I had a feeling you took it wrong the first time around, and went back to check and sure enough, pretty sure you're the only one who twisted the blind point into something only your ravenous appetite to have something to be defensive about, could grasp.
Doc, didn't you just say a few posts back that your hearing has been compromised considerably in past years compared to when you first opened shop? Can you really not imagine that when you lose one sense, other senses kick in often with authority? When a person loses their sight, it is a scientific fact that their sense of smell, hearing and touch can all become more acute. Can you really not imagine situations where one or more of those senses could help them not only troubleshoot something quicker than you, but maybe even find something you couldn't at all?
And Steve already has elaborated with a damn good example of how one disability can reveal strengths in other senses that some people can't imagine unless they live it. It really doesn't take a rocket scientist to have that level of imagination, doc. Getting a whiff of bowel, while might have been a TV plot, is TOTALLY freakin' realistic! If anything, it is more representative of the quality of writing on M.A.S.H..and no doubt contributed to its success. Or are you a medical doctor too? If so, then you might get my car but not me..with such a narrow minded and defensive outlook on everything. You really do repeat yourself a lot. Pretty sure we (the regulars) get it by now. What you don't seem to get, is that with such a stubborn, dismissive attitude, you really might miss something on my car, that the blind guy might catch. And in potentially less time. That's the point here...not so much that it probably would take him longer to do things, but that he might actually be able to do something YOU CAN'T! Or troubleshoot something quicker than you. Now I know that's gonna be a big pill for ya to consider trying to swallow, but so be it.
Anyway, I think it is demeaning and disrespectful to constantly insist someone answer a question that you have set up in bully fashion, assuming the answer is going to pad your repertoire of self-fulling prophecies, when in actual fact he was graciously side-stepping (your probable claim) the answer with real world examples, and in so doing, was giving you an out. But of course, no good deed goes unpunished..
You probably won't even know what I'm trying to point out here, but I thought someone should try at least. I thought I'd try to do you a favor rather than let ya suffer in confusion.. :shades:
Anyway...with all that said, it's true that Steve is guilty of baiting sometimes..I've seen it a number of times... but I don't think that is what he was up to this time around.
It's been suggested before but it seems to roll off you like water on a duck's back..but you should try to lighten up more. And since that advice skirts a little close to potentially hypocritical ground for me, I'll acknowledge that potential and remind myself of that very same thing..but who better to remind you again than me right?? :P
Hope my sincerity has come through this post, cuz I'm not trying to lambast ya..
(and FWIW, found a small (lengthwise oddly enough??) crack in my vacuum line to the power brake booster) almost like a cut even. Just a hard spot of rubber I guess. Certainly premature in my books, but who knows what mighta happened to it on the line or wherever). Nonetheless, even with it fixed, there sure ain't much vacuum assist time left in reserve after engine is shut down. I'm certain many of my older vehicles had more than this. Anyway mystery solved and is much better..
I I had a feeling you took it wrong the first time around, and went back to check and sure enough, pretty sure you're the only one who twisted the blind point into something only your ravenous appetite to have something to be defensive about, could grasp.
Had started to write same thing, at this point seems useless. Guess we will have to learn to accept each other as is... warts and all.
Hey, it's not baiting - it's generating forum activity.
And man, my throttle plate was carboned up the worst I've ever seen it. Hopefully I got most of it cleaned out and hopefully the "sensor safe" aerosol won't wipe out whatever is downstream. Just need to find a bottle of Techron and my spring tune-up will be complete.
Anyway, I think it is demeaning and disrespectful to constantly insist someone answer a question that you have set up in bully fashion, assuming the answer is going to pad your repertoire of self-fulling prophecies, when in actual fact he was graciously side-stepping (your probable claim) the answer with real world examples, and in so doing, was giving you an out. But of course, no good deed goes unpunished..
His side stepping the question is explained far easier than that. The cost to employ a blind technician or other similarly challenged individual would in all fairness raise his prices and he doesn't want that in any shape or fashion. He doesn't want to pay what we have to charge in this financially crippled trade when its staffed by able bodied people. JMHO
Pretty sure we (the regulars) get it by now. What you don't seem to get, is that with such a stubborn, dismissive attitude, you really might miss something on my car, that the blind guy might catch
So how is anyone supposed to take a statement like that without being insulted by it? "you really might miss something on my car, that the blind guy might catch"
After 35+ years of that kind of crap I take my time and prove exactly what is going on with my customers cars. Just today I was doing some house keeping (between posts) in the shop while I was patiently working at getting a random no-start to occur on a Ford Ranger. Anyone can google and find that the fuel pump is listed as a possible cause. But until its truly proven its only a guess and guessing will kill you in this trade. Now the way it was proven while reasonably simple from my perspective is something high tech enough that you will find rare in the trade, and non existant outside of it. Yet it's not the successes that seem to matter, the only thing that seems to matter is the suggestion of some potential failure, and the double suggestion that someone with no real reason to have equal training and knowledge will succeed beyond my limitations. And you wonder why I tend to be defensive.
Doc, didn't you just say a few posts back that your hearing has been compromised considerably in past years compared to when you first opened shop? Can you really not imagine that when you lose one sense, other senses kick in often with authority?
It's now down to 40% over 3000 hz and I can't hear anything at all over 6000hz. The doctor says there is nothing that can be done to totally restore it but amplification would help for a while.
The part everyone is missing is how consumers react to handicaps. On several occasions its been clear that my hearing loss has inconvenienced some of them. 'What do you mean you can't hear high pitches, and you can't hear that noise? What kind of a mechanic are you?" said one woman.
I feel so guilty; I changed the oil in my '02 all by myself. I should have taken it to a neophyte tech so he could screw it up and then "learn" from his mistakes. Who knows? He might have cut his teeth at Tire Kingdom and learned to loosen all the lug nuts on at least one wheel whenever he performed an oil change... :P
Carry on...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Geez, doc..in more than one place in your post, it suggests that you still don't get it, (other senses becoming more aware with the loss of one). You again displayed dismissiveness. Here is a prime example:
So how is anyone supposed to take a statement like that without being insulted by it? "you really might miss something on my car, that the blind guy might catch"
I wasn't trying to insult you. I was attempting to be as pragmatic as you claim to be. The difference is, I am beginning to realize the level of literalness thinking that you seem to practice. It's greater than I realized. You can dish it out, but you seem to hurt easily.
When that chap lost his sight but continued to work on carbs, do you not think that in so doing he was holding on with dear life to his trade, not unlike the commitment that you display? Not to put words in your mouth, but it does seem like you basically dismiss and belittle the guys efforts to keep serving. Where would that put you if your customers were as critical of your new hearing deficit? I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that you probably would defend to your customers that while your hearing is not what it once was, you still have a lot to offer them in vehicle repair. Do you not think that that blind chap feels the same way?
Anyway, something tells me I'm probably beating a dead horse here, so I'll drop it. Who knows...maybe this conviction you display has been behind the level of success that you have had. Let's hope you don't suffer a disability more crippling than your hearing cuz life (and customers) can be even more unsympathetic. Your stance on this proves it.
This topic reminds me of another old saying regarding a stubborn old carpenter who finally saw the light about something that had him stumped.. "I see said the blind carpenter as he picked up his hammer and saw."
