Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

stickguy

Sounds like lane keep and stability control working together. And probably useful.

jmonroe

karhill1 said:

Comparing Josh McDaniels backing out of an apparent verbal agreement with the Colts to backing out of buying an ordered vehicle is not reasonable. Apples and Oranges. One is a life changing event the other is a vehicle, not life changing.

In McDaniels' situation he did what he believed was best for his family. That was to stay in Foxborough. For some of us, me for example, money is not the most important thing. Particularly when you already have enough to live well.

Did he potentially harm his future in the NFL aside from the Patriots? Most likely he did, at least in the short term. That is what makes his decision admirable. And surely he did not make his decision without much thought.

For many the well being of the family, the children, is most important. I actually have an older child, with school aged children, living five miles from Foxborough. Lovely wooded area, great schools, near the beaches of Cape Cod and the White and Green Mountains of New England. I cannot imagine a better place to raise a child.

Reports out of New England are the Krafts sweetened his contract with more money and Belichick granted McDaniels more say in how the Patriots are structured, draft and free agents. However, McDaniels has stated there were no assurances he would be the next head coach of the Patriots. Surely there was some head nodding in that direction.

In the end, McDaniels did the Colts a favor. It is far better for them to search for another head coach than it would have been for them to have a head coach who immediately regretted his decision to take the Colts head coach position.

Let's be honest Josh ain't no saint. He's been in Foxborough long enough to know what it has to offer for his family. Plain and simple, he was taking the head coaching job in Indianapolis because it offered him a position and more money. Nothing wrong with that but he weaseled out of that deal when the Patriots offered him more money and who knows what else at the last minute. He called their bluff and they flinched. The Patriots organization is, in my opinion the best in football, but they are known sneaks. So, Josh got his cues from the best sneak, Belacheat. You can't do better than that. I don't think their cheating made them the best team in the league but it sure didn't hurt, either. Like they say, "if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying".

Josh is a good offensive coordinator but his track record as a head coach leaves a lot to be desired. Just ask the Broncos about that. When he got there he gave away a good piece of the store to move up in the draft to take Tim Tebow. That did not work out well at all. He was chased out of there before he could do more damage. If you want more info on that ask our host @Michaell. Josh appears to be a coach that can coach the best quarterback in the game but not too good at recognizing an up and coming NFL quarterback. Andrew Luck is good but not good enough to trump big bucks, promises and let's not forget Foxborough scenery.

jmonroe

nyccarguy

roadburner said:

graphicguy said:

-Ford....there are trucks, SUVs and Mustangs. Everything else they have? Not sure they matter.

I'd also add the Fiesta ST and Focus ST/RS- but aside from those Ford and Lincoln are not on my radar...

I like the Bullitt Mustang and F150 Eco Boost FX4:)

I saw an ad for 0% Financing for 72 Months on Tacomas

Mr_Shiftright

stickguy said:

Sounds like lane keep and stability control working together. And probably useful.

I wonder how it measures wind pressure and opposed to just regular suspension lean? Or maybe it calibrates it some other way entirely?

abacomike

Mr_Shiftright said:

Well here's something new in nanny gadgets! Useful you think?

https://blog.caranddriver.com/problems-with-blow-crosswind-assist-is-coming-to-keep-you-and-your-sprinter-on-a-straight-path/

I've got "cross-wind assist" on my S450. We've had quite a strong wind from the east-southeast the past 24 hours. I noticed that the car adjusts itself to the cross wind when I was going up to Boca Raton this morning (north). Works nicely - slightly adjusting the vehicle as the wind gusted. I guess it's a nice feature, but not something I would order or pay extra for if it was a stand-alone option, that's for sure.

jmonroe

Mr_Shiftright said:

Well here's something new in nanny gadgets! Useful you think?

https://blog.caranddriver.com/problems-with-blow-crosswind-assist-is-coming-to-keep-you-and-your-sprinter-on-a-straight-path/

Not quite like looking at the wind sock when I was on a C-130 flight crew while in the Navy, but, I guess when you are driving a jacked-up SUV it doesn't hurt to have that nanny. What else, cars already have the equivalent of looking for the center-line when landing. Pretty soon when a driver gets scared and starts to hyperventilate, because they did something stupid, a drop down bag will be automatically placed over their mouth and nose. Watch for it.

C'mon man, this is too much already.

jmonroe

Mr_Shiftright

Hmmm....must work like lane-assist then. Interesting. I suspect it would be more useful on a Sprinter van than a passenger car.

Michaell

graphicguy said:

I haven’t driven a Civic in a while. So, not sure how the Accord fares in comparison. But, my TLX, the Accord I drove yesterday, etc....there’s a certain engineering focus on them that they share. Emphasis is on sport.

TLX is nicer inside. TLX V6 is smoother and makes better sounds (although the Accord’s turbo 4 is smooth, too.....for a 4 cyl). SH AWD does really make a difference through the curves. Generally, TLX materials are better...stereo is MUCH better.

But, for $8K less, you get 75%-80% of the TLX in the new Accord.

Honda is really getting back on their game. That’s good for all of us.

One thing, @graphicguy - the lease programs on the Accord are, in a word, awful. We've been telling folks who are interested in leasing an Accord to go check out the TLX instead. Much better lease deals to be had.

stickguy

that was the oddest thing about when I started looking at leasing. Recalibration of the brain to look at monthly payment, not price. My wife never did believe that we had to look at more expensive cars because they were actually cheaper!

A TLX I would lease. An accord I would buy.

driver100

A TLX I would lease. An accord I would buy.

Interesting how that works Stick, and a good rule to follow in many cases.

Enjoyed reading your review of the auto show GG. I saw a review about the recent Detroit Auto Show, said it was pretty boring...nothing much that was impressive. Are auto shows getting passe, new models come out at odd times during the year, there aren't too many futuristic cars, internet and 24 hour news brings you the latest developments.....and car companies don't make too many new car introductions at auto shows it seems?

isellhondas

tjc78 said:

abacomike said:

tjc78 said:

@abacomike

Cool rundown on how a dealership orders their inventory. I’ve probably told this story before, but right around the time I got my 2012 LaCrosse I was looking at a loaded up new generation Ford Taurus. The car was sharp ... and had a 40k sticker.

