There's another reason I chose against ABS in my Protege, and thankfully it supported my other reasons so there was no decision to make.
(Before the "Fountain of All Knowledge, Past and Present" comes down on me, let me assure you that this was a 2000 ES and no, I'm not in a position to trade up right now -- and nothing would be as financially stupid as getting out of a 2-year-old car and into a new one. Been there, done that too and learned the lesson from it when I was a young fella.)
Plain and simple, I'm a big fat guy. Not as fat as I was when I bought the car -- I'm about 40 pounds lighter now. (My seats thank me -- ever heard foam and upholstery scream in agony?)
My '92 LX had a sunroof. After about a month of driving it I cursed that sunroof. My head was always bumping the headliner, my hair was always getting caught in the sunroof when I closed it, and once it failed in the parking lot at work -- and thank God I still knew where the manual crank was or I would've flooded the car in the shower that started within a half-hour of successful, manual closure.
I really liked the feel you got with a sunroof though -- the breeze, the sun (better yet, the moonlight) -- so when I went to buy my '00, I gave the car the benefit of the doubt and tried the sunroof again. Nope. Same thing. And to get it I needed to buy ABS as well. So there we had it -- two good reasons to avoid the optional expense.
Well it seemed to work for me, mostly. I wanted the 2.0L engine, the 2001 styling, no power windows, ABS, and air. I would have like rims and the spoiler, but c'est la vie.
I really think that this is something lacking. I've read articles on the 'net that point to ABS's lack of better statistics, and many point to the fact that most drivers w/ ABS just plain don't understand how to use it.
There's more than just stomping on the brake. People have to realize that instead of just stomping, they have to steer. Since your wheels don't totally lock up w/ ABS, you are able to still steer, and by doing so, hopefully avoiding the accident rather than just stopping short of it.
There really should be a "manual" on how to use ABS.
One nice thing that came with my 98 Cherokee was a video explaining how to use the ABS system. I think all manufacturers should consider something like this. Maybe even make you watch it (about 10 minutes) while you are waiting for them to fill out their 100 acre forest of paperwork? It especially helped my wife, who was trained to pump the brakes to prevent skidding.
Barest of instruction. Minimum of time spent at the wheel. No time spent (as I recall) on emergency situations (wet surfaces, loose surfaces, sudden hard braking etc.). And those simulators they used were just not up to the task.
Then we send drivers out with licenses and don't bother to re-test them unless they cause some major havoc.
I, for one, wouldn't mind having to endure a road-test every time I renew my license if it'd improve the driving ability of the general public.
Oops. I guess this post belongs on the posse board.
I think the Protege handles great in emergency manuevers, ABS or not. Have had to scoot around other cars, things and critters a few times already. Fast response, no sloppy handling like the previous-gen Corolla/Prizm (when I put it through a simulated slalom in a parking lot...anyone going on a test drive with me better buckle up snugly).
Mike was right when he said the ABS topic would result in a flame war.
People, people...it's just a car.
ABS--three words...maybe even read them in some article here on Edmunds--Step, Stay, and Steer.
STEP (or stomp, as you prefer) on the brakes.
STAY on the brakes...don't let up, even though you feel them pulsing.
STEER around whatever is giving you the problem (while continuing to stay on the brakes).
Yeah, I learned about pumping the brakes when I was in driver ed, too...back when the dinosaurs roamed the earth. Since I spent the next couple dozen years NOT driving, though, I really didn't have much to unlearn when I bought my Protege with ABS.
True, though, many folks out there don't know what the heck it is.
A fellow teacher was giving me a ride home a couple of winters ago, and her car started skidding. She wondered if she should be pumping the brakes. I asked if she had ABS, and she asked me what that was. We discovered that her late model Sebring did, in fact, have it, and I told her what to do.
We could probably make all sorts of cases for "Yeah, but in MY situation, ABS wouldn't help..."
First line under "Member Conduct" in the Town Hall Member Agreement: "Town Hall welcomes all points of view on automotive matters."
Of course it does. Sometimes it's necessary to point out where another's point of view is flawed. I certainly am not beyond reproach and have never claimed to be. I have and will admit when I am wrong if it is pointed out, but I do try to take the time to understand something before I spout off about it.
As far as your truck is concerned, if it was a '94 (I think you said that before) it only had rear wheel ABS which is nowhere comparable to a car with 4-wheel, 3 or 4 channel ABS. Again, practicing panic stops is something everybody should do. ABS can be frightening if you are not accustomed to the sensation. A video as Ted referred to would be a great tool.
As far as personal attacks go, I'm still trying to understand where I made a single personal attack on anyone. On the other hand Sir Daffron, referring to me as a coward or the "Fountain of All Knowledge, Past and Present" would be a personal attack.
