Lexus IS 350 and IS 250

lexusguy

I dont think so. Plenty of people like the G35 just the way it is. Its sales have remained strong, where as every Lexus attempt at a sports sedan has tanked 2 years or so out of the gate. Why would Infiniti copy Lexus when Lexus has yet to prove that it knows what its doing in this catergory? The I30\I35 was always a failure, nobody wants an Infiniti lux-cruiser. Infiniti's customers are enthusiasts, so I dont think the G will get soft or cushy. Is there anything soft or cushy about an M45 Sport? They could've toned it down to make it more like the GS or RL, but they didnt.

jrock65

"The G35 may end up being bigger, more refined and more insulated...in other words it may resemble the upcoming IS."

It will probably get more refined, but I doubt that it'll get bigger. It's already the biggest import car in this class. I can see it becoming a bit wider though.

"Because the new IS will sell like hotcakes and Infiniti will want to share some of that success!"

The G35 line sold about 65,000 cars in 2004. Don't you mean that Lexus wants to share some of the G's success?

blueguydotcom

The G35 line sold about 65,000 cars in 2004. Don't you mean that Lexus wants to share some of the G's success?

Exactly. Look at the G and TL lines and you know Lexus has their eyes on the 130k+ combined units those two models tallied. Lexus is aiming for 40k IS units in 06. That'd be a helluva a jump over the low numbers of the IS300.

Still will be interesting to see if the far less powerful IS250 will sell well against better-equipped (when outfitted for the same cost), more powerful rivals.

dewey

I absolutely disagree with your disagreement!

I correctly foresaw early this year that the IS will become a GS wannabe!

And I can correctly foresee the future of the G35!

It's not because of ESP but because of a general trend that is even afflicting BMW.
What trend am I talking about? The trend of sports sedans transforming into boulevard cruisers. Sport sedans overall are growing, getting heavier, becoming more cushy and insulated. This trend sacrifices perfomance under the altar of comfort/convenience/passivity .

The majority are not enthusiasts! The Acura TL's fwd platform outsells the G35! And the reason the TL outsells the G35 has nothing to do with performance/handling!

The Infiniti M is a passive cushy car indeed when compared to the current manual G35!

My next prediction: The future G35 will be a M35 wannabe! God forbid!!

sunilb

[i]Sport sedans overall are growing, getting heavier, becoming more cushy and insulated.[/i]

This could be said of most all classes of vehicles these days.... and perhaps their drivers/passengers as well (getting heavier, more cushy and insulated

WSJ had an article about the resurgence of small cars in the US (driven by better fuel economy). Can only hope that this will extend to sport-y cars as well (hope the Audi A3 does well so that BMW brings the 1 over, then maybe Lexus will offer a smaller sports sedan).

New IS350? Edmunds probably has it right with the "GS Jr."-comment.

giantkiller

I agree with you. I think that some people are just sour graping. Let's look at the competitor:
BMW 3 series has Dynamic Stability Control and Dynamic Brake Control
Infiniti G35 has Infiniti Vehicle Dynamic Controland Traction Control System
Acura has Vehicle Stability Assist
Now why do you think that Lexus/Toyota will not incorporate VDIM when all other competitor has some form of brake assist and traction control over their competing cars?
Now all of a sudden stability control and brake assist are so intrusive. Why didnt they notice that when they reviewed the 330's and the G35's.
Oh I see its only intrusive when its on a Lexus. What a joke.

giantkiller

"More importantly, a G35 6MT can already match the acceleration of the IS350. (So can the 3)"
You have any supporting data about your claim?
Any roadtest result? Post the link here for our info.
I'm not gonna judge this car by reading Edmunds.com preview. I'm gonna wait until its release and see what the other automotive media has to say and the results of their test and comparison. Looking at what Toyota have been doing recently, I'm inclined to believe that its going to be a success.

jrock65

It's not only intrusive when it's on a Lexus. All of these systems intrude. The difference is how much.

If you've test driven a GS430 vs. an M45, you can easily tell that the VDIM on the Lexus intrudes significantly more than the stability control system on the Infiniti.

