U.S. Auto Market News and Reviews

tlong

andres3 said:

uplanderguy said:

Of course it's not a tangible number, but to me, if a company is, say, a Japanese-based company, that's a Japanese company, even if a lot of manufacturing is done here. I've mentioned this before, but I always remember Toyota's N.A. head looking like a deer in the headlights during the recall fiasco of a few years back, deferring every major question to Mr. Toyoda.

Also, it is easy to note that far-and-away, the Takata recall has affected mostly the Japanese automakers--Japanese management, Japanese supplier. Similarly, the tsunami way-more affected the Japanese manufacturers, even in product assembled in the States, than other manufacturers.

To say that none of this means anything, is being a bit intellectually dishonest IMHO.

Of course, the lines are far-more blurred than thirty years ago.

But even then that North American Toyota head even if just a pawn, he or she still gets a big paycheck that he or she spends here in the good old USA on shelter, food, cars, clothes, entertainment, and so on and so forth.

My perspective is that I just don't see the issue. It's not like WWII was in the last decade or 5. I've seen junk from Toyota and GM, and horrible behaviors from both, too (substitute any US nameplate and any non-US nameplate in those spots). They both employ lots of Americans and both help stimulate our economy (ignoring the large subsidies to certain US nameplates). And having competition is good to push the state of the art of auto design and manufacturing and we are all beneficiaries of competition.

Honestly in the end if the US can't compete then we don't deserve to do well in the world. I see the over-focus on country of origin (especially when the fundamental economic benefits are more or less the same) as a bit xenophobic, but that's just me.

uplanderguy

OK, WWII was in the last seventh decade, only 13 years before I was born. But that's not even most of it for me. First off, in a general way, I don't like Asian styling as well, although domestic styling is certainly leaning in that direction. Secondly, I'd prefer to put my money in a company that employs the most Americans. But still, for me, it's that I like the cars best and that's what it should be for everybody I know...buy what you like and don't belittle others for their opinion.

And while it's certainly good that that Toyota U.S.-head is spending money here, my point was that decisions were still emanating from Japan, no matter what the folks think who say that company is as American or more-American than any other car company.

Speaking of warranties earlier--my daughter's '09 Cobalt needed a front flex pipe as it was leaking--noticed during an oil change and when I think back, I did think it had been idling somewhat louder than my '08 Cobalt. Luckily since that pipe is attached to the catalytic converter, I got the pipe and converter free as a warranty item. I surely can't complain, paying $5,501 for the car on eBay when it was four years old and getting GM warranty work done almost two years later. It was built before the bankruptcy BTW.

circlew

Yes, Mary Barra focused scorn on the Cobalt and other crappy cars GM produced in the past, not belittling any person particularly.

uplanderguy

Nice try. I'm talking of people who insult others' personal choices, and bad-mouth cars they've never sat in, yet alone driven. I heard someone talk about noise and vibration of the 2.2 in a Cobalt, yet they later admitted they'd never ridden in one. My Ford-only friend conceded how my car was so much quieter on a long trip than our coworker's Civic. You'd say the same too if you experienced it. That's not myth or PR. It's just not conventional wisdom.

uplanderguy

With daughter no. 2 going to Miami U. in the fall, and daughter no. 1 still there, a new car is a good bit away for me yet. But back to the styling discussion a bit ago, I think GM styling leans conservative (the sedans, anyway), and I like that. The '16 Malibu photos I've seen have the very-typical swoopy low roofline (duck to get in the back seat). I guess it was inevitable to try and sell like everybody else, but I have a tinge of regret about it.

Has everyone seen the photo of the new Maxima on Edmunds? Sheesh, does every new iteration of car have to look worse than the previous one? I cannot figure out that frontal styling, nor what looks like a piece of brightwork at the belt-level that appears to extend to the C-pillar.

uplanderguy

One last thing from me on warranties--my $11K+ rear deck on my house appears to be sinking this year, four summers after it was built. I contacted the builder, whose tone changed immediately when I mentioned the reason for the call. He asked me to send pics, which I did. Over a week later, no response. People knock car companies and dealers, but as far as backing up your work, I find them preferable to most contractors. LOL

imidazol97

The undervalued Yen gives toyota $2000 to $8000 per car in extra earnings.
That takes cash flow _away_ from the US and worker bees spending at
their corner 7-11 and moves it to Japan, and so on.

