Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

graphicguy

Michaell said:

graphicguy said:

bwia said:

Those of you who drive your expensive cars probably do not experience the driving nightwares of everyday workers. In Boston, for example it took me an hour-and-a-half to drive 17 miles, that's why I retired early. My daughter who lives in MV-DC area starts her daily commute at 5:00 AM. She is hoping for the day when autonomous driving cars become commonplace so she can relax and read the newspaper on her way to work. It's ok to dream but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Ah yes......I remember those days of driving through the "Big Dig". I was telecommuting back in the early-mid '90s, while working for a large tech company in Acton. I would fly in Monday night, and fly home (to Cincinnati) Thursday evening or early a.m. Friday. Did that for 3 years. Not sure I would even attempt to do that today.

I was doing a lot of travel to Boston during that project, as well. Got to be pretty good at figuring out what lane to be in as I transitioned from the tunnel to the central artery to the Mass Pike.

I almost didn't recognize it when it was complete.

I did, too! Every once in a while someone would ask me to take me to, or drop them off at Logan. I became fairly adept at knowing the flow of traffic getting through the big dig and started driving like a true Bostonian.

I remember my bosses boss threatening to transfer me to Boston. When I would tell him what it would cost to put me into a house like I had in Cincinnati, he would back off (about 2.5x the cost in Boston to get into something comparable to what I had in Cincinnati.

qbrozen

driver100 said:

Applying the brakes: The ES 350 and most other modern vehicles are equipped with power-assisted brakes, which operate by drawing vacuum power from the engine. But when an engine opens to full throttle, the vacuum drops, and after one or two pumps of the brake pedal the power assist feature disappears.

As a result, a driver would have to apply enormous pressure to the brake pedal to stop the car, and if the throttle was wide open might not be able to stop it at all, safety experts say.

http://www.motortrend.com/news/unintended-acceleration-test/

Our key finding: EVEN WITH THE GAS PEDAL FLOORED, ALL CARS DID STOP.

Our conclusion? Even if a vehicle’s electronic throttle system somehow triggered an unintentional acceleration incident, modern braking systems are good enough to over-power the engine and bring the vehicle safely to a halt within a reasonable distance.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/how-to-deal-with-unintended-acceleration

With the Camry’s throttle pinned while going 70 mph, the brakes easily overcame all 268 horsepower straining against them and stopped the car in 190 feet—that’s a foot shorter than the performance of a Ford Taurus without any gas-pedal problems and just 16 feet longer than with the Camry’s throttle closed. From 100 mph, the stopping-distance differential was 88 feet—noticeable to be sure, but the car still slowed enthusiastically enough to impart a feeling of confidence. We also tried one go-for-broke run at 120 mph, and, even then, the car quickly decelerated to about 10 mph before the brakes got excessively hot and the car refused to decelerate any further. So even in the most extreme case, it should be possible to get a car’s speed down to a point where a resulting accident should be a low-speed and relatively minor event.

houdini1

driver100 said:

houdini1 said:

xwesx said:

iluvmysephia1 said:

Anyone seen or heard from our longtime friend stever?

Not a peep. I'm curious where he went!

I think he may have moved to Canada after President Trump got elected.

Lots of people said they were going to do that....they always do...not too many follow through....and it isn't as easy as it sounds.

I thought Canada was more compassionate. Don't tell me you got a wall up there.

houdini1

Not sure what they mean by this, but Volvo/uber just announced that they had disabled the "safety system" in the Volvo before the crash that killed the cyclist.

roadburner

qbrozen said:

driver100 said:

Applying the brakes: The ES 350 and most other modern vehicles are equipped with power-assisted brakes, which operate by drawing vacuum power from the engine. But when an engine opens to full throttle, the vacuum drops, and after one or two pumps of the brake pedal the power assist feature disappears.

As a result, a driver would have to apply enormous pressure to the brake pedal to stop the car, and if the throttle was wide open might not be able to stop it at all, safety experts say.

http://www.motortrend.com/news/unintended-acceleration-test/

Our key finding: EVEN WITH THE GAS PEDAL FLOORED, ALL CARS DID STOP.

Our conclusion? Even if a vehicle’s electronic throttle system somehow triggered an unintentional acceleration incident, modern braking systems are good enough to over-power the engine and bring the vehicle safely to a halt within a reasonable distance.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/how-to-deal-with-unintended-acceleration

With the Camry’s throttle pinned while going 70 mph, the brakes easily overcame all 268 horsepower straining against them and stopped the car in 190 feet—that’s a foot shorter than the performance of a Ford Taurus without any gas-pedal problems and just 16 feet longer than with the Camry’s throttle closed. From 100 mph, the stopping-distance differential was 88 feet—noticeable to be sure, but the car still slowed enthusiastically enough to impart a feeling of confidence. We also tried one go-for-broke run at 120 mph, and, even then, the car quickly decelerated to about 10 mph before the brakes got excessively hot and the car refused to decelerate any further. So even in the most extreme case, it should be possible to get a car’s speed down to a point where a resulting accident should be a low-speed and relatively minor event.