BTW, I do think that the IS will be a success, and will reach its sales goal of 45,000 per year.

giantkiller

Lexus said "The VDIM system in the new IS will be tuned for driving fun, allowing drivers to explore the outer limits of the car's handling. "
It may or it may not be as intrusive as compared to the competing cars but can you find out by just test driving it?
I dont think so. Like I said, I'm gonna wait for "real reviewers" and "real comparisons" from different automotive media.

blueguydotcom

ow all of a sudden stability control and brake assist are so intrusive. Why didnt they notice that when they reviewed the 330's and the G35's.
Oh I see its only intrusive when its on a Lexus. What a joke.

They aren't intrusive as you can partially turn off DSC with a bimmer and one button. You can fully disable it by depressing the same button for 5 seconds.

jrock65

My point is that it's probably not "just because it's a Lexus" that the reviewer found the VDIM on the IS350 to be intrusive. Maybe he found it to be more intrusive than other cars because it was more intrusive than in competing cars that he had driven?

And yes, you can sense the intrusiveness of stability systems on cars by test driving them.

BTW, many reviews of the GS430 found the VDIM on that car to be over-intrusive, not just the Edmunds review.

rotoryfan

The point we're making here is that when you are so obviously trying to directly challenge the BMW 3 series, and then you saddle your car with an intrusive, "are you ready for safe fun?" stability system without even the option to reduce its effects,

Arguably, the BMW is the benchmark in the segment. Now, IMO that is based on handling.

For a moment, consider that there is no perfect car but each has some combination of characteristics (total package) that an individual buyer would value. For example, here are a random few (in no particular order; non-inclusive):
- handling
- reliability
- fit/finish/tactile quality
- style (as in the eye of the beholder, etc.)
- ergonomics
- value
- (in this case) luxury appointments and/or technological "advancements"
- mpg

If handling at less than "benchmark-level" (due to VDIM, or whatever) is a showstopper for someone to consider the IS -- then so be it. However, if you weigh YOUR list of valued characteristics against the cars in this segment, I do not see (as some have stated) that Lexus has failed to create a strong competator in the entry sport lux segment/challenger to the "benchmark" 3.

However, if a single characteristic of a car cancels all other positive attributes in someone's assessment - then perhaps they are upset due to the *perceived* lack of "edge of the envelope" driving ability the IS *may* be missing (based on a preview from pro driver(s) on a track; we have not driven the IS - how do we know, individually, if the IS iteration of the VDIM will feel overly intrusive to non-pro drivers on public roads?).

Again, IMO, there is no perfect car - just a list of (prioritized) attributes of the complete package on which to base a car purchase - based on any individual wants/needs. Maybe a perspective broader than racetrack handling and 0-60 times should be considered...just a thought.

Sorry to ramble on...

rotoryfan

P.S.

"The IS 350 will feature a revised,more aggressive version of the VDIM stability control system found in the new GS. The system is programmed to allow the driver to explore the outer edges of the vehicle's limits of adhesion before it employs nearly invisible corrections via braking, steering and throttle control.

As for the VDIM, maybe it will keep a few people out of a ditch on some rainy night -- even if they will not be able to drift the car through the curves on their daily commute

Cheers

mikegiller

If for instance the IS outsells the 3 Series, still has the VDIM, is the IS a complete flop? Does this mean that it "failed" against the 3? What about all those other people who do not see it as the die hards do? I have nothing more to say... you said it all! Bang on. I'm looking forward to my IS 350.

dewey

Here is my contribution that is directly related to the IS.

http://wardsauto.com/ar/auto_lexus_looking_sales/index.htm

Key points:

40k IS expected to sell first year, a 600% increase!

So Mike Giller if the IS outsells the BMW 3 series, what does that mean? Nothing absolutely nothing. Based on your logic the Lexus ES is the best luxury Lexus car , the Acura TL is a better performance car than the G35 and GM is the best automobile company in the world.

Pricing will be announced in September, but Lexus promises the best value in the segment.

Based on the statement above we can be assured that IS pricing will not exceed the BMW 3 Series.

A manual transmission only will be available with the 250, and take rate is forecast at less than 5%.

Does not the above statement prove the lack of enthusiasts who will drive a Lexus IS? 5% driving manual, yikes---there are probably more 4 cyl. manual Toyota Camrys. Was not the IS meant for enthusiasts?