Interesting article link thanks to Host Steve. But often, like news stories today,
the headline isn't the real story. Sometimes there is a huge truth embedded
in the article:

""There's lots of moving parts to profitability," said IHS Automotive analyst Michael Robinet. "There's investment elements, cost elements and revenue elements — and currency issues can certainly mask improvements but can also mask deficits."

"Weakening foreign currency is a hot button issue for the industry — primarily because of the weakening of the Japanese yen, and possible currency manipulation.

"A weak yen cheapens the price of Japan's exports, making Japanese cars cheaper to buy in the United States.

"Some automakers, including Ford, have criticized regulators for not cracking down on alleged currency manipulation. Ford President of the Americas Joe Hinrichs last year called currency manipulation the "major trade barrier of the 21st century."

"Citing investment firm Morgan Stanley, Hinrichs said weakening of the yen puts roughly $2,000 per export vehicle in the pockets of Japan's three largest automakers — Toyota, Nissan and Honda.

"Rep. Debbie Dingell, D-Dearborn, last month pegged that differential even higher: Dingell, a former auto executive, said currency manipulation has helped create a "subsidy" to Japanese automakers that she said now tops $8,000 per vehicle."

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/2015/02/22/toyota-per-car-profits-beat-ford-gm-chrysler/23852189/

suydam

Camrys, Accords etc. are not exports. They are made in the United States and employ American workers. The Camry uses more domestic sourcing than some "American" cars. In today's global market the lines between domestic and overseas are so blurred that the distinction is almost meaningless. The U.S. Market includes more than "the big 3".

uplanderguy

Yes, that is true. We can agree to disagree. We do agree that the lines are blurred compared to the old days.

tlong

suydam said:

Camrys, Accords etc. are not exports. They are made in the United States and employ American workers. The Camry uses more domestic sourcing than some "American" cars. In today's global market the lines between domestic and overseas are so blurred that the distinction is almost meaningless. The U.S. Market includes more than "the big 3".

Many of the foreign nameplates now make vehicles in the US than are exported to other countries - MB and BMW come to mind. So we benefit from that manufacturing to a great degree as well. I'd like to see how much we export US nameplates that are made in the US vs. foreign nameplates that are made in the US.

uplanderguy

Other countries don't have the liberal importing policies we have here, for one thing.

andres3

If it's cheaper to export from Japan then why haven't GM and Ford built factories in Japan instead of China?

I personally like the fact my Audi was originally assembled in Germany as opposed to a lot of VW coming from elsewhere. I also like that the Forester we've been eyeing for my wife is made in Japan, 90% Japanese content.

I've had good experiences with German and Japanese made products; not so much with USA/Mexico/Chinese made products.

tlong

uplanderguy said:

Other countries don't have the liberal importing policies we have here, for one thing.

Well even with that we are somehow the biggest economy in the world. That's policy is our own issue and no other country's.

uplanderguy

Perhaps, but I don't think you can say that has zero effect on the amount of exporting of U.S. autos to other countries.

tlong

uplanderguy said:

Perhaps, but I don't think you can say that has zero effect on the amount of exporting of U.S. autos to other countries.

Your statement makes it sound like somebody said that and I don't think that's correct.

uplanderguy

I'd like to see how much we export US nameplates that are made in the US vs. foreign nameplates that are made in the US.

I would think it's of significance to your question, although upon closer look I think you're curious about how many U.S. nameplates are built outside of the U.S. versus foreign nameplates built here, rather than how many U.S.-nameplates are exported to other countries versus foreign nameplates that are imported here.

Your statement to me made it seem like you didn't think that was relevant to the discussion. I think clearly it is, if we're talking about vehicles exported versus vehicles imported, but then again, I think I misunderstood your original question/statement.

tlong

uplanderguy said:

I'd like to see how much we export US nameplates that are made in the US vs. foreign nameplates that are made in the US.