Precisely. Again, our "expert" Lexus driver was anything but...

stickguy

houdini1 said:

Not sure what they mean by this, but Volvo/uber just announced that they had disabled the "safety system" in the Volvo before the crash that killed the cyclist.

My guess, the Volvo auto safety features would conflict with the add on ones, so they needed to let the self driving ones have control. Pretty much running the same system I guess, just different “decision maker”, with some extra uthority.

driver100

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/how-to-deal-with-unintended-acceleration

With the Camry’s throttle pinned while going 70 mph, the brakes easily overcame all 268 horsepower straining against them and stopped the car in 190 feet—that’s a foot shorter than the performance of a Ford Taurus without any gas-pedal problems and just 16 feet longer than with the Camry’s throttle closed. From 100 mph, the stopping-distance differential was 88 feet—noticeable to be sure, but the car still slowed enthusiastically enough to impart a feeling of confidence. We also tried one go-for-broke run at 120 mph, and, even then, the car quickly decelerated to about 10 mph before the brakes got excessively hot and the car refused to decelerate any further. So even in the most extreme case, it should be possible to get a car’s speed down to a point where a resulting accident should be a low-speed and relatively minor event.



Getting different info regarding braking in a runaway Lexus. If you pump the brakes you will lose your brakes. If you stomp on the brakes I have read you need almost 300 pounds of pressure. Consumers Reports says stomp on the brakes and put the car in neutral.

Not saying your article is incorrect....just saying it may not be correct.

fintail

Wasn't there a bunch of Prius unintended acceleration claims around the time of the tragic Lexus incident? I think those claims were debunked as user error, which might not be a surprise from what I see of Seattle-area Prius drivers.

oldfarmer50

Help me interpret this CarFax. It says one owner but there are several pre-delivery inspections listed. What gives?

https://www.carfax.com/VehicleHistory/p/Report.cfx?partner=LAC_0&vin=1N4AL3AP7FN311760

jmonroe

driver100 said:

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/how-to-deal-with-unintended-acceleration

With the Camry’s throttle pinned while going 70 mph, the brakes easily overcame all 268 horsepower straining against them and stopped the car in 190 feet—that’s a foot shorter than the performance of a Ford Taurus without any gas-pedal problems and just 16 feet longer than with the Camry’s throttle closed. From 100 mph, the stopping-distance differential was 88 feet—noticeable to be sure, but the car still slowed enthusiastically enough to impart a feeling of confidence. We also tried one go-for-broke run at 120 mph, and, even then, the car quickly decelerated to about 10 mph before the brakes got excessively hot and the car refused to decelerate any further. So even in the most extreme case, it should be possible to get a car’s speed down to a point where a resulting accident should be a low-speed and relatively minor event

.

Getting different info regarding braking in a runaway Lexus. If you pump the brakes you will lose your brakes. If you stomp on the brakes I have read you need almost 300 pounds of pressure. Consumers Reports says stomp on the brakes and put the car in neutral.

Not saying your article is incorrect....just saying it may not be correct.



HUH !! .

jmonroe

fintail

Classy car, fantastic, designed by the best people, I know the best people, believe me. Just incredible, made for real winners, bigly in every way. Just a yuuuge beautiful stable genius of a vehicle, believe me.

tbirdmarco said:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FctbtTNJZKs

imidazol97

The brakes on most cars are assisted with air pressure applying force against a large diaphragm inside a tank on the firewall that helps push the brake pedal. There is a vacuum on the other side of the diaphragm. The vacuum is sealed on the one side when the brake pedal is pushed down. If the brake pedal rises, the vacuum is shared with the side that had atmospheric air bled in to cause brake assist.

But the engine vacuum is greatly reduced when the throttle is wide open, so the vacuum on that side is not replenshed to a high vacuum when the brake pedal is released. Pushing down again on the pedal, finds less vacuum to assist.

Repeat two times and you're probably down to no noticeable assist. So in an emergency, hit brakes hard and hold and vacuum will continue to assist your pressure on the brake pedal.

