Mazda Protegé

the_big_h

I've been following the Speed World Challenge series ever since the Proteges got into it last year, it's truly one of the few pro racing series where the cars are actually production-based, from the engine to the body chassis.

"a run of success all season long with a customized, high-performance, race-ready engine uniformly developed for the Mazda Proteges competing in the series."

here's a peek at what's under the hoods of these racing Proteges:

boggse

Did you get one for the front too?

the_big_h

we have a winner!

yes it's the rear sway bar. I replaced the stock 16mm one with the 20mm one from the MP3. I only replaced the rear sway bar, because I want to reduce the understeer tendency of my Protege. FYI, thicker rear sway bar reduces understeer, while thicker front sway bar reduces oversteer.

The effect is dramatic. The understeer has been dramatically reduced. I have yet to make the front tires squeal after I have it on. I now can take onramps at least 10mph faster than with the stock sway bar, if not more. I haven't pushed it to the limit yet, and won't until I've done it at the controlled environment of an autocross track first.

If you think the Protege handles like a dream in stock form, upgrade the rear sway bar and you'll go WOW.

dsm6

Hmm. Thanks for the tip. I'm thinking, as a "low budget" ugrade to the Pro - strut tower brace, front and rear sway bars (all from Mazda Pro performance parts - MP3 parts basically), then maybe some 17s with 245 tires for the summer, with snow tires placed on the factory 16s when the current tires wear out. What do you think?

the_big_h

remember that a thicker front sway bar will INCREASE understeer, so you might want to research about it a bit more before replacing that. Rear sway bar definitely will improve the handling of our front-heavy, understeering FWD Protege, making it feel more neutral.

have you got yourself over to www.protegeclub.com? There are tons of people on that forum that REALLY knows their Protege stuff

shrique

What year did the Protege ES change to the 5 lug style wheel?

newcar31

newcar31

Does your Protege ride a lot stiffer now with that new anti-sway bar?

the_big_h

but a lot more stable on uneven pavements, and more stable on straightaways at highway speed, and the car just sits flat when turning, almost NO LEANING whatsoever, even at 40+ mph!!!! (we're talking about turning at an intersection on the streets).

I have noticed now it goes over big speedbumps a bit harsher than before, but that is a trade-off I am more than willing to take!!!

newcar31

Is that a garage install, or do you need a lift? I have jack stands and and a jack. Final question: How much?

the_big_h

it's a simple bolt-on replacement of the stock sway bar. Let's see, loosen 1 nut each to disconnect the endlinks from the rear struts, 2 nuts and 2 bolts to remove the 2 mounting brackets and bushings, and the stock rear sway bar comes right off. I had to trim the rubber bushings a little bit so the 20mm bar will fit. That's the only 'customizing' job I have to do, everything else bolts right on.

Jack up the rear of the car and put it on stands. Plenty of room to maneuver once it's on stands.

I bought it used off of another guy. He installed a 21mm(!) rear sway bar from AWR racing ( http://www.awrracing.com ) and sold me his used one for $90. He also helped me install it, so it was totally worth it

a full set of MP3 sway bars (front and rear) has an MSRP of $450(!!!) according to MUSA website. If I remember correctly, AWR has a 19mm rear sway bar (including new mounting brackets so no need to trim stock rubber bushings) for like $160. I would suggest buying that if you can't find any used mp3 bar.

dsm6

Its a nice way to neutralize understeer, but ... (a quick word of caution to do with as you will)

Remember a while back when someone (don't remember who) told us about his or her freeway on-ramp spin out in the rain. Basically whomever it was induced oversteer by applying the brake mid-turn on a slippery road. I've put the Pro into a nice neutral slide on dry pavement doing the same thing at higher speeds. You can get a similar but smaller effect just form lifting off the throttle in mid-turn. This tendency will be amplified by stiffening the rear stabilizer bar relative to the front.

