U.S. Auto Market News and Reviews

andres3

stever said:

I had one new 4 door sedan in '82 - couldn't afford the AWD hatch version. Only saving grace was the pass through rear seats for my skis and paddles.

Going to be living with a loaner (compact) sedan for a couple of months, but can't see it really growing on me. It arrives today.

Why get a "car" when a wagon or crossover or even a smaller SUV can get about the same mpg and has more utility?

I'll take a shot at that question:

1) A sedan might be a "looks" preference.
2) A sedan is typically quieter in the cabin and might be a bit stiffer and more rigid chassis.
3) A sedan getting 2 MPG or so more isn't "about the same" to some. There is definitely a penalty on fuel for SUV's; wagons.... maybe not. A good example would be comparing the Forester 2.5 to the Legacy 2.5 for mileage.
4) Crossovers and SUV's may have a high ride height, high ground clearance, but that definitely is a high Center of Gravity handling negative.

All that being said, if Audi had brought the S4 Avant over, I'd of perhaps selected it.

tlong

circlew said:

Going backward, as usual!

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/05/fca-us-reducing-powertrain-warranty-to-60k-miles-for-2016-models/

Following changes already made by competitors, FCA US is adjusting powertrain warranty coverage for 2016 model year vehicles to be more consistent with industry practices. For 2016MY, Chrysler, Jeep, Dodge and Ram Truck vehicles with gasoline engines will be covered by a 5-year/60,000 mile powertrain warranty.

The move follows General Motors’ decision in March 2015 to cut-down its 5-year/100,000-mile powertrain warranty for its Chevrolet and GMC products to a 5-year/60,000-mile policy.

It's interesting that when times are tough the manufacturers resort to things like increasing the warranties; when times are good they pull back. We will see how long this lasts. Were I ever crazy enough to buy a Chrysler car, a warranty would be an important item given their lack of reliability!

tlong

circlew said:

U.S. Midsize Car Volume Is Down 4% In 2015 – Camry Growing Its Lead

U.S. sales of midsize cars tumbled 7% during the month of April and are down 4% through the first four months of 2015.

On the whole, America’s appetite for passenger cars is in decline. Overall demand for cars is slightly south of flat in the early part of this year even as the auto industry posted 5% year-over-year expansion between January and April.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/05/u-s-midsize-car-volume-4-2015-camry-growing-lead/

It would still be interesting to see those sales with fleet cars removed. I believe I read that for personally purchased vehicles, the Honda Accord is still #1.

tlong

henryn said:

I see the Passat continues to fall like a rock.

That's the brilliant "build it larger and softer for American tastes" strategy at work.

imidazol97

tlong said:

It would still be interesting to see those sales with fleet cars removed. I believe I read that for personally purchased vehicles, the Honda Accord is still #1.

Interesting chart.

I'm sure someone has the data with retail sales excluding the fleet cars. However, the fleet
cars do end up in someone's driveway eventually, so they are sales and they are cars.

imidazol97

andres3 said:

Most definitely, since the Big 3 have a history of having a culture of corruption within their ranks, people will rightfully think that they have engineers and designers already plotting and calculating deviously how to save money using cheaper less durable and less reliable parts since they won't have to worry about it past the shorter warranty.

It's a trust AND perception thing. I trust Honda isn't trying to make or design parts that are meant to fail immediately after the warranty period ends. At Chrysler.... I'm CERTAIN they do.

That's a ridiculous statement--"some are trying to design parts to fail right after warranty?"
Really? Do you
actually believe that?

uplanderguy

Wouldn't your bottom-end Mopar have been twenty years old this year?

uplanderguy

I mean, one of our regular poster's Dad's '09 Accord has had a replacement engine IIRC. My daughter's '08 PT still has its original engine. I bought the car used, on eBay, and I got a free brake booster at the dealer about six months ago because of lack of extreme-cold assist for a second or two in the morning. I certainly can't complain.

andres3

imidazol97 said:

I not only believe it, I know it to be absolutely positively true. It's called Planned Obsolescence Engineering and Chrysler most definitely practices it. It was no coincidence that the Air Conditioner failed within literally days of its 3 year expiration date (with much less than 36K miles on the clock).