Try this in your own car at a normal speed by strongly accelerating then push brake pedal and let up while keep accelerator fully down. Then push brake pedal again. Repeat about 3 times and you're out of vacuum from the engine until the throttle valve letting air into the engine intake is closed which increases the vacuum in the intake manifold. It's that manifold vacuum that's shared with the brake booster tank.

"Around 1918, a young inventor took the Pascal idea and applied it to brakes. His name was Malcolm Lougheed (later he changed the spelling of his name to Lockheed). In 1921 the Model A Duesenberg became the first car to have hydraulic brakes."

http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/129

houdini1

stickguy said:

houdini1 said:

Not sure what they mean by this, but Volvo/uber just announced that they had disabled the "safety system" in the Volvo before the crash that killed the cyclist.

My guess, the Volvo auto safety features would conflict with the add on ones, so they needed to let the self driving ones have control. Pretty much running the same system I guess, just different “decision maker”, with some extra uthority.

I found the article on line and you are correct. The Volvo system was disengaged and the uber system was engaged.

driver100

jmonroe said:

driver100 said:

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/how-to-deal-with-unintended-acceleration

With the Camry’s throttle pinned while going 70 mph, the brakes easily overcame all 268 horsepower straining against them and stopped the car in 190 feet—that’s a foot shorter than the performance of a Ford Taurus without any gas-pedal problems and just 16 feet longer than with the Camry’s throttle closed. From 100 mph, the stopping-distance differential was 88 feet—noticeable to be sure, but the car still slowed enthusiastically enough to impart a feeling of confidence. We also tried one go-for-broke run at 120 mph, and, even then, the car quickly decelerated to about 10 mph before the brakes got excessively hot and the car refused to decelerate any further. So even in the most extreme case, it should be possible to get a car’s speed down to a point where a resulting accident should be a low-speed and relatively minor event

.

Getting different info regarding braking in a runaway Lexus. If you pump the brakes you will lose your brakes. If you stomp on the brakes I have read you need almost 300 pounds of pressure. Consumers Reports says stomp on the brakes and put the car in neutral.

Not saying your article is incorrect....just saying it may not be correct.



HUH !! .

jmonroe

It is complicated for some

venture

driver100 said:

venture said:

imidazol97 said:

abacomike said:

This was not a positive experience - there was no collision imminent.  This is an example of a safety feature improperly activating.  If there was a car tailing me, it would have collided with my rear end.

My Malibu preps for hard braking as it gives an audible and visual warning in the heads up display. I occasionally get that at 25 mph on a curve to the left on a residential street when a car is parked ahead of me but I'm curving left. If I had auto-braking, it probably would apply the brakes to stop.

I also get a warning occasionally on I75 as I go on an overpass. The road curves up slightly and if I'm in the middle lane, I'll get the lights and beeping. Thank God it doesn't slam on the brakes in the middle of what's usually heavy truck traffic on I75.

I had thought I wanted auto braking at speed as well as low speed, which is available on 16 and later Malibus. But maybe I don't.

I do know that I have my danger detector on high sensitivity for earliest warning. I assume that a full braking system doesn't not have that adjustment. Or does yours have an adjustment for sensitivity.

My Legacy will occasionally warn about an obstruction ahead and once actually started applying the brakes. The offending vehicle moved out of the way and the brakes were released before the hard stop. I have to say that I have not had any false positives. It is not adjustable as far as I know.

The reverse braking has to be turned off when backing down my driveway. The angle between my driveway and the road is enough to make it slam on the brakes.

It sounds like it is more trouble than it is worth. I would get pretty frustrated having to put up with that.....car stopping because of a curved driveway it can't read.

I was talking about the vertical angle, not a curved driveway. It only takes a second - probably not as long as it takes to turn off stop/start.

roadburner

jmonroe said:

HUH !! .

jmonroe

It's really not that difficult to understand(or so I thought); with respect to virtually any modern car:
1. If the car is stopped with the brakes fully applied and you floor the accelerator the car will not move.
2. If the car is moving at virtually any speed if you floor the accelerator and simultaneously fully apply the brakes the car will stop.

stickguy

oldfarmer50 said:

Help me interpret this CarFax. It says one owner but there are several pre-delivery inspections listed. What gives?

https://www.carfax.com/VehicleHistory/p/Report.cfx?partner=LAC_0&vin=1N4AL3AP7FN311760

I think that just means they inspected condition before giving back from being serviced. Looks like normal clean carfax to me. And a used Altima, so no interest from me!

abacomike

fintail said:

Classy car, fantastic, designed by the best people, I know the best people, believe me. Just incredible, made for real winners, bigly in every way. Just a yuuuge beautiful stable genius of a vehicle, believe me.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FctbtTNJZKs

Back in the 80’s, IIRC, there were two car manufacturers that built limos - Lincoln and Cadillac.  Of course, there were companies that took the limo and stretched it, but I am talking about base limos.