Drum brakes came on the rear of my PRO. But I want discs too! Why can't all manufactureres make cars with front and rear discs, w/out ABs - or offer ABS standard or for a small fee?
The nice person at MUSA who answered my email said that the list of mazdaspeed dealers hasn't been released yet. It should be available within the next few weeks.
Someone throw out a new Protege topic for discussion. I'm sure this group can fill a few hundred posts worth on it. I mean, we filled up about 50 posts just on windshield wipers.
Here's one: Did you know that the Pro's engine runs at the perfect temperature for baking a potato? Zoom-zoom shake and bake.
"The steering capability of the ABS while braking has save me from an accident?"
Bruno
PS: I have expressed several times (may be not here) the reasons why I do not like ABS, and I don't really wish to repeat it here. Some might disagree and I respect fully their opinion.
ABS saved me from sliding under a tractor trailer when I first started driving, in the rain. I only had one car thus far without ABS (my 1999 Pro DX), but don't plan to have another.
I distinctly remember hurriedly glancing through the ads section in Sunday's Washington Post, and saw that Brown's Fairfax Mazda ad had a little blurb "Pre-order your Mazda Speed now!". I forgot about it until now! I'm gonna go pick up brochures, and drool!
If the car only had more power, you could add another potato or two, or maybe some corn or green beans. Although, it does handle and brake well enough to do Jiffy Pop.
I don't think either would be very good at all for baking potatoes. How would you keep them strapped on? I don't know.
If you could work that out, discs would be better because they would dissipate more heat into the potato and would give more consistent cooking stop to stop for a nice even bake. The front brakes really do most of the cooking anyway so it doesn't really matter whether or not the rears are discs or drums, from a culinary standpoint at any rate.
We must all remember though, that every cooking system must have enough cooking oil or else the discs and drums will not heat up when stopping (b/c there just won't be any stopping). That and keeping the stove portion clean of any debris, perhaps machining it to keep it nice and shiny.
I'm thinking bailing wire tied to the calipers. Of course if you painted your calipers red you'd want to use red potatoes to match. Yellow calipers = yellow potatoes, etc.
any chef would tell you, that food must make a nice contrast on the plate, for presentation purposes, so maybe a red potato on yellow calipers would be nice. Maybe the discs could be orange then, to keep with the theme...
Dinu
Your new self-appointed Protege disc brake decorator
I remember my Integra having some kind of "high pressure hose" that had to do with my ABS. I cannot remember the interval Acura recommends to replace this hose, but I do know that it costs quite a bit. Does the Protege need to have it's "high pressure ABS hose" replaced at a certain interval also? Lets keep the comments out of the gutter about the "high pressure hose".
I do think ABS is helpful in certain situations. I remember when it was snowy out, I would purposely try to engage the ABS on my Integra on side streets and try it out. It worked nice and you could steer while you were braking...kind of. I never really *needed* it though. I guess getting ABS is similiar to getting insurance that I probably will never need. I use snow tires on my 01 ES and it is by far much better in the winter than the Integra with all seasons and ABS. The snow tires and steel wheels are cheaper than ABS too. I have also heard that in snowy/icy conditions with winter tires, it is often benificial to lock up for shorter stopping distances, which is impossible with ABS.
I'm a little surprised that Pat is referring to something as starchy.
High pressure hose? I am going for a few beers tonight...oh, ABS. Not that I know of Todd. I'm guessing that the Acura had a remote brake fluid accumulator, but why it would be connected via a hose AND one that requires maint really baffles me. Maybe if I happen to wander into the garage anytime soon, I'll look for that Bendix ABS manual (not my idea of a fun evening).
I just found a 1993 LX Mazda Protege with 37000kms (22000 miles)..fully loaded with a/c, owned by my moms old maid friend, who in 9 years never even went on a highway with the car!
But serviced every 6 months at mazda dealer, and had car rustproofed yearly, due to the fact we live in montreal.
The car looks like new, drives great and she wants $5900 cdn ($3800 usd).
I was about to blow a pile of $ on a new Accent, kinda nervous buying a 10 yr old car..is it reliable think?
This is how I see it. I got a wife of 18 years and a 6 year old son. I love them both very much. The next family car purchased for the Kline household, will have side-air bags and ABS. I might choose to make rationalizations pro or con, nonetheless safety innovations are introduced everyday in everything from sneakers to cribs to Happy Meal toys! I won't fight these safety inovations, I can't see the benefit in refusing to change with the times and give my loved ones every possible chance to escape injury in an accident. However, I respect every ones opinion on this subject and I'm glad auto manufactures allow folks to choose. For now! If I was to bet, I'd bet; with-in 5 years all cars will come standard with ABS and side air bags.
