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With the help of Laura Hazebrouck, the Lincoln engineer who designed the PATS, we determined what the actual problem was.
Right behind the escutcheon plate around the ignition key, which can easily be pried off, there is a 4-conductor cable to a green connector. There was a problem with the connection between the green connector and the cable.
The connector has some little "teeth" that puncture the insulation on the cable to make contact. On my car, this connection was not tight enough, and as the insulation would expand due to temperature variations, it would make one of the connections open up, so the connector didn't actually have an electrical contact with the wire. This caused the Anti-Theft system to disable the starter, so the engine wouldn't even crank.
Another symptom that it was the PATS is that a minute or so after I would try to start the car, the red LED on the top of the dashboard would blink a code.
I could get the car started by prying off the escutcheon plate and using a pair of long-nose pliers to jerk that cable around until it would make contact again.
Once we knew what the problem was, the dealer simply replaced the cable unit on my car, and the problem never returned.
With regard to your wheel damage, there are wheels for sale on ebay. What part is scratched? If it's just the raised bead part of the rim, I've figured out a way to repair that. If that's the extent of your damage, email me at the address in my profile and I'll hook you up.
Since you're in NJ, now would be an opportune time for you to sign up for a trial membership in LLSOC. The NJ chapter is having a get-together on 10/27 at Peddler's Village in Luhaska. PA. There will be a Lincoln & Continental Owner's Club show that day. I'm planning to attend myself. This would be a great opportunity for you to meet fellow LS owners in your area. I guarantee that after meeting these fine folks, you will want to become a permanent member. Please consider joining us for what should be a fun day in the fall foliage.
Artie,
Charter Member LLSOC
NY Chapter Director
Hi Bohl,i have on my 00'LS8 about 25000M.
**THANK YOU ALL**
Is 36k a reasonable life expectanct for these tires? ( rotated every 10K)
When I replaced the original set, Firestone had the only commonly available tire. Still the case?
thanks in advance.
At the high end are the Michelin Pilot Sport All Seasons. About $212 each but probably the best ultra high performance all season tire out there. Extremely smooth and quiet. I have them and love them. If you're willing to spend the $$ they can't be beat.
At the low end are the Kumho 712s. Excellent grip (especially dry) and very good in the all season department. Best of all they're only $100 or so.
There are several others in between. 235/50R17 has about 8 tires in that size last time I checked. Go to tirerack.com and do a size search. You can also use 245/45R17 (says so on the sticker in the passenger rear door jam) which expands your choices by tenfold at least.
Don't expect anything else to last longer than the stones - they had a treadwear rating of 500 compared to 400 or less for most replacements. But the replacements will ride a lot better. Always a tradeoff.
Anyone else had this problem and how was it solved.
We had decided on the Avalon until we drove the LS. As we went to various dealers we discussed the cars we were thinking about. We listed the usual suspects because we were looking at everything. But as we mentioned the cars the sales people always seemed to focus on the Lincoln LS. The Toyota sales lady grilled us extensively about the LS. The VW/Audi salesman called me at home to say he had put together a bunch of info comparing his vehicles to the LS. Only the LS and yet we had mentioned all the upscale sedans.
I have to wonder if Ford really knows what they have here. The changes for 03 make me think maybe they do but I hope they educate their dealers. I think our local Lincoln dealer thought the LS was nice but they were there to sell Navigators and Aviators.
After 7 trips to the dealer, 2 with the regional Ford service rep. they never made any improvement in the vibration. Half shafts changed 2 times (different parts), tires balanced and rotated 5 times, drive shaft balanced, steering column damper spring changed, brake rotors turned and supposedly checked for balance, etc.
I also had 3 sets of tires on it and 2 sets of wheels. Had 2 different tire and wheel combinations balanced on the Hunter (at my own expense). Balancing on the Hunter improved the steering wheel shake but never did anything to reduce the original vibration.
I am about 70% certain that the source of the vibration was in the rear end. A couple of other LS owners reported a similar vibration that was solved via balancing bolts for holding the driveshaft to the rear end yoke. I tried suggesting this to my dealer, but they run a black hole service department that will not take suggestions from a customer. I wanted to try another dealer but Lincoln insisted that the selling dealer handle the problem.
I gave up, Lincoln gave up too telling me the car could not be fixed. Lincoln finally offered me some assistance to help me get out of my lease early if I replaced the LS with another Ford, Lincoln or Mercury product.
