I remember when I bought my 92 Gold Continental. Had it 2 weeks, and somebody shot acid along the passenger side from the B pillar back. The car never matched the rest of its life. It was a real bummer.......
If your starter won't even crank, you might have the problem I had with the PATS (Passive AntiTheft System) cable on my 2000 LS8.
With the help of Laura Hazebrouck, the Lincoln engineer who designed the PATS, we determined what the actual problem was.
Right behind the escutcheon plate around the ignition key, which can easily be pried off, there is a 4-conductor cable to a green connector. There was a problem with the connection between the green connector and the cable.
The connector has some little "teeth" that puncture the insulation on the cable to make contact. On my car, this connection was not tight enough, and as the insulation would expand due to temperature variations, it would make one of the connections open up, so the connector didn't actually have an electrical contact with the wire. This caused the Anti-Theft system to disable the starter, so the engine wouldn't even crank.
Another symptom that it was the PATS is that a minute or so after I would try to start the car, the red LED on the top of the dashboard would blink a code.
I could get the car started by prying off the escutcheon plate and using a pair of long-nose pliers to jerk that cable around until it would make contact again.
Once we knew what the problem was, the dealer simply replaced the cable unit on my car, and the problem never returned.
Sorry to hear your woes. Was the tow truck driver who scratched your car a result of a call to Lincoln Roadside Assistance? If so, you should contact the Lincoln Customer Assistance Center and complain. Lincoln should repair the damage.
With regard to your wheel damage, there are wheels for sale on ebay. What part is scratched? If it's just the raised bead part of the rim, I've figured out a way to repair that. If that's the extent of your damage, email me at the address in my profile and I'll hook you up.
Since you're in NJ, now would be an opportune time for you to sign up for a trial membership in LLSOC. The NJ chapter is having a get-together on 10/27 at Peddler's Village in Luhaska. PA. There will be a Lincoln & Continental Owner's Club show that day. I'm planning to attend myself. This would be a great opportunity for you to meet fellow LS owners in your area. I guarantee that after meeting these fine folks, you will want to become a permanent member. Please consider joining us for what should be a fun day in the fall foliage.
36k is actually quite good for the stones. Some folks only got 25K - depends a lot on road surfaces and driving style.
At the high end are the Michelin Pilot Sport All Seasons. About $212 each but probably the best ultra high performance all season tire out there. Extremely smooth and quiet. I have them and love them. If you're willing to spend the $$ they can't be beat.
At the low end are the Kumho 712s. Excellent grip (especially dry) and very good in the all season department. Best of all they're only $100 or so.
There are several others in between. 235/50R17 has about 8 tires in that size last time I checked. Go to tirerack.com and do a size search. You can also use 245/45R17 (says so on the sticker in the passenger rear door jam) which expands your choices by tenfold at least.
Don't expect anything else to last longer than the stones - they had a treadwear rating of 500 compared to 400 or less for most replacements. But the replacements will ride a lot better. Always a tradeoff.
My 02 LS V8 has a high speed vibration beginning about 65. Dealer has balanced, Discount has balanced and matched them to the wheel and two of the Bridgestones were replaced, but the vibration continues. My 02 Silverado with Bridgestones is smooth as glass and so should the LS. Anyone else had this problem and how was it solved.
Hunter makes a special balancer that analyzes the problem much better than a standard tire balancer called the GSP-9700. Look at http://www.hunter.com/pub/product/product.htm. I would have your vehicle checked on one of these machines. Hunter has a list of who has one by zip code. Many dealers have them.
I had Yokohama AVS dBs in 245/45/17. They were very good for the first 10K or so, then they started feeling slippery. I had to replace them about 5K early due to a road hazard, but even then, they lasted only ~25K. They had a wear rating of 320. They also became very noisy. I replaced them with 255/45/17 Falken ZE-502s. They are much quieter than the Yokos, and seem, so far, to grip better. I have NO idea about rain as here in So Cal we hardly ever get rain! Only ~3" last year! Anyway, they were $635 out the door. If you add 255/45 to your search, you will get even more options.
I agree with the Hunter analysis, but if it comes back negative, have the driveline checked. May be out of true due to trauma of some kind. I had this problem in a T-Bird years ago.
Well we had to choose between a decent nursing home with an unlimited supply of prescription drugs when we are older or a Lincoln LS. It's Silver Birch!
We had decided on the Avalon until we drove the LS. As we went to various dealers we discussed the cars we were thinking about. We listed the usual suspects because we were looking at everything. But as we mentioned the cars the sales people always seemed to focus on the Lincoln LS. The Toyota sales lady grilled us extensively about the LS. The VW/Audi salesman called me at home to say he had put together a bunch of info comparing his vehicles to the LS. Only the LS and yet we had mentioned all the upscale sedans.
I have to wonder if Ford really knows what they have here. The changes for 03 make me think maybe they do but I hope they educate their dealers. I think our local Lincoln dealer thought the LS was nice but they were there to sell Navigators and Aviators.
donaldm1L: I had an '00 LS V-8 (non sport) that had a vibration like you describe. It peaked at 71 MPH but could be felt from 65 to 80. I first noticed the vibration at about 500 miles on the odometer and it seemed to gradually get worse until I turned it in at 32K. It also seemed worse on long trips and especially in hot weather.
After 7 trips to the dealer, 2 with the regional Ford service rep. they never made any improvement in the vibration. Half shafts changed 2 times (different parts), tires balanced and rotated 5 times, drive shaft balanced, steering column damper spring changed, brake rotors turned and supposedly checked for balance, etc.
I also had 3 sets of tires on it and 2 sets of wheels. Had 2 different tire and wheel combinations balanced on the Hunter (at my own expense). Balancing on the Hunter improved the steering wheel shake but never did anything to reduce the original vibration.