Coincidence, I think not. Granted, the engineering for failure isn't an exact science; statistics and odds are at work, but everyone's Neon started to become a nightmare after 36,000 miles (1st Generation Model).

If it wasn't the AC it was the Head Gaskets, if not that then the Auto transmission, if not that then any number of other things. Oh, there was a lot that needed fixing before the warranty was up, but it exponentially increased after the magical 3 year mark.

Now the reason they do this isn't to laugh when your car breaks down after warranty, it is obviously so they can make more money selling you "MOPAR" replacement parts, and replacement CARS (assuming you'd be dumb enough to return). Also, I imagine failure prone parts are initially less expensive to acquire than competently engineered and assembled parts; so it's all GREED!

andres3

uplanderguy said:

Wouldn't your bottom-end Mopar have been twenty years old this year?

Yes, but it was the top-line Neon model, the Neon "Sport." There was the base, the Highline, and then the lofty Sport model.

20 years, should be old enough to start entering into classic car shows.

tlong

imidazol97 said:

tlong said:

It would still be interesting to see those sales with fleet cars removed. I believe I read that for personally purchased vehicles, the Honda Accord is still #1.

Interesting chart.

I'm sure someone has the data with retail sales excluding the fleet cars. However, the fleet
cars do end up in someone's driveway eventually, so they are sales and they are cars.

Absolutely. But I do think it is interesting to know how many actual consumers buy which vehicles when they are choosing them new for themselves. For fleet vehicles it is often more about volume agreements, pricing, etc. For example, how many midsized cars does Hertz need this year? Who can give a good price on those cars? That's a really different set of criteria than an individual might choose. And those cars are in that chart above as well. So separating out the individuals tells about the choices of actual people for their new cars.

imidazol97

andres3 said:

imidazol97 said:

I not only believe it, I know it to be absolutely positively true. It's called Planned Obsolescence Engineering and Chrysler most definitely practices it.

Post some serious sources in the automotive world that say that's being done. LOL

jpp75

henryn said:

I see the Passat continues to fall like a rock.

As does the Malibu, although maybe the new model coming out next year will change that.

andres3

imidazol97 said:

andres3 said:

imidazol97 said:

I not only believe it, I know it to be absolutely positively true. It's called Planned Obsolescence Engineering and Chrysler most definitely practices it.

Post some serious sources in the automotive world that say that's being done. LOL

http://ericpetersautos.com/2012/07/12/a-modern-take-on-planned-obsolescence/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Three_Killed_My_Baby

http://sardeson.newsvine.com/_news/2009/05/29/2877924-dodgechrysler-planned-obsolescence

I find all of the above to be at least as serious as FOX News.

stever

The best source for warranty data that I know of is warrantyweek.com. They run the numbers - those manufacturers with, er, less robust parts tend to have to put more money aside in accruals, all of which affects the bottom line. Unfortunately not all manufacturers report accruals.

tlong

DETROIT (AP) — General Motors and Subaru are adding vehicles to the growing list of models being recalled by 11 automakers due to potentially exploding air bags.
....
Here's a breakdown of the vehicles added to the recall Friday:

— General Motors: About 375,000 Chevrolet Silverado, GMC Sierra HD trucks from the 2007 and 2008 model years to replace passenger air bags, mainly across North America. About 330,000 of the trucks were sold in the U.S. Dealers will replace the inflators at no cost to customers. GM says it knows of no crashes or injuries due to performance of the air bags in these vehicles.

—Subaru: About 60,000 vehicles added to a previous recall along the Gulf Coast for passenger air bag inflators. Recall now expanded nationally. Brings total Subaru vehicles recalled to about 81,000. Additional models include 2004-2005 Impreza and the 2005 Saab 9-2X, which was manufactured by Subaru.

uplanderguy

Are these Takata-related, or not? Up to now, it has appeared that GM has not been part of the Takata 34-million recall.

Earlier, the first-gen Neon reared its head here again. Astonishingly, I was behind one coming home from dinner at Cracker Barrel this afternoon! It was a dark plum one, made no particular noise, no smoke, and was a Plymouth. I had forgotten that they were sold by both Dodge and Plymouth dealers. Had all its brake lights, I could tell that. Almost daily I see second-gen Neons around here, which surprises me because I never thought they were big sellers, but it's been a good while since I've seen a first-gen one here in rusty, crusty NE Ohio.

uplanderguy

I'd consider another Malibu, but even I'm surprised to see it outselling the Kia Optima, Mazda 6, and Subaru Legacy.

