars on some lots is directly related to the ability of the sales rep to drive a stick car.
I'm looking for nominal upfront payment and 15000/yr. I have access to the X-plan as well. Would something around $400-425/mo. be doable. I'm on a tight budget and that woould be my limit.
You have not provided enough information for me to provide you with accurate info, but I'll try to take a stab at it.
1. You did not say if there are any options on the LS V-6 sport that you must have.
2. You did not say where you live, nor does your profile list your state. In addition you did not say if your $400 - $425 per month budget would include sales and property taxes if they are applicable in your state.
3. I'm not an expert on X plan pricing, I know that it is close to dealer invoice, but I don't know what else the dealer gets to tack on such as the regional marketing charge, conveyance charge or any prep charges.
4. I also assume that you are talking about an auto trannie, not manual.
5. You did not say for how many years you wanted to lease the LS.
In any case a V-6 Sport, auto with NO options with regional marketing charge and conveyance charge plus an estimate for registration would have an invoice price of about $34,000. On top of that would be a $3,000 reabate that you would use to reduce the cap cost.
Figuring a 3 year lease at 15K mile / year and $0 down, should come to about $470 per month, assuming that the lease special with 0.5% interest is available where you live. (This does not include any taxes!)
If you put down $2,000 the monthly lease cost (again without any taxes) would be reduced to about $415 per month.
Since the special interest rate is only 0.5% it is most advantageous to put $0 down, unless you have to put down some up front money in order to get approved for the lease.
OK so that's ten grand in 2 years. What's a 2 year old BMW loss?
A 2002 525i with a discounted purchase price of $42,960 has an advertised 36 month lease for $502.16 per month, not including any taxes. However, the BMW 525i lease is with $7,000 down and is for only 10,000 miles per year.
Converting the 525i lease to $0 down and 15,000 miles per year it would come to approximately $789.66 per month.
That's $18,951.84 in 2 years or over 7 grand more than the larger LS over 24 months.
Even the much smaller 325i will run you $665 / month for 36 months @ $0 down and 15K miles / year according to other BMW adds.
Wasn't rgnmstr referring to resale value as opposed to total payments were made during a lease period?
If you want to analyze resale value I can do that too and the LS really doesn't look that bad. Yes BMW's maintain a much higher precentage of original cost in resale value, HOWEVER they cost a heck of a lot more than a LS in the first place so the actual depreciation loss in REAL DOLLARS is a lot closer than you might expect. Percent means nothing, its how many dollars you loose over your ownership period. On other interesting thing that I have found around here is that used BMW's from private parties are hard to come by, dealers seem to snap them up and then add in huge markups. This means that there is a very large difference in what a BWM dealer will give you in trade verses what they will attempt to resell your car for. You can go to the Kelly Blue Book website and compare trade in values to dealer resell values.
You are very correct that the real cost picture is not resale value alone.
On another note, much of the reason for dealers getting the majority of used vehicles is due to lease turn-ins and the fact that the dealer will then certify used cars (7yr/100K) which is the only real way to get an extended BMW factory warranty (especially handy on a car coming out of the initial 4 year waranty period and into the potential of expensive service costs).
Like other makes, BMW can make it financially appealing to turn the lease vehicle in (even early at times) to move into a newer model or next series up. That is the advantage of having a car line which has a clear path upward while maintaining the same (if expensive) heritage.
I wasn't responding to your post. I was replying to the guy who was bitching about the depreciation.
I think your number is probably in the ballpark. Right now I'm leasing a $20000 cap cost vehicle, no money down and 15000mi. I pay $303.mo. tax included. I figure if the cap. cost on the LS is around $31,000 then the payment should be in the $450-475 area with tax (roughly 50-55% higher than my present payment). Right now money is tight so I may just buy my vehicle off-lease (99 Galant) and wait another year to make a move. I expect my finances to improve in the next 12 months.
Still, it probably behooves me to at least checkout the lease deals and find out how desparate they are to move 2002's. Saw a good 40-50 2002 sports sitting at the dealer I visited (no v6's though).
I've seen the lease for the LS V8 (non-sport?) advertised on TV for about $380 with 800 down but that was for returning leasees. Wonder whether that deal might be expanded as the 2003's reach the showrooms. That vehicle has to have a cap cost similar to a V6 sport given the 3 grand premium for the V8.
Some people have had starting (or lack of starting) issues that were isolated to a specific cause. The remedy is quick and easy. Even when my cooling fan pump went out to lunch, I had a visible warning that something was wrong (it was IFR behind my car with white smoke) and I made it easily to my dealer. My only service issue is the lenght of time it takes to get parts. I assume (I know) that the longer the LS is in production, the easier parts will be to get.
47850 miles and still going strong!!
Mike
LLSOC Chapter Director
cayennered1: You can go to the Lincoln web site to get estimated lease payments. Click on "build my Lincoln" then "LS". Configure the LS the way you want and then click on "Finance". The Ford Credit link will come up with a fill in the blank menu that will automatically put in local incentives for your zip code. It also takes MSRP from the Build section and figures the residual. All you will have to do is put in what you think your actual discounted cap basis will be, select the length of the lease, mileage and finally add in any down payment you would put down. The web site will then give you the approximate monthly payment before taxes.