Unless your steering wheel vibrates or shimmies, don't waste your time balancing the tires, it's most likely not the problem. I doubt that my LS had any trauma as when I first test drove it there was 7 miles on the odometer and 28 miles when I picked it up with all 21 miles put on it by me before I took delivery.
I've tried to keep tabs on other LS owners with this vibration problem and it seems like it's 50-50 on getting it fixed.
Good, luck hope you get it solved and if you do let us know what the fix was. I loved my LS, except for the vibration & dealer service dept.
I know what you mean about Lincoln sales people. The first time I went to a dealer to test drive a LS, all the salesman wanted to do was bend my ear about the fully loaded Navigator he just sold.
After 10 or 15 minutes I finally turned around and walked away from him in mid sentance. When he came running after me I had to tell him I could care less about his Navigator sale I was there to drive a LS at which point he finally shut up and went to look for some keys.
I rent one every chance I get. I think they are incredible drivers.....
Not to mention, a sleeper, for the, um, spirited driver. This AM one of the supposedly hot new Nissan Maximas was tailgating me as I approached a tight, 270-degree, 25 mph interstate on ramp. I guess they're fast 0-60 but, boy, on a curve they get real small real fast in an LS's rear view mirror.:):) He passed me a couple miles down the road and gave me the "What IS that?!" look we know & love. Some fun.
Unfortunately, Lincoln dealers who don't really "get it" are one of the "crosses that we must bear". :-)
It's nice to see that you have your priorities in the right order... after all you can't take it with you.
Good luck,
Joe
Charter Member
Lincoln LS Owners Club
My salesman knew nothing about the car. At one point he poped the hood to show me the levels that are there for adjusting the headlights. He said they were for checking the 50/50 weight balance. In all my years I have never met a car salesman who knew anything about the product he was selling. Every question gets a response of "let me go check on that" Even Sears won't put a salesman in a commission dept. on the floor for the first 3 weeks until he's completed training. All a car salesman wants to do is sit the customer down and nail down a price. I think they believe 99% of the people that come thru the door have already made up their mind and that they don't have to "sell the car"
Due to the very poor customer service I received from Continental, I took all of them off the car and replaced them with Falken ZX502s, although in a 16" size, not the 17" that Ezaircon did. So far, I'm very pleased with them, as they're quieter that the Continentals, and their "turn-in" response is much sharper.
I doubt that they'd be good as an "all season" tire, as the tread isn't heavily siped, as other all season tires are. However, I have snow tires, so that's not an issue for me. I also had them balanced on a Hunter machine, as others have just mentioned, and the vibration is exactly "zero".
Lincoln apparently knows that there are some vibration issues with the '00-'02 LS. Several of the releases on the '03 LS specifically mention improvements in NVH (noise vibration & harsness). Improvements noted are a 20% stiffer unibody structure, new improved sound deadening and urathane vibration damper masses that are glued inside the doors to eliminate vibration in the outer door panels.
Lincoln has apparently decided to soften up the base LS (non-sport) to make the LS appeal more to the Lincoln Continental crowd. Although I did not have Conti tires there have been several negative posts on the Continentals. From the descriptions it sounds to me like the Conti's have really floppy sidewalls to make the ride softer. Some of the specific complaints were understeer, which the LS simply should not do and again is an indication of weak sidewalls.
For 16" tires I recommend Michelin Pilot Sport XGT-V4's. They have excellent turn in response, really track great in a straight line, are quiet and have unbelievable cornering grip. The only downside is that they are a little harsh. I suspect that this is due to stiff sidewalls which give the great turn in feel, straight tracking and help the cornering grip. They are driveable in the snow, but they are not real snow tires. IIRC the P215/60R 16" XGT-V4's are about $120 each on tirerack.com and they have great owner reviews on tirerack too. Their treadwear also seems resonably good, from mine I estimate that about 40K miles would be obtainable and I cornered real hard at every opportunity with those tires.
I bought my Falkens online, from Vulcan Tire for $54 + shipping. I doubt that they will perform as well as the Michelins. However, I've had a string of bad luck with road debris vs. tires lately, and I'm a little reluctant to spend big bucks for tires.
What is being done to service and replace this KNOWN DEFECT? Probably not much and the company is just buying time until warranties expire. LS owners beware!!!!! If you’re not using your windows you’re bound to be surprised at some point down the road (I’ve only used mine a dozen times). I will contact the BBB to file a complaint.