The Cadillac limo was the best handling while the Lincoln was the best in terms of ride comfort.  The Lincoln had a taller stance than the Cadillac.

I owned a 1986 Cadillac Sedan DeVille.  I also owned a 1988 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series. Both were true tanks by today’s standards.  I found the Lincoln to be squishy in terms of ride and handling while the Cadillac had a stiffer ride and responded more adequately to driver input.  The Lincoln was comfortable in the driver’s seat due to a higher stance seating array.  Both cars were cheap looking on the inside and used lots of plastics a faux wood.  

Lincoln was was never able to conquer the Cadillac image of luxury and performance.  But both vehicles took their places in history as the creme de la creme of American automobiles.

28firefighter

Flying to Philly on Thursday this week for a long weekend. Any tips for keeping a 14 month occupied for 6 hours? Open to options that include sedation of the parents. We did get him his own seat and will bring his car seat on, since holding him is a non-starter.

qbrozen

driver100 said:

Getting different info regarding braking in a runaway Lexus. If you pump the brakes you will lose your brakes. If you stomp on the brakes I have read you need almost 300 pounds of pressure. Consumers Reports says stomp on the brakes and put the car in neutral.

Not saying your article is incorrect....just saying it may not be correct.

Keep in mind, those are not just editorials or people's guesses. Those are real tests they performed.

As far as the ES350 specifically, I'd have a very hard time believing it is significantly different from a mechanically identical Camry.

tbirdmarco

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PNhjs05zm9E

fintail

I suspect they handle worse when stretched and loaded down with two tons of gold and marble ostentation

I remember in 1989 when I was 12, a friend of mine's dad bought a final run angular style Town Car. They kept it for at least 20 years, he had some kind of love for that car.

abacomike said:

Back in the 80’s, IIRC, there were two car manufacturers that built limos - Lincoln and Cadillac.  Of course, there were companies that took the limo and stretched it, but I am talking about base limos.

The Cadillac limo was the best handling while the Lincoln was the best in terms of ride comfort.  The Lincoln had a taller stance than the Cadillac.

I owned a 1986 Cadillac Sedan DeVille.  I also owned a 1988 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series. Both were true tanks by today’s standards.  I found the Lincoln to be squishy in terms of ride and handling while the Cadillac had a stiffer ride and responded more adequately to driver input.  The Lincoln was comfortable in the driver’s seat due to a higher stance seating array.  Both cars were cheap looking on the inside and used lots of plastics a faux wood.  

Lincoln was was never able to conquer the Cadillac image of luxury and performance.  But both vehicles took their places in history as the creme de la creme of American automobiles.

jmonroe

roadburner said:

jmonroe said:

HUH !! .

jmonroe

It's really not that difficult to understand(or so I thought); with respect to virtually any modern car:
1. If the car is stopped with the brakes fully applied and you floor the accelerator the car will not move.
2. If the car is moving at virtually any speed if you floor the accelerator and simultaneously fully apply the brakes the car will stop.

I agree with what you said but saying correct and incorrect without further explanation confuses me. Maybe @driver100 knew what he meant but then again he has confused himself in here more than just a few times.

jmonroe

oldfarmer50

stickguy said:

oldfarmer50 said:

Help me interpret this CarFax. It says one owner but there are several pre-delivery inspections listed. What gives?

https://www.carfax.com/VehicleHistory/p/Report.cfx?partner=LAC_0&vin=1N4AL3AP7FN311760

I think that just means they inspected condition before giving back from being serviced. Looks like normal clean carfax to me. And a used Altima, so no interest from me!

Thanks, that's what I thought. CarFax can be ambiguous sometimes.

Mr_Shiftright

qbrozen said:

driver100 said:

Applying the brakes: The ES 350 and most other modern vehicles are equipped with power-assisted brakes, which operate by drawing vacuum power from the engine. But when an engine opens to full throttle, the vacuum drops, and after one or two pumps of the brake pedal the power assist feature disappears.

As a result, a driver would have to apply enormous pressure to the brake pedal to stop the car, and if the throttle was wide open might not be able to stop it at all, safety experts say.

http://www.motortrend.com/news/unintended-acceleration-test/

Our key finding: EVEN WITH THE GAS PEDAL FLOORED, ALL CARS DID STOP.