I was driving wife was in the passenger seat and salesman was in the back. I see my wife looking for a button or something. All of sudden she’s like “where is the button for the heated seats?”

Salesman explains where it should be and she says it’s not there. He seemed confused but by this time I’m pulling back into the dealer.

We scour the window sticker and low and behold someone messed up and ordered a very highly optioned car lacking heated seats. He joked. “someone’s in trouble”. I told him that car is saleproof without them at that price point. He agreed and said that most likely it would end up with dealer added seats if it didn’t sell.

No dealer in it’s right mind would spend a fortune to upgrade seats to heated seats.  They would ship the car to a dealer in a southern state - most it could cost would be $500-$750.  Much less than pulling out seats and adding heated seats.  Think about it!  The salesman was BS-ing you.

I’ve seen lower trim cars with dealer added heated seats so I didn’t think it was that far fetched.  

Good point about transferring it 

Dealer installed " Mickey Mouse" heated seats are pretty common. The farm the car out to an upholstery or speciality shop. They pull out the seats and install a heating pads and wire it to a switch that they mount somewhere on the dash. They seem to work bout as well as the factory installed ones.

isellhondas

driver100 said:

fintail said:

I remember seeing 10K ADMs on the Crossfire and SSR. Seems hilarious now. We all probably know about the big ADMs on loaded early PT Cruisers, too.

ADM is like the kiss of death.

driver100 said:

fintail said:

I remember seeing 10K ADMs on the Crossfire and SSR. Seems hilarious now. We all probably know about the big ADMs on loaded early PT Cruisers, too.

ADM is like the kiss of death.

Why do you feel that way?

MSRP is what the factory "suggests" is a fair price to pay for the car. Some people are happy to pay that. others pay less and some high demand low supply cars will command more. I fully under why a lot of people would never consider paying over MSRP for ANY car in fact, I am one of those people. I never HAVE to have a certain car or even a certain color.

Still, it's always the market that determines pricing and not some sticker on the side window.

In 1990 when Mazda introduced the Miata it was a Grand Slam over the fence HOME RUN! They got this one right and people lined up to snap the up. Mazda grossly underestimated the demand and had to scramble to ramp up production! People were happy to pay 2-3000 dollars over MSRP!

Much harder to believe was the fact the same thing happened when PT Cruisers came out! People went nuts over them and snapped everyone up at over MSRP!

Now, resale on these is worse than horrible.

In 1999 it was the same thing with the new Odysseys! We had people lined up to test drive them and had a devoted college student taking them out. It was NUTS! People were happy to pay over MSRP and wait six weeks! Did they pay too much...? Not to them and I guess that's what matters.

Houses are even worse especially now! A friend listed their house here for 850,000 and it sold the next day with lots of backup offers for 75,000 more than asking! NUTS but that's the market!

dino001

isellhondas said:

MSRP is what the factory "suggests" is a fair price to pay for the car. Some people are happy to pay that. others pay less and some high demand low supply cars will command more. I fully under why a lot of people would never consider paying over MSRP for ANY car in fact, I am one of those people. I never HAVE to have a certain car or even a certain color.

Still, it's always the market that determines pricing and not some sticker on the side window.
(...)

In 1999 it was the same thing with the new Odysseys! We had people lined up to test drive them and had a devoted college student taking them out. It was NUTS! People were happy to pay over MSRP and wait six weeks! Did they pay too much...? Not to them and I guess that's what matters.

I agree, but there is another side of this equation. If you it's not offensive to put umpteen grand on a sticker on a hot car, then it's not offensive to offer umpteen grand discount on one that is not, regardless of what dealer paid. If we as customers have to to smile and "just say no" to 10 grand ADM on 30 grand car, the salesman needs to be smile and "just say no" on some dope's "offer" of 10 grand discount, too. All without indignation. BTW, I myself would neither buy at 10 grand ADM, nor would I make such an "offensive" offer 10 grand below sticker on such a vehicle. I'm just saying, for the principle, as long as things can stay symmetric, I'm fine with somebody saying "what market would bear". I don't bring my mouths too feed, you don't bring yours. At worst, we just disagree on the price, either way would be alright.

driver100

"

driver100">

ADM is like the kiss of death

Why do you feel that way?

MSRP is what the factory "suggests" is a fair price to pay for the car. Some people are happy to pay that. others pay less and some high demand low supply cars will command more. I fully under why a lot of people would never consider paying over MSRP for ANY car in fact, I am one of those people. I never HAVE to have a certain car or even a certain color.



Posters gave lots of examples of cars people paid ADMs for, including the ones you mentioned, PT Cruiser and the first mazdas.........and many of them ended up being worth not any more than they would have been if sold at the MSRP. That is why "kiss of death" applies...it seems to backfire more than it works.

explorerx4

@nyccarguy,
Thanks for the shout out!

tbirdmarco

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AA1KPIBbMIk

stickguy

Mercedes has a huge display at the Philly show. Them and Lexus. They actually have a separate room which is just those 2 makes. There had to be at least 15-20 MBs on hand.

abacomike

tbirdmarco said:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AA1KPIBbMIk

Marco, very interesting about Mercedes considering discontinuing its participation in next year’s Detroit Auto Show.  If that happens, they will probably pull out of many of the local auto shows.

It might be interesting to find out how many consumers who attend auto shows actually go out and buy/lease a new car within 6-8 months of their attendance at an auto show to determine if the millions of dollars they spend on participation at auto shows is economically worthwhile.  (How’s that for a long sentence?)

Or it just might be Detroit itself!  The NYC auto show is more heavily attended than attendance at the Detroit show.  Same is true for the Chicago and Los Angeles shows.  But it has always been the Detroit auto show that manufacturers have used to introduce their updated/new models and technology.

Should be interesting!

oldfarmer50

isellhondas said:

driver100 said:

fintail said:

I remember seeing 10K ADMs on the Crossfire and SSR. Seems hilarious now. We all probably know about the big ADMs on loaded early PT Cruisers, too.

ADM is like the kiss of death.

driver100 said:

fintail said:

I remember seeing 10K ADMs on the Crossfire and SSR. Seems hilarious now. We all probably know about the big ADMs on loaded early PT Cruisers, too.

ADM is like the kiss of death.

Why do you feel that way?