Usually its no big deal, and sometimes it's quite desirable - especially for auto-x, etc. - but it can be a big deal if you're on a surface with limited traction and you aren't used to compensating for it. Just something to think about, especially for those who have to drive on snowy roads.

the_big_h

I think that'll be yours truly that went slippin' & slidin' on the onramp

yup, reduced understeer = looser rear end = higher tendency to spin, if not properly controlled, of course

trust me, after that incident, I have been driving EXTRA slow in rain, don't want that to happen with other cars around me.

We will see what this winter shall bring, more slippin' & slidin' maybe? ;D

dsm6

As you said, now you're extra careful in the rain. Compensate for it, and you're OK. Sometimes it is hard to do anything but slam on the brakes full force, though. You feel that car start to slip and you just automatically go for that brake pedal. Been there, done that, and probably will again.

maltb

As painful as this may sound hank, the larger the stabilizer bar, the lesser the effect of independent rear suspension. So be weary of the fact that you are more like that despised sentra...lol.

gandalf17

SR Motosports who have several mods for anyone wanting aftermarket parts for their Pro's. They have some Mazdaspeed components also for the engine and suspension.

Enjoy.

the_big_h

I figured that an indep. rear suspension tied together by a thicker sway bar will reduce their 'independent-ness' (couldn't think of a better word) and make it a slightly harsher ride on really bumpy roads with big potholes. But I highly doubt it's as harsh as a true beam axle like the Sentra has

And since the MP3 comes with these thick sway bars stock, are you also suggesting the MP3 is more 'sentra-like' than the stock Protege?

theparallax

Nice job Hank. I've wanted those MP3 sway bars for a while but I never thought of those AWR sway bars you showed me. I emailed the site asking how much it was, etc. I'll order one of these babies if it is relatively cheap.

How hard is a front sway bar installation? I heard you have to drop the subframe to get to it, and that seems like a time-consuming thing.

maltb

independent suspension is about traction in bumps and comfort. The closer you get to a track car, the less this stuff matters.

dinu01

Took my cousin's 2000 Z24 for a 150km ride to Lake Erie about 3 weeks ago. That car feels VERY front-heavy and the back end bounces a little on the highway at high speeds.

I guess that goes for all coupes?

For some reason, all my girl friends (friends that happen to be girls - to avoid unnecessary posts) ask if the PRO comes in a coupe version. Why doesn't it? I would like a PRO coupe. Besides the Civil, Crapalier/Sunburn, there aren't others.

Dinu

ashutoshsm

I don't get it.

- Less head room front and rear
- less leg room front and rear
- reduced structural rigidity
- difficult entrance/egress to back seat
- smaller windows, partial view out the side for rear seat passengers obstructed)
- oversize doors - I avoid parking next to coupes in parking lots
- absolutely no improvement in handling (reduced rigidity possible detriment)
- (on some coupes - GM's especially) seat belts for front seats latched on real odd, and possibly less safe than being on B pillar (as in Sedans)

All for a slightly more sporty "appearance" and pretensions? Surely blasphemous to even mention a coupe in the Protege forum, me thinks!

I doubt anyone in Europe, or anywhere else for that matter buys coupes!

alternator

a coupe would have "reduced structural rigidity"? Since a four-door sedan has more large holes in the overall structure (the added two door openings), coupes have always been noted for better structural integrity than four-door sedans. How has that changed?

dinu01

It would just look a little sportier, that's all. OK, in the next few days I will "cut" a picture of a PRo in 2 and create a PRO coupe.

Dinu

chicagopro

Got back into town yesterday...had difficulty getting onto Edmunds today from work. Yes, that's right, summer vacation is no more

While I was in NJ, I had a rental...they gave me a Mitsu Lancer. (I was just soooooo glad it wasn't a Cavalier!)

Very loosey-goosey steering, no OD button. Didn't handle the turns quite as well as the Pro, seems to me.

Comfortable inside, though.

kaiserhead

Congrats on 40kms, I just celebrated 70kms,no squeeks, rattles or rolls. You're right, the rear seats DO have a lot of room, enough to fit two adults comfortably. hehehehehe!!!

anonymousposts

I'm kinda late to the game but I have to question putting 1 different tire on the front of your car? Especially one with a different speed rating? Different tread patterns, tire construction, and speed ratings could cause detriment especially on such a "premium" car with such a "premium" suspension.