CR has the 2009-12 4 cyl. Malibu models on its 'best used cars for the price' section of the current edition that's on newsstands now. I'm sure some are disappointed about that.

tlong

uplanderguy said:

Are these Takata-related, or not? Up to now, it has appeared that GM has not been part of the Takata 34-million recall.

Earlier, the first-gen Neon reared its head here again. Astonishingly, I was behind one coming home from dinner at Cracker Barrel this afternoon! It was a dark plum one, made no particular noise, no smoke, and was a Plymouth. I had forgotten that they were sold by both Dodge and Plymouth dealers. Had all its brake lights, I could tell that. Almost daily I see second-gen Neons around here, which surprises me because I never thought they were big sellers, but it's been a good while since I've seen a first-gen one here in rusty, crusty NE Ohio.

Yes, I believe those are expansions of the Takata recalls.

uplanderguy

There are many more recent airbag recalls besides GM trucks and Subarus. Just so the casual reader knows, per Edmunds these are very recent recalls for airbags:

2005-14 Ford Mustang
2005 Mitsubishi Lancer
Fiat-Chrysler 4.5 million various vehicles
Honda adds 350K for airbag recall, including '06-07 Accord
2016 Volvo XC90

circlew

Planned Obsolescence - Why GM and Chrysler Failed and allowed foreign auto dominance.

How some still are blind to the facts.

circlew

It takes time to wash out the disease-laden Big 3-Of-The-Past!

IHS Automotive compared the U.S. market share for the top eight automakers in 2014 with the top eight auto companies in 2000.

The conclusion?

The sale lead of the Big Three—especially GM and Ford— is a far cry from what it was in 2000.

Back then, GM, Ford and Chrysler sold more than two-thirds of the vehicles in the U.S.

Today, they sell fewer than half of all new models.

"There's been a steady decline in market share for the Big Three," said Tom Libby, sales analyst with IHS Automotive. "They've lost their dominance, and other brands have become more competitive."

Meanwhile, foreign automakers have expanded their lineups and marketing.

"Hyundai has been able to pick up market share thanks to marketing campaigns that really stood out from the competition," said Libby. "The Altima is an example of why Nissan has picked up share. It used to be a weak midsized sedan. Now after being redesigned it's very competitive with the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord."

"The quality of the models coming out from the Big Three will help them keep their market share," Libby said. "Every vehicle they build NOW can stand up to any other model in their category."

imidazol97

andres3 said:

imidazol97 said:

andres3 said:

imidazol97 said:

I not only believe it, I know it to be absolutely positively true. It's called Planned Obsolescence Engineering and Chrysler most definitely practices it.

Post some serious sources in the automotive world that say that's being done. LOL

http://ericpetersautos.com/2012/07/12/a-modern-take-on-planned-obsolescence/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Three_Killed_My_Baby

http://sardeson.newsvine.com/_news/2009/05/29/2877924-dodgechrysler-planned-obsolescence

I find all of the above to be at least as serious as FOX News.

Serious sources--data, usw..

Not an opinion piece that starts bitching about cost of airbag replacement, a song, and a blog. ROFLMAO.

Serious.

imidazol97

andres3 said:

I find all of the above to be at least as serious as FOX News.

I don't see what the "Fox News" comment has to do with the price
of tea in China, unless it's just to try to make a political comment
which isn't supposed to be on this topic. And as people who actually
watch Fox News during the news period daytime knows, they have
as many liberal analysts as they do conservative analysts.

uplanderguy

'16 Camaro assembly returns to the U.S., from Canada--and not in a deep-south state...amazing!

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1024722_michigans-lansing-grand-river-plant-gears-up-for-2016-chevy-camaro-production

Seriously, I doubt anyone could find a problem with this happening....although I'm sure someone will. ;

dieselone

suydam said:

I've never paid sticker at either Honda or Toyota. But they do not tend to have the deep discounts like I got on my Buick or my son on his Impala because they hold resale value so well. Since midsize cars aren't selling as well now, Honda, Toyota, and Nissan are chasing each other for sales and I am sure there will be good late summer discounts.