When that chap lost his sight but continued to work on carbs, do you not think that in so doing he was holding on with dear life to his trade, not unlike the commitment that you display? Not to put words in your mouth, but it does seem like you basically dismiss and belittle the guys efforts to keep serving
It's not belittling what he was doing, nor what he did in the past before he lost his sight. You have never been in the trade, have you? There is no support for anyone who can't pull their own weight. There really isn't much for those who can either. No matter where I worked the only thing we ever heard was how someone else was better at whatever and none of us were ever going to be any good. It never mattered what we accomplished we always had to take a backseat to someone else.
Having re-built a few thousand of carbs in my career I'd like to think that I got pretty good at it. There are portions of that job that would be impossible without vision and someone else would have to perform those steps. Ironically, they are the exact steps that take the job from one that would still cause the car to run rough, stumble and stall at times to one that worked like the car did when it was new. GM's bubble level for all of the choke settings was exactly one of those portions of the job with a Q-jet. Ford's VV carb which was set up with a dial indicator was easily another. The little tweaks and adjustments the morning after the rebuild required driving the car and while manipulating the throttle feel the engines A/F ratio to know if some section of the carb was a little too rich or lean and that simply can't be done from the passengers seat.
Anyway, something tells me I'm probably beating a dead horse here, so I'll drop it. Who knows...maybe this conviction you display has been behind the level of success that you have had.
There is no doubt that my habit of studying after hours is directly related to how I and other techs were treated on the job by employers as well as by the customers. I used that negative energy to push myself to continually study and learn in a positive fashion. Yet even here it apparently still hasn't been enough.
Let's hope you don't suffer a disability more crippling than your hearing cuz life (and customers) can be even more unsympathetic. Your stance on this proves it.
It's a bit late for that, I started out with a particular challenge that was never understood and addressed when I was a kid. Now with liver damage from the chemicals in the shop, A-Fib, total loss of feeling in my arms and hands, can't see up close without glasses. (hate how hard it is to see when everything underhood is black) my measure is still my shortcomings, not any successes. But that's OK really, I'm used to it. All that I am doing with this is trying to show how poorly many consumers really do treat shops and techs, and how much more there is to really understand exactly what techs do today to work on these cars. When I got the Ranger to act up yesterday, the fuel pump circuit was drawing twenty-one amps of current, but its the way the current rose as the circuit was turned on and off that proves exactly where the fault in the circuit is. To get that information required measuring the current with the PICOscope with a low amps probe connected in a strategic location, and then it still took patience and a good plan to get the problem to occur. I mentioned earlier that you could use google and you would find the fuel pump as a possible cause, but there are quite a number of other possible causes too. If we would just change the pump and this time it didn't fix the car then that would end up being our measure. The problem is that it should be the effort that went into proving that the fuel pump is in fact bad that should be.
So you didn't take your car to them and this didn't happen but you have to portrait it as if that was the only possible outcome if you had. Thanks for making one of my points for me, again.
because over the weekend, I finally managed to get this old beast moving under its own power and limped it out there.
This is the car that I mentioned awhile back, that had issues with stalling out and not re-starting, or simply refusing to start at all. It would usually happen at work. It would get me to work, no trouble at all, but in the evening, it would often refuse to start. It would crank, but wouldn't fire up. So, I'd get a ride home, drive another car to work the next day, and lo and behold, the sucker would fire right up. So then I'd drive it home and get a ride back to work.
Anyway, the previous mechanic did some work on it, said he fixed it and proudly proclaimed that he wouldn't be afraid to drive the car ANYWHERE (his emphasis). And then it stalled out around the corner from his shop. He couldn't get it to re-start, said that he gave up, and then almost as if the car wanted to slight him, the next time I turned the key it fired right up.
Since then, the car has started developing other issues. I think the starter is beginning to fail. Sometimes it just clicks when you turn the key, like it's on a dead spot, but then sometimes it turns over and then starts clicking. Sometimes it fires right up. I'm sure that was putting a strain on the battery, which would drain down, and then make it even harder to start.
It's also stuck on fast idle, and I wasn't able to get it to kick down. But oddly, when I'd shift out of park and into gear, it would lunge ahead and then stall out. But, thankfully it re-started. It behaved on the trip out for the most part, although when coming to a stop, sometimes it would start to sputter, so I had to two-foot it (one on the brake, one on the gas).
Oh, and once I got it to the shop's parking lot and I shut it off, I tried turning it back on, to see how it would act. Fired right up. I have a bad feeling that this is going to be one of those intermittent issues where the car suddenly behaves itself for the mechanic, only to act up again once I get it back!
And, if this mechanic can't get it sorted out, and it begins stalling again, don't worry Cardoc, I won't bad-mouth him. :P This guy isn't the type to boast about how he can fix anything, pompously brag about how it's fixed, only to have it break a few minutes later. If this guy can't figure it out, he'll let me know!
At the risk of my ideas getting pummeled, I'll take a hands-off internet shot.. I'd take a look at:
- bad ignition switch - a fuel tank venting issue - fuel flow blockage somewhere/water in the fuel? - a temperature related or abrasion related coil wire - neutral/Park related lockout switch
Don't rule out the chance that whatever the mechanic worked on could still be behind the issue. Not saying that to be critical of the guy, it's just that when wiring is disturbed, fuel systems cleaned etc etc it can create/dislodge new similar issues.
I'd definitely try to get your high idle choke setting fixed so that it isn't so hard on the tranny slamming into gear. Maybe a broken choke return spring/sticky choke cam...also potentially related to the drivability issue.
If th ignition switch does happen to be part of the problem, make sure you don't have bulky key rings and masses of keys and do-dads. Guys sometimes have a lot of keys on the ring...chics tend to have huge heavy white-metal do-dads and ornaments hanging off their key rings. The swinging around while driving and going over bumps creates a real intermittent ailment that can take awhile to piece it together. I watched a girl at Walmart once, attempting to pull her keys outta her purse and couldn't believe the trail of paraphernalia she had. There were chains and rings and stuff...it just kept kept coming...She even had a small flashlight on there! lol
Thanks for those ideas...some of them, like the ignition switch, never even occurred to me. And I think there is definitely something temperature-related going on, because it's usually harder to start on hotter days. I remember one hot summer day, it refused to start up that evening, after sitting for about 8 1/2 hours. It would turn over, but just wouldn't fire up. And spraying starting fluid down the carb throat didn't help, either. But then, a line of thunderstorms came through and things cooled off considerably. I came back up to work after they passed, and damn if the thing didn't fire right up!
As for the previous mechanic, the first time I had taken the car to him, he said it was the carburetor, and sent it out to have it rebuilt. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean it was rebuilt correctly, or adjusted properly. Anyway, that did nothing to solve the problem. The next time it went in was the time it died right around the corner. I can't remember what he did to it that time, but he also worked on the power steering, which was starting to leak, and did some brake work, and something else I can't remember. I do remember though, that it had to go back a couple more times because the back brakes kept grabbing. And as for the stalling/refusing to start issue, he kept insisting there was nothing wrong with it.
I have a feeling that there's a problem (probably multiple problems) with the Lean Burn system. Sometimes I wish I picked a decade other than the 70's to be nostalgic about.