I like ABS and I live in Alaska so I get plenty of snow. However my last vehicle was a truck and having ABS caused me an accident. My truck in 2wd the ABS worked great. I rarely drove in 4wd but when I did the ABS was crap. If I hit the brakes the truck would slide sideways. Even though I knew this I was so used to driving in 2wd that one day when it was icy I was in 4wd and came around a curve to see a stopped car. I did like I was supposed to. Hit the brakes and tried to stear off the road. Instead I went sideways and the side of my truck met the rear of a suburban. After the truck was repaired I got rid of it. When the ABS worked in 2wd I was glad to have it and it saved me from a few acidents. Thats why I have it on my protege.
I don't however like snow tires. I know they make you stop faster and all but in the summer the roads here all have huge ruts in them from the snow tires. They have to re-pave the main highways every year. And before they pave them again it is almost to dangerous to switch lanes at over 70mph because the ruts make you lose control of your car. They also fill up with water and cause hydroplaning problems. I don't think I will be getting snow tires for my protege this year. Maybe next year but it depends on how the car does in the snow with the stock tires. I probably won't even drive the car if it snows more than 6". The snowmachine (probably known as a snowmobile to most of you) is just more fun.
Comments
(Before the "Fountain of All Knowledge, Past and Present" comes down on me, let me assure you that this was a 2000 ES and no, I'm not in a position to trade up right now -- and nothing would be as financially stupid as getting out of a 2-year-old car and into a new one. Been there, done that too and learned the lesson from it when I was a young fella.)
Plain and simple, I'm a big fat guy. Not as fat as I was when I bought the car -- I'm about 40 pounds lighter now. (My seats thank me -- ever heard foam and upholstery scream in agony?)
My '92 LX had a sunroof. After about a month of driving it I cursed that sunroof. My head was always bumping the headliner, my hair was always getting caught in the sunroof when I closed it, and once it failed in the parking lot at work -- and thank God I still knew where the manual crank was or I would've flooded the car in the shower that started within a half-hour of successful, manual closure.
I really liked the feel you got with a sunroof though -- the breeze, the sun (better yet, the moonlight) -- so when I went to buy my '00, I gave the car the benefit of the doubt and tried the sunroof again. Nope. Same thing. And to get it I needed to buy ABS as well. So there we had it -- two good reasons to avoid the optional expense.
Meade
There's more than just stomping on the brake. People have to realize that instead of just stomping, they have to steer. Since your wheels don't totally lock up w/ ABS, you are able to still steer, and by doing so, hopefully avoiding the accident rather than just stopping short of it.
There really should be a "manual" on how to use ABS.
Then we send drivers out with licenses and don't bother to re-test them unless they cause some major havoc.
I, for one, wouldn't mind having to endure a road-test every time I renew my license if it'd improve the driving ability of the general public.
Oops. I guess this post belongs on the posse board.
I think the Protege handles great in emergency manuevers, ABS or not. Have had to scoot around other cars, things and critters a few times already. Fast response, no sloppy handling like the previous-gen Corolla/Prizm (when I put it through a simulated slalom in a parking lot...anyone going on a test drive with me better buckle up snugly).
People, people...it's just a car.
ABS--three words...maybe even read them in some article here on Edmunds--Step, Stay, and Steer.
STEP (or stomp, as you prefer) on the brakes.
STAY on the brakes...don't let up, even though you feel them pulsing.
STEER around whatever is giving you the problem (while continuing to stay on the brakes).
Yeah, I learned about pumping the brakes when I was in driver ed, too...back when the dinosaurs roamed the earth. Since I spent the next couple dozen years NOT driving, though, I really didn't have much to unlearn when I bought my Protege with ABS.
True, though, many folks out there don't know what the heck it is.
A fellow teacher was giving me a ride home a couple of winters ago, and her car started skidding. She wondered if she should be pumping the brakes. I asked if she had ABS, and she asked me what that was. We discovered that her late model Sebring did, in fact, have it, and I told her what to do.
We could probably make all sorts of cases for "Yeah, but in MY situation, ABS wouldn't help..."
But in a lot of cases it does help.
like disc vs drum rear brakes...
oops.....
I think Malt will puke if I try to include him in another group hug, and Meade has already gone home for the day.
We'll see how things go tomorrow.
Meanwhile, I'll warm up my hugging muscles now.
--Dale
Of course it does. Sometimes it's necessary to point out where another's point of view is flawed. I certainly am not beyond reproach and have never claimed to be. I have and will admit when I am wrong if it is pointed out, but I do try to take the time to understand something before I spout off about it.