I would think it's of significance to your question, although upon closer look I think you're curious about how many U.S. nameplates are built outside of the U.S. versus foreign nameplates built here, rather than how many U.S.-nameplates are exported to other countries versus foreign nameplates that are imported here.

Your statement to me made it seem like you didn't think that was relevant to the discussion. I think clearly it is, if we're talking about vehicles exported versus vehicles imported, but then again, I think I misunderstood your original question/statement.

All that I meant from the comment you cites was that I wondered what the US-made exports are from the US nameplates versus from foreign nameplates. I didn't say that anything had zero effect on this.

Of course we shouldn't even include Chrysler in the list of US nameplates although some would probably want to count them in that category.

circlew

It's always nice when well made products are available at cheaper prices. It swings the other way as well when the economy is weak and the dollar is devalued against world currency.

Balance.

Honda has invested more than $14 billion in U.S. manufacturing over the last couple of decades. In 2012, it produced 1.2 million cars at plants in Indiana, Ohio, and Alabama. It also operates a network of component production facilities along with multiple design centers.

Toyota's U.S. design and manufacturing operations are extensive as well. It operates major assembly plants in Kentucky, Mississippi, Texas, and Indiana, and maintains a network of engine and transmission production facilities in Alabama, Indiana, and West Virginia. Its California-based design studio, Calty Design Research, is celebrating its 50th anniversary this year.

According to Kogod, these are the 15 "most American" foreign branded cars on sale today: (Score out of 100)

Honda Odyssey (78.5)
Honda Ridgeline (78.5)
Honda Crosstour (78.5)
Toyota Camry (78.5)
Toyota Tundra (78.5)
Honda Pilot (76)
Acura RDX 2WD (76)
Honda Accord (76)
Honda CR-V (76)
Toyota Sequoia (73.5)
Toyota Avalon (71.5)
Toyota Sienna (71.5)
Acura MDX (71)
Acura RDX 4WD (69)
Hyundai Santa Fe Sport (67.5)

circlew

U.S. auto exports hit a record for the third year in a row in 2014 as strong demand for U.S. made cars and sport-utility vehicles, especially in the Middle East and Asia, offset concerns about a strengthening dollar.

U.S. factories exported 2.1 million new made-in-the-USA vehicles valued at $57.5 billion last year, up from 1.95 million vehicles worth $52.5 billion in 2013, the U.S. International Trade Administration reports. Exports have more than doubled in the past five years. In 2009, 1 million new vehicles were exported.

Then there is another problem, Mexico. Production is soaring there, even for more sophisticated automotive components, says Sean McAlinden, chief economist for the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor, Mich., With Mexico's free trade agreements with 45 countries, vs. 12 for the U.S., Mexico can ship an Audi Q5 to Europe without the $6,000 tariff a U.S. car would face.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/04/13/us-auto-exports-dollar-ford-bmw-honda/25520825/

uplanderguy

I don't remember seeing cars built in Mexico before NAFTA, but someone once told me the earlier Mercury Tracer was built there. My daughter's PT was built there, but I bought it used....I figured the damage was done already.

That actually kept me from buying an HHR. Same platform as the Cobalt which is built down the road from me--I wish they'd had built it in OH, but they didn't.

My little hometown had a railcar-building factory for 80 years. Within two years of NAFTA, they had closed and moved to Mexico. The "blacksmith" correlation doesn't belong here; railroad cars are still built, used, and repaired, just not in my hometown. My town had fewer than 9,000 people at the time and this plant employed 1,000. So much for free trade...my most-humble opinion only.

circlew

Understandably, the Big 3 had to become global to survive. Now, it really doesn't matter where a particular vehicle is made. It's all connected at the end of the day!

circlew

We're getting better fuel economy!

circlew

"Unless and until GM employees face jail time, and GM faces a loss of all of its profits, there will always be an attitude that 'customers are expendable, profits are not,'" Hilliard said in a statement.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/06/09/general-motors-wire-fraud-investigation/28730797/

imidazol97

I'm sure folks are more upset about the 1700 deaths from Hondas:

"Honda Motor Co. said today that for years it failed to tell U.S. regulators about more than 1,700 injuries and deaths involving its cars. In an online statement on the issue, the company says it failed to properly report from 2003 to 2014, for a total of 1,729 "written claims or notices concerning injuries or deaths." Honda also admits that it underreported property damage claims and warranty claims.