MSRP is what the factory "suggests" is a fair price to pay for the car. Some people are happy to pay that. others pay less and some high demand low supply cars will command more. I fully under why a lot of people would never consider paying over MSRP for ANY car in fact, I am one of those people. I never HAVE to have a certain car or even a certain color.

Still, it's always the market that determines pricing and not some sticker on the side window.

In 1990 when Mazda introduced the Miata it was a Grand Slam over the fence HOME RUN! They got this one right and people lined up to snap the up. Mazda grossly underestimated the demand and had to scramble to ramp up production! People were happy to pay 2-3000 dollars over MSRP!

Much harder to believe was the fact the same thing happened when PT Cruisers came out! People went nuts over them and snapped everyone up at over MSRP!

Now, resale on these is worse than horrible.

In 1999 it was the same thing with the new Odysseys! We had people lined up to test drive them and had a devoted college student taking them out. It was NUTS! People were happy to pay over MSRP and wait six weeks! Did they pay too much...? Not to them and I guess that's what matters.

Houses are even worse especially now! A friend listed their house here for 850,000 and it sold the next day with lots of backup offers for 75,000 more than asking! NUTS but that's the market!

Face it, most people are sheep who get stampeded by trendy things. ADM is the price you pay for chasing fads.

OTOH, I have to disagree on the PT Cruiser. I get letters constantly from dealers telling me my wife's car is in "high demand" and offering "top dollar" if I trade.

Good thing too because I was starting to think it was a mildly useful grocery getter with questionable build quality and rotten gas milage.

fintail

Regarding ADM, I remember when the new R129 SL debuted for MY 1990, they were getting huge markups - 20K+ wasn't uncommon early on. The new car was so new, and the old car was so old, that there was a ton of pent-up demand.

MB left the Vancouver auto show for a few years, which is odd as Vancouver is a destination for offshore money (laundering) and there is a lot of idle cash floating around. Apparently the brand has returned for 2018, so I can see some of the models not seen in Murkaland.

driver100

I hear the Detroit Auto Show is getting a little stale. Will sales actually fall if they don't attend? How many more cars will people buy because they are represented in the auto show? Most businesses are reviewing their sales models and testing to see if there is a more effective way of selling cars. I doubt it will impact sales very much if MB pulls out, and they can get more value out of advertising or doing more local events.

driver100

isellhondas said:

driver100 said:

fintail said:

I remember seeing 10K ADMs on the Crossfire and SSR. Seems hilarious now. We all probably know about the big ADMs on loaded early PT Cruisers, too.

ADM is like the kiss of death.

driver100 said:

fintail said:

I remember seeing 10K ADMs on the Crossfire and SSR. Seems hilarious now. We all probably know about the big ADMs on loaded early PT Cruisers, too.

ADM is like the kiss of death.

Now, resale on these is worse than horrible.

In 1999 it was the same thing with the new Odysseys! We had people lined up to test drive them and had a devoted college student taking them out. It was NUTS! People were happy to pay over MSRP and wait six weeks! Did they pay too much...? Not to them and I guess that's what matters.

The odessey is a good example of kiss of death theory. The car was in high demand (rightly so, great van) when it came out.....people would pay more than MSRP, great for sales staff and dealers. The guy who buys it and then trades it in won't get his premium payment back...it will be worth the same as a van that came out 10 months later and sold for less than MSRP.

Like OF says...if you want the latest toy - fad, you may have to pay a premium for the privelidge.

nyccarguy

explorerx4 said:

@nyccarguy, Thanks for the shout out!

You've got a sweet lookin truck my friend.  I recently saw an Edmunds short video of them testing an EcoBoost 4WD 0-60.  4x4 Hi, Sport, mash the gas, then dial it back to 2WD.  You like yours.  I know @qbrozen is impressed with his.  I wish I had a practical use for a pickup.

murphydog

driver100 said:

isellhondas said:

driver100 said:

fintail said:

I remember seeing 10K ADMs on the Crossfire and SSR. Seems hilarious now. We all probably know about the big ADMs on loaded early PT Cruisers, too.

ADM is like the kiss of death.

driver100 said:

fintail said:

I remember seeing 10K ADMs on the Crossfire and SSR. Seems hilarious now. We all probably know about the big ADMs on loaded early PT Cruisers, too.

ADM is like the kiss of death.

Now, resale on these is worse than horrible.

In 1999 it was the same thing with the new Odysseys! We had people lined up to test drive them and had a devoted college student taking them out. It was NUTS! People were happy to pay over MSRP and wait six weeks! Did they pay too much...? Not to them and I guess that's what matters.

The odessey is a good example of kiss of death theory. The car was in high demand (rightly so, great van) when it came out.....people would pay more than MSRP, great for sales staff and dealers. The guy who buys it and then trades it in won't get his premium payment back...it will be worth the same as a van that came out 10 months later and sold for less than MSRP.

Like OF says...if you want the latest toy - fad, you may have to pay a premium for the privelidge.

I still don't get the kiss of death here? Customers wanted a nice car that was in limited supply. Clearly to them the additional $$ was worth it or they would have waited 6 months for production to catch up, right?

Did they pay more than you or I would have? Absolutely, and when they sell or trade it they will take a bigger loss - but for them it was worth it or else they would not have done the deal?

Now a "limited" supply vehicle that has been sitting on the showroom floor for 18 months and still has an ADM price that the dealer is sticking to? Well, as they say, "you can't fix stupid"...

qbrozen

nyccarguy said:

explorerx4 said:

@nyccarguy, Thanks for the shout out!

You've got a sweet lookin truck my friend.  I recently saw an Edmunds short video of them testing an EcoBoost 4WD 0-60.  4x4 Hi, Sport, mash the gas, then dial it back to 2WD.  You like yours.  I know @qbrozen is impressed with his.  I wish I had a practical use for a pickup.

Close. For best takeoffs, I also turn off TC, stand on the brake, rev to 2k, then release brake.

oldfarmer50

qbrozen said:

nyccarguy said:

explorerx4 said:

@nyccarguy,
Thanks for the shout out!

You've got a sweet lookin truck my friend.  I recently saw an Edmunds short video of them testing an EcoBoost 4WD 0-60.  4x4 Hi, Sport, mash the gas, then dial it back to 2WD.  You like yours.  I know @qbrozen is impressed with his.  I wish I had a practical use for a pickup.