I think Toy/Honda tend to have less discounts than the domestics mainly due to their ability (for a variety of reasons) to better match supply to demand. They tend not to over produce like the domestics.

Resale value ss more to do with supply and demand. Honda has the lowest fleet sales among mainstream manufacturers, thus, they have the highest resale. 1 to 2 year old CRV's, Accords, and Civics etc just don't end up on the used market as fast as fleets often auction off vehicles within 2 years which obviously will effect resale.

dieselone

tlong said:

circlew said:

Going backward, as usual!

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/05/fca-us-reducing-powertrain-warranty-to-60k-miles-for-2016-models/

Following changes already made by competitors, FCA US is adjusting powertrain warranty coverage for 2016 model year vehicles to be more consistent with industry practices. For 2016MY, Chrysler, Jeep, Dodge and Ram Truck vehicles with gasoline engines will be covered by a 5-year/60,000 mile powertrain warranty.

The move follows General Motors’ decision in March 2015 to cut-down its 5-year/100,000-mile powertrain warranty for its Chevrolet and GMC products to a 5-year/60,000-mile policy.

It's interesting that when times are tough the manufacturers resort to things like increasing the warranties; when times are good they pull back. We will see how long this lasts. Were I ever crazy enough to buy a Chrysler car, a warranty would be an important item given their lack of reliability!



Fortunately, my '14 Ram has been reliable. About to turn 40k miles and the only issues are an LED map light and a 3rd brake light. Not perfect, but not a big deal either.

My wife's '13 Taurus has been flawless so far at 50k miles. Though isn't not a great car and I certainly wouldn't buy one, but it makes a nice company car.

I could care less about a warranty. If you're concerned about the warranty, just buy a far more comprehensive warranty package from the manufacturer. You can pretty much get everything covered for well of 100k miles if you want. I could have bought a unlimited mileage warranty on my Ram. It wasn't cheap, but it wasn't all that outrageous either. If I were planning on keeping it a long time, it probably would be worth it.

berri

Maybe I'm just a cynic, but why would GM and Chrysler cut back on their longer warranties unless it was costing them too much? But then Ford never extended theirs and maybe there is a message there too?

circlew

An FCA spokeswoman said that the automaker’s basic bumper-to-bumper warranty will remain at 3 years/36,000 miles. Fiat vehicles come with a 4-year/50,000-mile warranty.

Before Chrysler’s 2009 bankruptcy, the automaker tried to boost faith in its products by offering a lifetime limited powertrain warranty on its vehicles. That warranty only applied to the vehicle’s original owner, however.

In 2009, after emerging from bankruptcy, the automaker dialed back its powertrain warranty to 5 years/100,000 miles, which was largely in line with other automakers’ offerings at the time.

The change does not apply to Fiat, Alfa Romeo or diesel powered vehicles.

Let's see if HyunKia keeps it's warranty for 10/100,000. It's primarily what bolted them to a feared competitor instead of a junk car maker.

uplanderguy

My personal feeling is that if a company is resting on its reputation and unwilling to match other manufacturers (most, anyway) on a warranty, they're being arrogant. Ugh.

stever

Back in the late '80s, Chrysler bumped their powertrain warranty to 7/70 as a advertising gimmick. That was a big factor in my buying a Voyager, since they had a reputation at the time of flakey transmissions. (And I did have a recurring head gasket problem, but the transmission was fine). The 10/100 was a great campaign for Hyundai/Kia. Not sure how much of a factor it is these days since their cars are pretty well liked.

These days cars are a lot better so the length of the warranty is less important. Which begs the question - if your cars are so much better, why not keep the warranty longer?

andres3

Yes, that's a great question. If vehicles are SO MUCH more reliable these days, why doesn't everyone just have a bumper to bumper 10 year/100,000 mile warranty. My memory tells me that the late eighties and early 90's Honda and Toyota's were more reliable than just about anything, even today, but that could also be due to the fact they were much simpler than today's gadget filled vehicles.

circlew

I agree it's arrogance. I think the warranty is a big factor in final purchase choice given very similar products. If GM, C and F matched the HyunKia 10/100, I'll bet sales would shift to them in a big way. Too bad the arrogance remains given their past quality issues.

uplanderguy

My thoughts on arrogance apply to Toyota, Honda, and Nissan. If they are as great as perception is ("perception is reality"), why wouldn't they warrantee their cars as much as the best in the industry? It's not that they increased their warranty, to reduce it five years later. They never bothered to increase it. They must feel their costs would go up.