It's a great tool to see if the dealer is jerking you around or not. I was considering replacing my '00 with an '02. I went to 4 dealers. The first 3 wanted to know how much a month my present lease was and then tried to act like it was a big deal that they could get me in a new '02 for $25 a month less (They tried to avoid talkng about what the CAP cost really was). However, that was a lot more than the Ford Credit calculator came up with based on a cap cost of invoice + marketing charge + registration. The 4th dealer was stright up and gave me a price that was within a couple of bucks of what the Ford Credit calculator said which was $55 / month less than my '00 lease. (All 4 dealers had the identical car in stock other than color).
I pulled over-shut the car down-restarted it and everything went back to normal. Needle came to normal and message went away.
Any ideas as th what happen.
Anyway, this ad was for a '99 7 Series Sport. No idea on mileage, but like I said, their cars always look great. They're asking $33,870. That feels like some big time depreciation in $ terms.
I'm comfortable with $500 a month, and all my leased cars are in that payment range.
I've got 9 months to go on the lease. Does anyone know what the purchase price on this car might be if I buy it at the lease end? Do you think they will REALLY want me to take this orphan off their hands and give me a discount?
Does anyone know how the leftover MTXes are selling and at what price? Thanks
The 7 series BMW is the #1 most depreciating car in the US. Even the car mags make fun of that fact. Don't see why anyone would buy a 3 series when they could drive a 2 year old 7 series for the same money.
Stanny, there is no bargaining with Ford Credit. Your purchase price should be clearly stated on your lease paperwork, take it or leave it. Although despised when new by most Lincoln dealers, there appears to be VERY strong demand for V-6 MTX LS's in the used car market. Whomever ends up with your LS MTX will have no problem selling it, that is assuming you haven't abused it too badly.
How did you not notice it when you bought it?
Where do you get the info that MTX LSes are hot now on the used market? I checked both Edmunds used and Kelly Blue Book prices and an automatic equipped otherwise exactly like my getrag is worth $600-800 more.
Let's do an unscientific test of your theory -
Anybody want to buy my Autumn Red 2001 5-speed before my lease is up?
rbud... Even with no taxes $480 / month for 36 seems reasonable for a 39K MSRP LS. Again, you can go to lincolnvehicles.com and link to Ford credit, punch in all your pertanent info and see what monthly payment it comes back with. One of the quotes I got for a LS MSRP @ $38,865 was $469.60 / month before taxes $0 down, so if your $480 / month includes any taxes it's a great deal.
As for lease pricing. As a returning LS Red Carpet customer I applied the $1000 owner loyalty and the $3000 factory rebates as a reduction to the cap cost and am leasing for 36 months (only 35 payments Lincoln is making the first payment) $500 down with 15000 miles a year and including all taxes for $499/month. The list on the car was just over $40500. I thought this may help some of you shopping right now.
Where were these buyers when the car was new?
The only explanation I can imagine is that there is some fire sale mentality (CHEAP).
If the dealers thought these models had AIDS when new, why are they suddenly embracing a used and more potentially problematic used MTX?
Inquiring minds want to know.
I have occasionally had the advance track kick in, but I don't recall any "knocking sound" associated with it... at least nothing very noticeable. If you are really pushing it, you will also feel the effects of the advance track applying individual or diagonal brake patterns and, depending upon circumstances, it will also back off the timing or throttle. Mostly, it operates quite unobtrusively and keeps the car from kicking the rear end out or otherwise going where you don't want it to go.
I don't understand the comment about who sponsors this site.
New LS, the typical customer is 50 years old, is able to afford a $35K to $40K car and doesn't want to shift (read these stats. somewhere).
Used LS, the typical customer is less than 35 years old, can afford so spend $20K - $25K and many of them still want to shift. A lot of them are also SHO owners who have worn out their SHO's and are trying to find a replacement.
With uses LS's hitting the market I can already see the change in the people posting on LLSOC. Most of the new members that just got a used LS are a lot younger than us core old farts who bought new '00 LS's.
He's a car enthusiast, but has to stretch his dollar. He's considering a couple of sport sedans, even the LS, but only if he can find a manual transmission model...
Man, good observation. I traded in a 94 SHO automatic (my first automatic car in 17 yrs) for my 00 LS V8 Sport. I think the LS was a great replacement, it added SST, and rear wheel drive, and I like it more than the SHO, which I also just loved. I can imagine that the manual tranny SHO enthusiasts are in a similar position to what I was, trying to find a replacement for an excellent performance sedan, and a used LS manual would allow you to do some tweaking with the $ saved. It was a hard job finding a car to replace the SHO with, it was a great ride, so I think you may have hit on something here.
JS
LLSOC Charter Member
Also, in low-traction situations like a steep uphill gravel driveway or ice patch, you'll also feel the engine power being reduced.
This option is one of my favorites, and I use it at least once or twice a month (unintentionally sometimes...)
I think the issue with used MTX's comes down to price. When you go from low $30's to low $20's or upper teens you increase the potential buyer pool exponentially. Of course this may be a regional affect and it may not be reflected in the Edmunds TMV or KBB estimates yet.
I'm going to quiz my local Lincoln dealer and salespeople on their attitude toward used MTXes.
Gee, if a manufacturer could just make a RWD Manual for 20-25k new, Civic Si sales would be in jepardy!
499.00 MONTH(INCLUDES TAXES)
0 DOWN,O BANK FEE, O SECURITY
THEY APPLIED A 3000 REBATE.
12,000 MILES A YEAR(.20 cents over)
FORD MAKES FIRST PAYMENT