Close. For best takeoffs, I also turn off TC, stand on the brake, rev to 2k, then release brake.

What? Doesn't that truck have line lock? My Ford does.

(Although so far I've been too cowardly to use it.)

qbrozen

Sure it does! My left foot. ;b

But, seriously, line lock and 4wd don't mix.

driver100

A new model malibu went by me yesterday, and I noticed how small the rear window viewing area is. Although the glass area is large, the actual viewing distance looks like it is about 5 or 6 inches high. I am not sure how that would look from inside the car, but, I would want to look at that carefully if I was considering a Malibu.


I wonder if these low roofs and narrow windows are from trying to maximize gas mileage. I would rather get a mile or two less gas mileage but have better vision and more headroom....personally.

murphydog said:

driver100 said:

isellhondas said:

driver100 said:

fintail said:

I remember seeing 10K ADMs on the Crossfire and SSR. Seems hilarious now. We all probably know about the big ADMs on loaded early PT Cruisers, too.

ADM is like the kiss of death.

driver100 said:

fintail said:

I remember seeing 10K ADMs on the Crossfire and SSR. Seems hilarious now. We all probably know about the big ADMs on loaded early PT Cruisers, too.

ADM is like the kiss of death.

Now, resale on these is worse than horrible.

In 1999 it was the same thing with the new Odysseys! We had people lined up to test drive them and had a devoted college student taking them out. It was NUTS! People were happy to pay over MSRP and wait six weeks! Did they pay too much...? Not to them and I guess that's what matters.

The odessey is a good example of kiss of death theory. The car was in high demand (rightly so, great van) when it came out.....people would pay more than MSRP, great for sales staff and dealers. The guy who buys it and then trades it in won't get his premium payment back...it will be worth the same as a van that came out 10 months later and sold for less than MSRP.

Like OF says...if you want the latest toy - fad, you may have to pay a premium for the privelidge.

I still don't get the kiss of death here? Customers wanted a nice car that was in limited supply. Clearly to them the additional $$ was worth it or they would have waited 6 months for production to catch up, right?

Did they pay more than you or I would have? Absolutely, and when they sell or trade it they will take a bigger loss - but for them it was worth it or else they would not have done the deal?
"...

Kiss of death refers only to the value of the car in the future. If someone wants to be first on the block with a new whatever, and they want to pay a premium that is up to them. Like I say, I did it to get my 2008 BMW hardtop convertible. At trade in time it wasn't worth one penny more than it would have been if I had waited a few months and got a discount. In a majority of cases, it seems that when you pay an additional ADM, you will come out behind financially...and that is all kiss of death refers to...is the value of the car will go down disproportionately. Unfortunately, the PT Cruiser is a perfect example.....they were so cool to begin with people were paying ADMs to buy them, now, it is hard to give them away...except for oldfarmers car which the dealer needs for customers banging at his door wanting one.

dino001

oldfarmer50 said:

OTOH, I have to disagree on the PT Cruiser. I get letters constantly from dealers telling me my wife's car is in "high demand" and offering "top dollar" if I trade.

And you believe them? I would really like to see that "top dollar". BTW, do they acknowledge in the letter that it is indeed a PT Cruiser, or is that a generic letter that doesn't even mention the actual vehicle?

graphicguy

Not sure why Mercedes pulled out of Cincinnati. Their competition was there.....in force. Lexus had one of the biggest booths just for them. BMW and Audi were well represented, too.

I think these things are funded by the dealers. There are 3 MB dealers in the local area (not including Dayton). I suppose they got together and decided not to participate. To me, that’s a grave marketing mistake, as the other lux brands were teaming with people in their booths.

I forgot about a couple of “look-sees” I had at the car show. I know the Kia Stinger is the “hot number” among enthusiasts. And, I still haven’t driven one. But, there wasn’t a whole lot of difference in the “look” of it, inside and out, than there is of a Kia Cadenza (yeah, they actually had one there). YEs, the Stinger was lower, but the interior didn’t feel like it belonged in a $50K car. While not a bad thing, but it felt like a Kia. I’m sure a drive would change my mind.

LAnd Rover has some nice SUVs. I just don’t see many of them on local roads. MAybe they don’t have to sell many around here.

Nissan.....again, it shouldn’t be this way, but I’ve nearly forgotten them. When’s the last time they updated the 370? They had one there. But, it could have just as easily been a 2008 model. I know they just redid the Maxima. Not a fan of it. Too bad, as it used to be a credible Japanese sports sedan.

Was pretty amazed by the traction the Genesis had. Lots of people crowding around it. I looked at the G80. Hyundai seems to have the trappings right. I test drove one a couple of years ago. It was nice. But, not anything that excited me. Doesn’t mean it’s a bad car, just not something that would make it to my short list.

@Michaell ....Maybe I should lease. I just have an aversion to doing so. For me anyway, it’s not adavantageous financially. And, from what I can gather, you’re into the car for about 3 years. Sometimes (OK....many times) I’m not in a car for 3 years.

I guess Honda isn’t doing any lease support on the Accord, and Acura is. That doesn’t surprise me given that most I know who have lux cars, lease them.

oldfarmer50

dino001 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

OTOH, I have to disagree on the PT Cruiser. I get letters constantly from dealers telling me my wife's car is in "high demand" and offering "top dollar" if I trade.

And you believe them? I would really like to see that "top dollar". BTW, do they acknowledge in the letter that it is indeed a PT Cruiser, or is that a generic letter that doesn't even mention the actual vehicle?

Of course not, this old boy didn't just fall off the turnip truck. I'm so cynical that when my wife says "good morning" I look out the window first before responding. Most of the offers are from the original dealer so they get the car right.

Top dollar? LOL I'd like to see what that is too. Edmunds says $3100 PP and $4100 dealer with 40 k miles and average condition. Area dealers are asking $6k for higher milage so maybe they know something I don't.

My favorite solicitation is from the third party warranty companies that warn me that my factory warranty on my 9 year old car is "about to expire".

abacomike

nyccarguy said:

explorerx4 said:

@nyccarguy, Thanks for the shout out!