"Honda says there was a delay between when it found out about the underreporting and when it started to fully investigate the issue. A "Honda associate" first noticed the issue in 2011, and the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration raised the issue with Honda in 2012, but a third-party audit didn't begin until September of this year."

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/11/24/366423486/honda-says-it-failed-to-report-over-1-700-deaths-and-injuries

"Honda has already been hurt by its association with Takata, the Japanese supplier under numerous investigations for defective airbags that could send metal shards flying when deployed. The defect has been linked to at least five deaths, and dozens of injuries. NPR's Sonari Glinton told our Newscast Unit that Honda has recalled more than 7.5 million cars since 2004 because of the Takata airbag defect."

All from those ultra reliable, invincible foreign cars, ehhhh?

So why post silly stuff about GM only?

All cars put their wheels on one lug nut at a time.

uplanderguy

There's no bad in this recent story:

http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/gm-dominates-the-2015-kogod-made-in-america-automotive.html

circlew

Toyota and Honda should share jail time with GM!

andres3

imidazol97 said:

I'm sure folks are more upset about the 1700 deaths from Hondas:

"Honda Motor Co. said today that for years it failed to tell U.S. regulators about more than 1,700 injuries and deaths involving its cars. In an online statement on the issue, the company says it failed to properly report from 2003 to 2014, for a total of 1,729 "written claims or notices concerning injuries or deaths." Honda also admits that it underreported property damage claims and warranty claims.

"Honda says there was a delay between when it found out about the underreporting and when it started to fully investigate the issue. A "Honda associate" first noticed the issue in 2011, and the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration raised the issue with Honda in 2012, but a third-party audit didn't begin until September of this year."

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/11/24/366423486/honda-says-it-failed-to-report-over-1-700-deaths-and-injuries

"Honda has already been hurt by its association with Takata, the Japanese supplier under numerous investigations for defective airbags that could send metal shards flying when deployed. The defect has been linked to at least five deaths, and dozens of injuries. NPR's Sonari Glinton told our Newscast Unit that Honda has recalled more than 7.5 million cars since 2004 because of the Takata airbag defect."

All from those ultra reliable, invincible foreign cars, ehhhh?

So why post silly stuff about GM only?

All cars put their wheels on one lug nut at a time.

What do 1,700 injuries and/or deaths have to do with reliability? You seem to want to pretend that Honda plays the same sport as GM. I don't see any correlation from the 1,700 injuries/deaths and reliability, unless you are suggesting the Takata airbags failing to work properly has resulted in all of these 1700 deaths and injuries. So is it 5 deaths, and dozens of injuries, or 1,700? The story makes no mention of the cause of these injuries and deaths, so I think it's safe to assume the vast majority are driver error (and often could be another different vehicle causing involvement).

If it isn't all attributable to the air bags, then are not injuries and deaths more relate-able to bad drivers and bad driving?

circlew

What does reliability have to do with brand value?

Well, the answer is in the history....one failed bolt at a time!

berri

The Asians said US car companies wouldn't build plants there because their vehicles were too large for the marketplace. The D3 said they couldn't build cars there even if they wanted because the governments wouldn't let them (or at least would drag it out until they gave up). I suspect a bit of truth in both perspectives.

tlong

imidazol97 said:

I'm sure folks are more upset about the 1700 deaths from Hondas:

"Honda Motor Co. said today that for years it failed to tell U.S. regulators about more than 1,700 injuries and deaths involving its cars. In an online statement on the issue, the company says it failed to properly report from 2003 to 2014, for a total of 1,729 "written claims or notices concerning injuries or deaths." Honda also admits that it underreported property damage claims and warranty claims.

"Honda says there was a delay between when it found out about the underreporting and when it started to fully investigate the issue. A "Honda associate" first noticed the issue in 2011, and the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration raised the issue with Honda in 2012, but a third-party audit didn't begin until September of this year."

