Lexus IS 350 and IS 250

wale_bate1

OK, think baby RX then.

Now, I'm running the other way...

oac

Lexus Denny Clements in all his procouncements has yet to mention an IS Sportcross - a sedan, coupe, vert, and multiple engines, YES. A hybrid ? maybe. A SportCross ? No... So far...

wale_bate1

9 September 04:

"...Dennis Clements, 59, head of U.S. operations for Lexus...acknowledges that the brand's core market of aging boomers "is not a good one to build an image in."

To keep the marque fresh and draw younger buyers, Lexus is redesigning its entire lineup over the next four years. "You'll see sportier cars, more powerful cars and trucks, [with] a wider range of engines," he said.

Convertible and coupe versions of Lexus' sportiest car, the IS 300 sedan, are due as 2006 models, with a new Lexus sport wagon styled like a lower, leaner SUV expected in 2007. The wagon is the first of a series of new crossovers — wagon or SUV styles built on conventional passenger car platforms — that Lexus is planning, Clements said..."

The particular archive I have is limited on capacity, but a month or two prior, Denny had a quote in there about the next SportCross being based the HF-C (definitely not the LF-X, which is RX-sized), IIRC.

It is planned, though, and I absolutely remember the comment that it would be aimed at the X3's audience.

I'll keep digging.

oac

wale:

I stand corrected....

lenscap

More on the engine choices from Car and Driver:

"Before you wonder why on earth Lexus would introduce a new IS with less power and torque than its forebear, rest assured that it has a very powerful surprise up its sleeve for the New York auto show later this month. In the Big Apple, expect to see an IS with a bigger V-6 that makes well over 300 ponies. That flagship IS, along with the 250, will give Lexus a similar lineup to the 3-series, which includes the 2.5-liter 325i and 3.0-liter 330i. Let the games begin."

wale_bate1

In effect, though, oac, you're closer to the truth here: the beautiful little SportCross, best RWD wagon out there, IMO, is history. The planned "replacement", such as implied, is a null by comparison.

lenscap: wait a tick here! I though our US E90 was coming in with a base 3.0L, but still being labeled the 325? Was I smoking something? Was it good?

Kyfdx, where are you?

kyfdx

Yeah.. C&D is a monthly magazine.. any news in it has to be at least six weeks old..

Both the 325i and the 330i will have 3.0 litre engines.. 215 (or 218?)HP and 255 HP respectively..

The euro 325i will have a 2.5 litre.. So, who knows if they are even right about the US model IS...

lenscap

Yes, C&D is wrong about BMW's engines. But that info is on their website under the Geneva show, so it's not like it is out-of-date. They just made a mistake. So no, you weren't smoking anything.

drfill

2.5 with 204-215HP
3.0 with 252HP
3.5 with 300+

Then a Hybrid down the road. Sounds like a plan!

Prius will sell 100k+ this year. They make more. They sell more.

DrFill

nippononly

to be slightly disgusted at the way Lexus is trying to exactly duplicate BMW's line-up, between the new GS (5-series mimicry), now making the IS variants match the 3-series in style and for power, and this plan for a baby RX down the road that mimics the X3.

I understand why they are doing it - those models are the bulk of BMW's sales, and Toyota will ALWAYS chase sales, but geez! Toyota innovated when it brought the RX to market, and the RAV4, and the Matrix, to name but three. Not to mention, there is more than just one way to make a great sport sedan/SUV.

wco81

Are they going to try to price the IS250 above the current IS300?

How much more will they price the new IS300 over the current one? It will be interesting to see how much of an increase compared to BMW.

And the IS350, they may have to price real high a la the M3 so that it doesn't poach too much into GS territory.

wale_bate1

Well, to be truly fair, the RX was a trend setter, and I think RAV4 was inspired, but Matrix was really an answer to the PT of all things. The innovator there was Chrysler (the old one), as they have been many times before.

Do we really believe a 250 comes here?

With everyone so confused until NY, I'm banking on a new IS300 and a 350. I'd now expect the 300 to price out at just under $30K, and I'll make book you won't find one of those on any dealer's lot save by special order!

So if you're shopping the lots, I'd bet the lowest sticker you'll find is around $32,500.