You guys still have Radio Shack, eh? But any auto parts joint probably has it too..get some aerosol cool spray. Could maybe rule the coil out with that stuff. edit - (or even take a wet wash cloth laying in a bowl of ice water on your next drive...that's actually cheaper and better in this case) Don't really spray it down, but just a quick pssst to give it a cool down, then try to start it. If that worked consistently, that'd tend to point to a bad coil. (I'm not very familiar with old New Yorkers...is their rotor (in the distributor) prone to temp issues I wonder? I doubt it is that though cuz then it would probably still try to fire on irregular cylinders while starting.) I've seen this type of temperature related electrical issue before. If this is electrical, it sounds like it is an on/off type thing. And with newer cars, solder joints on a board that sometimes make contact with temp expansion and contraction. It can be hard to trace.
Poor guy though...feeling like the car was trying to slight him...haha If there is anything on earth more heartless and without feeling, it's gotta be our cars.
Anyway, the previous mechanic did some work on it, said he fixed it and proudly proclaimed that he wouldn't be afraid to drive the car ANYWHERE (his emphasis). And then it stalled out around the corner from his shop. He couldn't get it to re-start, said that he gave up, and then almost as if the car wanted to slight him, the next time I turned the key it fired right up.
While its dead its easy, its when its playing the hide and go seek game that it really gets tough. What happens is you can find things that are problems, but that doesn't mean that they are THE problem.
It's also stuck on fast idle, and I wasn't able to get it to kick down. But oddly, when I'd shift out of park and into gear, it would lunge ahead and then stall out. But, thankfully it re-started. It behaved on the trip out for the most part, although when coming to a stop, sometimes it would start to sputter, so I had to two-foot it (one on the brake, one on the gas).
The fast idle cam has to be synchronized with the choke plate. If the cam is too high, you stay on fast idle too long, too low and it drops off of fast idle the moment you touch the throttle. The choke pull-off should open the choke plate enough to move it off of the top step of the cam to at least the second step, if not the third. The stalling and starting right back up without having to hold your foot to the floor to clear a flood suggests that the main metering is either too lean, or at the least the choke plate is being opened too far by the choke pull-off. That is part of the seat of the pants feel that it takes to set these up.
Since this doesn't fire with ether that suggests that you are either losing spark, or have insufficient spark. Just taking the coil wire out of the distributor and letting it arc to a valve cover isn't though to prove that you have good spark.
To get spark you must have good power to the ignition controller and that means while the module is turning the coil on as well. My regular service information doesn't go back to 79, so I have to go by memory for now. (That's usually a bad idea) I would expect that this has a ballast resistor and does not use full 12v for the coil during normal operation. This also probably has a relay to bypass the ballast resistor when cranking so that there is more power available to the coil. Common failures were the ballast resistor, the relay, the controller and the pick-up in the distributor. Chrysler TSB's had techs eliminate the lean burn system and that solved many of the problems people had with them.
I just remembered another little issue with these. Some used two pick-up coils in the distributor, one was for normal operation, the other was only used during cranking and there was a relay that switched them. If the relay or the cranking pick-up would be failing the car would do that random cranks but won't start as well.
We all have our crosses to bear, and of course that's one of mine. There are however a couple of things that nobody else here would know or consider.
The blind mechanic who was rebuilding carbs story that I recall occurred somewhere around 90-91. The store manager found it and showed it to myself and another tech while he cut down several other techs in our shop and he used the line, "look a blind guy can build carbs, why can't XXXX, and YYYYY and ZZZZZ especially with all of his ASEs?"
So maybe that wasn't the main intent of the story, I only know how it was used around us plus the fact that I would not be able to work to the level that I need to without my eyesight.
With that kind of management it took ego, tons of it, to not cave in and start selling the gravy services that we call wallet flushing today and instead concentrate on just fixing the broken cars. So yea, too much EGO sucks, but this tiger can't change his stripes and I wouldn't be doing what I can do today without it.
I had forgotten about those pesky ballast resistors that would go bad.
I do recall that Chryslers of that vintage were sometimes miserable to get running correctly. I remember a lot of guys hated to work on them and those Thermo Quad carbs could be nasty.
Then, those were dark days as emission requirements got tougher and the car manufacturers struggled to keep up and still produce cars that ran fairly well.
Guys would curse the Varible Venturi carbs too but for those who took the time to understand how they worked got pretty good at them.
What everyone needs to remember about stories such as this is that they are anecdotal.
For example, there's a video on YouTube in which you can see someone teaching dogs to drive a car (on a closed course). Now, even if my Doberman somehow learns to drive well enough to pilot the Indy 500 pace car, I'm not riding with him behind the wheel.
Just because SOMEONE can do SOMETHING well doesn't really mean anything to anyone, other than that particular person.
When I was attending a military academy during my high school, I (like all other cadets) learned how to disassemble and reassemble an M-1 rifle in the dark. It's been over 40 years since I've done it, but I suspect I could still do it today.
That ability, and a $5 bill, will get me a cup of coffee at Starbucks.
My point?
Just because someone can do something doesn't make it a valuable asset, nor does it create a demand for that ability.
A blind man rebuilding the carb on MY car? It wouldn't be my first choice of a person to do the job. Even if he's the best at it, it hardly translates to anything other than an aberration of the normal.
Don't get me wrong, I'm proud for the guy. I'm willing to bet, though, he'd be the first one to admit the difficulties associated with the job and his physical limitations.
adj. 1. also an·ec·dot·ic (-dtk) or an·ec·dot·i·cal (--kl) Of, characterized by, or full of anecdotes. 2. Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis: "There are anecdotal reports of children poisoned by hot dogs roasted over a fire of the [oleander] stems" (C. Claiborne Ray).
I'm not disputing that you saw the man do the work, but can you attest to how well the work was performed?
How well did the rebuilt parts perform?
Even if the guy was the best carb rebuilder ever, at the end of the day, he's still a fluke, which is the point I was making. It's not an occupation one finds many blind people working in.
Regarding the rifles, I was at a military academy, not West Point... We got the leftovers from the previous century, although I will say the smoke grenades were quite a bit of fun...
Let's just try to pick the specks out of the pepper! Geez!
Not my intent at all. But, it remains anecdotal.
The issue I have with items like this is what conclusions some take away from them.
Kind of like someone saying his uncle Joe drove his cars 100K miles and never changed the oil in any of them.... Just added a quart every now and then.
I'm sure this is the kind of thing that drives Cardoc nuts when he's dealing with a difficult customer.
actually it WOULD be anecdotal unless the person could verify his uncle's actions with hard evidence. His uncle could have lied to him, or he could have misunderstood his uncle, etc.
This is actually an interesting topic. In the LAW, eye-witness accounts do matter in court; in science, and for that matter auto science and diagnosis, eye-witness accounts are at the very bottom of the evidence hierarchy.
actually it WOULD be anecdotal unless the person could verify his uncle's actions with hard evidence. His uncle could have lied to him, or he could have misunderstood his uncle, etc.
This is actually an interesting topic. In the LAW, eye-witness accounts do matter in court; in science, and for that matter auto science and diagnosis, eye-witness accounts are at the very bottom of the evidence hierarchy.
There's a very good reason for that, too. Quite often, eye witness accounts are proven without a doubt to be flat-out wrong.
Getting back to cars, here's an interesting example of how people ignore the facts in front of them and accept accounts and suggestions from people the have never met, nor ever will...
This is from a recent post on the Mini section of Edmund's forums:
I don't know what I have done to upset the gods, but I felt like I walked right into vicious left hook when I took my car to service at the dealership.
I have a 2008 Mini Convertible that is in fine condition. It has done 80K miles (with no major issues), so it was due for Inspection II service. The price quote was $900, which made me almost choke when I heard that price. Is that really a fair price?