I am about 70% certain that the source of the vibration was in the rear end. A couple of other LS owners reported a similar vibration that was solved via balancing bolts for holding the driveshaft to the rear end yoke. I tried suggesting this to my dealer, but they run a black hole service department that will not take suggestions from a customer. I wanted to try another dealer but Lincoln insisted that the selling dealer handle the problem.
I gave up, Lincoln gave up too telling me the car could not be fixed. Lincoln finally offered me some assistance to help me get out of my lease early if I replaced the LS with another Ford, Lincoln or Mercury product.
Unless your steering wheel vibrates or shimmies, don't waste your time balancing the tires, it's most likely not the problem. I doubt that my LS had any trauma as when I first test drove it there was 7 miles on the odometer and 28 miles when I picked it up with all 21 miles put on it by me before I took delivery.
I've tried to keep tabs on other LS owners with this vibration problem and it seems like it's 50-50 on getting it fixed.
Good, luck hope you get it solved and if you do let us know what the fix was. I loved my LS, except for the vibration & dealer service dept.
I HATE dealers like that! The last Chevy I owned was a 97 Blazer, that vibrated horribly over 60 MPH> The dealer flatly told me, "this car isn't designed to go over 60MPH, sir". And that was that.
herman9: Congratulations on you new LS. Spend your money now while you can enjoy it. I figure that by the time I'm 85 I won't be able to tell low grade dog food from 5 star cooking.
I know what you mean about Lincoln sales people. The first time I went to a dealer to test drive a LS, all the salesman wanted to do was bend my ear about the fully loaded Navigator he just sold.
After 10 or 15 minutes I finally turned around and walked away from him in mid sentance. When he came running after me I had to tell him I could care less about his Navigator sale I was there to drive a LS at which point he finally shut up and went to look for some keys.
I was best friends with my Lincoln Dealer owner for the past 10 years. When the LS came out, he didn't like it, thought it was understyled. But eventually, he drove them personally. They didn't sell all that well at first, but the momentum has really picked up this past year. Now, I hear it's the hottest selling Lincoln, and in good numbers. So, I think lots of the salespeople and dealers are still behind the demand curve, not being a hot seller at first, they aren't excited about the car. But it's clear from the boards, that the car has finally begun to get the acclaim it deserves.
I rent one every chance I get. I think they are incredible drivers.....
Congratulations on a wise decision. Assuming, of course, that Silver Birch isn't the name of a nursing home.:) It is frustrating how under-appreciated this car seems to be, even by the people in business to sell it. The flip side is we get to drive a fairly unique car.
Not to mention, a sleeper, for the, um, spirited driver. This AM one of the supposedly hot new Nissan Maximas was tailgating me as I approached a tight, 270-degree, 25 mph interstate on ramp. I guess they're fast 0-60 but, boy, on a curve they get real small real fast in an LS's rear view mirror.:):) He passed me a couple miles down the road and gave me the "What IS that?!" look we know & love. Some fun.
<<,I know what you mean about Lincoln sales people. The first time I went to a dealer to test drive a LS, all the salesman wanted to do was bend my ear about the fully loaded Navigator he just sold.>>>>>
My salesman knew nothing about the car. At one point he poped the hood to show me the levels that are there for adjusting the headlights. He said they were for checking the 50/50 weight balance. In all my years I have never met a car salesman who knew anything about the product he was selling. Every question gets a response of "let me go check on that" Even Sears won't put a salesman in a commission dept. on the floor for the first 3 weeks until he's completed training. All a car salesman wants to do is sit the customer down and nail down a price. I think they believe 99% of the people that come thru the door have already made up their mind and that they don't have to "sell the car"
I had a set of Continental CH95s on my 2000 LS, however I had a belt shift or break while on vacation a couple of months back. Due to the very poor customer service I received from Continental, I took all of them off the car and replaced them with Falken ZX502s, although in a 16" size, not the 17" that Ezaircon did. So far, I'm very pleased with them, as they're quieter that the Continentals, and their "turn-in" response is much sharper. I doubt that they'd be good as an "all season" tire, as the tread isn't heavily siped, as other all season tires are. However, I have snow tires, so that's not an issue for me. I also had them balanced on a Hunter machine, as others have just mentioned, and the vibration is exactly "zero".
One more note on the vibration. A couple of LS owners with a similar highway speed vibration reported that attaching weights to the exhaust system cured their vibration. Since my vibration felt like an excited resonance it is possible that the exhaust system was vibrating. IIRC the weights were welded on just after the exhaust resonators.
Lincoln apparently knows that there are some vibration issues with the '00-'02 LS. Several of the releases on the '03 LS specifically mention improvements in NVH (noise vibration & harsness). Improvements noted are a 20% stiffer unibody structure, new improved sound deadening and urathane vibration damper masses that are glued inside the doors to eliminate vibration in the outer door panels.
Lincoln has apparently decided to soften up the base LS (non-sport) to make the LS appeal more to the Lincoln Continental crowd. Although I did not have Conti tires there have been several negative posts on the Continentals. From the descriptions it sounds to me like the Conti's have really floppy sidewalls to make the ride softer. Some of the specific complaints were understeer, which the LS simply should not do and again is an indication of weak sidewalls.
For 16" tires I recommend Michelin Pilot Sport XGT-V4's. They have excellent turn in response, really track great in a straight line, are quiet and have unbelievable cornering grip. The only downside is that they are a little harsh. I suspect that this is due to stiff sidewalls which give the great turn in feel, straight tracking and help the cornering grip. They are driveable in the snow, but they are not real snow tires. IIRC the P215/60R 16" XGT-V4's are about $120 each on tirerack.com and they have great owner reviews on tirerack too. Their treadwear also seems resonably good, from mine I estimate that about 40K miles would be obtainable and I cornered real hard at every opportunity with those tires.