Your second paragraph, however, is full of false assumptions. What has been done is simple: The part has been redesigned, and the new part has been installed in new LSs as of January 1. There is a service bulletin which addresses the problem on cars built before this date; it calls for replacement of BOTH rear window regulators with the redesigned part. It has NOT been ignored and Lincoln HAS taken the proper action.
If you do ever find that PERFECT car that never breaks down, never needs anything replaced, and nothing wears out let us know what it is. That manufacturer will put everyone else out of business.
As for the poor design comment . . . your criticism is also levied against BMW and Mercedes, as they use the SAME DESIGN AND SUPPLIER for rear window regulators. The only difference in the early LS design was that a small plastic clip/retainer was used to secure the glass to the lift mechanism. Needless to say, the plastic is the culprit. It doesn't handle prolonged exposure to high temperatures and INACTIVITY too well, as the window/mechanism is under it's highest stress load when the window fully closed. Regular use seems to reduce the likelihood for failure, but it's probably inevitable that it will eventually fail.
Lincoln has long since stepped up to the plate to correct this problem. If one mechanism fails, dealers are directed to replace BOTH rear window mechanisms. See TSB#02-7-3. The replacement mechanisms are IDENTICAL in all aspects to those used by Mercedes-Benz and BMW where the plastic retainer has been replaced by a metal one. The part numbers for these mechanisms are 2W4Z-5427008-AA and 2W4Z-5427009-AA. My dealer tells me that Lincoln will continue to replace broken window mechanisms even after the warranty expires. It is not considered a recall item because it is not deemed a safety issue. The metal retainers were first introduced into the LS assembly line in January 2002. Hope this information helps you understand the circumstances a little better, though it's still a PITA to deal with
Do you know who the current president is?
So, all I can add is this story. A cop friend of mine has a Cadillac Deville. I don't know who the subcontractor is who makes their power window mechanisms, but his rear windows have both failed 7 times now. SEVEN TIMES! He finally had to take them apart himself and screw them into the up position making them inoperative, because the car is now out of warranty, and GM won't fix them anymore.
I'll tell him to file a complaint with the BBB. Obviously, ohm, you have a low tolerance for machinery. One failure, one fix? In an hour? What more do you want? You weren't walking!
http://www.detnews.com/2002/insiders/0210/16/-613990.htm
I am extremely familiar with my Lincoln service department! The first 16 months that I owned the vehicle, what can I say, It was a great ride!! Then starting in December 01, the first major service was a two week encounter to replace, Struts, bent bolts on the suspension, several window regulators, cracking leather seats and unusually loud, squealing brakes. So now we're 10 months into 2002 and 29,300 miles, the struts again, sway bars, upper/lower ball joints, tire rods, front/rear brakes (not warranty), $1000 (Pirelli's) (replaced the Firestones, not warranty). Now of these repairs have corrected the "popping" noises that come from my front end and has left the service department scratching theirs heads, amongst other things.
Is there anyone out there that would disagree with me about getting rid of this vehicle, "while the getting's good"?
Please give me some feed back soon!!
Mike, 2000 LS mtx, 38K miles, no complaints, finally broken in...
I have spoken with Lincoln and they have acknowledged that there are several Warranty issues (translated as defects with the front end) and they assured me that all repairs would be covered under warranty and they have been.
The popping and clacking noises have always been were very intermittent at first. They quickly become very frequent, whether turning a corner or just in normal operation (backing, parking etc.) I forgot to mention in my original posting, that the steering column was also replaced last month as well, in an effort to help them figure out where the popping was coming from. Since they had already done a considerable amount of work to correct the popping issue, they just starting replacing parts until the noise stopped or at least until they thought it had stopped. When I picked my car up two weeks ago, after they had it in for 1 -1/2 weeks, the popping was still there. It starts of very soft and infrequent and then becomes louder and more frequent.
If I abused the car and drove on roads that were meant for "off road" driving, then I could understand the problems, but that is not the case. I live in a middle class suburban area of town and those roads, as well as all other roads are kept in good condition and besides that, I take very good care of my car.
I guess that I have either run across that "Lemon" that everyone hopes they don't get or the technicians here just aren't trained correctly.
Further comments on this issue is appreciated.
Anyway, there have been issues with sway bar bushings causing odd noises. When you had the sway bars replaced, did they use new bushings?
Good luck!
As for the "bent" bolt, who knows!! They wouldn't elaborate on exactly which bolt it was, just that it was in the front end - go figure. Yes, they did replace the bushing ends as well. BUT THE NOISE REMAINS.