On top of that there were so many other repairs apparently urgently that it made me dizzy: fuel injection service ($240), coolant exchange ($240), trunk/hood switch replacement ($200) and Power steering return hose ($450). Those additional repairs came to $1130, bringing the total to $2K. They gave me a token discount of $100.
They also wanted to fix my radiator for $1100 and change 2 tires for another $650, but by the time they mentioned it, somehow I found the strength to whisper: "Stop! No more!"
Have I been ripped off? Is $900 for inspection II really fair? Are all those additional "urgent" repairs they threw in really necessary and priced fairly?
I feel like I’ve been duped and like a fool.
It would make me feel much better if someone could honestly tell me that I’m overreacting and that the dealership treated me fairly.
Any advice on how to negotiate a lower bill with the dealer if I'm being overcharged would be most appreciated.
My prediction: This poor fellow, and his dealership are both going to end up losing out here.
First of all, Mini/BMW products all come with maintenance plan manuals that describe service intervals referred to as Inspection I and II. This is information readily available, but for whatever reason, the owner neglected to read it. He knows it exists, but that's as far as he got.
Instead, the owner is going to get his decision-making information from the web, and a lot of it will end up being completely wrong, and a size able amount will probably be anecdotal.
In the end, the owner is going to feel abused, and the dealership is going to lose a customer.
But, it didn't have to be that way. If the owner had read his manual, and knew what items were included/suggested by BMW/Mini before the service "event", he could have entered the discussion with everything he needed to know in order to make an intelligent decision.
It's a situation where no one wins, and everyone is guilty to some degree.
Uhh, I'd say the dealership won. Over two grand in non-warranty repairs and maintenance. .. most of it gravy. Though the dealership would hate to lose that customer, I'm sure they wont lose any sleep if the guy doesn't come back.
There's fault on both sides to be sure, but it's a classic case of punishing the customer who trusts you----and so, they will never trust you again. E-V-E-R.
Dealerships should not permit these upsells. The very nature of a repair facility is a reflection of the state of mind of the owner/manager.
A shop actually has a personality--it is almost, collectively, a "person" in itself.
Sort of makes you wonder if this is the first time he has been to the dealer for service, since his maintenance plan ran out at 36K miles.. Because, if he had been keeping up with the regular service intervals, Inspection II would have been at around 60K.. and, he would have been in at least there times for service on his own dime, and those prices wouldn't have surprised him.
And, if my supposition is correct, and he has only had three or four Jiffy Lube changes in the last 55K miles, it's not surprising he needs all that work. MINIs aren't exactly famous for being repair free, and they don't respond well to lax maintenance (like most BMW products).
Uhh, I'd say the dealership won. Over two grand in non-warranty repairs and maintenance. .. most of it gravy. Though the dealership would hate to lose that customer, I'm sure they wont lose any sleep if the guy doesn't come back.
Certainly, in the short run, I agree. This practice is why so many refer to dealerships as "stealerships", and there isn't anything unique about the practice as it relates to BMW. I've seen this behavior over many product lines over the years. A local Chevy dealership, now out of business, was famous (or should i say notorious) for up charging...
There's fault on both sides to be sure, but it's a classic case of punishing the customer who trusts you----and so, they will never trust you again. E-V-E-R.
Dealerships should not permit these upsells. The very nature of a repair facility is a reflection of the state of mind of the owner/manager.
As long as commissions/bonuses are paid to service dept. personnel, I don't see any letup in that type of behavior.
Of course, there's a fairly simple solution to much of this. Read the car's manuals, and understand the car's service requirements. One doesn't have to be a top tier mechanic to read a manual.
That'll go a long way towards being treated fairly when going to the dealership service department...
I'd be ordering the hose through WorldPac (Carquest.) We follow the labor guides, so the time would be as shifty mentioned but our labor rate is under $80/hr. To say the least, we'd be no-where near his estimate.
Wallet Flushing is something that I personally don't believe in doing and we work much harder to make ends meet because we don't sell services like this. BAR (Bureau of Automobile Repair) recently set out to shut down the practice.
Keep in mind that techs who don't sell services like this are not "Team Players", and most have been starved out of their jobs. This goes full circle to why I ever visited here in the first place. Don't attack the techs for doing what the dealers train them to do. They are literally taught that this is what the cars need and learn to accept it as part of their jobs and how to make a living. As I said a few posts ago, it takes a lot of EGO to not follow that kind of leadership. The problem is following them leads to the techs getting burned when the stories start exactly as NBC did with Mr. Reeds input, and then NBC turned around and played the dealerships as innocent victims of bad employees.
In truth there is a lot of blame to go around, and nobody is standing around without some of the mud on their hands.
Well, I can certainly see how less experienced techs could be "indoctrinated" by a dealership's behavior.
I think the main issue I have with examples like the guy with the Mini is we only get to see one side of the argument. My question boils down to this: If the vehicle is running as expected (ie., normally), wouldn't so much suggested maintenance raise a red flag? I'd like to think it would with me.
As Kyfdx posted, 80K miles and 4-5 years are quite a lot before having the Level II inspection.
On the other side of the equation, I've seen owners literally drive a car into the dirt, and only then seek repair. The dash can be lit-up like a Christmas tree and they ignore it, and they'll claim it was running "just fine" and, all of a sudden, it just died.
Then, there's the guy who posts about how his warranty claim has been denied, claiming he was sitting at a red light when his engine either seized or exploded, and he'll swear on a stack of Bibles he had no prior indication of anything amiss. These folks simply must think manufacturers are stupid...
It sure would be nice to get the other side of the story once and a while...
While doc would lead us to believe that being a master tech is more difficult than becoming a brain surgeon (which only requires one decade of study) ... it's basically something most of us could do.
There is one part of this that still begs for a conclusion. It takes fifteen to twenty years for a very intelligent person, who also has the natural skills to be a mechanic to really learn the job today. I'll even go so far as to say that the master mechanic of my early days in the career is a position that simply doesn't exist anymore because there is too much for anyone person to have to learn. Now you don't want to take my word for it, fine but since you don't have first hand experience of what it takes to try and keep up with the technology in the cars today how would you really know what's right and what's not? In short, you can't unless you quit what you are doing right now and try and become a technician.
Should you make such a choice, the chances are that in less than two years you will bail right back out with no doubt citing the working conditions and the poor pay as the reasons for quitting. Should you manage to make it past the two year mark you should have by then have made the step from an apprentice to a worker who handles most of the basic jobs without much assistance. From that point on you'll have to work hard to progress and move up the ladder and we would have to watch to see how long it takes for you top become the best tech in the shop.
Somewhere around ten years in you'll start to realize that the goal line of being a top tech is moving away from you faster than you are able to improve your skills and knowledge. Then when you hit the fifteen to twenty year marks, if you have really devoted yourself you would probably be a pretty good tech and demand the highest possible wages in the trade. Depending on where you live that's somewhere around 50K to 80K.
The only way one could be a "master mechanic" these days is if your mastery were brand-specific.
This brings me back to my point about recycable, no-maintenance cars. It is conceivable that technology will continue to accelerate at such a pace that no technician can learn fast enough to fix anything. He will always be a day behind (figuratively) on the latest gadget in the latest car.
So the day might come when a new car comes in for warranty work at a dealership, and nobody will know what to do.