Yes, it's true, that I wasn't really impressed by the Contis, however because Tire Rack at one time sold them for $44, they were a good summertime bargain. I bought my Falkens online, from Vulcan Tire for $54 + shipping. I doubt that they will perform as well as the Michelins. However, I've had a string of bad luck with road debris vs. tires lately, and I'm a little reluctant to spend big bucks for tires.
(2002 LS, owned for 11 months). Before buying my vehicle, I read messages on rear power window problems but decided to buy anyway since some messages spoke of future fixes/recall. My story: used the left rear window and then it wouldn't go up or down. Since I was on the road (8 hrs from home) I took the door apart to take a look and see if I could get the window to close. VERY POOR DESIGN! Cable had come off the pulley assembly and wrapped itself around the motor/regulator and could not be unwound. Fortunately, it wasn't raining, although the temp was 45 degs, and at 70mph, it was a very noisy and uncomfortable ride. I was pissed! A car of this caliber shouldn't be of such poor design! Luckily, I found a dealership 2 hours later and they fixed the window in a little over an hour. How “fortunate” that they had the part on hand... Hmm?
What is being done to service and replace this KNOWN DEFECT? Probably not much and the company is just buying time until warranties expire. LS owners beware!!!!! If you’re not using your windows you’re bound to be surprised at some point down the road (I’ve only used mine a dozen times). I will contact the BBB to file a complaint.
It is unfortunate that you had a problem with your window mechanism. This is a known problem with a supplier assembly--also used by BMW and Mercedes, incidentally--and has been the single most prevalent problem with the LS.
Your second paragraph, however, is full of false assumptions. What has been done is simple: The part has been redesigned, and the new part has been installed in new LSs as of January 1. There is a service bulletin which addresses the problem on cars built before this date; it calls for replacement of BOTH rear window regulators with the redesigned part. It has NOT been ignored and Lincoln HAS taken the proper action.
If you truly have read the posts about the window regulators then you already knew there was a potential problem and also knew "[w]hat is being done to service and replace this KNOWN DEFECT." That is why the dealer had the part in stock. It seems strange to me that you complain about the part being in stock, would you really have been happier if it hadn't? As for contacting the BBB, you may file a complaint but after you tell them your problem was solved on the first try, how do you intend to advance a complaint? You have admitted the problem was solved. What more do you expect them to do?
If you do ever find that PERFECT car that never breaks down, never needs anything replaced, and nothing wears out let us know what it is. That manufacturer will put everyone else out of business.
Ohm, I'm glad your window failure wasn't further complicated by inclement weather; it's unfortunate that so many of us have had to endure the faulty rear window regulator. Mine also failed, just as I was entering a public parking garage before a baseball game. I lucked out and no one disturbed my car or helped themselves to my unsecured car during the game, but nonetheless, I felt uneasy about leaving my car that way.
As for the poor design comment . . . your criticism is also levied against BMW and Mercedes, as they use the SAME DESIGN AND SUPPLIER for rear window regulators. The only difference in the early LS design was that a small plastic clip/retainer was used to secure the glass to the lift mechanism. Needless to say, the plastic is the culprit. It doesn't handle prolonged exposure to high temperatures and INACTIVITY too well, as the window/mechanism is under it's highest stress load when the window fully closed. Regular use seems to reduce the likelihood for failure, but it's probably inevitable that it will eventually fail.
Lincoln has long since stepped up to the plate to correct this problem. If one mechanism fails, dealers are directed to replace BOTH rear window mechanisms. See TSB#02-7-3. The replacement mechanisms are IDENTICAL in all aspects to those used by Mercedes-Benz and BMW where the plastic retainer has been replaced by a metal one. The part numbers for these mechanisms are 2W4Z-5427008-AA and 2W4Z-5427009-AA. My dealer tells me that Lincoln will continue to replace broken window mechanisms even after the warranty expires. It is not considered a recall item because it is not deemed a safety issue. The metal retainers were first introduced into the LS assembly line in January 2002. Hope this information helps you understand the circumstances a little better, though it's still a PITA to deal with
<<<<<What is being done to service and replace this KNOWN DEFECT? Probably not much and the company is just buying time until warranties expire. LS owners beware!!!!! If you’re not using your windows you’re bound to be surprised at some point down the road (I’ve only used mine a dozen times). I will contact the BBB to file a complaint. >>>>>>>>
Thanks for all responses regarding vibration on my 02 LS. The special Hunter Balancer was used, but still have the vibration in the steering wheel, not overall. Perhaps an on the car spin will detect another component with balance problems. I doubt that it is the drive shaft as I don't feel it in the seat, only the steering wheel. It's particularly noticable on smooth blacktop.
JohnnyLinc, keyrow, lolaj42 & rgnmstr - couldn't have said it better myself! And ohm777, the BBB? Wow, I'll bet Billy Clay is quivering now! Sorry, that was cold.
So, all I can add is this story. A cop friend of mine has a Cadillac Deville. I don't know who the subcontractor is who makes their power window mechanisms, but his rear windows have both failed 7 times now. SEVEN TIMES! He finally had to take them apart himself and screw them into the up position making them inoperative, because the car is now out of warranty, and GM won't fix them anymore.
I'll tell him to file a complaint with the BBB. Obviously, ohm, you have a low tolerance for machinery. One failure, one fix? In an hour? What more do you want? You weren't walking!
"Here at the challenging Mid-Ohio circuit, Ford Motor Co.'s traditional luxury division proved they do make a car that will run with the best of its class. In fact, the rear-wheel drive Lincoln LS, re-fettled for 2003, turned out to be a more entertaining track machine than BMW's vaunted Five Series and the recently launched CTS, Cadillac's entry in the sporty sedan segment. "
KBB also did a review and they were overwhelmingly positive in their review. I doubt Edmunds will let me post a link to their competitor so I won't attempt it. But the review is available.
I purchased my LS new in August of 2000. So that I don't completely reiterate all previous gripes about window regulators and vibrations/noises of this vehicle, I would like to throw the following information out, to all of you. I haven't read all of the postings about this vehicle, so forgive me if any of the following points have already been made and noted.