You've got a sweet lookin truck my friend.  I recently saw an Edmunds short video of them testing an EcoBoost 4WD 0-60.  4x4 Hi, Sport, mash the gas, then dial it back to 2WD.  You like yours.  I know @qbrozen is impressed with his.  I wish I had a practical use for a pickup.

Bradd, when I start my Grave Digging job next month, I’ll be looking at 4x4 pick-ups.  NO!  I can’t bring myself to do that - the heck with the grave digging job - now what did I do with that Uber phone number?  

driver100

GG I think these things are funded by the dealers. There are 3 MB dealers in the local area (not including Dayton). I suppose they got together and decided not to participate. To me, that’s a grave marketing mistake, as the other lux brands were teaming with people in their booths

I followed up and read an article in the Detroit Free press and the dealers seemed to be upset that MB wouldn't be at the show...they count on it for sales. My guess would be the dealers contribute but MB probably pays most of the cost. I know from the publishing biz and related businesses, the costs vs. benefits have to be weighed these days.........and, maybe it is also a snub or at least a reevaluation of the importance of the Detroit Auto Show.

driver100

abacomike said:

nyccarguy said:

explorerx4 said:

@nyccarguy,
Thanks for the shout out!

You've got a sweet lookin truck my friend.  I recently saw an Edmunds short video of them testing an EcoBoost 4WD 0-60.  4x4 Hi, Sport, mash the gas, then dial it back to 2WD.  You like yours.  I know @qbrozen is impressed with his.  I wish I had a practical use for a pickup.

Bradd, when I start my Grave Digging job next month, I’ll be looking at 4x4 pick-ups.  NO!  I can’t bring myself to do that - the heck with the grave digging job - now what did I do with that Uber phone number?  

Yeh, like how long have you had this car now Mike? You must be getting low in washer fluid, time to look around.

abacomike

oldfarmer50 said:

OTOH, I have to disagree on the PT Cruiser. I get letters constantly from dealers telling me my wife's car is in "high demand" and offering "top dollar" if I trade.

And you believe them? I would really like to see that "top dollar". BTW, do they acknowledge in the letter that it is indeed a PT Cruiser, or is that a generic letter that doesn't even mention the actual vehicle?

Of course not, this old boy didn't just fall off the turnip truck. I'm so cynical that when my wife says "good morning" I look out the window first before responding. Most of the offers are from the original dealer so they get the car right. Top dollar? LOL I'd like to see what that is too. My favorite solicitation is from the third party warranty companies that warn me that my factory warranty on my 9 year old car is "about to expire".

OF - I get at least one call a week asking me to take out an extended warranty on my 2018 S450 - yes you heard me right - they actually inform me that the warranty on the 2018 S450 is about to expire!  Who do they think is going to believe that sales pitch?

driver100

oldfarmer50 said:

dino001 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

OTOH, I have to disagree on the PT Cruiser. I get letters constantly from dealers telling me my wife's car is in "high demand" and offering "top dollar" if I trade.

And you believe them? I would really like to see that "top dollar". BTW, do they acknowledge in the letter that it is indeed a PT Cruiser, or is that a generic letter that doesn't even mention the actual vehicle?

My favorite solicitation is from the third party warranty companies that warn me that my factory warranty on my 9 year old car is "about to expire".

I got mail, I got phone calls telling me my Passat warranty was up for a year after the warranty was over, and for 2 years while it was still on. I would tell them on the phone I no longer had the car, don't call me, but, a new person would call the next month. They don't bother taking you off the list, as that would take time away from their awful job of calling people whoo don't want to be bothered. We are on the no call list and I haven't dealt with these people so how are they able to keep calling me?

abacomike

driver100 said:

nyccarguy said:

explorerx4 said:

@nyccarguy, Thanks for the shout out!

You've got a sweet lookin truck my friend.  I recently saw an Edmunds short video of them testing an EcoBoost 4WD 0-60.  4x4 Hi, Sport, mash the gas, then dial it back to 2WD.  You like yours.  I know @qbrozen is impressed with his.  I wish I had a practical use for a pickup.

Bradd, when I start my Grave Digging job next month, I’ll be looking at 4x4 pick-ups.  NO!  I can’t bring myself to do that - the heck with the grave digging job - now what did I do with that Uber phone number?  

Yeh, like how long have you had this car now Mike? You must be getting low in washer fluid, time to look around.

Driver, I am going to tell you this one more time - it would cost me $20,000+ just to buy out of the lease and I just put $24,500 down to get a $583.00 monthly payment.  Then what? Another $30,000+ to get into another car.  I told you I was so buried in this lease that i’d Need a bull dozer to pull me out of this grave.

dino001

oldfarmer50 said:

My favorite solicitation is from the third party warranty companies that warn me that my factory warranty on my 9 year old car is "about to expire".

I like "our records indicate that you did not respond to...". I also love how they call themselves. "Vehicle Service Department", "Department of Motor Services". Logo has usually a stylized eagle to make you believe it's coming from some kind of government agency. BTW, similar things are with home appliance service people. I only wonder who would buy this, cause for me it's a such a deterrent that even if I were in the market for an extended warranty, a self-named organization like that would be crossed from the list before I even start making one. It just screams "stay away".

dino001

I no longer go to auto shows in Tampa. Same old boring tired stuff. Usually brand new models don't even make it to the floor, or if they do, they're placed on a pedestal, or behind ropes. Good save you would look inside. Lexus display has been absolute worst for years - from gear shifters preemptively removed on some old model, to locking their newer models, (not even have to be the expensive ones, just the newer ones). Funny, but other brands in the same segments usually kept their vehicles open and they certainly din't take gear shifters out. I remember many years ago Jaguar displaying their top executive long-base limousines, completely open, so everybody could sit inside, they didn't even guard them, yet Lexus had its somewhat new IS350 locked up. To me is a sign of certain level of disrespect to the public.

Many of those exhibits had no visible staff hanging out. If any, almost never factory based, just an unhappy salesman acting like he was sent to Siberia by his boss. In that regard, BMW has always been ok, you could open, sit inside, open trunk, you actually had some people to talk to and they didn't act unhappy.

Anyway, I just don't get excited by this anymore, especially that it usually involves being stuck in traffic, having trouble with finding a proper parking spot and general misery of large gathering. The payoff is no longer there for me.

murphydog

driver100 said:

A new model malibu went by me yesterday, and I noticed how small the rear window viewing area is. Although the glass area is large, the actual viewing distance looks like it is about 5 or 6 inches high. I am not sure how that would look from inside the car, but, I would want to look at that carefully if I was considering a Malibu.