Doc/LG/oac: what do your crystals say?

blueguydotcom

The IS floundered for many reasons and I don't see Lexus making the same mistakes twice. Have you all forgotten the way the ls400 stole the thunder or bmw and MB? My god, the car was a sensation at 35k-40k loaded. It flew off lots because it was quieter, faster, more elegant and more luxurious than all its direct competitors at a price thousands less than BMW/MB could touch.

For lexus to repeat that feat, they've gotta deliver a car that really smacks down the reigning champ. Putting a 250 base engine and a 300 top engine satisfies some of the power worries. Delivering world class handling at a price thousands below the 3 series will be the next big feat. If an IS tops out at 42-43k they're gonna have trouble moving the loaded models against the 330i. If tops out at say 39-40k with all the trimmings, they'll be in fine shape price-wise.

tsx24

I really don't expect to see the 2.5 anymore. But who knows, maybe they'll throw all 3 engines our way. 2.5; 3.0; and 3.5. The way to blow BMW out of the water is put down a 3.0 and 3.5 to beat their 2.5/3.0 (or both 3.0s if that is the case); and as BGDC said, offer more luxury, standard features etc. I expect the 3.0 to be same price or lower than the current model. the IS350 will run the table around 33-37 (TL/G35/330 territory). I don't see them hitting the high 30s GS ground. A loaded G35 with 298 hp is about 37k...I think it will max out there.

glenford

From an AOL site which apparently Edmunds does for them, found at http://aolsvc.edmunds.com/news/autoshow/articles/104726/page012.html?tid=asv.e.autoshow..l- eftnav.13.**

(but only, I think, if you have an AOL id).

One sentence that addresses a concern raised here. "the VDIM system that got hammered so hard in our recent comparison test of Japanese sport sedans will be retuned for the IS to allow a higher degree of hard-core driving before kicking in the stability controls and calling a timeout"

oac

I'm with you. But I do see an IS250 in the cards for the NA market. Makes sense to have the variant engines a la 3-series. So maybe a 250, 300 and 350.... Besides these engine variants, the key is how much handling and performance would the new IS encode in its DNA ??? Looking at the wide 18" tires on the Euro IS gives me a lotta joy that the car will rock....

Think about this for a minute: a 3.5L motor pumping 315hp/300Ib ft torque, mated to a 6MT closely geared, and at no more than 3300Ib; that car would really put Lexus up there in this segment. In such configuration, I'll tatoo my name all over one rather than the 330i (my favorite in this class).

oac

I would expect the loaded 350 to top out where the GS300 starts. That'll be around $42K tops. That's my xtal ball view. But if Lexus can keep that car under $40K, look out. Like BGDC said, it will fly off dealer lots in bunches...

Anyone know how many IS is planned (annual) for sale here in the NA market ?

merc1

I think a IS250, 300 and 350 is correct thinking too. Mercedes is about to revamp the C-Class in the same exact manner for 2006, C230 (now a V6), C280 and C350, all V6s. Now what about an entry level Infiniti G30?

M

strager

Are there any published dimensions for the IS shown in Geneva? If I remember the dimensions for the IS concept shown in the US last year, the new IS is a very wide car, about 74", with length about the same as the current IS.

lexusguy

Wont happen. Nissan's strategy is that one VQ, one displacement fits all (well except for the 4.0L truck version), and the Altima's 2.5L four is not good enough for Infiniti duty.

merc1

I agree, it probably won't happen, but I think they're limiting themselves by not offering cheaper version of the G for people who don't care about ultimate hp. I think a G30 with 240hp or so would give the lower level German cars hellish competition as the G35 does now.

Speaking of Infiniti, they've come a long way in advertising because their two G35 commercials running right now are some of the best I've seen. The one where the G35 is running up the side of the mountain to get to the ski lift really make the car look good. Ditto for the one in which the G35 is really ripping down a desert road and then goes to slow motion to turn, really looks good. Makes you want the car.

M

lexusguy

Right, except the 3.0L version of the engine is long gone. Offering a single engine allows them to save costs that they can ultimately pass on to the customer. Bumping the 3.0 up to 3.5 and then cutting it back down seems kind of.. stupid. I think Nissan would rather refer you to a 260hp Altima SE-R if the G35 is too rich for your blood.

merc1

Well I think that goes against the supposed to be exclusive luxury brand thingy, you know having an "Infiniti". Oh well it was just a thought.