I am extremely familiar with my Lincoln service department! The first 16 months that I owned the vehicle, what can I say, It was a great ride!! Then starting in December 01, the first major service was a two week encounter to replace, Struts, bent bolts on the suspension, several window regulators, cracking leather seats and unusually loud, squealing brakes. So now we're 10 months into 2002 and 29,300 miles, the struts again, sway bars, upper/lower ball joints, tire rods, front/rear brakes (not warranty), $1000 (Pirelli's) (replaced the Firestones, not warranty). Now of these repairs have corrected the "popping" noises that come from my front end and has left the service department scratching theirs heads, amongst other things.
Is there anyone out there that would disagree with me about getting rid of this vehicle, "while the getting's good"?
Where did you find Struts on your LS? It sounds like you live or drive on very rough roads, if the front end has had to be rebuilt twice already. Bent bolts? Goodness, what has that car been through?
Mike, 2000 LS mtx, 38K miles, no complaints, finally broken in...
Thanks for replying leadfoot4 and mtnh. As I mentioned the vehicle was bought new and I live in West Texas. The roads are well maintained and all my driving is on paved roads, with only a minimal of highway driving. Since I'm the only one that drives the vehicle, I can say there has not been any "off road" driving conditions (ha! ha!) My reference to "struts", was the service ticket (mechanics reference), when I probably should have said "shocks". Anyway, they refer to them as struts, so I did too!
I have spoken with Lincoln and they have acknowledged that there are several Warranty issues (translated as defects with the front end) and they assured me that all repairs would be covered under warranty and they have been.
The popping and clacking noises have always been were very intermittent at first. They quickly become very frequent, whether turning a corner or just in normal operation (backing, parking etc.) I forgot to mention in my original posting, that the steering column was also replaced last month as well, in an effort to help them figure out where the popping was coming from. Since they had already done a considerable amount of work to correct the popping issue, they just starting replacing parts until the noise stopped or at least until they thought it had stopped. When I picked my car up two weeks ago, after they had it in for 1 -1/2 weeks, the popping was still there. It starts of very soft and infrequent and then becomes louder and more frequent.
If I abused the car and drove on roads that were meant for "off road" driving, then I could understand the problems, but that is not the case. I live in a middle class suburban area of town and those roads, as well as all other roads are kept in good condition and besides that, I take very good care of my car.
I guess that I have either run across that "Lemon" that everyone hopes they don't get or the technicians here just aren't trained correctly.
Sounds like you have a valid reason to use the Texas Lemon Law for your vehicle if the service dept. can't figure out what's going on. Has your dealer had the regional service rep. out to check the car? What did they say?
Sorry to hear of your woes. It certainly seems unusal for a car that hasn't been abused to require so much front-end work. I have 34K on my 2000 and the front-end is as tight as new. From what you've described, it sounds like the roads in TX are better than what we have here in the northeast. I'm sure you don't have the freeze-thaw cycles that wreak havoc with the roads here. I can't fathom what would bend bolts in the front end other than a severe impact. BTW-which bolts were bent?
Anyway, there have been issues with sway bar bushings causing odd noises. When you had the sway bars replaced, did they use new bushings?
The roads here where I live are pretty good. I can say that they are a lot better than the roads in Houston, which is where I lived all my life, prior to moving here 10 years ago. As for the weather, last winter when it snowed, I couldn't even get my car out of the driveway, due to the snow. When it does snow it melts off within one day. So, now it's the middle of October and we haven't even had one a cold snap, yet!
As for the "bent" bolt, who knows!! They wouldn't elaborate on exactly which bolt it was, just that it was in the front end - go figure. Yes, they did replace the bushing ends as well. BUT THE NOISE REMAINS.
To 1lsbmw0, I have not secured the name of the Lincoln rep. for this area. However, the last time the car was in, I informed them then that, if this time in didn't fix the problems, that my next step was going to be, to contact the Lincoln Rep. Of course their eyes were wide open then and they all but ask me not to make that call. H-mmm, wonder what that's about??
At least when they have had the car in for repaits, I get a free rental, at their expense. I guess I will trade it off for a Toyota 4-runner and get on with my life.
Sounds like you have some issues with your LS. However, brakes and new tires after 29,000 miles is within reason and are WEAR ITEMS. To lump them in with other issues is just silly. It sounds like you just want an SUV and are trying to rationalize trading. Fine, go and be happy.
2001 LS 8 Sport Owner with 34,000 trouble-free miles on original tires and brakes.
Thought I'd update everyone, and once again thank those who helped by answering my questions. I'm the guy who couldn't envision going through another Canadian winter with the OEM Bridgestone donuts on my 45,000km 2001 LSV8. To make a long story short, I went with 245/45ZR17 Michelin Pilot Sport A/S tires. Wasn't brave enough to go with the 255's - lots of highway driving and a little concerned about running them with lower pressure to keep the wear pattern even. Anyways, haven't pushed the car too hard yet as I want to get familiar with road feel, etc. first. What I can tell you is that the steering wheel vibration, which was there in varying degrees since the car was new, despite major efforts from my service department, is now at long last gone!! Yeah!! The car feels like it is on rails, the ride is not any harsher, and it feels even more firmly planted on the road. The noise over tar strips, expansion joints, etc. is definitely louder and sharper, but not offensively so. Now all I'm waiting for is some poor sucker to try and run with me on some back road twisty bits, or attempt to keep anywhere near me on an on/off ramp! That is, as long as I don't give myself a nose bleed from the g-force :-)
I am on my second LS. The first was a 2000 V6 sport that was trouble free up until the date the new one arrived (43000 miles and still had the original brakes). No rattles, window problems suspension issues, the car was virtually trouble free. Now the 2002 V8 sport is making a popping/banging noise from the front and rear of the car depending on the driving situation. The car was serviced today and the service writer went for a ride with me and clearly heard the noise. By the days end the service writer called and asked if they could keep the car until Monday as they hadn't resolved the issue yet. I hope the transalation to that is not that it is a serious problem but rather they simply ran out of time or are waiting on some parts.