A Chevrolet salesman once told me, "Go next door to (Toyota dealer) and look in their shop. It's full, and they're not all oil changes".

berri

Personally, I don't really think Nissan has any quality edge. Toyota seems to still have it, but they aren't perfect by any means and Honda appears kind of between the other two. The difference probably narrows a lot more when compared to more recent D3 products. Seems to me that GM and Chrysler never did a really good job of advertising those longer warranties. I think they could have had commercials about it showing things like rigorous testing and better quality results from the past? I think that might have better boosted their quality and durability image had it been done well. What really interests me though is that if you price at the dealer an extended factory warranty on say a Toyota Highlander, it is almost half the price of a similar factory extension on a Traverse or Explorer. Now maybe the Toyota dealer is willing to take less mark up or maybe there are just more expenses after the initial warranty expires on those other makes?

uplanderguy

I have never bought an extended auto warranty, and never would. But that's just me and my general cheapskate nature.

circlew

My arrogance refers to the "Previously Big 3" as well as Toyota, Honda and Nissan. But you are correct that the Japan arrogance is a notch up when it comes to warranty length. Funny, but I read a piece that the longer the warranty, the more likely the customer comes in for service...therefore, more dedication to the dealer.

Go figure!

dieselone

uplanderguy said:

I have never bought an extended auto warranty, and never would. But that's just me and my general cheapskate nature.

Sure you did. It was just included in the price of GM vehicle you bought. I've worked in sales/advertising/marketing in a variety of industries. IMO, factory warranties are more about marketing than anything else.

Regardless of the manufacturer, a longer warranty period will cost more than a shorter one. My line of thinking tells me if GM decides to shorten the warranty, it has nothing to do with the quality, but they believe that money would be better spent elsewhere (or pocketed). Maybe their marketing department found that the longer warranty doesn't sway enough sales.

I've commented before and I say it again, IMO, a long powertrain only warranty can potentially cause as much problems as it solves, as many people don't understand what it covers or I should say doesn't cover.

dieselone

Sit down Updander....

I have something good to say about a GM product.

I drove my uncle's '14 Corvette yesterday. Of all the adjectives available to describe the car, only one comes to mind. Freakin WOW!!!!!!!!!

dieselone

I've never in my life driven anything so responsive, immediate, raw, thrilling, and just insanely fast. I planted my foot to the floor and I tell you I understand the need for the cool HUD! Triple digit speeds are only mere seconds away. OH, and the sound of the exhaust from the 6.2 v8. Just raises hairs on my neck anytime I thing about it!

uplanderguy

When the C7 came out, I didn't like that it didn't have round taillights. I got over that though. I like them a lot. I dropped my daughter's Cobalt off last night for an oil change and possibly a belt today (making the occasional squeal), and they had a white C7 in the showroom, a coupe, saddle leather inside and I thought it was very pretty. Sticker was $67K. I would sure like to drive one but I don't think I'll get the opportunity. Side note, I was pleased to see 75% NA-content and engine and trans both assembled in the U.S.

Early-on, I saw some colors that looked like they had a LOT of orange peel to my eyes. This white car looked good, even under fluorescent lights.

uplanderguy

What color, bodystyle, model, etc., was your uncle's? I think I could get away with the basic car, but I'd have to have the glass roof panel.

dieselone

I don't know all the details, but it's pretty much fully loaded I believe it's a 3LT z51 with performance exhaust. It has the carbon fiber removable roof and It's yellow and black. It also has the super sticky Michelin performance tires. BTW are great for picking up every little pebble on the road, I swear they're like fly paper.

circlew

Yeah, I test drove a C6 '07 Z51 last year...outstanding enough!! They (Kia dealer) wanted $35K for it...had 19K miles. Nice blue! It lasted 2 weeks before someone snapped it up.

The salesman made me stand on it...said he never gets the chance...I, of course, obliged!!