M

lexusguy

I see what you're saying, the problem is that I dont think Infiniti wants a model like the G20 anymore. I think they want to be like Lexus and not dip below a certain price level, and perhaps a smaller engine for G35 would go below what they are willing to sell cars at. Also, Nissan has been VERY careful thusfar in determining horsepower specs for each level of car. Altima SE-R is not allowed to have more power than Maxima, Maxima cant have more than G, etc. Offering a G with less power than Maxima goes against that careful positioning.

drfill

Correct! It's obvious Infinit feels as Lexus feels that $30k is the magic number. DO NOT drop below $30K!

Infiniti is doing alright by the G35 by not cheapening it in anyway. There really is nowhere for it to go. Make it anymore powerful, and it hurt the higher profit M. Make it cheaper, and....you make it cheaper!

The right way for Lexus to go is put the 3.0 and 3.5 out now, and use the Hybrid as the third engine. Same price for 300, more power, features, better interior, etc.

Make the 350 just under $35k.

2008-9 Hybrid in the mid-$40's

Bringing the 250 cheapens it. They won't sell for less than $30k. It'll run low 7's, but what's the point? That's more of a TSX competitor, which Lexus doesn't need to compete with!

Between the 3.0, the 3.5, the Hybrid, and a hard-top convertible, and a coupe, the IS will be fine. Be strong.

DrFill

jrock65

I think a V6 G25 (same body, smaller engine)would be a good idea. The cheaper car will get more younger buyers in the door who will later upgrade to more expensive Infinitis.

All the other import luxury brands offer or will offer a base version offering about 200 hp. I see no reason why Infiniti should not.

Audi: A4 1.8
BMW: 325i
Mercedes: C240
Lexus: IS250
Acura: TSX

They could use the 2.5 V6 VQ used in the Japanese Fuga (U.S. M) 250GT and Skyline 250GT (U.S. G), which makes 210hp at 6000rpm, and 197 torque at 4400rpm.

Obviously, it won't feel as powerful as the G35, but it will have a lighter steering feel, better balance, and be more gas efficient as well.

It'll probably do 0-60 in about 7.0 seconds with auto trans, which won't be that bad.

----------

I see the IS350 making about 300hp/260 torque, just like the G35 6MT and the RL.

BTW, based on pics, I think the IS has the best exterior and interior in this class now.

lenscap

I have heard it from several high-up Lexus sources that the U.S. IS will offer 2.5 and 3.5 engines. From what I know there will be no 3.0.

As for dimensions, the new IS is 3.5" longer, 3.0" wider and has a wheelbase 2.4" longer than the current IS.

As for price, another website listed the available options as provided by a dealer. They are basically the same options as on the GS, so I priced them out using the GS prices. It looks like this:

$4030 - NAV/ML
$210 - Power rear shade
$500 - Intuitive parking assist
$2850 - Pre-collision system with adaptive speed control
$200 - Ventilated seats
$525 - Rain-sensing wipers with headlight cleaner and adaptive front lighting
$1000 - Moonroof

If these options are in fact available, and they are priced the same as the GS, you're looking at a loaded IS being the base price plus the $9315 in options listed above. This assumes that leather is standard, which it may not be.

jrock65

It's interesting that the IS350 will have EVERY single feature that the GS300 has, down to the 10 way power passenger memory seat. Also, it'll have VDIM (GS300 only has VSC) and a more powerful engine. A loaded GS300 RWD, WITHOUT the $2,850 PCS, is $50,000.

Since the IS350 has exactly the same features, plus a more powerful engine and VDIM, I wouldn't be surprised to see a loaded one come out to $44,000, and that's without PCS.

maxhonda99

"Toyota innovated when it brought the RX to market".

If you remember back, the RX300 was originally brought to market as a answer to the anticipated Mercedes-Benz ML320, which hit the market just a few months before the RX300. Rumors of the ML were floating around for about 2-3 years before it came out, and Toyota designed the RX as a answer to that.

dewey

RX330 invented a new segment? You guys are such jokesters!