Carter calls the second-generation IS "incredibly different" than the original, and says it should appeal to a slightly older demographic: 30- to 45-year-olds.

From the average purchased age of 29 to "30 to 45". If Lexus keeps up at this pace, the third generation of the IS will become a geriatric vehicle.

However, if Lexus customers begin to demand a diesel engine, "we could re-evaluate that (position)," he says.

Last but not least! A diesel for me is a decisive factor in owning a IS and I will become the most avid Lexus forum fan member. For me the diesel IS is like my wife's car almost a quarter century ago-- 83 MB300D(it is a gem). A diesel IS will have the quality and durability of our old MB. And it will be more fuel efficient and faster, although a John Deere tractor can problably accelerate faster than my wife's car.

Kirstie_H

Thanks for posting a message about the Lexus IS. Posts that are not directly related to the Lexus IS have been removed, and will continue to be removed.

lexusguy

"From the average purchased age of 29 to "30 to 45". If Lexus keeps up at this pace, the third generation of the IS will become a geriatric vehicle."

Hang on a second here. The moment you turn 30 does not mean you are no longer allowed to be a driving enthusiast. Just ask Carol Shelby. One of the major problems with the original IS was that it appealed to people that were too young to afford the car. With the new IS, Lexus wants to appeal to people who first and foremost have $30K+ to spend on a car.

I have no problems with the exterior or interior design this time. They want people who like to drive too much to buy an ES330, but apparently not enough to buy a G or 3 series. The original was a G and 3 competitor, and the new one is a C-class, A4, and TL competitor. I wish they could've preserved the spirit of the IS300 while making a car with a more mature design, but I suppose they want to play it safe this time after the failure of the IS300.

chris65amg

Gosh, I was late to the party, eh? Well, nannies or no, Edmunds said about the IS:

"With the structural heft of a beryllium atom, spectacular engines and exquisite assembly quality, the new IS is a car even committed Bimmer-philes should test-drive. It goes on sale this fall and should be priced competitively with, if not slightly below, BMW's 3 Series. It should be quite a sales race."

Obviously, the 3-Series is going to be more sporting. Obviously, the IS is more luxurious. It seems to be much more mature than the IS300 that it replaces. I think that it will make a great competitor to the 3-Series because lets face it: most people don't have the time or the tire-replacement money to always be pushing the car to its absolute limit.

"Hang on a second here. The moment you turn 30 does not mean you are no longer allowed to be a driving enthusiast."

Agreed. Driving enthusiasts are transcendant of age. Silly!

""As for the VDIM, maybe it will keep a few people out of a ditch on some rainy night -- even if they will not be able to drift the car through the curves on their daily commute""

This may seem dumb, and I'm sure I sound like my mother, but these things probably will help people who are dumbas.... er... lacking in discretion.

I think Lexus has something here. I approve.

petl

I agree with you, again. The current IS does not interest me, nor does the BMW. The new IS may be the one.

dewey

My geriatric statement was just in regards to the major age boost in what Lexus defines as the IS segment. Which in itself is frivolous! The Scion and Honda Elements are designed for the youth segment but attracts all ages.

Yes enthusiasts transcend all ages including my age of 42 and beyond!

ckelly14

I'm looking forward to the new IS and I've been stalking this board for the last month.
Could someone please explain what the words between colons mean?
For example,
:shades:
:confuse:
etc.
Not really on topic but I don't know where else to post this.

lexusguy

Er... I assume you are not seeing the "emoticons" correctly?

frisconick

You don't buy a car and take your age into consideration, you just buy the car you like. I am much older than you, 43 :P , and I will buy an 06 IS if I like it. I don't really care what others think, mid life crisis and all

dewey

I intend to be the oldest sport sedan driver in the Guiness Book of World Records. In order to accomplish that I will just have to eat more brocolli and cut down on the fries.

mikegiller

Exactly. Why should it matter what age you are when you buy the car? As well, having a range of 30-45 year olds as the target audience is FAR from geriatric considering that MOST 30-under CAN'T afford to spend $40-60,000 CND on a car. I am no old fart, and you can tell Lexus is doing something right when they are attracting 19 (in 4 days) year old buyers to the brand, early life crisis and all!