I wonder if these low roofs and narrow windows are from trying to maximize gas mileage. I would rather get a mile or two less gas mileage but have better vision and more headroom....personally.

murphydog said:

driver100 said:

isellhondas said:

driver100 said:

fintail said:

I remember seeing 10K ADMs on the Crossfire and SSR. Seems hilarious now. We all probably know about the big ADMs on loaded early PT Cruisers, too.

ADM is like the kiss of death.

driver100 said:

fintail said:

I remember seeing 10K ADMs on the Crossfire and SSR. Seems hilarious now. We all probably know about the big ADMs on loaded early PT Cruisers, too.

ADM is like the kiss of death.

Now, resale on these is worse than horrible.

In 1999 it was the same thing with the new Odysseys! We had people lined up to test drive them and had a devoted college student taking them out. It was NUTS! People were happy to pay over MSRP and wait six weeks! Did they pay too much...? Not to them and I guess that's what matters.

The odessey is a good example of kiss of death theory. The car was in high demand (rightly so, great van) when it came out.....people would pay more than MSRP, great for sales staff and dealers. The guy who buys it and then trades it in won't get his premium payment back...it will be worth the same as a van that came out 10 months later and sold for less than MSRP.

Like OF says...if you want the latest toy - fad, you may have to pay a premium for the privelidge.

I still don't get the kiss of death here? Customers wanted a nice car that was in limited supply. Clearly to them the additional $$ was worth it or they would have waited 6 months for production to catch up, right?

Did they pay more than you or I would have? Absolutely, and when they sell or trade it they will take a bigger loss - but for them it was worth it or else they would not have done the deal?
"...

Kiss of death refers only to the value of the car in the future. If someone wants to be first on the block with a new whatever, and they want to pay a premium that is up to them. Like I say, I did it to get my 2008 BMW hardtop convertible. At trade in time it wasn't worth one penny more than it would have been if I had waited a few months and got a discount. In a majority of cases, it seems that when you pay an additional ADM, you will come out behind financially...and that is all kiss of death refers to...is the value of the car will go down disproportionately. Unfortunately, the PT Cruiser is a perfect example.....they were so cool to begin with people were paying ADMs to buy them, now, it is hard to give them away...except for oldfarmers car which the dealer needs for customers banging at his door wanting one.

Ah got it - and agree, virtually no car with an ADM provides some kind of extra benefit at trade it/sell time.

It is amazing to me that there are still dealers that have ADMs on all their cars - in fact when I bought my truck the web showed MSRP, less a significant mark down for the final price. ON the lot there was the standard MSRP sticker, plus an ADM of $5K. The difference between the web and what was on the truck was $20K! The salesperson never once mentioned that "fake" price and started right at the discounted web price, other wise I would have walked away

houdini1

driver100 said:

"

driver100">

ADM is like the kiss of death

Why do you feel that way?

MSRP is what the factory "suggests" is a fair price to pay for the car. Some people are happy to pay that. others pay less and some high demand low supply cars will command more. I fully under why a lot of people would never consider paying over MSRP for ANY car in fact, I am one of those people. I never HAVE to have a certain car or even a certain color.

Posters gave lots of examples of cars people paid ADMs for, including the ones you mentioned, PT Cruiser and the first mazdas.........and many of them ended up being worth not any more than they would have been if sold at the MSRP. That is why "kiss of death" applies...it seems to backfire more than it works.

Yes, houses are expected to increase in value, cars, not so much.

jmonroe

oldfarmer50 said:

dino001 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

OTOH, I have to disagree on the PT Cruiser. I get letters constantly from dealers telling me my wife's car is in "high demand" and offering "top dollar" if I trade.

And you believe them? I would really like to see that "top dollar". BTW, do they acknowledge in the letter that it is indeed a PT Cruiser, or is that a generic letter that doesn't even mention the actual vehicle?

Of course not, this old boy didn't just fall off the turnip truck. I'm so cynical that when my wife says "good morning" I look out the window first before responding. Most of the offers are from the original dealer so they get the car right.

Top dollar? LOL I'd like to see what that is too. Edmunds says $3100 PP and $4100 dealer with 40 k miles and average condition. Area dealers are asking $6k for higher milage so maybe they know something I don't.

My favorite solicitation is from the third party warranty companies that warn me that my factory warranty on my 9 year old car is "about to expire".

I can't exactly say my favorite solicitation is from third party warranty companies but I did get a guy that was pretty upbeat when he called last year for Mrs. j's 21012 Subie. When I told him I didn't have that car anymore and bought a new one, therefore, I was covered by the factory warranty so I didn't need any warranty. Without any hesitation he said, "hey, I can get you extended coverage for your new car for less than a dealer charges". When I told him I didn't even tell him what car I now have he said, "doesn't matter we cover all cars at almost any age or mileage". I'll bet they do too, just don't want to hear the price.

The mailings I seem to get at least once a month for the Subie only shows the different extended month periods without a price but tells me to hurry before I am out of warranty and will have expensive repairs when that happens.

I'm almost tempted to tell them I'm @jmonroe not @driver100.

jmonroe

fintail

The low roof 6 window look is what I call Fauxdi syndrome - many makers want to emulate Audi, a brand which many normal consumers see as a vanguard of style and design. Form over function. As you know, at least MB still makes a few somewhat traditional sedans. And some low roof cars too, the "coupes" like CLS and CLA.

I think the kiss of death might be overrated. Very few modern cars have any appreciation potential, and many depreciate significantly. An initial wave of demand that outpaces production wont' change that. Once production catches up, the story changes. One can find an immaculate 1990 500SL for less than the price of the original ADM today.

driver100 said:

A new model malibu went by me yesterday, and I noticed how small the rear window viewing area is. Although the glass area is large, the actual viewing distance looks like it is about 5 or 6 inches high. I am not sure how that would look from inside the car, but, I would want to look at that carefully if I was considering a Malibu.

driver100

murphydog said:

driver100 said:

A new model malibu went by me yesterday, and I noticed how small the rear window viewing area is. Although the glass area is large, the actual viewing distance looks like it is about 5 or 6 inches high. I am not sure how that would look from inside the car, but, I would want to look at that carefully if I was considering a Malibu.