Sway bars seem to do wonders for cars. My significant other put front and rear sway bars on his car and it made the structure seem alot more solid.

the_big_h

that's the reason it's a bad idea to mix the fronts or the rears individually. You don't want the left front tire to grip faster than the right front tire during emergency braking.

maltb

I bet H cars could handle it...lol. Did anyone say they were putting one different tire on their pro? I think the point was they weren't going to do that. Rather, they were replacing at least 2.

Speaking of your S/O, is he still around edmunds? You never know who is who, just different names seem to pop up with a lot of prior TH knowledge.

protegextwo

Don't tell me the Honda couple are back? MaltB, I thought they got the hook for battling the hosts over the r*** debate. Naah,....?

On topic, I love both my 2000 PRO-ES's. The twins are now 30 months old with a tick over 41,500 miles, that averages to about 16,600 miles a year. They really are holding up very nicely.

-larry

mdaffron

My 2000 ES is at 41,200 miles and it's only 27 months old. I'm doing 18,311 a year. Doing well. Did you get both of your cars their new ignition coils yet?

Meade

mazdafun

Not at work, driving my Pro!

Had a Dodge Stratus for a week. What a junker. Bouncy, non-communicative and non-confidence-inspiring is all I can say about that car's suspension. Oh, and poor visibility out of the car, much like the Neon. For a car of that size, it feels smaller than my Pro. I could also fit the same amout of luggage into either (and that's with the "toolkit" I keep in my Pro's trunk all the time).

Too bad I didn't have my Pro. It would've enjoyed PCH and CA2. Man, did I miss my car.

vocus

I am the one who put different tires on the car. I slit my right front tire, and replaced it with a different brand and speed rating. I shouldn't have done that, I know. I might just order another Marshall Power Racer tire for the left front. I wish I could replace the right rear with the left front, because the RR has less tread it looks like. My tires are unidirectional though, so I can't do it.

I put different tires on my 1999 Protege DX. I lost a tire at 9500 miles, and replaced it with another brand, but the same speed rating. Never had adverse affects, up to 38K when I traded the car. Maybe it was because the speed rating was different...

vocus

Since other people on this website (me not being one of them) have heard of Marshall Power Racer tires before, where the heck can I get them? I tried on TireRack.com, and they are not available. Where else can I get them? Thanks.

The tire is actually pretty good for its cost, I think. No trouble with performance or traction at all. And it handles just as well as the Michelins do, for less than half the price.

mdaffron

As usual, I have to do EVERYBODY'S research on the Town Hall. About five minutes with Google turned up a review of your tires in the UK that gave them a 5 out of 10:

"I'm not going to say these are the best tyres you can get because obviously they are not, however I had them fitted as a `package deal` on some 15" OZ alloys and did not expect much from them as they were cheap, they suprised me. I have a MK1 Supercharger conversion with oversized pulley and often give some right foot - these tyres so far haev been fine (in the dry) with NO scary moments - the grip seems great for such a budget tyre. In the wet there is a little `wheel spin` when planting the throttle (but that happens anyway) also the grip is not as good in the wet and I do not feel as safe to go fast.
To Sum up Very Good dry tyre (for the price) average wet tyre - also they don`t seem to wear that fast!"

They're manufactured by Kumho, introduced in 1995. Here's a link to their site:

http://www.michelinkorea.com/kuho/power-racer2.htm

They are sold as Marshall tires by the well-known brand "Hercules" in the U.S.:

http://www.herculestire.com/marshal/#

I would recommend calling someone who stocks Kumho tires and asking if they can order them.

Meade

vocus

If that spot weren't 550 miles away (in NC), I would have done that.

Thanks for the links. I called Firestone here in MD (the company that I dealt with when I was in NC), and they said they never heard of the brand (dummies). I thought they would sell the same brand in all stores, but I guess not.