Think AMC Eagle. That vehicle preceded the RX300 by almost 20 years. I guess the victors like Toyota re-write history--but give AMC some credit when deserved.

wale_bate1

Leather will be an option. Most likely in a package of course. I really don't know whether or not it means that cloth will be available. For my brethren who desire it, I truly hope so.

Gummy, what an option list!
$4030 - NAV/ML I have NAV; what's ML?
$210 - Power rear shade No thanks
$500 - Intuitive parking assist No thanks
$2850 - Pre-collision system with adaptive speed control WTH?
$200 - Ventilated seats No thanks, I don't even use my heated ones
$525 - Rain-sensing wipers with headlight cleaner and adaptive front lighting Hmmmm...No thanks
$1000 - Moonroof For a grand? Forget it. $500-$650 maybe - if it's part of a package, but I bet no dealer orders one without it

Max: you know if we really want to split hairs, the RX is little more than a successful updating of the old AMC Concorde. If we really want to split hairs, and I'm sure we don't...
;-)

wale_bate1

Ooops, crossed in the mail Dewey.

Eagle? Was that it?

My bad.

drfill

ML stands for Mark Levinson sound, THE OEM sound system on the market today

Dewey

That's a good one! :0

Max

Just because something arrives shortly after, doesn't mean the preceeding vehicle was the intended target.

First, you have to get approval to build YOUR FIRST SUV! Think that takes a couplke of weeks? Toyota ain't GM, but they don't just build a new Lexus on a whim! That takes a year to get approval, MINIMUM! More like 2.

Then you have to make clay models, do cost analysis, design interiors, run focus groups, hire teams, format machinery, real-world testing, all that stuff.

Toyota can do that (back then) in 2 years, for a Toyota model. Add a year for a WORLD-BEATING LEXUS!

So they started work on that in 1993-1994 (released in Feb. 1998).

Do you think they were just going to jump into all that just because Mercedes is rumored to make an SUV 5 years from 3-5 years from now? Waht are they reading R&T to see what they should do next?

Come on! You know better.

DrFill

lenscap

You cannot really compare the original RX to the ML in terms of their market impact. The thing Lexus introduced the world to with the RX was a luxury SUV that looked and rode like a car. I'm not sure about how the Mercedes rode, but every magazine agreed it looked like an SUV only it was a Mercedes. The Lexus broke entirely new ground on what a luxury SUV could look like.

lexusguy

Please. The RX300 invented a segment. The AMC Eagle was not a luxury x-over SUV, and had no market impact whatsoever.

Max, what the RX accomplished was the first "cross-over" nobody had morphed a car into an SUV before then. The ML was a traditional BOF truck. Mercedes has redesigned the ML for 2006 to compete with RX, not the other way around.

wale_bate1

The Toyota as innovator discussion belongs in a back room...

Kirstie_H

Our back room is commonly known as the News & Views board.

blueguydotcom

Save for the moonroof (can't live without one), I'll probably pass on those same options.

Gimme a six speed, xenons, moonroof, leather, sport package and the biggest engine and I'm a happy camper.

kyfdx

Other than the "luxury" part of it, the RX didn't invent anything... Crossover SUVs were well on their way before the RX...

I mean, really... it started out as a Camry.. It isn't like they re-invented the wheel..

It was a marketing stroke of genius, however..

wale_bate1

BGDC, you got my attention:
"...sport package..."

I said it about the current car; I can't stress it enough for the future car.

Gimme an option with a staggered set up of 255/40-18 in back and 235/40-18 up front, a spring rate upped by about 100lbs, and 2-3 extra millimeters on the bars front and back. I'd really like to add some upsized discs and up-level pads to that too, frankly, even though the current model's brakes are about the best you can get shy of Porsche, IMO.

That's the option pkg that would get my dollars, if the rest of the car is up to snuff.

lenscap

Crossovers were on their way mostly in part because of the success of the RX. Everybody else was playing catch-up. When the RX came out, the only car-based SUVs that existed were the Forester, RAV4 and CR-V. If the RX did not invent the segment (I think it did invent the luxury crossover segment) it certainly set the standard for what followed.

kyfdx

CR-V was out two years before the RX... three years for the RAV4

I think the RX300 was a really smart move... but, they didn't invent anything...