The only way one could be a "master mechanic" these days is if your mastery were brand-specific.
This brings me back to my point about recycable, no-maintenance cars. It is conceivable that technology will continue to accelerate at such a pace that no technician can learn fast enough to fix anything. He will always be a day behind (figuratively) on the latest gadget in the latest car.
So the day might come when a new car comes in for warranty work at a dealership, and nobody will know what to do.
I don't think we will ever get to that point, but I can foresee the possibility of tiered service shops, in which brand-specific repair facilities are ranked by level, and a problem's symptoms determine which level shop gets the repair job.
It could even be a hybrid solution, in which the dealerships still handle the more mundane problems but escalate the problem vehicles up the ladder to a manufacturer-run repair facility.
If that idea does come to pass, you can be assured the manufacturers will push for major changes in lemon laws, whereby each level gets more than one shot at the repair.
At the end of the day, repair and service of vehicles is a fixable problem. The difficulty is getting all those involved to agree on a solution.
But I do think you are "dead-on" in your comments about brand-specific. I don't really see any getting around that, unless some sort of manufacturer organization is established to standardize most of the mechanicals.... And, we all know the chances of that happening.
I don't claim to have too much hands-on repair expertise anymore ( back in the day I did) , but I have great intuition about cars when I drive them, and very good sensory response. I might not know right away "what" is wrong, but I can sense "something" is wrong very quickly.
I've learned to SHUT UP and not offer unsolicited advice when driving in friends' cars. I hear a timing chain rattle when cold, or feel a bad upshift or downshift, or sense an engine misfire, or smell cooking oil, or watch the steering wheel vibrate---I just look out the window and whistle.
However, the smell of gasoline, if it occurs long after startup, *that* I comment upon. Also the big red BRAKE warning light on the dash will get my attention.
Comments
Doc, didn't you just say a few posts back that your hearing has been compromised considerably in past years compared to when you first opened shop? Can you really not imagine that when you lose one sense, other senses kick in often with authority? When a person loses their sight, it is a scientific fact that their sense of smell, hearing and touch can all become more acute. Can you really not imagine situations where one or more of those senses could help them not only troubleshoot something quicker than you, but maybe even find something you couldn't at all?
And Steve already has elaborated with a damn good example of how one disability can reveal strengths in other senses that some people can't imagine unless they live it. It really doesn't take a rocket scientist to have that level of imagination, doc. Getting a whiff of bowel, while might have been a TV plot, is TOTALLY freakin' realistic! If anything, it is more representative of the quality of writing on M.A.S.H..and no doubt contributed to its success. Or are you a medical doctor too? If so, then you might get my car but not me..with such a narrow minded and defensive outlook on everything. You really do repeat yourself a lot. Pretty sure we (the regulars) get it by now. What you don't seem to get, is that with such a stubborn, dismissive attitude, you really might miss something on my car, that the blind guy might catch. And in potentially less time. That's the point here...not so much that it probably would take him longer to do things, but that he might actually be able to do something YOU CAN'T! Or troubleshoot something quicker than you. Now I know that's gonna be a big pill for ya to consider trying to swallow, but so be it.
Anyway, I think it is demeaning and disrespectful to constantly insist someone answer a question that you have set up in bully fashion, assuming the answer is going to pad your repertoire of self-fulling prophecies, when in actual fact he was graciously side-stepping (your probable claim) the answer with real world examples, and in so doing, was giving you an out. But of course, no good deed goes unpunished..
You probably won't even know what I'm trying to point out here, but I thought someone should try at least. I thought I'd try to do you a favor rather than let ya suffer in confusion.. :shades:
Anyway...with all that said, it's true that Steve is guilty of baiting sometimes..I've seen it a number of times... but I don't think that is what he was up to this time around.
It's been suggested before but it seems to roll off you like water on a duck's back..but you should try to lighten up more. And since that advice skirts a little close to potentially hypocritical ground for me, I'll acknowledge that potential and remind myself of that very same thing..but who better to remind you again than me right?? :P
Hope my sincerity has come through this post, cuz I'm not trying to lambast ya..
(and FWIW, found a small (lengthwise oddly enough??) crack in my vacuum line to the power brake booster) almost like a cut even. Just a hard spot of rubber I guess. Certainly premature in my books, but who knows what mighta happened to it on the line or wherever).
Nonetheless, even with it fixed, there sure ain't much vacuum assist time left in reserve after engine is shut down. I'm certain many of my older vehicles had more than this. Anyway mystery solved and is much better..
Had started to write same thing, at this point seems useless. Guess we will have to learn to accept each other as is... warts and all.
And man, my throttle plate was carboned up the worst I've ever seen it. Hopefully I got most of it cleaned out and hopefully the "sensor safe" aerosol won't wipe out whatever is downstream. Just need to find a bottle of Techron and my spring tune-up will be complete.
I still was able to wear my high school senior sweater to a Sock Hop and Auction our Kiwanis Club had last week and it fit...kinda.
The gals couldn't wear me out on the dance floor either!
His side stepping the question is explained far easier than that. The cost to employ a blind technician or other similarly challenged individual would in all fairness raise his prices and he doesn't want that in any shape or fashion. He doesn't want to pay what we have to charge in this financially crippled trade when its staffed by able bodied people. JMHO
Pretty sure we (the regulars) get it by now. What you don't seem to get, is that with such a stubborn, dismissive attitude, you really might miss something on my car, that the blind guy might catch
So how is anyone supposed to take a statement like that without being insulted by it? "you really might miss something on my car, that the blind guy might catch"
After 35+ years of that kind of crap I take my time and prove exactly what is going on with my customers cars. Just today I was doing some house keeping (between posts) in the shop while I was patiently working at getting a random no-start to occur on a Ford Ranger. Anyone can google and find that the fuel pump is listed as a possible cause. But until its truly proven its only a guess and guessing will kill you in this trade. Now the way it was proven while reasonably simple from my perspective is something high tech enough that you will find rare in the trade, and non existant outside of it. Yet it's not the successes that seem to matter, the only thing that seems to matter is the suggestion of some potential failure, and the double suggestion that someone with no real reason to have equal training and knowledge will succeed beyond my limitations. And you wonder why I tend to be defensive.
Doc, didn't you just say a few posts back that your hearing has been compromised considerably in past years compared to when you first opened shop? Can you really not imagine that when you lose one sense, other senses kick in often with authority?
It's now down to 40% over 3000 hz and I can't hear anything at all over 6000hz. The doctor says there is nothing that can be done to totally restore it but amplification would help for a while.
The part everyone is missing is how consumers react to handicaps. On several occasions its been clear that my hearing loss has inconvenienced some of them. 'What do you mean you can't hear high pitches, and you can't hear that noise? What kind of a mechanic are you?" said one woman.
But you didn't, right?
I feel so guilty; I changed the oil in my '02 all by myself. I should have taken it to a neophyte tech so he could screw it up and then "learn" from his mistakes. Who knows? He might have cut his teeth at Tire Kingdom and learned to loosen all the lug nuts on at least one wheel whenever he performed an oil change... :P
Carry on...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
So how is anyone supposed to take a statement like that without being insulted by it? "you really might miss something on my car, that the blind guy might catch"
I wasn't trying to insult you. I was attempting to be as pragmatic as you claim to be. The difference is, I am beginning to realize the level of literalness thinking that you seem to practice. It's greater than I realized. You can dish it out, but you seem to hurt easily.
