Lexus IS 350 and IS 250

alpha01

I think its important to note that the 2.5L and the 3.5L in the new IS are both rated according the SAE's revised hp calculations, as evidenced by edmunds.com statement "The V6 in the IS 250 displaces 2.5 liters. Lexus rates it at 204 horsepower at 6,400 rpm with the 185 pound-feet of peak torque at 4,800 rpm using the SAE's latest rating regimen."

Are the BMW 3-series engines also rated as such? Am I the only one who is confused by this business- since not all manufacturers are moving to the new rating system, will it not become VERY difficult to compare apples to apples?

~alpha

biker4

HP is just one number - which at the moment seems to be derived at different ways. The other numbers that make a diff are tq and weight. Thankfully, those don't have different measuring methods. Regardless of how it's measured the 215HP in the 325 will make it noticebly quicker than the IS250 (below 7s in 6MT trim for the 325 vs. probably high 7s for the IS250 with 6MT)

ninjaguy

Interesting that the 6 cylinder engine in the GS in Japan is the 3.5 liter vice the 3.0 liter in the US. The prices of the GS in Japan are about the same as in the US.

The IS250 prices range from 3.7M yen ($33.6K) to 4.5M yen ($40.1K), and the IS350 from 4.6M yen ($41.8K) to 5M yen ($45.5K) plus 90K yen ($800) for the moonroof and 270K yen ($2.5K) for the Mark Levinson audio.

If Lexus tries to sell the IS in the US at these prices, it will be a failure. If I am going to spend BMW-like dollars, then I will buy a 330i or for thousands less, a G35. For the IS to be successful in the US, the IS250 will have to be priced at least $3K less than a comparably equipped G35, and the IS350 will have to be priced at no more than $2K more than a comparably equipped G35. Although Lexus may think that they are competing with BMW, the real value competition is the G35.

vatvatsetho

The 3.0 engine was just for this year...the 3.5L was not ready when the GS was launched.

biker4

From another site:

Pricing
2006 IS250 (base model)
$ 27,585 - Manual - RWD
$ 28,955 - Automatic - E-Shift - RWD
$ 30,905 - Automatic - E-Shift - AWD
2006 IS350 (fully loaded)
$ 42,475 - Automatic - E-shift - RWD

jrct9454

If those prices are accurate, then all this yapping about the car's competitiveness should go away.

"My" 325i, with automatic, metallic paint, fold-down rear seats, and [std] sunroof, is a $34k item after BMW's Sept price increase. Sounds like an IS250, probably a bit better equipped, will be the same or less. In that case, they will get my serious attention.

blueguydotcom

I saw that too. If you notice on that site they don't give any legit sources and it's hard to tell even when that was dated as stuff around it appears to be from Feb/March 05.

Wouldn't trust it.

kyfdx

Sounds awfully low...

They'll sell like gangbusters if they hit that number, though... Dont see it happening..

maximus_gti

You forget that these prices all include Navi and ML sound system, which comes standard on all the Japanese Cars. And I think Xenon lights are standard as well, so that's like 4500-5000 dollars added on to the what would be the US base price. Meaning that the Japanese 33.5k price would be around 28-29k here for the base IS250

prado

Notice how the JDM Lexus GS 350 has more HP than GS430 AND weigh in at about 125lbs less!!
GS350: 311HP Vs. GS430: 276HP
GS430 has more torque, probably other better tech, and costs more.

http://lexus.jp/models/gs/spec/spec.html

As far as new SAE ratings on the new IS, I think engines are good for about 212HP and 313HP for IS250 & 350 based on what I can gather from JDM specs, which may be based on OLD MEASUREMENT METHODS.
Interesting to see when other car makes will convert to new SAE ratings.

jrock65

"You forget that these prices all include Navi and ML sound system, which comes standard on all the Japanese Cars."

That's not true. All IS models come standard with Navi, but stuff like Levinson, moonroof, and sonar parking assist are optional.