Don't get me wrong...the RX is still probably the best crossover, even after six years of just minor updates.. I even recommended one to a relative.. But, in typical Toyota fashion, they just perfected someone else's idea..

regards,
kyfdx

i_luv_toyota

It's just too bad they had to "perfect someone else's ideas" (your words, not mine) by making perhaps the ugliest car on the road. The RX330 makes my eyes bleed...

Toyota really messed up when redesigning the RX, especially with the addition of those awful clear taillights...

Back to the IS. I think Toyota did a great job remaking it. It looks fantastic. Can't wait to see it in person. I hope they make the wagon model like they do for the current IS.

newcarman

Re the new IS 350 that i had just seen re the Geneva auto show and with the pictures associated, i feel that this car is really gorgeous, a style that may even be better than the new gs 2006.

What kind of price does anyone know or have an idea?/ Will it have the AWD as in the 2006 GS??

Say without NAV and the other goodies about how much do you think??

In addition, anyone have an idea when this car will be available?? Think it is being produced now and maybe will be ready by this summer???

lenscap

Price is the big question, but expect the range to be from the low 30s (base price of an IS 250) to the low 40s (for a well-equipped IS 350).

AWD will be an option, but only with the 2.5 engine. You will not be able to get AWD with the 3.5 engine.

The car will be on sale around September. It will not be ready this summer.

newcarman

Thank you for the info. How did you get all this info??

AWD will be an option only with the 2.5 engine and not 3.5??

Is the 2.5 suppose to be called the IS 250?? and in the low 30's?Do you know the horsepower for the 2.5 and 3.5??

Also, is this definite that this car will be available come this September??

Thank you

lenscap

Most of the information on the new IS can be found on various websites. I also own a Lexus and have talked with both the dealer and regional managers about the upcoming IS. About three weeks ago I was at a party at my dealer for the GS launch and I talked with a few Lexus execs from California who provided some good info.

Yes, AWD will only be an option on the IS 250 (which is what it will be called). This is similar to how AWD is offered on the GS 300 but not the GS 430.

The IS 250 is supposed to have roughly the same horsepower as the current IS 300. The IS 350 is supposed to have 300+ hp.

The car will definitely be available in the fall. If not September than very early October. Look for more details when the U.S. version is launched later this month at the New York Auto Show.

drfill

Never let facts get in the way of a good argument.

The Rav4 beat the CRD to the US market in '96, winning Automobile Mag Car of the Year in the process. The CRV arrived the following model year. They were both being sold in Japan already.

The CRV had a roomier cabin and more power, while only slightly larger, so over time that model won out. But the original Rav4 gets official credit for making that segment. CRV perfected Toyotas idea, at least here in the US.

The RX was the first car-based SUV of it's size, and the first luxury SUV of the crossover type. Light years ahead of the competition, that's just in it's marketing, it was, and still is, the standard by which all other luxury SUVs are measured.

So in conclusion, yes, Toyota created the car-based SUV and luxury car-based SUV IN THE US. This of course omits the old Colt Vistas and Nissan Axxess relics of the 80's that weere less than well recieved.

DrFill

nippononly

with all of these prices being bandied about, it looks like IS will probably be out of reach for me - $40K is outside my affordable range, I am afraid. Whatever happened to this model being the entry level Lexus?

I would very much like to see the base IS250 manual come in at $29,995, better yet $28,995.

tsx24

These 40k+ pricing figures are pure speculation, and simply untrue. They are based on current 330i prices which are completely exorborant. Lexus is not trying to hit the same market as the 330i, but undercut it. There is no way an IS350 will cost over 40k. It's just not gonna happen. Also these "speculations" are with every option imaginable including Mark Levinson Audio, Navigation, Ventilated Seats, Active Cruise Control, Park Distance Control, Pre Colision Warning system etc (assuming these will be options).

I do think the small engine model will come in under 30k with plenty of standard features...just look at the competition. Every manufacture has a car under 30k. Lexus is always cheaper than BMW and MB so don't worry. I expect pricing similar to Audi 1.8T and 3.0