I wonder if these low roofs and narrow windows are from trying to maximize gas mileage. I would rather get a mile or two less gas mileage but have better vision and more headroom....personally.

murphydog said:

driver100 said:

isellhondas said:

driver100 said:

fintail said:

I remember seeing 10K ADMs on the Crossfire and SSR. Seems hilarious now. We all probably know about the big ADMs on loaded early PT Cruisers, too.

ADM is like the kiss of death.

driver100 said:

fintail said:

I remember seeing 10K ADMs on the Crossfire and SSR. Seems hilarious now. We all probably know about the big ADMs on loaded early PT Cruisers, too.

ADM is like the kiss of death.

Now, resale on these is worse than horrible.

In 1999 it was the same thing with the new Odysseys! We had people lined up to test drive them and had a devoted college student taking them out. It was NUTS! People were happy to pay over MSRP and wait six weeks! Did they pay too much...? Not to them and I guess that's what matters.

The odessey is a good example of kiss of death theory. The car was in high demand (rightly so, great van) when it came out.....people would pay more than MSRP, great for sales staff and dealers. The guy who buys it and then trades it in won't get his premium payment back...it will be worth the same as a van that came out 10 months later and sold for less than MSRP.

Like OF says...if you want the latest toy - fad, you may have to pay a premium for the privelidge.

I still don't get the kiss of death here? Customers wanted a nice car that was in limited supply. Clearly to them the additional $$ was worth it or they would have waited 6 months for production to catch up, right?

Did they pay more than you or I would have? Absolutely, and when they sell or trade it they will take a bigger loss - but for them it was worth it or else they would not have done the deal?
"...

Kiss of death refers only to the value of the car in the future. If someone wants to be first on the block with a new whatever, and they want to pay a premium that is up to them. Like I say, I did it to get my 2008 BMW hardtop convertible. At trade in time it wasn't worth one penny more than it would have been if I had waited a few months and got a discount. In a majority of cases, it seems that when you pay an additional ADM, you will come out behind financially...and that is all kiss of death refers to...is the value of the car will go down disproportionately. Unfortunately, the PT Cruiser is a perfect example.....they were so cool to begin with people were paying ADMs to buy them, now, it is hard to give them away...except for oldfarmers car which the dealer needs for customers banging at his door wanting one.

It is amazing to me that there are still dealers that have ADMs on all their cars - in fact when I bought my truck the web showed MSRP, less a significant mark down for the final price. ON the lot there was the standard MSRP sticker, plus an ADM of $5K. The difference between the web and what was on the truck was $20K! The salesperson never once mentioned that "fake" price and started right at the discounted web price, other wise I would have walked away

Murph, I wouldn't be surprised if the dealer adds the $5000 ADM to the MSRP so that the following week they can discount that from the price of their truck for an ad. In other words, they take a truck that has a MSRP of $35k, add an ADM of $5000 to make the truck valued at $40k, then the next week they do a screamer ad, and instead of saying a $35k truck for $30k, they can now legally say a $40k truck for $30k....or even better, $40k truck with $10k discount!

Car dealers don't do something for nothing, or to be nice guys.

driver100

jmonroe said:

oldfarmer50 said:

dino001 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

OTOH, I have to disagree on the PT Cruiser. I get letters constantly from dealers telling me my wife's car is in "high demand" and offering "top dollar" if I trade.

And you believe them? I would really like to see that "top dollar". BTW, do they acknowledge in the letter that it is indeed a PT Cruiser, or is that a generic letter that doesn't even mention the actual vehicle?

Of course not, this old boy didn't just fall off the turnip truck. I'm so cynical that when my wife says "good morning" I look out the window first before responding. Most of the offers are from the original dealer so they get the car right.

Top dollar? LOL I'd like to see what that is too. Edmunds says $3100 PP and $4100 dealer with 40 k miles and average condition. Area dealers are asking $6k for higher milage so maybe they know something I don't.

My favorite solicitation is from the third party warranty companies that warn me that my factory warranty on my 9 year old car is "about to expire".

I can't exactly say my favorite solicitation is from third party warranty companies but I did get a guy that was pretty upbeat when he called last year for Mrs. j's 21012 Subie. When I told him I didn't have that car anymore and bought a new one, therefore, I was covered by the factory warranty so I didn't need any warranty. Without any hesitation he said, "hey, I can get you extended coverage for your new car for less than a dealer charges". When I told him I didn't even tell him what car I now have he said, "doesn't matter we cover all cars at almost any age or mileage". I'll bet they do too, just don't want to hear the price.

The mailings I seem to get at least once a month for the Subie only shows the different extended month periods without a price but tells me to hurry before I am out of warranty and will have expensive repairs when that happens.

I'm almost tempted to tell them I'm @jmonroe not @driver100.

jmonroe

One thing about Driver....he wouldn't even bother talking to one of those guys. I have enough going on in my life that I don't have to engage in a conversation with an extended warranty sales scam guy. :@

murphydog

driver100 said:

murphydog said:

driver100 said:

A new model malibu went by me yesterday, and I noticed how small the rear window viewing area is. Although the glass area is large, the actual viewing distance looks like it is about 5 or 6 inches high. I am not sure how that would look from inside the car, but, I would want to look at that carefully if I was considering a Malibu.


I wonder if these low roofs and narrow windows are from trying to maximize gas mileage. I would rather get a mile or two less gas mileage but have better vision and more headroom....personally.

murphydog said:

driver100 said:

isellhondas said:

driver100 said:

fintail said:

I remember seeing 10K ADMs on the Crossfire and SSR. Seems hilarious now. We all probably know about the big ADMs on loaded early PT Cruisers, too.

ADM is like the kiss of death.

driver100 said:

fintail said:

I remember seeing 10K ADMs on the Crossfire and SSR. Seems hilarious now. We all probably know about the big ADMs on loaded early PT Cruisers, too.

ADM is like the kiss of death.

Now, resale on these is worse than horrible.

In 1999 it was the same thing with the new Odysseys! We had people lined up to test drive them and had a devoted college student taking them out. It was NUTS! People were happy to pay over MSRP and wait six weeks! Did they pay too much...? Not to them and I guess that's what matters.