If only...

tlong

The latest Consumer Reports has an interesting article on what makes a car American? Lots of what we've discussed in these forums, but interesting that the most American-made cars are largely certain GMs and then some Hondas and Toyotas - all with around 75% "local" content. Of course the measure is flawed because Canada is included in some of those numbers.

uplanderguy

Of course it's not a tangible number, but to me, if a company is, say, a Japanese-based company, that's a Japanese company, even if a lot of manufacturing is done here. I've mentioned this before, but I always remember Toyota's N.A. head looking like a deer in the headlights during the recall fiasco of a few years back, deferring every major question to Mr. Toyoda.

Also, it is easy to note that far-and-away, the Takata recall has affected mostly the Japanese automakers--Japanese management, Japanese supplier. Similarly, the tsunami way-more affected the Japanese manufacturers, even in product assembled in the States, than other manufacturers.

To say that none of this means anything, is being a bit intellectually dishonest IMHO.

Of course, the lines are far-more blurred than thirty years ago.

circlew

On the other hand, the American Car was the 'Dear in the Headlights" when the oil embargo hit. The first oil shock.

Before the energy crisis, large, heavy, and powerful cars were popular. By 1971, the standard engine in a Chevrolet Caprice was a 400-cubic inch (6.5 liter) V8. The wheelbase of this car was 121.5 inches (3,090 mm), and Motor Trend's 1972 road test of the similar Chevrolet Impala achieved no more than 15 highway miles per gallon.

The crisis reduced the demand for large cars.Japanese imports, primarily the Toyota Corona, the Toyota Corolla, the Datsun B210, the Datsun 510, the Honda Civic, the Mitsubishi Galant (a captive import from Chrysler sold as the Dodge Colt), the Subaru DL, and later the Honda Accord all had four cylinder engines that were more fuel efficient than the typical American V8 and six cylinder engines. Honda and Subaru imports became mass market leaders with front-wheel drive—which became the de facto standard.

From Europe, the Volkswagen Beetle, the Volkswagen Fastback, the Renault 8, the Renault LeCar, and the Fiat Brava were successful. Detroit responded with the Ford Pinto, the Ford Maverick, the Chevrolet Vega, the Chevrolet Nova, the Plymouth Valiant and the Plymouth Volaré. American Motors sold its homegrown Gremlin, Hornet and Pacer models.

uplanderguy

Yes, that was true...over forty years ago.

andres3

dieselone said:

uplanderguy said:

I have never bought an extended auto warranty, and never would. But that's just me and my general cheapskate nature.

Sure you did. It was just included in the price of GM vehicle you bought. I've worked in sales/advertising/marketing in a variety of industries. IMO, factory warranties are more about marketing than anything else.

Regardless of the manufacturer, a longer warranty period will cost more than a shorter one. My line of thinking tells me if GM decides to shorten the warranty, it has nothing to do with the quality, but they believe that money would be better spent elsewhere (or pocketed). Maybe their marketing department found that the longer warranty doesn't sway enough sales.

I've commented before and I say it again, IMO, a long powertrain only warranty can potentially cause as much problems as it solves, as many people don't understand what it covers or I should say doesn't cover.

The solution to the problem you state above is to offer a LONG, long long bumper to bumper comprehensive warranty rather than just for the power-train. I believe the Koreans do 5 year/60K bumper to bumper warranties?

andres3

uplanderguy said:

Of course it's not a tangible number, but to me, if a company is, say, a Japanese-based company, that's a Japanese company, even if a lot of manufacturing is done here. I've mentioned this before, but I always remember Toyota's N.A. head looking like a deer in the headlights during the recall fiasco of a few years back, deferring every major question to Mr. Toyoda.

Also, it is easy to note that far-and-away, the Takata recall has affected mostly the Japanese automakers--Japanese management, Japanese supplier. Similarly, the tsunami way-more affected the Japanese manufacturers, even in product assembled in the States, than other manufacturers.

To say that none of this means anything, is being a bit intellectually dishonest IMHO.

Of course, the lines are far-more blurred than thirty years ago.

But even then that North American Toyota head even if just a pawn, he or she still gets a big paycheck that he or she spends here in the good old USA on shelter, food, cars, clothes, entertainment, and so on and so forth.