To 1lsbmw0, I have not secured the name of the Lincoln rep. for this area. However, the last time the car was in, I informed them then that, if this time in didn't fix the problems, that my next step was going to be, to contact the Lincoln Rep. Of course their eyes were wide open then and they all but ask me not to make that call. H-mmm, wonder what that's about??
At least when they have had the car in for repaits, I get a free rental, at their expense. I guess I will trade it off for a Toyota 4-runner and get on with my life.
2001 LS 8 Sport Owner with 34,000 trouble-free miles on original tires and brakes.
I have always been a Ford customer because they stand behind their products and have always done the right thing by me, not that I have had problems with the 11 Ford products that my wife and I have owned, but when we did, even if the car was out of warranty the dealer still made the repairs at no charge to me. I hope if this turns out to be a serious issue they will continue that trend, after all when you build over 7 million cars and trucks there are bound to be a few bad samples. I will keep you posted on our progress when I get the car back on Tuesday.
Guess what? I have and they aren't wrong. I've driven 4 of them and what Kelley states and Detroit News states is correct.
Stick to your Lexus.
We see many posts from people like me with practically no problems at all, and yet we see posts from a number of people who seem to get ALL the problems anyone has heard of, all collected in one single car!
I find it interesting that occasionally it seems some car comes off the assembly line with a bunch of problems. There is some strange probabilistic demon that seems to lurk there.
I hope you can get a satisfactory solution to your car's problems that doesn't leave you soured on the thought of American automobiles in general and Lincoln in particular.
"Most notably gone from the 2003 lineup is the manual transmission that was available only on the V-6 powered LS. Lincoln says the only people who wanted it were auto writers, and we don't buy cars"
"The 'take rate' was less than 1 percent, says Ford VP Chris Theodore."
"Ok, it was a slow-seller, but for the record, auto writers wanted a six-speed manual in the V-8 LS, with a horsepower bump and maybe some suspension tweaks to appeal to the speed freaks who lust after BMW M5s".
"Dream on"
"The LS does not sell in large enough volumes - certainly not compared with the Jaguar S-Type, which shares the same platform - to make a marketing case for a lot of different flavors. And Lincoln seems disinclined to go too far out on a limb since its misadventure with the renegade Blackwood pickup".
Two questions: When did Ford VP Chris Theodore get his lobotomy? Was it company-wide?
And since when did Jaguar S-Types outsell the Lincoln LS? At least in North American volume?
I bought a V-6 MTX. And I can't even write!
My other car is an '80 Triumph TR7 roadster. A few years ago it needed an engine, a 2 liter four that shares it's basic construction with the Saab 99/900 of the '70s & early '80s. An old magazine article suggested that the TR owner "slip in the turbocharged Saab engine." Intrigued, I investigated, even found a suitable donor. Same basic engine, but in the Saab it is rotated 180 degrees, putting the clutch in front. Just imagining what the radiator hoses would have to look like gave me a headache, and that was only the beginning. "Slip in", indeed. Ever since then, I've regarded the world of automobile journalism with suspicion.
First, Stan, the author didn't mean to imply that the Jag S-Type outsold the LS, he was merely pointing out that the overall sales volume of the LS wasn't so large that it could justify 11 or so different variants of the car that were offered in the '02 MY (compared with the S-Type sales volumes achieved with only 3 variants). The '03 MY will only have 4 different configurations/flavors to choose from.
Second, Scott, the "streamlining" comment refers to the same issue as the first. Lincoln Marketing wanted to reduce/streamline the overall number of configurations of the '03 LS. Apparently, according to Lincoln, too many choices only served to confuse the consumer and cost Lincoln too much to allow for that much customization.
At least that's how I understand the author. I'm not sure I agree with the lobotomy comment though. Like the author, I think the North American market would have taken to a V8 MTX combination much better than the V6 MTX, but Lincoln, I think, correctly points out that the V6 MTX sales volumes were way too low to justify offering in the '03 LS.
A lot of the changes are so subtle that they go unnoticed unless parked beside an earlier model.
The interior is another story. I wish this is how it was from the beginning. Much more useable room and a cleaner overall look.
Of course what doesn't show (major suspension rework and more power) don't hurt either.
They had to replaces the components on the side of which the suspension where the issue was. Took 2 months for them to figure it out and tore my car apart. I still love my car though.
They replaced the links and the bushings on that side of the car as well as the whole sway bar. If you would like more info I can look it up and let you know exactly what they replaced.
Regards,
airwolf1000