The odessey is a good example of kiss of death theory. The car was in high demand (rightly so, great van) when it came out.....people would pay more than MSRP, great for sales staff and dealers. The guy who buys it and then trades it in won't get his premium payment back...it will be worth the same as a van that came out 10 months later and sold for less than MSRP.

Like OF says...if you want the latest toy - fad, you may have to pay a premium for the privelidge.

I still don't get the kiss of death here? Customers wanted a nice car that was in limited supply. Clearly to them the additional $$ was worth it or they would have waited 6 months for production to catch up, right?

Did they pay more than you or I would have? Absolutely, and when they sell or trade it they will take a bigger loss - but for them it was worth it or else they would not have done the deal?
"...

Kiss of death refers only to the value of the car in the future. If someone wants to be first on the block with a new whatever, and they want to pay a premium that is up to them. Like I say, I did it to get my 2008 BMW hardtop convertible. At trade in time it wasn't worth one penny more than it would have been if I had waited a few months and got a discount. In a majority of cases, it seems that when you pay an additional ADM, you will come out behind financially...and that is all kiss of death refers to...is the value of the car will go down disproportionately. Unfortunately, the PT Cruiser is a perfect example.....they were so cool to begin with people were paying ADMs to buy them, now, it is hard to give them away...except for oldfarmers car which the dealer needs for customers banging at his door wanting one.

It is amazing to me that there are still dealers that have ADMs on all their cars - in fact when I bought my truck the web showed MSRP, less a significant mark down for the final price. ON the lot there was the standard MSRP sticker, plus an ADM of $5K. The difference between the web and what was on the truck was $20K! The salesperson never once mentioned that "fake" price and started right at the discounted web price, other wise I would have walked away

Murph, I wouldn't be surprised if the dealer adds the $5000 ADM to the MSRP so that the following week they can discount that from the price of their truck for an ad. In other words, they take a truck that has a MSRP of $35k, add an ADM of $5000 to make the truck valued at $40k, then the next week they do a screamer ad, and instead of saying a $35k truck for $30k, they can now legally say a $40k truck for $30k....or even better, $40k truck with $10k discount!

Car dealers don't do something for nothing, or to be nice guys.

That makes sense, but these guys seemed to play it both ways. The Web price made no mention of the ADM - simply MSRP minus all these discounts and here is the price. Yet if you walked on the lot and looked you would have seen MSRP PLUS an ADM sticker. I felt bad for the few ignorant shoppers out there who don't use the web.

Even weirder is that they really were no pressure, let me look, test drive and leave without any "what will it take to buy it today" garbage. In the end I was happy with the deal that I got, but my radar was on red alert the whole time I was there.

28firefighter

My SIL bought from CJDR Seattle and they told me they had a similar experience. When they arrived to the dealer the number they got was vastly higher than what was online. My BIL called them on it and they tried to play it off like it was only on certain models - then he showed them the matching VIN.

driver100

28firefighter said:

My SIL bought from CJDR Seattle and they told me they had a similar experience. When they arrived to the dealer the number they got was vastly higher than what was online. My BIL called them on it and they tried to play it off like it was only on certain models - then he showed them the matching VIN.

I like those gottcha moments! People who are web savvy are very different from the walk in clueless car buyer. If a person walks in, didn't do any homework, they are a perfect target for these guys....they have no idea what the "real" price" is. These guys love those customers. I can see them now waiting in anticipation in the showroom....hey, here comes a walk in and it is my turn.......OK lady, make my day!

Sandman6472

Have driven multiple new 2018 Camrys at work and live 'email because they do everything right! Not super fancy and gas good ole knobs for the infotainment system with looks that are o k. Haven't driven a new Accord yet and we don't have any yet in our fleet but can not wait. Definitely is a big vehicle which is not something I gravitate to but think they will sell a whole bunch. The Civic is very nice but one needs to get a model like the EX or higher to get all the good stuff.
Too bad that Honda hasn't put in a small turbo in the HR-V as it's just screaming for some more power from what I've read. The interior is very nice especially in the EX and EX-L versions but again, the lack of knobs on the infotainment system is plain dumb!!! Put the 1.5 turbo in it and give me my beloved knobs on the stereo and I'll buy one as my next vehicle, but they also need to upgrade the alloys.

The Sandman

oldfarmer50

jmonroe said:

oldfarmer50 said:

dino001 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

OTOH, I have to disagree on the PT Cruiser. I get letters constantly from dealers telling me my wife's car is in "high demand" and offering "top dollar" if I trade.

And you believe them? I would really like to see that "top dollar". BTW, do they acknowledge in the letter that it is indeed a PT Cruiser, or is that a generic letter that doesn't even mention the actual vehicle?

Of course not, this old boy didn't just fall off the turnip truck. I'm so cynical that when my wife says "good morning" I look out the window first before responding. Most of the offers are from the original dealer so they get the car right.

Top dollar? LOL I'd like to see what that is too. Edmunds says $3100 PP and $4100 dealer with 40 k miles and average condition. Area dealers are asking $6k for higher milage so maybe they know something I don't.

My favorite solicitation is from the third party warranty companies that warn me that my factory warranty on my 9 year old car is "about to expire".

I can't exactly say my favorite solicitation is from third party warranty companies but I did get a guy that was pretty upbeat when he called last year for Mrs. j's 21012 Subie. When I told him I didn't have that car anymore and bought a new one, therefore, I was covered by the factory warranty so I didn't need any warranty. Without any hesitation he said, "hey, I can get you extended coverage for your new car for less than a dealer charges". When I told him I didn't even tell him what car I now have he said, "doesn't matter we cover all cars at almost any age or mileage". I'll bet they do too, just don't want to hear the price.

The mailings I seem to get at least once a month for the Subie only shows the different extended month periods without a price but tells me to hurry before I am out of warranty and will have expensive repairs when that happens.

I'm almost tempted to tell them I'm @jmonroe not @driver100.

i almost always baby my "good" car so much that I run out of warranty on time rather than milage. So when Ford recently sent me a warranty offer which allowed to extend time only, I was intrigued. If I understand the chart correctly there is one option where I can get 84 month while keeping the milage at 36.

Depending on the cost that might be a good option for me