There is a translation on another board of the spec and options sheet on the lexus.jp, but I can't post it here because of forum rules.

gee35coupe

really have no correlation. They will price what they think the market will bear. Kind of like the price differences between Canadian and U.S. versions of the same cars.

kyfdx

Bingo...

maximus_gti

oh yeah, maybe I read it wrong, is said premium sound system was standard and then something like suround sound was optional, which I thought was something else, always, the japanese price would still be higher than the Base US price.

lakesidetoyota

I just spoke with my local Lexus sales manager and he said that the is350 loaded up will come in around 48K! That sounds a little stiff to me, I was thinking 40-42.

dewey

he said that the is350 loaded up will come in around 48K

The fellow above is definitely a jokester!

lakesidetoyota

Uhh, not really, I'm a Toyota sales manager and I've known this guy for 3 years and bought 2 cars from him. I wish he was joking.

maxhonda99

At $48K Factory Loaded, Lexus will sell a grand total of TWO IS350's!!!

They would be smoking some serious WEED!!!

lakesidetoyota

Not really, a fully loaded GS430 would still be 10k more and have less horsepower. By fully loaded, he means not only Nav, but laser cruise, adaptive headlights, every goodie available. I hope he's wrong, because I won't buy one at that price, but I could see it happening.

lexusguy

Even still, a fully loaded Lexus should come in less than a fully loaded C350 or 330i (I'm not counting ED). If the IS350 has no price advantage whatsoever, thats gonna be a tough sell.

lakesidetoyota

I know, I was hoping to be around 38-40 msrp for a 350. He may be smoking crack, we'll see in 90 days.

maxhonda99

I Think at $48K, the marketplace will speak, and it will say ....."smoking WEED".

jrock65

Well, we know extrapolating from the GS example that the total cost of all of the options on the IS350 will be about $9000 (Navi, Levinson, PCS, sunroof, etc). The IS will have an additional option, the Sport Package ($1500?), that is not offered on the GS. That could mean that the options total for the IS350 would be about $10,500.

$48,000 minus $10,500 = $37,500 base price. That seems a bit high to me, by about $2000.

billinsobe

I've already placed an order for an IS350 and will tell you right now. Even loaded I would not pay much more then 40K for the IS350. PERIOD.

If the dealer calls and tells me it's more I'll cancel my order and get back my deposit.

Even with all of the tech gadgets and high HP the IS350 isn't worth much more then 40K.

Sorry.

lakesidetoyota

are you getting msrp, higher, or lower?

billinsobe

FYI. I called my dealer and they've told me they haven't gotten any pricing or brochures yet. After hearing this I called 2 other local Lexus dealers and they confirmed. No pricing or info other then what's on the Lexus website.

This is good news cause I nearly !@$# myself when I hear $48k.

billinsobe

My invoice said "Subject to MSRP". This is to be expected for the first year.

I won't pay more then MSRP. The only people who may have to pay more then MSRP are people who aren't on the waiting list and want one as soon as they are released.

lakesidetoyota

Didn't mean to start a panic, just talked to my Lexus guy today and thought I would relay the info here. I've been lurking here for a little while, and am dying to get out of my wife's es330 and into a real car...

maxhonda99

Well, I think you'll be canceling your order for a IS350 soon!!!

Realistically, the lowest base price I can see for a IS350 is $35K, which means loaded it would still end up $42K-$44K.

blueguydotcom

You guys aren't mentioning the massive price gulf between the GS300 and GS430. If that's a harbinger the IS250 to 350 jump will be a biggie.

alpha01

like 52K? So whats the big deal?

~alpha

blueguydotcom

I don't get how someone can push a 330i up to 50k+. The version I like is setup fine and it's under 41k. You have to get a lot useless junk...like active steering and navi to push over 50k.

lakesidetoyota

we're not talking opinion about how the car is set up, just the ceiling on price. and yes, it is very east to hit 52K on a 330 bmw, alot of times on both a Lexus and Bimmer we won't have alot of choice except to take the options the factory puts on the car.

kyfdx

A really loaded 330i is around $44K... Go hog wild and you might hit $46,500..

Is it possible to get to $50K? Sure... But, I've never seen any actual 330i priced that high, except for convertibles...