As far as your truck is concerned, if it was a '94 (I think you said that before) it only had rear wheel ABS which is nowhere comparable to a car with 4-wheel, 3 or 4 channel ABS. Again, practicing panic stops is something everybody should do. ABS can be frightening if you are not accustomed to the sensation. A video as Ted referred to would be a great tool.
As far as personal attacks go, I'm still trying to understand where I made a single personal attack on anyone. On the other hand Sir Daffron, referring to me as a coward or the "Fountain of All Knowledge, Past and Present" would be a personal attack.
Thanx for explaining ABS so well Miss Dale!
Drum brakes came on the rear of my PRO. But I want discs too! Why can't all manufactureres make cars with front and rear discs, w/out ABs - or offer ABS standard or for a small fee?
Dinu
Thanks.
Now back to ABS and discs/drums.
And tires and oil and spoilers....
Dinu
And extended warranties.
And white vs grey gauges.
And lint on black interiors.
Someone throw out a new Protege topic for discussion. I'm sure this group can fill a few hundred posts worth on it. I mean, we filled up about 50 posts just on windshield wipers.
Here's one: Did you know that the Pro's engine runs at the perfect temperature for baking a potato? Zoom-zoom shake and bake.
Let me guess, that one has been covered.
"The steering capability of the ABS while braking has save me from an accident?"
Bruno
PS: I have expressed several times (may be not here) the reasons why I do not like ABS, and I don't really wish to repeat it here. Some might disagree and I respect fully their opinion.
Malt, any confirmation from the West Coast?
The ULTIMATE cooking machine! HE HE!
Dinu
Dinu
Now can we get on to the disc/drum debate? I'm bored...
If you could work that out, discs would be better because they would dissipate more heat into the potato and would give more consistent cooking stop to stop for a nice even bake. The front brakes really do most of the cooking anyway so it doesn't really matter whether or not the rears are discs or drums, from a culinary standpoint at any rate.
Dinu
all depends on if you are making roasted or mashed potatoes.
seems like if calipers are involved, we'd be talkin' about mashed potatoes, in which case we should look for the starchy white potatoes.
:-)
Dinu
Your new self-appointed Protege disc brake decorator
So what else is on the menu? Roadkill anyone courtesy of the Poortenzas? A nice racoon, squirell. I dare not mention deers!
Dinu
I do think ABS is helpful in certain situations. I remember when it was snowy out, I would purposely try to engage the ABS on my Integra on side streets and try it out. It worked nice and you could steer while you were braking...kind of. I never really *needed* it though. I guess getting ABS is similiar to getting insurance that I probably will never need. I use snow tires on my 01 ES and it is by far much better in the winter than the Integra with all seasons and ABS. The snow tires and steel wheels are cheaper than ABS too. I have also heard that in snowy/icy conditions with winter tires, it is often benificial to lock up for shorter stopping distances, which is impossible with ABS.
High pressure hose? I am going for a few beers tonight...oh, ABS. Not that I know of Todd. I'm guessing that the Acura had a remote brake fluid accumulator, but why it would be connected via a hose AND one that requires maint really baffles me. Maybe if I happen to wander into the garage anytime soon, I'll look for that Bendix ABS manual (not my idea of a fun evening).
OH YEAH!
Geez, this memory problem seems to get worse every day. At least as far as I can recall at the moment.
.
.
.
.
(I feel a re-direction to the posse coming on)
Take this stuff to the Posse board!
--Dale
When one is 90 years old, one's hearing and eyesight and memory (and bunches of other things) do not work as they should.
Julia
Potato Head, um, Host
I seem to recall that we should be discussing a vehicle called the Mazda Protege sedan.
Would you like ABS with your Protege Happy Meal?
Dinu
But serviced every 6 months at mazda dealer, and had car rustproofed yearly, due to the fact we live in montreal.
The car looks like new, drives great and she wants $5900 cdn ($3800 usd).
I was about to blow a pile of $ on a new Accent, kinda nervous buying a 10 yr old car..is it reliable think?
-lovetrain
Happy Birthday, Dinu!
--Dale
Sorry to inflict Fordness onto the discussion...but I have to say that their three little words have helped me out on more than one occasion.
I don't however like snow tires. I know they make you stop faster and all but in the summer the roads here all have huge ruts in them from the snow tires. They have to re-pave the main highways every year. And before they pave them again it is almost to dangerous to switch lanes at over 70mph because the ruts make you lose control of your car. They also fill up with water and cause hydroplaning problems. I don't think I will be getting snow tires for my protege this year. Maybe next year but it depends on how the car does in the snow with the stock tires. I probably won't even drive the car if it snows more than 6". The snowmachine (probably known as a snowmobile to most of you) is just more fun.