I have always been a Ford customer because they stand behind their products and have always done the right thing by me, not that I have had problems with the 11 Ford products that my wife and I have owned, but when we did, even if the car was out of warranty the dealer still made the repairs at no charge to me. I hope if this turns out to be a serious issue they will continue that trend, after all when you build over 7 million cars and trucks there are bound to be a few bad samples. I will keep you posted on our progress when I get the car back on Tuesday.
I found the Pilot Sport A/S a little too soft at 30 psi so I raised them up to 32 and that seems to be just right for good cornering while still maintaining very good ride quality. You may want to experiement a little. Mine are 235/50R17 so yours may be a little different.
The Kelley "review" of the '03 LS is not so much a review as an ad. Completely uncritical, raves from the getgo. Not a serious evaluation, a real puff piece.
I'm assuming you've driven a 2003 LS? So how did you base your total lack of evidence that the Kelley review was a total puff piece. Oh, I'm sorry that's right you haven't driven a 2003 LS yet so you are clueless about whether they were correct in their review.
Guess what? I have and they aren't wrong. I've driven 4 of them and what Kelley states and Detroit News states is correct.
I'm sorry you have had so many problems with your LS. I have a 2000 LS/8 Sport, built in December, 1999, and have over 34,000 miles on it. I had one problem with a bad connector on the Passive Anti-Theft System. Other than that, the car has been perfect. No rattles, no pops, no squeaks, no deterioration of the leather seats, no broken window regulators (yet), no bad paint, no problems with buzz in the speakers, no fogging headlights.
We see many posts from people like me with practically no problems at all, and yet we see posts from a number of people who seem to get ALL the problems anyone has heard of, all collected in one single car!
I find it interesting that occasionally it seems some car comes off the assembly line with a bunch of problems. There is some strange probabilistic demon that seems to lurk there.
I hope you can get a satisfactory solution to your car's problems that doesn't leave you soured on the thought of American automobiles in general and Lincoln in particular.
Article in San Diego Union "Wheels" section today: "Lincoln streamlines midsize LS" "Most notably gone from the 2003 lineup is the manual transmission that was available only on the V-6 powered LS. Lincoln says the only people who wanted it were auto writers, and we don't buy cars" "The 'take rate' was less than 1 percent, says Ford VP Chris Theodore." "Ok, it was a slow-seller, but for the record, auto writers wanted a six-speed manual in the V-8 LS, with a horsepower bump and maybe some suspension tweaks to appeal to the speed freaks who lust after BMW M5s". "Dream on" "The LS does not sell in large enough volumes - certainly not compared with the Jaguar S-Type, which shares the same platform - to make a marketing case for a lot of different flavors. And Lincoln seems disinclined to go too far out on a limb since its misadventure with the renegade Blackwood pickup".
Two questions: When did Ford VP Chris Theodore get his lobotomy? Was it company-wide?
And since when did Jaguar S-Types outsell the Lincoln LS? At least in North American volume?
I'm still trying to figure that one out, Stan. They removed the small grooves that ran across the front & rear bumpers on the '00-02. Is that "streamlining"?
My other car is an '80 Triumph TR7 roadster. A few years ago it needed an engine, a 2 liter four that shares it's basic construction with the Saab 99/900 of the '70s & early '80s. An old magazine article suggested that the TR owner "slip in the turbocharged Saab engine." Intrigued, I investigated, even found a suitable donor. Same basic engine, but in the Saab it is rotated 180 degrees, putting the clutch in front. Just imagining what the radiator hoses would have to look like gave me a headache, and that was only the beginning. "Slip in", indeed. Ever since then, I've regarded the world of automobile journalism with suspicion.
While the article could have been clearer, I think both Stannt1 and Scottc8 have mis-understood the author's points that you have taken exception with.
First, Stan, the author didn't mean to imply that the Jag S-Type outsold the LS, he was merely pointing out that the overall sales volume of the LS wasn't so large that it could justify 11 or so different variants of the car that were offered in the '02 MY (compared with the S-Type sales volumes achieved with only 3 variants). The '03 MY will only have 4 different configurations/flavors to choose from.
Second, Scott, the "streamlining" comment refers to the same issue as the first. Lincoln Marketing wanted to reduce/streamline the overall number of configurations of the '03 LS. Apparently, according to Lincoln, too many choices only served to confuse the consumer and cost Lincoln too much to allow for that much customization.
At least that's how I understand the author. I'm not sure I agree with the lobotomy comment though. Like the author, I think the North American market would have taken to a V8 MTX combination much better than the V6 MTX, but Lincoln, I think, correctly points out that the V6 MTX sales volumes were way too low to justify offering in the '03 LS.
I had a chance to see the 03 and the spec sheets this weekend. I agree that 11 or so variants led to confusion. I believe there a 3 or 4 max for 03. A lot of the changes are so subtle that they go unnoticed unless parked beside an earlier model. The interior is another story. I wish this is how it was from the beginning. Much more useable room and a cleaner overall look. Of course what doesn't show (major suspension rework and more power) don't hurt either.
Sounds like you have the front-end popping when turning issue I had in January of this year. They had to replaces the components on the side of which the suspension where the issue was. Took 2 months for them to figure it out and tore my car apart. I still love my car though.
They replaced the links and the bushings on that side of the car as well as the whole sway bar. If you would like more info I can look it up and let you know exactly what they replaced.
Comments
With the help of Laura Hazebrouck, the Lincoln engineer who designed the PATS, we determined what the actual problem was.