But, (and moving back on topic).. If Lexus is trying to match BMW pricing, they will have problems.. I thought the whole point of doing the two engine models this time, is to show price separation from BMW... This way, they can bring the 250 in under the 325i, and the 350 in under the 330i...

If they are as expensive as the BMWs, I predict IS300-like sales numbers..

regards,
kyfdx

lexusguy

Agree. Japan has proven that they can build world class cars, but everything from a Corolla to an LS430 still depends at least in part on the fact that they cost less than a comparable Jetta or S class. Equal pricing with Europe is a very risky move.

maxhonda99

I bet less than 1% of BMW 3-series sedans come in at $52K. Second, BMW has a excellent track record with the BMW 3-series. They have built a loyal following over the years with the 3-series on the performance basis. Lexus has basically no following for the IS. This is basically Lexus' first try at a BMW fighter. To command $50K prices for a 3-series fighter, you better have a following first. I think they have to undercut the 3-series to be successful but not by too much. I think starting a IS350 at around $35K to $36K would be perfect. If a loaded IS350 is going to cost $48K, I would much rather fork over $45K and get a *nicely* loaded GS300. Yeah, I know it has less power but it's still quick enough!

oac

No one can say for 100% certainty what the NA pricing will be. Speculations can make people do crazy things, so lets just temper our pronouncements until we see the actual price list from Lexus.

Personally, I don't see how the IS350 can be priced to $48K. But if you consider that a 345HP M45 can reach $60K loaded to the hilt; a 255HP 330i can reach $50K loaded to the hilt, a 300HP GS430 can reach $62K loaded to the hilt, and a 215HP C320 can reach $44K loaded. Maybe a loaded-to-the-hilt 306HP IS350 may reach the mid-$40K. That would be the highest, IMO.

Besides, Japan pricing is almost always higher than NA pricing, so we just gotta wait and see. I agree though, if the IS is not value-priced against the Bimmer, it will lose out overall, unless it competes in every other facet, and bests the e90, which is doubtful for now....

blueguydotcom

no choice? uh, order the car.

ninjaguy

The GS's 3.0 V6 and 4.3 V8 are totally different engines and can be expected to have a large price difference. The IS 2.5 V6 and 3.5 V6 are essentially the same engine (but with different displacement) with the same technology (same engine block, direct fuel injection and variable valve timing, etc.). I doubt that it costs Toyota more than $1K to $2K more to manufacture the larger engine including the beefed up transmission to handle the additional torque. But because of the large HP and torque difference, they will probably have $5K-$6K price difference (pure profit on the IS350).

ninjaguy

If you re-read my posting, you'll see that the standard equipment in the base price ranges did not include the 90K yen ($800) for the moonroof and 270K yen ($2.5K) for the Mark Levinson audio.

ninjaguy

"...the japanese price would still be higher than the Base US price."

The point that I was trying to make is that the IS350 is the same price as the GS350 in Japan. If Lexus does that in the US, (least expensive GS300 is $45.9K (base + cheapest package option + delivery)), they won't sell many cars.

drfill

1. If it looks half as good in person as it does in pictures, this will be the sexiest car in the class, style-wise. 2nd best isn't even close. Who said Toyota/Lexus can't make original, beautiful cars?

2. With little power in 250, and no stick in 350, plus a rumored poor mix of product (5% MT), this IS will always be "What could've been". If Lexus can't make this a 70-80k units per year car, that's just pityful! Right price, right product mix, would make this a G35/330-beater, EASY!

3. Fixes to the 2008 model will be too late. It will never sell more than it will in 2006. Sales will be fairly strong at first, then a steady decline after 2007, even with Hybrid and conv. models. It looks like Lexus is destined to empty a clip into this car's tires. Those who do not learn from history......What a shame! They have the sports sedan they've always wanted and just don't know what to do with it. This maybe the most disappointing Lexus since the '93 GS!

Poseurs rejoice (Most present party excluded)!! Your Q-ship has arrived!

DrFill

maxhonda99

70K to 80K units a year? Boy, you're smoking more weed than Lexus corporate!