I would be interested to know how old everyone is on this board to give an idea of the age of people interested in the IS.

mikegiller

That's right! Brocolli is full of anti-oxidants that prevent cancer, so get eating on the brocolli!

dewey

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?DID=RSS&n=184&sid=184&article=8929

Article above on the new IS.

I guess the conclusion can best be expressed in the final paragraph:

No, it's not quite a BMW, but the new IS comes temptingly close.

mikegiller

...sum it up in one line, right?

Wrong. :surprise:

Why do you seem fixated that it will somehow never be able to beat a BMW?! It's scary, but, I mean, it seems like you are itching to dig up dirt on the IS 350 instead of even mentioning the good points of it? Why are you so negative? Don't forget this is a subjective opinion. You have to weigh the good and the bad. Do you always let other people make up your mind for you? I for one am gonna wait 'til I testdrive the damn thing and then I will make up my mind!

I am pleased to hear this; it's somewhat refreshing to know:

"In fact, a good driver will likely seldom notice all the high-tech traction gear, even during a four-wheel drift. On the other hand, the VDIM system is ready to step in if you make a mistake, quickly pulling things back in line. We have to agree with Lexus' technology wiz, Paul Williamsen, who insists that the IS will likely make most folks feel like better drivers."

And here I was thinking that the car would be doomed with the VDIM. It looks like the VDIM is not as intrussive as some think. If a skilled driver will seldom notice the VDIM then I think we are all "safe". :P

"No, it's not quite a BMW, but the new IS comes temptingly close." - With the new, much sexier design of the 2006 IS (compared to BMW 3), I believe that the IS will indeed tempt a lot of buyers cash; that is just my opinion of course.

Here is to hoping that Lexus will come out with a performance package!

blueguydotcom

The crisp, short-throw manual on the IS 250, meanwhile, was about as good a stick as any in the class, nearly as good as BMW's 3-er.

Almost as good as a 3 manual? So it's even more lousy than the garbage manuals BMW uses?!!! :O So, it's Ford/GM bad then? Golly, hardly a ringing endorsement.

Rest of the review is more positive than Edmunds.

diamondg

The 4th generation nav system in the IS is voice activated. Is the nav system in the new IS expected to be as good as that in the current Acura TL?

I assume that the nav system on the 2006 IS will be the same as that in the current GS - is this correct? Also, can you control the AC/ and Radio with voice commands on the new IS??

lexusguy

Were you expecting more? No Toyota or Nissan stick has ever been able to come close to the rifle bolt quality of a Honda stick.

dewey

Boy aren't we being defensive! All I said was that the whole review can be summed up quite nicely by one line.

Whether the review is true or false is another question.

oac

Though an admirable first effort, it was easy to find fault with the original Lexus IS. You have to look a lot harder this time around. Oh, there are some flaws. The steering wheel on the first 250 we drove was too smooth and easy to lose your grip. But from 30,000 feet, it's hard to do much more than admire the automaker's second attempt.

This sums it up for me....If you have to look reallllll hard to find fault, then this is a perfectly executed 2nd-gen IS. And Lexus will sell a boat load of these cars when they arrive here. I am happy to note as well, that the dreaded VDIM is not as intrusive as Edmund's will make you believe. We may wait for yet more tests to see who has it correct, in the meantime we all await the release of this car for our own individual testing. I will be heading for my local Lex shop to see if I can get on the waiting list for a test drive.

chris65amg

I think I'll visit my nearest Lexus dealer pretty soon.....

blueguydotcom

If you have to look reallllll hard to find fault, then this is a perfectly executed 2nd-gen IS. And Lexus will sell a boat load of these cars when they arrive here. I am happy to note as well, that the dreaded VDIM is not as intrusive as Edmund's will make you believe. We may wait for yet more tests to see who has it correct, in the meantime we all await the release of this car for our own individual testing. I will be heading for my local Lex shop to see if I can get on the waiting list for a test drive

I intend to look real hard at ANY car I drive. If i hadn't pushed an 03 G35 6mt so hard in my last drive of that model I never would have known the backend can be so skittish at hyper legal speeds.