When that chap lost his sight but continued to work on carbs, do you not think that in so doing he was holding on with dear life to his trade, not unlike the commitment that you display? Not to put words in your mouth, but it does seem like you basically dismiss and belittle the guys efforts to keep serving. Where would that put you if your customers were as critical of your new hearing deficit? I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that you probably would defend to your customers that while your hearing is not what it once was, you still have a lot to offer them in vehicle repair. Do you not think that that blind chap feels the same way?
Anyway, something tells me I'm probably beating a dead horse here, so I'll drop it. Who knows...maybe this conviction you display has been behind the level of success that you have had. Let's hope you don't suffer a disability more crippling than your hearing cuz life (and customers) can be even more unsympathetic. Your stance on this proves it.
This topic reminds me of another old saying regarding a stubborn old carpenter who finally saw the light about something that had him stumped..
"I see said the blind carpenter as he picked up his hammer and saw."
It's not belittling what he was doing, nor what he did in the past before he lost his sight. You have never been in the trade, have you? There is no support for anyone who can't pull their own weight. There really isn't much for those who can either. No matter where I worked the only thing we ever heard was how someone else was better at whatever and none of us were ever going to be any good. It never mattered what we accomplished we always had to take a backseat to someone else.
Having re-built a few thousand of carbs in my career I'd like to think that I got pretty good at it. There are portions of that job that would be impossible without vision and someone else would have to perform those steps. Ironically, they are the exact steps that take the job from one that would still cause the car to run rough, stumble and stall at times to one that worked like the car did when it was new. GM's bubble level for all of the choke settings was exactly one of those portions of the job with a Q-jet. Ford's VV carb which was set up with a dial indicator was easily another. The little tweaks and adjustments the morning after the rebuild required driving the car and while manipulating the throttle feel the engines A/F ratio to know if some section of the carb was a little too rich or lean and that simply can't be done from the passengers seat.
Anyway, something tells me I'm probably beating a dead horse here, so I'll drop it. Who knows...maybe this conviction you display has been behind the level of success that you have had.
There is no doubt that my habit of studying after hours is directly related to how I and other techs were treated on the job by employers as well as by the customers. I used that negative energy to push myself to continually study and learn in a positive fashion. Yet even here it apparently still hasn't been enough.
Let's hope you don't suffer a disability more crippling than your hearing cuz life (and customers) can be even more unsympathetic. Your stance on this proves it.
It's a bit late for that, I started out with a particular challenge that was never understood and addressed when I was a kid. Now with liver damage from the chemicals in the shop, A-Fib, total loss of feeling in my arms and hands, can't see up close without glasses. (hate how hard it is to see when everything underhood is black) my measure is still my shortcomings, not any successes. But that's OK really, I'm used to it. All that I am doing with this is trying to show how poorly many consumers really do treat shops and techs, and how much more there is to really understand exactly what techs do today to work on these cars. When I got the Ranger to act up yesterday, the fuel pump circuit was drawing twenty-one amps of current, but its the way the current rose as the circuit was turned on and off that proves exactly where the fault in the circuit is. To get that information required measuring the current with the PICOscope with a low amps probe connected in a strategic location, and then it still took patience and a good plan to get the problem to occur. I mentioned earlier that you could use google and you would find the fuel pump as a possible cause, but there are quite a number of other possible causes too. If we would just change the pump and this time it didn't fix the car then that would end up being our measure. The problem is that it should be the effort that went into proving that the fuel pump is in fact bad that should be.
Now, it seems its moved more towards a "me against the world" stage (actually, its more like "the world against me").
Too bad... Ego can be so destructive at times...
This is the car that I mentioned awhile back, that had issues with stalling out and not re-starting, or simply refusing to start at all. It would usually happen at work. It would get me to work, no trouble at all, but in the evening, it would often refuse to start. It would crank, but wouldn't fire up. So, I'd get a ride home, drive another car to work the next day, and lo and behold, the sucker would fire right up. So then I'd drive it home and get a ride back to work.
Anyway, the previous mechanic did some work on it, said he fixed it and proudly proclaimed that he wouldn't be afraid to drive the car ANYWHERE (his emphasis). And then it stalled out around the corner from his shop. He couldn't get it to re-start, said that he gave up, and then almost as if the car wanted to slight him, the next time I turned the key it fired right up.
Since then, the car has started developing other issues. I think the starter is beginning to fail. Sometimes it just clicks when you turn the key, like it's on a dead spot, but then sometimes it turns over and then starts clicking. Sometimes it fires right up. I'm sure that was putting a strain on the battery, which would drain down, and then make it even harder to start.
It's also stuck on fast idle, and I wasn't able to get it to kick down. But oddly, when I'd shift out of park and into gear, it would lunge ahead and then stall out. But, thankfully it re-started. It behaved on the trip out for the most part, although when coming to a stop, sometimes it would start to sputter, so I had to two-foot it (one on the brake, one on the gas).
Oh, and once I got it to the shop's parking lot and I shut it off, I tried turning it back on, to see how it would act. Fired right up. I have a bad feeling that this is going to be one of those intermittent issues where the car suddenly behaves itself for the mechanic, only to act up again once I get it back!
And, if this mechanic can't get it sorted out, and it begins stalling again, don't worry Cardoc, I won't bad-mouth him. :P This guy isn't the type to boast about how he can fix anything, pompously brag about how it's fixed, only to have it break a few minutes later. If this guy can't figure it out, he'll let me know!
I'd take a look at:
- bad ignition switch
- a fuel tank venting issue
- fuel flow blockage somewhere/water in the fuel?
- a temperature related or abrasion related coil wire
- neutral/Park related lockout switch
Don't rule out the chance that whatever the mechanic worked on could still be behind the issue. Not saying that to be critical of the guy, it's just that when wiring is disturbed, fuel systems cleaned etc etc it can create/dislodge new similar issues.
I'd definitely try to get your high idle choke setting fixed so that it isn't so hard on the tranny slamming into gear. Maybe a broken choke return spring/sticky choke cam...also potentially related to the drivability issue.
If th ignition switch does happen to be part of the problem, make sure you don't have bulky key rings and masses of keys and do-dads. Guys sometimes have a lot of keys on the ring...chics tend to have huge heavy white-metal do-dads and ornaments hanging off their key rings. The swinging around while driving and going over bumps creates a real intermittent ailment that can take awhile to piece it together. I watched a girl at Walmart once, attempting to pull her keys outta her purse and couldn't believe the trail of paraphernalia she had. There were chains and rings and stuff...it just kept kept coming...She even had a small flashlight on there! lol
As for the previous mechanic, the first time I had taken the car to him, he said it was the carburetor, and sent it out to have it rebuilt. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean it was rebuilt correctly, or adjusted properly. Anyway, that did nothing to solve the problem. The next time it went in was the time it died right around the corner. I can't remember what he did to it that time, but he also worked on the power steering, which was starting to leak, and did some brake work, and something else I can't remember. I do remember though, that it had to go back a couple more times because the back brakes kept grabbing. And as for the stalling/refusing to start issue, he kept insisting there was nothing wrong with it.
I have a feeling that there's a problem (probably multiple problems) with the Lean Burn system. Sometimes I wish I picked a decade other than the 70's to be nostalgic about.
Poor guy though...feeling like the car was trying to slight him...haha If there is anything on earth more heartless and without feeling, it's gotta be our cars.