Does the BMW 3-series sedans sell 70K to 80K a year? No!
Does any luxury carmaker in the US sell 80K of their entry level sedans in the US? No. And let's remember Lexus has 2 totally different sedans in the same price range, the ES already sells over 60K a year. It's ridiculous to expect 80K a year for the IS sedans. Maybe once they bring out a coupe, 70K might be attainable.

drfill

I said IF they provide the right product mix (engine power, transmissions) AND pricing ($30-36k base prices).

There are AT LEAST 70k drivers a year who WANT to buy a Lexus, a high quality, low maintenance, easy to use, durable car, but with true sporting character.

You made my point for me! Lexus sells 60-65k ES330, and up til last year, it was 75k. They can do the same, IF they show they are SERIOUS about making a sports sedan, not a poseur-mobile.

When and IF Lexus provides this service, the 3 will fall.

They are || far away.

Lexus still refuses to do right by the IS, overpromise and underdeliver, and will reach half of it's potential, roughly.

Don't mention a 3-series unless you are willing to go toe-to-toe with them, Lexus. I don't want to hear IS and 3 together until Lexus provides power, options, and mix that are comparable.

Right now we have a Lexus TSX, and a Lexus C55 AMG. Greatness lies within that canyon-sized chasm.

DrFill

paulhuang

BMW does in fact sell more than 70-80K 3-series a year. I read recently it's just a hair over 100K a year but I couldn't find that link. Here is a different link, click on the first spreadsheet to see the numbers (you can extrapolate a little and be able to say more than 70-80K will be sold in the year)

http://www.autospies.com/article/index.asp?articleId=2806

maxhonda99

I read your post just fine.

Let's take for example the BMW 3-series. The total BMW 3-series lineup sells about 110K in the US every year, and that is alot of versions. The sedans make up about 60K of those sales.

You're telling me the IS250/350 will sell 70K and so will the ES? One has to give. I don't think the 2 together will sell 140K+ units. And really, the ES appeals more to the typical american than the IS does.

You say *If they produce the right mix of ISs*. Well, it's obvious that it seems like they won't be adding a manual to the IS350 for one. So, I think it's pointless to talk *what ifs*. If you want to talk *what ifs*, you can come up with a 300K a year figure based on 20 variations, etc. But it's a pointless argument.

*The 3 falling*. Hah...I doubt it. The 3 has built a steady reputation and a well deserved reputation in terms of sports sedans. It's also wishful thinking that BMW won't upgrade their product also. Do you really think any carmaker is going to stand still and let another fly by?

dewey

"And really, the ES appeals more to the typical american than the IS does. "

Aint that the truth! Unfortunately that applies to Canada too!

Well, it's obvious that it seems like they won't be adding a manual to the IS350 for one.

It depends? Sales success of the IS350 would prevent such a manual tranny. A sales slowdown would result in a manual IS350!

Is it mere coincidence that after a slowdown in Honda Accord V6 sedan sales, Honda miraculously announces the introduction of a manual V6 Accord sedan? I dont think so.

maxhonda99

I meant the IS350 won't be getting a manual for the forseeable future. I guess I can see one when and if a IS350 coupe comes out. I really think it would be really really really stupid at that point if they didn't come out with a 6-speed manual.

Where have you read of a manual tranny for the Accord Sedan? Is that for the US also? It's different for the Accord, as the Accord V6 coupe already comes with the 6-speed manual. There is really no cost, in fact, it is better for Honda financially to install the 6-speed manual in the Accord Sedan.

dewey

http://www.hondapreview.com/accord/

Also in Future Accord Owners forum in Edmunds. Discussions start around post #177.

billinsobe

A sales slowdown could be caused by any 1 of a millions reasons. Lexus isn't going to base their decision to offer an IS350 with a manual transmission just because sales slow. That would be stupid of them.

They will base their decision on customer feedback as well as other determining factors. If they believe an IS350 manual will make money, perhaps they'll make one available. However right now it's an unknown whether people will even buy an IS350. Why waste development money on a product that will can't pay for itself?