It's the little things that add up to the sum total. G35 - twitchy, rough engine, bad tach design. That sums up the car for me. Current IS - anemic engine, numb feel and all around bland driving experience. What will the next IS be? Not sure but I look forward to driving it and looking for things to hate about it.

BTW, e46 330i - horrible tranny, no low end power and quite unreliable.

markl

Anyone have the latest information on the convertible offering? Specs, projected date, etc?

saigonboi21

hey i've been reading up on the new IS. For those that remember me, i was looking to buy either a BMW or a G35. After reading about the 06 IS, I believe that it's the car i want. All that's left is the test drive. anyone know the exact date???

rotoryfan

Last I heard was "by October" it will be for sale. Some rumors of viewing models in dealerships by late Sep.

The October date is very reliable - I think that is what Lexus has published to date.

Cheers

rotoryfan

What will the next IS be? Not sure but I look forward to driving it and looking for things to hate about it.

blueguy -

less :mad:

and more

Feel the - Lexus love - man!

blueguydotcom

I'm a critic and realist naturally. I can adore a film and still nitpick that a shot wasn't right or an actor missed a beat. Same with cars. I wanna have fun and if the IS is fun enough, I'll overlook little things, even if they do end up defining the car in some measure.

If i loved the tranny on my bmw I'd be like one of those lexus acolytes who refuses to accept any deficiency in my purchase. there's always room for improvement. always.

rotoryfan

In interior photo (pic #10) of the car connection review (clicking on the "see more photos" link)
Did anyone notice the little green light that is showing just under the passenger side air vent? What is that about? A little green light that indicates the vent is open?

Just wonderin'

blueguydotcom

Ejection light for the passenger seat?!

saigonboi21

dude seriously the new IS looks so freakin awesome. I especially likes the Push engine start button. The interior looks really nice also. Wow cant wait til it's out. If someone can tell me that I can get the IS250 RW- auto, with the mark levinson system for around $36k I will put down a deposit for the car right now.

I LOVE LEXUS/Toyota...

blueguydotcom

36k for a car with 200 hp. Wow...just wow.

saigonboi21

didnt someone say that the IS250 starts around $33k? plus some options it's probably around $36k right? Whats the starting price for the IS350? cus there's a difference of 102hp. But if there's too much of a difference in price, then I'll stick with the 250.

oac

Speculation is that the IS250 starts around $31K (same as old IS300), while the IS350 starts at $35K. For a few thousands more than an IS250, you can get a lightly loaded IS350 in the $37-38K range, with that awesome seat-of-the-pants 306HP power. However, the 204HP IS250/6MT loaded to the hilt should get you close to the same number ($37K-ish).

Personally, I'm going with the IS350, with Nav/ML combo (comes with Bluetooth, iPod connection). Thats it. Hopefully I can get these combo around $40K +TTL, and I'll be a happy camper.

saigonboi21

if it starts around $35k then i'll definitely go with the 350. I thought it will be like the 3series. Starts around $37k plus a few options and it's up to $43k.But yeah I will definitely get the ML audio system.I just called a lexus dealer here in santa clara county and they told me the IS will hit dealerships in september. They dont know whether it's early, mid, or late.

wco81

Stevens Creek Acura?

saigonboi21

Stevens Creek Lexus- they dont have a specific date yet but they're takin deposits...

drfill

Where are my keys?

What? Oh. I'm on?

So....uh...the IS will have hybrid, coupe and convertible hardtop? V8?

So I didn't miss anything? Ok.

I read awhile back that the G35 is no where near class-leading and such vs. the 3.

I seem to remember it beating the 328 whjen it came out in MT, and beating a 325 in C&D and being voted "10 Best" in C&D. AND beating 10 sports sedans in R&T, including a 3 (2nd place) and IS (3rd).

Sounds kinda class-leading to me. That could be the Tequilla....but....

If you can buy a G35 MT for 27-29k, git it, as much as I luv Lexus/Toyota/Honda, git it. ESPECIALLY the coupe! Hasn't aged a day in 3 years.

A 5% take rate on MT IS250 is because of the poor placement of the MT. It would be 25-30% in a 350. EASY!

That rate is not a reflection on MT drivers, it's on Lexus. Do the right thing, and smart drivers respond. The G doesn't have a 5% Mt rate, does it?

DrFill