Right behind the escutcheon plate around the ignition key, which can easily be pried off, there is a 4-conductor cable to a green connector. There was a problem with the connection between the green connector and the cable.
The connector has some little "teeth" that puncture the insulation on the cable to make contact. On my car, this connection was not tight enough, and as the insulation would expand due to temperature variations, it would make one of the connections open up, so the connector didn't actually have an electrical contact with the wire. This caused the Anti-Theft system to disable the starter, so the engine wouldn't even crank.
Another symptom that it was the PATS is that a minute or so after I would try to start the car, the red LED on the top of the dashboard would blink a code.
I could get the car started by prying off the escutcheon plate and using a pair of long-nose pliers to jerk that cable around until it would make contact again.
Once we knew what the problem was, the dealer simply replaced the cable unit on my car, and the problem never returned.
With regard to your wheel damage, there are wheels for sale on ebay. What part is scratched? If it's just the raised bead part of the rim, I've figured out a way to repair that. If that's the extent of your damage, email me at the address in my profile and I'll hook you up.
Since you're in NJ, now would be an opportune time for you to sign up for a trial membership in LLSOC. The NJ chapter is having a get-together on 10/27 at Peddler's Village in Luhaska. PA. There will be a Lincoln & Continental Owner's Club show that day. I'm planning to attend myself. This would be a great opportunity for you to meet fellow LS owners in your area. I guarantee that after meeting these fine folks, you will want to become a permanent member. Please consider joining us for what should be a fun day in the fall foliage.
Artie,
Charter Member LLSOC
NY Chapter Director
Hi Bohl,i have on my 00'LS8 about 25000M.
**THANK YOU ALL**
Is 36k a reasonable life expectanct for these tires? ( rotated every 10K)
When I replaced the original set, Firestone had the only commonly available tire. Still the case?
thanks in advance.
At the high end are the Michelin Pilot Sport All Seasons. About $212 each but probably the best ultra high performance all season tire out there. Extremely smooth and quiet. I have them and love them. If you're willing to spend the $$ they can't be beat.
At the low end are the Kumho 712s. Excellent grip (especially dry) and very good in the all season department. Best of all they're only $100 or so.
There are several others in between. 235/50R17 has about 8 tires in that size last time I checked. Go to tirerack.com and do a size search. You can also use 245/45R17 (says so on the sticker in the passenger rear door jam) which expands your choices by tenfold at least.
Don't expect anything else to last longer than the stones - they had a treadwear rating of 500 compared to 400 or less for most replacements. But the replacements will ride a lot better. Always a tradeoff.
Anyone else had this problem and how was it solved.
We had decided on the Avalon until we drove the LS. As we went to various dealers we discussed the cars we were thinking about. We listed the usual suspects because we were looking at everything. But as we mentioned the cars the sales people always seemed to focus on the Lincoln LS. The Toyota sales lady grilled us extensively about the LS. The VW/Audi salesman called me at home to say he had put together a bunch of info comparing his vehicles to the LS. Only the LS and yet we had mentioned all the upscale sedans.
I have to wonder if Ford really knows what they have here. The changes for 03 make me think maybe they do but I hope they educate their dealers. I think our local Lincoln dealer thought the LS was nice but they were there to sell Navigators and Aviators.
After 7 trips to the dealer, 2 with the regional Ford service rep. they never made any improvement in the vibration. Half shafts changed 2 times (different parts), tires balanced and rotated 5 times, drive shaft balanced, steering column damper spring changed, brake rotors turned and supposedly checked for balance, etc.
I also had 3 sets of tires on it and 2 sets of wheels. Had 2 different tire and wheel combinations balanced on the Hunter (at my own expense). Balancing on the Hunter improved the steering wheel shake but never did anything to reduce the original vibration.
I am about 70% certain that the source of the vibration was in the rear end. A couple of other LS owners reported a similar vibration that was solved via balancing bolts for holding the driveshaft to the rear end yoke. I tried suggesting this to my dealer, but they run a black hole service department that will not take suggestions from a customer. I wanted to try another dealer but Lincoln insisted that the selling dealer handle the problem.
I gave up, Lincoln gave up too telling me the car could not be fixed. Lincoln finally offered me some assistance to help me get out of my lease early if I replaced the LS with another Ford, Lincoln or Mercury product.
Unless your steering wheel vibrates or shimmies, don't waste your time balancing the tires, it's most likely not the problem. I doubt that my LS had any trauma as when I first test drove it there was 7 miles on the odometer and 28 miles when I picked it up with all 21 miles put on it by me before I took delivery.
I've tried to keep tabs on other LS owners with this vibration problem and it seems like it's 50-50 on getting it fixed.
Good, luck hope you get it solved and if you do let us know what the fix was. I loved my LS, except for the vibration & dealer service dept.
I know what you mean about Lincoln sales people. The first time I went to a dealer to test drive a LS, all the salesman wanted to do was bend my ear about the fully loaded Navigator he just sold.
After 10 or 15 minutes I finally turned around and walked away from him in mid sentance. When he came running after me I had to tell him I could care less about his Navigator sale I was there to drive a LS at which point he finally shut up and went to look for some keys.
I rent one every chance I get. I think they are incredible drivers.....
Not to mention, a sleeper, for the, um, spirited driver. This AM one of the supposedly hot new Nissan Maximas was tailgating me as I approached a tight, 270-degree, 25 mph interstate on ramp. I guess they're fast 0-60 but, boy, on a curve they get real small real fast in an LS's rear view mirror.:):) He passed me a couple miles down the road and gave me the "What IS that?!" look we know & love. Some fun.
Unfortunately, Lincoln dealers who don't really "get it" are one of the "crosses that we must bear". :-)
It's nice to see that you have your priorities in the right order... after all you can't take it with you.