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/11/24/366423486/honda-says-it-failed-to-report-over-1-700-deaths-and-injuries

"Honda has already been hurt by its association with Takata, the Japanese supplier under numerous investigations for defective airbags that could send metal shards flying when deployed. The defect has been linked to at least five deaths, and dozens of injuries. NPR's Sonari Glinton told our Newscast Unit that Honda has recalled more than 7.5 million cars since 2004 because of the Takata airbag defect."

All from those ultra reliable, invincible foreign cars, ehhhh?

So why post silly stuff about GM only?

All cars put their wheels on one lug nut at a time.

Imid, if Honda was stonewalling it is unforgivable, just as Toyota and GM have done.

The quote is NOT 1700 deaths so your opening statement is misleading (deliberately?).

And for the umpteenth time I've seen statements in your posts with phrases implying perfection in foreign cars or makes such as "invincible foreign cars", "perfect", etc. I've asked before - who really has said or claimed that any make is perfect or invincible? It appears that is a wild over exaggeration to make a point - yet if there is a real point to be made, not sure why the exaggeration is so necessary.

Can you admit that certain brands are undoubtedly more reliable, overall, than others? And also that no automatkers are "perfect" or "invincible"?

I'd bet most posters would agree with those statements.

As always, I do enjoy your posts.

uplanderguy

If reliability tied into that chart of 'brand value', certainly M-B and BMW wouldn't be so high on the list. Some of that is perceived image.

I had a boss once who always said, 'perception is reality'. Perception was more important to him than reality.

circlew

Was it perception that the big 3 lost market share or was it a real shortage in reliability?

"Crappy cars" could have long-lasting "perception" issue for some brands long into the future.

circlew

Brand value perception or reality?

In each of the last five months, General Motors has failed to sell more than 1,800 copies of the CTS. Sub-2K CTS sales months are unheard-of. Even in 2012, when CTS volume slid 15%, Cadillac averaged 3,914 CTS sales per month in the United States and never fell below 2,300.

Let’s remember, the CTS is not positioned in the market the way it was in prior generations. It’s no longer an upsized 3-Series rival. No, it’s the ATS’s role to now be an undersized 3-Series rival. Instead, the CTS attempts to line up directly against the BMW 5-Series, a car which is averaging more than 4,100 monthly sales in 2015.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2015/06/chart-day-cadillac-cts-sales-41-2015/#more-1088321

uplanderguy

You can certainly admit that people, generally, want to buy into what other people are...without actually shopping around. Very few folks out there think otherwise, sadly.

But then, I'd have bought a new '64 Studebaker, so what do I know.

circlew

I can certainly admit 'me too' shopping can be a trend for some brands...but what explains the other brands that are doing better in the same category?

At some point, it's the lesser brand itself that is the issue with lower sales, particularly when it was the sales leader in the given category.

uplanderguy

At least some of it, too, has to be simply more players in the field than a couple decades ago. If there are two restaurants in town, and then there are five or six, chances are the first two's market share will be down.

circlew

Nothing has helped Cadillac close the gap with Mercedes and BMW. Last year, Cadillac sold 170,750 vehicles, down 47% from 1984, while the total market was up 9%.
Compared to Cadillac's 47% decline since 1984, Mercedes is up 350% and BMW is up 379%. And both brands outsell Cadillac by a wide margin.

berri

It will be interesting to see how the upcoming Lincoln Continental fares in the lux market.

uplanderguy

I don't think I'd want to be a stand-alone Lincoln dealer now.

uplanderguy

Re.: the Honda story, I appreciate the posting as I hadn't heard it. If it were GM or Chrysler, it would have been posted in bright colors here a few days ago.

Balance is not a bad thing.

anythngbutgm

andres3 said:

imidazol97 said:

I'm sure folks are more upset about the 1700 deaths from Hondas:

"Honda Motor Co. said today that for years it failed to tell U.S. regulators about more than 1,700 injuries and deaths involving its cars. In an online statement on the issue, the company says it failed to properly report from 2003 to 2014, for a total of 1,729 "written claims or notices concerning injuries or deaths." Honda also admits that it underreported property damage claims and warranty claims.

"Honda says there was a delay between when it found out about the underreporting and when it started to fully investigate the issue. A "Honda associate" first noticed the issue in 2011, and the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration raised the issue with Honda in 2012, but a third-party audit didn't begin until September of this year."