I was just lucky in NC, they only had one of these tires in the store and I bought it (maybe not so, though).

vocus

I followed the link above, and the one I have is the Marshal Power Racer 717. So I called Hercules, and asked for a store location in MD. They gave me one, then I asked about the tire itself. She was like, "oh, we don't carry that tire. We only carry the light truck tires for that company." Isn't that a kick in the crack?

So the only way to get one, I presume, is to drive back to NC and get one at the same place. It will be a cold day in Hell before I do that though. I will just replace the left front tire soon, because it will be worn soon anyway (I have 20K now).

mdaffron

I wouldn't blame Firestone. In addition to Marshall tires, Hercules is responsible for such well-known (hee hee) brand names as Hercules, Merit and Signet tires. Ever heard of any of them? Sounds like the lineup at your local K-Mart.

BTW, how much did you pay for that tire? And, have you considered calling that Firestone in North Carolina and asking THEM where you can get one up in Maryland? Or who their supplier is and then contact the supplier yourself?

And BTW, what does this have to do with Proteges? I'm answering because I'm a friend and I want to help, but I suggest you go over to one of the tire discussions. You'll probably get better results asking in the proper discussion.

Meade

vocus

I appreciate the help.

I paid $100 for the tire that I got. Comparable tires were 2-3 times MORE, including Michelin.

And this conversation started about Proteges when someone said about putting mismatched tires on their Protege. Then I asked a question about it, and everyone started responding.

mdaffron

Call this toll-free number:

800-677-9535

It's Hercules Tire Distribution Services. Maybe they can offer a suggestion.

Meade

pat

And looky here, nearly 1700 useful and fascinating messages right here in the Town Hall: Tires, Tires, Tires.

mdaffron

I was gonna recommend that one (hung out there myself right after I bought my Dunlops, and can you imagine I didn't even start a flame war there!), but I didn't know which one would be best -- since there are so many tire discussions it's dizzying!

Meade

P.S. Please check your e-mail. Thanks.

anonymousposts

My sister had different sized/brand tires on her Camaro a while back (the Camaro has since been traded) and it drove me nuts. I always try to check the major tire places for deals. We were able to get some 225/60/16 Michelin X-One tires for $110.

dinu01

Indeed, you can fit A LOT of things inside a PRO. We are moving this week and I have already made many trips to the new place with a full PRO every time. VERY roomy. VERY VERY roomy

Dinu

the_big_h

some of the guys that were at MAPP3 were so impressed with the turnout, Meade's effort, and all the Proteges that showed up, that we are going to set a meet up right here in northern Virginia!

OK here's the deal, we are going to set up a meet/BBQ on September 14th, at one of these parks in Falls Church, VA:

http://www.co.fairfax.va.us/parks/picnics/fallnics.htm

we are going to reserve either Olney Park or Roundtree Park, depending on availability. Both are a short drive off the DC beltway (I-495) and I-66.

We welcome ALL Mazda Protege drivers/owners, heck, we even welcome other Mazda cars!

post here if you are interested in attending

oh yeah, there WILL be food at the meet. Gotta meet the high standard Meade has set for all future Mid-Atlantic Protege meets!!! :-D

mdaffron

You have inflated my ego to the point of combustion, Hank!

Meade

gandalf17

Your ego had already imloded a long time ago.

chikoo

I actually admire the Honda method of reducign sway.
Just look behind the rear of a CR-V and you will see what I mean.
It does not have a sway bar(aka beam axle).
It has tie rods that ties the body of the car to the lower suspension arms. The distance between the lower arms and the body can be decreased but not increased. This prevents sway in either direction, but still allows for great bump soaking travel.

Check it out.

mdaffron

But I must admit it's true ...

Meade

newcar31

"It does not have a sway bar(aka beam axle)."

An anti-sway bar is not a beam axle. Two different things.

chikoo

a sway bar, as we know it, is a thin beam axle.
if you make it thick enough, it is as good as a beam axle.