Good luck,
Joe
Charter Member
Lincoln LS Owners Club
My salesman knew nothing about the car. At one point he poped the hood to show me the levels that are there for adjusting the headlights. He said they were for checking the 50/50 weight balance. In all my years I have never met a car salesman who knew anything about the product he was selling. Every question gets a response of "let me go check on that" Even Sears won't put a salesman in a commission dept. on the floor for the first 3 weeks until he's completed training. All a car salesman wants to do is sit the customer down and nail down a price. I think they believe 99% of the people that come thru the door have already made up their mind and that they don't have to "sell the car"
Due to the very poor customer service I received from Continental, I took all of them off the car and replaced them with Falken ZX502s, although in a 16" size, not the 17" that Ezaircon did. So far, I'm very pleased with them, as they're quieter that the Continentals, and their "turn-in" response is much sharper.
I doubt that they'd be good as an "all season" tire, as the tread isn't heavily siped, as other all season tires are. However, I have snow tires, so that's not an issue for me. I also had them balanced on a Hunter machine, as others have just mentioned, and the vibration is exactly "zero".
Lincoln apparently knows that there are some vibration issues with the '00-'02 LS. Several of the releases on the '03 LS specifically mention improvements in NVH (noise vibration & harsness). Improvements noted are a 20% stiffer unibody structure, new improved sound deadening and urathane vibration damper masses that are glued inside the doors to eliminate vibration in the outer door panels.
Lincoln has apparently decided to soften up the base LS (non-sport) to make the LS appeal more to the Lincoln Continental crowd. Although I did not have Conti tires there have been several negative posts on the Continentals. From the descriptions it sounds to me like the Conti's have really floppy sidewalls to make the ride softer. Some of the specific complaints were understeer, which the LS simply should not do and again is an indication of weak sidewalls.
For 16" tires I recommend Michelin Pilot Sport XGT-V4's. They have excellent turn in response, really track great in a straight line, are quiet and have unbelievable cornering grip. The only downside is that they are a little harsh. I suspect that this is due to stiff sidewalls which give the great turn in feel, straight tracking and help the cornering grip. They are driveable in the snow, but they are not real snow tires. IIRC the P215/60R 16" XGT-V4's are about $120 each on tirerack.com and they have great owner reviews on tirerack too. Their treadwear also seems resonably good, from mine I estimate that about 40K miles would be obtainable and I cornered real hard at every opportunity with those tires.
I bought my Falkens online, from Vulcan Tire for $54 + shipping. I doubt that they will perform as well as the Michelins. However, I've had a string of bad luck with road debris vs. tires lately, and I'm a little reluctant to spend big bucks for tires.
What is being done to service and replace this KNOWN DEFECT? Probably not much and the company is just buying time until warranties expire. LS owners beware!!!!! If you’re not using your windows you’re bound to be surprised at some point down the road (I’ve only used mine a dozen times). I will contact the BBB to file a complaint.
Your second paragraph, however, is full of false assumptions. What has been done is simple: The part has been redesigned, and the new part has been installed in new LSs as of January 1. There is a service bulletin which addresses the problem on cars built before this date; it calls for replacement of BOTH rear window regulators with the redesigned part. It has NOT been ignored and Lincoln HAS taken the proper action.
If you do ever find that PERFECT car that never breaks down, never needs anything replaced, and nothing wears out let us know what it is. That manufacturer will put everyone else out of business.
As for the poor design comment . . . your criticism is also levied against BMW and Mercedes, as they use the SAME DESIGN AND SUPPLIER for rear window regulators. The only difference in the early LS design was that a small plastic clip/retainer was used to secure the glass to the lift mechanism. Needless to say, the plastic is the culprit. It doesn't handle prolonged exposure to high temperatures and INACTIVITY too well, as the window/mechanism is under it's highest stress load when the window fully closed. Regular use seems to reduce the likelihood for failure, but it's probably inevitable that it will eventually fail.
Lincoln has long since stepped up to the plate to correct this problem. If one mechanism fails, dealers are directed to replace BOTH rear window mechanisms. See TSB#02-7-3. The replacement mechanisms are IDENTICAL in all aspects to those used by Mercedes-Benz and BMW where the plastic retainer has been replaced by a metal one. The part numbers for these mechanisms are 2W4Z-5427008-AA and 2W4Z-5427009-AA. My dealer tells me that Lincoln will continue to replace broken window mechanisms even after the warranty expires. It is not considered a recall item because it is not deemed a safety issue. The metal retainers were first introduced into the LS assembly line in January 2002. Hope this information helps you understand the circumstances a little better, though it's still a PITA to deal with
Do you know who the current president is?
So, all I can add is this story. A cop friend of mine has a Cadillac Deville. I don't know who the subcontractor is who makes their power window mechanisms, but his rear windows have both failed 7 times now. SEVEN TIMES! He finally had to take them apart himself and screw them into the up position making them inoperative, because the car is now out of warranty, and GM won't fix them anymore.
I'll tell him to file a complaint with the BBB. Obviously, ohm, you have a low tolerance for machinery. One failure, one fix? In an hour? What more do you want? You weren't walking!
http://www.detnews.com/2002/insiders/0210/16/-613990.htm
I am extremely familiar with my Lincoln service department! The first 16 months that I owned the vehicle, what can I say, It was a great ride!! Then starting in December 01, the first major service was a two week encounter to replace, Struts, bent bolts on the suspension, several window regulators, cracking leather seats and unusually loud, squealing brakes. So now we're 10 months into 2002 and 29,300 miles, the struts again, sway bars, upper/lower ball joints, tire rods, front/rear brakes (not warranty), $1000 (Pirelli's) (replaced the Firestones, not warranty). Now of these repairs have corrected the "popping" noises that come from my front end and has left the service department scratching theirs heads, amongst other things.
Is there anyone out there that would disagree with me about getting rid of this vehicle, "while the getting's good"?
Please give me some feed back soon!!
Mike, 2000 LS mtx, 38K miles, no complaints, finally broken in...