While its dead its easy, its when its playing the hide and go seek game that it really gets tough. What happens is you can find things that are problems, but that doesn't mean that they are THE problem.
It's also stuck on fast idle, and I wasn't able to get it to kick down. But oddly, when I'd shift out of park and into gear, it would lunge ahead and then stall out. But, thankfully it re-started. It behaved on the trip out for the most part, although when coming to a stop, sometimes it would start to sputter, so I had to two-foot it (one on the brake, one on the gas).
The fast idle cam has to be synchronized with the choke plate. If the cam is too high, you stay on fast idle too long, too low and it drops off of fast idle the moment you touch the throttle. The choke pull-off should open the choke plate enough to move it off of the top step of the cam to at least the second step, if not the third. The stalling and starting right back up without having to hold your foot to the floor to clear a flood suggests that the main metering is either too lean, or at the least the choke plate is being opened too far by the choke pull-off. That is part of the seat of the pants feel that it takes to set these up.
Since this doesn't fire with ether that suggests that you are either losing spark, or have insufficient spark. Just taking the coil wire out of the distributor and letting it arc to a valve cover isn't though to prove that you have good spark.
To get spark you must have good power to the ignition controller and that means while the module is turning the coil on as well. My regular service information doesn't go back to 79, so I have to go by memory for now. (That's usually a bad idea) I would expect that this has a ballast resistor and does not use full 12v for the coil during normal operation. This also probably has a relay to bypass the ballast resistor when cranking so that there is more power available to the coil. Common failures were the ballast resistor, the relay, the controller and the pick-up in the distributor. Chrysler TSB's had techs eliminate the lean burn system and that solved many of the problems people had with them.
We all have our crosses to bear, and of course that's one of mine. There are however a couple of things that nobody else here would know or consider.
The blind mechanic who was rebuilding carbs story that I recall occurred somewhere around 90-91. The store manager found it and showed it to myself and another tech while he cut down several other techs in our shop and he used the line, "look a blind guy can build carbs, why can't XXXX, and YYYYY and ZZZZZ especially with all of his ASEs?"
So maybe that wasn't the main intent of the story, I only know how it was used around us plus the fact that I would not be able to work to the level that I need to without my eyesight.
With that kind of management it took ego, tons of it, to not cave in and start selling the gravy services that we call wallet flushing today and instead concentrate on just fixing the broken cars. So yea, too much EGO sucks, but this tiger can't change his stripes and I wouldn't be doing what I can do today without it.
I do recall that Chryslers of that vintage were sometimes miserable to get running correctly. I remember a lot of guys hated to work on them and those Thermo Quad carbs could be nasty.
Then, those were dark days as emission requirements got tougher and the car manufacturers struggled to keep up and still produce cars that ran fairly well.
Guys would curse the Varible Venturi carbs too but for those who took the time to understand how they worked got pretty good at them.
Can't be too many of them!
What everyone needs to remember about stories such as this is that they are anecdotal.
For example, there's a video on YouTube in which you can see someone teaching dogs to drive a car (on a closed course). Now, even if my Doberman somehow learns to drive well enough to pilot the Indy 500 pace car, I'm not riding with him behind the wheel.
Just because SOMEONE can do SOMETHING well doesn't really mean anything to anyone, other than that particular person.
When I was attending a military academy during my high school, I (like all other cadets) learned how to disassemble and reassemble an M-1 rifle in the dark. It's been over 40 years since I've done it, but I suspect I could still do it today.
That ability, and a $5 bill, will get me a cup of coffee at Starbucks.
My point?
Just because someone can do something doesn't make it a valuable asset, nor does it create a demand for that ability.
A blind man rebuilding the carb on MY car? It wouldn't be my first choice of a person to do the job. Even if he's the best at it, it hardly translates to anything other than an aberration of the normal.
Don't get me wrong, I'm proud for the guy. I'm willing to bet, though, he'd be the first one to admit the difficulties associated with the job and his physical limitations.
An M-1? wow, you must be even older than I am. In the Army, my company was one of the very last to use M-14's.
We would see other companies running with their lightweight M-16's and be jealous.
And, yeah, I took it apart a few times too.
From: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/anecdotal
adj.
1. also an·ec·dot·ic (-dtk) or an·ec·dot·i·cal (--kl) Of, characterized by, or full of anecdotes.
2. Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis: "There are anecdotal reports of children poisoned by hot dogs roasted over a fire of the [oleander] stems" (C. Claiborne Ray).
I'm not disputing that you saw the man do the work, but can you attest to how well the work was performed?
How well did the rebuilt parts perform?
Even if the guy was the best carb rebuilder ever, at the end of the day, he's still a fluke, which is the point I was making. It's not an occupation one finds many blind people working in.
Regarding the rifles, I was at a military academy, not West Point... We got the leftovers from the previous century, although I will say the smoke grenades were quite a bit of fun...
Of course this guy was a fluke!
How would I know how well the work was performed? He was a dealership mechanic and I know he was there for quite some time.
Let's just try to pick the specks out of the pepper! Geez!
Not my intent at all. But, it remains anecdotal.
The issue I have with items like this is what conclusions some take away from them.
Kind of like someone saying his uncle Joe drove his cars 100K miles and never changed the oil in any of them.... Just added a quart every now and then.
I'm sure this is the kind of thing that drives Cardoc nuts when he's dealing with a difficult customer.
This is actually an interesting topic. In the LAW, eye-witness accounts do matter in court; in science, and for that matter auto science and diagnosis, eye-witness accounts are at the very bottom of the evidence hierarchy.
This is actually an interesting topic. In the LAW, eye-witness accounts do matter in court; in science, and for that matter auto science and diagnosis, eye-witness accounts are at the very bottom of the evidence hierarchy.
There's a very good reason for that, too. Quite often, eye witness accounts are proven without a doubt to be flat-out wrong.
Getting back to cars, here's an interesting example of how people ignore the facts in front of them and accept accounts and suggestions from people the have never met, nor ever will...
This is from a recent post on the Mini section of Edmund's forums:
I don't know what I have done to upset the gods, but I felt like I walked right into vicious left hook when I took my car to service at the dealership.
I have a 2008 Mini Convertible that is in fine condition. It has done 80K miles (with no major issues), so it was due for Inspection II service. The price quote was $900, which made me almost choke when I heard that price. Is that really a fair price?
On top of that there were so many other repairs apparently urgently that it made me dizzy: fuel injection service ($240), coolant exchange ($240), trunk/hood switch replacement ($200) and Power steering return hose ($450). Those additional repairs came to $1130, bringing the total to $2K. They gave me a token discount of $100.
They also wanted to fix my radiator for $1100 and change 2 tires for another $650, but by the time they mentioned it, somehow I found the strength to whisper: "Stop! No more!"
Have I been ripped off? Is $900 for inspection II really fair? Are all those additional "urgent" repairs they threw in really necessary and priced fairly?
I feel like I’ve been duped and like a fool.
It would make me feel much better if someone could honestly tell me that I’m overreacting and that the dealership treated me fairly.
Any advice on how to negotiate a lower bill with the dealer if I'm being overcharged would be most appreciated.
My prediction: This poor fellow, and his dealership are both going to end up losing out here.
First of all, Mini/BMW products all come with maintenance plan manuals that describe service intervals referred to as Inspection I and II. This is information readily available, but for whatever reason, the owner neglected to read it. He knows it exists, but that's as far as he got.