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/11/24/366423486/honda-says-it-failed-to-report-over-1-700-deaths-and-injuries

"Honda has already been hurt by its association with Takata, the Japanese supplier under numerous investigations for defective airbags that could send metal shards flying when deployed. The defect has been linked to at least five deaths, and dozens of injuries. NPR's Sonari Glinton told our Newscast Unit that Honda has recalled more than 7.5 million cars since 2004 because of the Takata airbag defect."

All from those ultra reliable, invincible foreign cars, ehhhh?

So why post silly stuff about GM only?

All cars put their wheels on one lug nut at a time.

What do 1,700 injuries and/or deaths have to do with reliability? You seem to want to pretend that Honda plays the same sport as GM. I don't see any correlation from the 1,700 injuries/deaths and reliability, unless you are suggesting the Takata airbags failing to work properly has resulted in all of these 1700 deaths and injuries. So is it 5 deaths, and dozens of injuries, or 1,700? The story makes no mention of the cause of these injuries and deaths, so I think it's safe to assume the vast majority are driver error (and often could be another different vehicle causing involvement).

If it isn't all attributable to the air bags, then are not injuries and deaths more relate-able to bad drivers and bad driving?

Honda/Takata airbags - 7 deaths in 7.5 million cars since 2004

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/06/10/takata-airbags--seventh-death/

GM ignition switches - 111 deaths in 2.35 million vehicles since 2001

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/06/11/feds-interview-gm-ceo-mary-barra/

anythngbutgm

And speaking of Lincoln...

http://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/news/2015/06/11/ford-is-killing-off-the-chicago-made-lincoln.html?ana=yahoo

circlew

Is it perception that is killing Lincoln? Could it be reality?

Where's the balance in the luxury auto category by the Big 3 vs. the rest of the world? Must be in the SUV arena, because it isn't the cars.

Actually, the global lux category is more balanced than decades ago.

berri

I kind of see the Continental as a do or die effort for Lincoln. They appear to be going traditional American lux with it instead of trying to be German. The successful D3 lux trucks (Escalade, Navigator) seem to be traditional American oriented, so we'll see if it can flow down to a sedan I guess.

OTOH - there is an article in one of the Detroit papers talking about how the new 2016 Ford Edge Titanium really is now a lux model at a lower price. So maybe Ford is gearing up should the Lincoln effort fail?

uplanderguy

I think most people will concede that, like the GM ignition switches (back to 2001? Really? The Cobalt was introduced as a 2005 model), that the number will go up in the Takata recalls as more cases make their way to the national news-level and even as more folks think they might be able to cash in.

I think Lincoln is more moribund than Cadillac, but the casual reader surely wouldn't recognize that from the number of posts here.

uplanderguy

I wish there was information on how many deaths and injuries result from lack of automatic headlights or even daytime running lights. Daily I see doofuses driving with zero lights on at night.

anythngbutgm

uplanderguy said:

I think most people will concede that, like the GM ignition switches (back to 2001? Really? The Cobalt was introduced as a 2005 model), that the number will go up in the Takata recalls as more cases make their way to the national news-level and even as more folks think they might be able to cash in.

I think Lincoln is more moribund than Cadillac, but the casual reader surely wouldn't recognize that from the number of posts here.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/03/12/autos/general-motors-ignition-switch-recall/

uplanderguy

"2001, during pre-production development"

Key word here is "pre-production".

anythngbutgm

uplanderguy said:

"2001, during pre-production development"

Key word here is "pre-production".

And you are grasping at straws to shill for your favorite automaker. Surprise, surprise...

http://www.autonews.com/article/20140312/OEM11/140319926/first-signs-of-gm-ignition-switch-flaw-emerged-in-2001

2001, 2004 or 2015, GM killed 111 people and tried to cover it up... But ignorance is bliss...

uplanderguy

The cars were not available to purchasers in 2001. I'm just a big believer in writing accurately.

I'm reminded of a year or two ago, someone had a list of service bulletins for a Chevy model that included bulletins ten or more years earlier than the car's introduction date. And we were supposed to take that post at face value.