I have spoken with Lincoln and they have acknowledged that there are several Warranty issues (translated as defects with the front end) and they assured me that all repairs would be covered under warranty and they have been.
The popping and clacking noises have always been were very intermittent at first. They quickly become very frequent, whether turning a corner or just in normal operation (backing, parking etc.) I forgot to mention in my original posting, that the steering column was also replaced last month as well, in an effort to help them figure out where the popping was coming from. Since they had already done a considerable amount of work to correct the popping issue, they just starting replacing parts until the noise stopped or at least until they thought it had stopped. When I picked my car up two weeks ago, after they had it in for 1 -1/2 weeks, the popping was still there. It starts of very soft and infrequent and then becomes louder and more frequent.
If I abused the car and drove on roads that were meant for "off road" driving, then I could understand the problems, but that is not the case. I live in a middle class suburban area of town and those roads, as well as all other roads are kept in good condition and besides that, I take very good care of my car.
I guess that I have either run across that "Lemon" that everyone hopes they don't get or the technicians here just aren't trained correctly.
Further comments on this issue is appreciated.
Anyway, there have been issues with sway bar bushings causing odd noises. When you had the sway bars replaced, did they use new bushings?
Good luck!
As for the "bent" bolt, who knows!! They wouldn't elaborate on exactly which bolt it was, just that it was in the front end - go figure. Yes, they did replace the bushing ends as well. BUT THE NOISE REMAINS.
To 1lsbmw0, I have not secured the name of the Lincoln rep. for this area. However, the last time the car was in, I informed them then that, if this time in didn't fix the problems, that my next step was going to be, to contact the Lincoln Rep. Of course their eyes were wide open then and they all but ask me not to make that call. H-mmm, wonder what that's about??
At least when they have had the car in for repaits, I get a free rental, at their expense. I guess I will trade it off for a Toyota 4-runner and get on with my life.
2001 LS 8 Sport Owner with 34,000 trouble-free miles on original tires and brakes.
I have always been a Ford customer because they stand behind their products and have always done the right thing by me, not that I have had problems with the 11 Ford products that my wife and I have owned, but when we did, even if the car was out of warranty the dealer still made the repairs at no charge to me. I hope if this turns out to be a serious issue they will continue that trend, after all when you build over 7 million cars and trucks there are bound to be a few bad samples. I will keep you posted on our progress when I get the car back on Tuesday.
Guess what? I have and they aren't wrong. I've driven 4 of them and what Kelley states and Detroit News states is correct.
Stick to your Lexus.
We see many posts from people like me with practically no problems at all, and yet we see posts from a number of people who seem to get ALL the problems anyone has heard of, all collected in one single car!
I find it interesting that occasionally it seems some car comes off the assembly line with a bunch of problems. There is some strange probabilistic demon that seems to lurk there.
I hope you can get a satisfactory solution to your car's problems that doesn't leave you soured on the thought of American automobiles in general and Lincoln in particular.
"Most notably gone from the 2003 lineup is the manual transmission that was available only on the V-6 powered LS. Lincoln says the only people who wanted it were auto writers, and we don't buy cars"
"The 'take rate' was less than 1 percent, says Ford VP Chris Theodore."
"Ok, it was a slow-seller, but for the record, auto writers wanted a six-speed manual in the V-8 LS, with a horsepower bump and maybe some suspension tweaks to appeal to the speed freaks who lust after BMW M5s".
"Dream on"
"The LS does not sell in large enough volumes - certainly not compared with the Jaguar S-Type, which shares the same platform - to make a marketing case for a lot of different flavors. And Lincoln seems disinclined to go too far out on a limb since its misadventure with the renegade Blackwood pickup".
Two questions: When did Ford VP Chris Theodore get his lobotomy? Was it company-wide?
And since when did Jaguar S-Types outsell the Lincoln LS? At least in North American volume?
I bought a V-6 MTX. And I can't even write!
My other car is an '80 Triumph TR7 roadster. A few years ago it needed an engine, a 2 liter four that shares it's basic construction with the Saab 99/900 of the '70s & early '80s. An old magazine article suggested that the TR owner "slip in the turbocharged Saab engine." Intrigued, I investigated, even found a suitable donor. Same basic engine, but in the Saab it is rotated 180 degrees, putting the clutch in front. Just imagining what the radiator hoses would have to look like gave me a headache, and that was only the beginning. "Slip in", indeed. Ever since then, I've regarded the world of automobile journalism with suspicion.
First, Stan, the author didn't mean to imply that the Jag S-Type outsold the LS, he was merely pointing out that the overall sales volume of the LS wasn't so large that it could justify 11 or so different variants of the car that were offered in the '02 MY (compared with the S-Type sales volumes achieved with only 3 variants). The '03 MY will only have 4 different configurations/flavors to choose from.
Second, Scott, the "streamlining" comment refers to the same issue as the first. Lincoln Marketing wanted to reduce/streamline the overall number of configurations of the '03 LS. Apparently, according to Lincoln, too many choices only served to confuse the consumer and cost Lincoln too much to allow for that much customization.
At least that's how I understand the author. I'm not sure I agree with the lobotomy comment though. Like the author, I think the North American market would have taken to a V8 MTX combination much better than the V6 MTX, but Lincoln, I think, correctly points out that the V6 MTX sales volumes were way too low to justify offering in the '03 LS.
A lot of the changes are so subtle that they go unnoticed unless parked beside an earlier model.
The interior is another story. I wish this is how it was from the beginning. Much more useable room and a cleaner overall look.
Of course what doesn't show (major suspension rework and more power) don't hurt either.
They had to replaces the components on the side of which the suspension where the issue was. Took 2 months for them to figure it out and tore my car apart. I still love my car though.
They replaced the links and the bushings on that side of the car as well as the whole sway bar. If you would like more info I can look it up and let you know exactly what they replaced.
Regards,
airwolf1000