Instead, the owner is going to get his decision-making information from the web, and a lot of it will end up being completely wrong, and a size able amount will probably be anecdotal.
In the end, the owner is going to feel abused, and the dealership is going to lose a customer.
But, it didn't have to be that way. If the owner had read his manual, and knew what items were included/suggested by BMW/Mini before the service "event", he could have entered the discussion with everything he needed to know in order to make an intelligent decision.
It's a situation where no one wins, and everyone is guilty to some degree.
What a shame.
Dealerships should not permit these upsells. The very nature of a repair facility is a reflection of the state of mind of the owner/manager.
A shop actually has a personality--it is almost, collectively, a "person" in itself.
And, if my supposition is correct, and he has only had three or four Jiffy Lube changes in the last 55K miles, it's not surprising he needs all that work. MINIs aren't exactly famous for being repair free, and they don't respond well to lax maintenance (like most BMW products).
Hey.. I'm starting to sound like doc, here..
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The MINI has Kia Rio car dimensions and BMW 5-series sized repair bills. :P
Maybe our dealer is an aberration...
Certainly, in the short run, I agree. This practice is why so many refer to dealerships as "stealerships", and there isn't anything unique about the practice as it relates to BMW. I've seen this behavior over many product lines over the years. A local Chevy dealership, now out of business, was famous (or should i say notorious) for up charging...
Dealerships should not permit these upsells. The very nature of a repair facility is a reflection of the state of mind of the owner/manager.
As long as commissions/bonuses are paid to service dept. personnel, I don't see any letup in that type of behavior.
Of course, there's a fairly simple solution to much of this. Read the car's manuals, and understand the car's service requirements. One doesn't have to be a top tier mechanic to read a manual.
That'll go a long way towards being treated fairly when going to the dealership service department...
Book says 1.7 hours for the pressure hose + $280 bucks retail for the part.
So here in California, with tax, and $135/hr labor, that works out to $532.
(gasp) :sick:
The poster stated it was the return hose, which is what was replaced on our Mini.
I suspect its a bit less expensive... And after checking Realoem.com, it is... Around $62.00.
Keep in mind that techs who don't sell services like this are not "Team Players", and most have been starved out of their jobs. This goes full circle to why I ever visited here in the first place. Don't attack the techs for doing what the dealers train them to do. They are literally taught that this is what the cars need and learn to accept it as part of their jobs and how to make a living. As I said a few posts ago, it takes a lot of EGO to not follow that kind of leadership. The problem is following them leads to the techs getting burned when the stories start exactly as NBC did with Mr. Reeds input, and then NBC turned around and played the dealerships as innocent victims of bad employees.
In truth there is a lot of blame to go around, and nobody is standing around without some of the mud on their hands.
Wallet Flushing
I think the main issue I have with examples like the guy with the Mini is we only get to see one side of the argument. My question boils down to this: If the vehicle is running as expected (ie., normally), wouldn't so much suggested maintenance raise a red flag? I'd like to think it would with me.
As Kyfdx posted, 80K miles and 4-5 years are quite a lot before having the Level II inspection.
On the other side of the equation, I've seen owners literally drive a car into the dirt, and only then seek repair. The dash can be lit-up like a Christmas tree and they ignore it, and they'll claim it was running "just fine" and, all of a sudden, it just died.
Then, there's the guy who posts about how his warranty claim has been denied, claiming he was sitting at a red light when his engine either seized or exploded, and he'll swear on a stack of Bibles he had no prior indication of anything amiss. These folks simply must think manufacturers are stupid...
It sure would be nice to get the other side of the story once and a while...
Most say "fine"...."great!"
and then I ask--what's that clunk going over bumps?
"What clunk?" they say
then I remark "Do I smell gasoline?" as I gaze out over the frayed windshield wiper blades while kicking the used pepsi cups under the seat. :P
The smell? Probably a 5 gallon can of gas in trunk, where your friend hit a large pothole, and the lid loosened.. then popped off.
There is one part of this that still begs for a conclusion. It takes fifteen to twenty years for a very intelligent person, who also has the natural skills to be a mechanic to really learn the job today. I'll even go so far as to say that the master mechanic of my early days in the career is a position that simply doesn't exist anymore because there is too much for anyone person to have to learn. Now you don't want to take my word for it, fine but since you don't have first hand experience of what it takes to try and keep up with the technology in the cars today how would you really know what's right and what's not? In short, you can't unless you quit what you are doing right now and try and become a technician.
Should you make such a choice, the chances are that in less than two years you will bail right back out with no doubt citing the working conditions and the poor pay as the reasons for quitting. Should you manage to make it past the two year mark you should have by then have made the step from an apprentice to a worker who handles most of the basic jobs without much assistance. From that point on you'll have to work hard to progress and move up the ladder and we would have to watch to see how long it takes for you top become the best tech in the shop.
Somewhere around ten years in you'll start to realize that the goal line of being a top tech is moving away from you faster than you are able to improve your skills and knowledge. Then when you hit the fifteen to twenty year marks, if you have really devoted yourself you would probably be a pretty good tech and demand the highest possible wages in the trade. Depending on where you live that's somewhere around 50K to 80K.
This brings me back to my point about recycable, no-maintenance cars. It is conceivable that technology will continue to accelerate at such a pace that no technician can learn fast enough to fix anything. He will always be a day behind (figuratively) on the latest gadget in the latest car.
So the day might come when a new car comes in for warranty work at a dealership, and nobody will know what to do.
This brings me back to my point about recycable, no-maintenance cars. It is conceivable that technology will continue to accelerate at such a pace that no technician can learn fast enough to fix anything. He will always be a day behind (figuratively) on the latest gadget in the latest car.
So the day might come when a new car comes in for warranty work at a dealership, and nobody will know what to do.
I don't think we will ever get to that point, but I can foresee the possibility of tiered service shops, in which brand-specific repair facilities are ranked by level, and a problem's symptoms determine which level shop gets the repair job.
It could even be a hybrid solution, in which the dealerships still handle the more mundane problems but escalate the problem vehicles up the ladder to a manufacturer-run repair facility.
If that idea does come to pass, you can be assured the manufacturers will push for major changes in lemon laws, whereby each level gets more than one shot at the repair.
At the end of the day, repair and service of vehicles is a fixable problem. The difficulty is getting all those involved to agree on a solution.
But I do think you are "dead-on" in your comments about brand-specific. I don't really see any getting around that, unless some sort of manufacturer organization is established to standardize most of the mechanicals.... And, we all know the chances of that happening.
Most say "fine"...."great!"
and then I ask--what's that clunk going over bumps?
"What clunk?" they say
then I remark "Do I smell gasoline?" as I gaze out over the frayed windshield wiper blades while kicking the used pepsi cups under the seat.
I can tell from that comment that you have ridden with my brother. Stuff only enters his vehicles.... It never leaves them.
I've learned to SHUT UP and not offer unsolicited advice when driving in friends' cars. I hear a timing chain rattle when cold, or feel a bad upshift or downshift, or sense an engine misfire, or smell cooking oil, or watch the steering wheel vibrate---I just look out the window and whistle.
However, the smell of gasoline, if it occurs long after startup, *that* I comment upon. Also the big red BRAKE warning light on the dash will get my attention.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20130325/VIDEO/303259966/service-is-everything-a- t-bmw-of-sterling&cciid=email-autonews-specialvideo#ixzz2P3AXGn00