Our conclusion? Even if a vehicle’s electronic throttle system somehow triggered an unintentional acceleration incident, modern braking systems are good enough to over-power the engine and bring the vehicle safely to a halt within a reasonable distance.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/how-to-deal-with-unintended-acceleration

With the Camry’s throttle pinned while going 70 mph, the brakes easily overcame all 268 horsepower straining against them and stopped the car in 190 feet—that’s a foot shorter than the performance of a Ford Taurus without any gas-pedal problems and just 16 feet longer than with the Camry’s throttle closed. From 100 mph, the stopping-distance differential was 88 feet—noticeable to be sure, but the car still slowed enthusiastically enough to impart a feeling of confidence. We also tried one go-for-broke run at 120 mph, and, even then, the car quickly decelerated to about 10 mph before the brakes got excessively hot and the car refused to decelerate any further. So even in the most extreme case, it should be possible to get a car’s speed down to a point where a resulting accident should be a low-speed and relatively minor event.

RE: (quote) "A driver may push the button repeatedly, not knowing it requires a three-second hold."

That's still driver error. Anyone in command of 1.5 tons of hurtling steel carrying gasoline and people really needs to know what he's doing. I mean, what do you do when your toaster starts smoking? Right. You pull out the plug. You know to do that. Car stalls in traffic? You put on the blinkers. Windshield fogs up? You turn on the defroster.

Car starts accelerating? You press the start button for 3 seconds while mashing the brake pedal.

I don't think that comment MT made about vacuum-assisted braking is quite correct. Even with WOT, all cars have a vacuum reservoir---you should get way more than two pumps.

roadburner

jmonroe said:

roadburner said:

jmonroe said:

HUH !! .

jmonroe

It's really not that difficult to understand(or so I thought); with respect to virtually any modern car:
1. If the car is stopped with the brakes fully applied and you floor the accelerator the car will not move.
2. If the car is moving at virtually any speed if you floor the accelerator and simultaneously fully apply the brakes the car will stop.

I agree with what you said but saying correct and incorrect without further explanation confuses me. Maybe @driver100 knew what he meant but then again he has confused himself in here more than just a few times.

jmonroe

It wasn't really directed at you; I knew exactly what you meant...

driver100

jmonroe said:

roadburner said:

jmonroe said:

HUH !! .

jmonroe

It's really not that difficult to understand(or so I thought); with respect to virtually any modern car:
1. If the car is stopped with the brakes fully applied and you floor the accelerator the car will not move.
2. If the car is moving at virtually any speed if you floor the accelerator and simultaneously fully apply the brakes the car will stop.

I agree with what you said but saying correct and incorrect without further explanation confuses me. Maybe @driver100 knew what he meant but then again he has confused himself in here more than just a few times.

jmonroe

Driver 100 wrote that early this morning......probably should have said "It could be true and may not be, I would like to see definitive "real test" results...I am getting conflicting information".

driver100

Mr_Shiftright said:

qbrozen said:

driver100 said:

Applying the brakes: The ES 350 and most other modern vehicles are equipped with power-assisted brakes, which operate by drawing vacuum power from the engine. But when an engine opens to full throttle, the vacuum drops, and after one or two pumps of the brake pedal the power assist feature disappears.

As a result, a driver would have to apply enormous pressure to the brake pedal to stop the car, and if the throttle was wide open might not be able to stop it at all, safety experts say.

http://www.motortrend.com/news/unintended-acceleration-test/

Our key finding: EVEN WITH THE GAS PEDAL FLOORED, ALL CARS DID STOP.

Our conclusion? Even if a vehicle’s electronic throttle system somehow triggered an unintentional acceleration incident, modern braking systems are good enough to over-power the engine and bring the vehicle safely to a halt within a reasonable distance.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/how-to-deal-with-unintended-acceleration

With the Camry’s throttle pinned while going 70 mph, the brakes easily overcame all 268 horsepower straining against them and stopped the car in 190 feet—that’s a foot shorter than the performance of a Ford Taurus without any gas-pedal problems and just 16 feet longer than with the Camry’s throttle closed. From 100 mph, the stopping-distance differential was 88 feet—noticeable to be sure, but the car still slowed enthusiastically enough to impart a feeling of confidence. We also tried one go-for-broke run at 120 mph, and, even then, the car quickly decelerated to about 10 mph before the brakes got excessively hot and the car refused to decelerate any further. So even in the most extreme case, it should be possible to get a car’s speed down to a point where a resulting accident should be a low-speed and relatively minor event.

RE: (quote) "A driver may push the button repeatedly, not knowing it requires a three-second hold."

That's still driver error. Anyone in command of 1.5 tons of hurtling steel carrying gasoline and people really needs to know what he's doing. I mean, what do you do when your toaster starts smoking? Right. You pull out the plug. You know to do that. Car stalls in traffic? You put on the blinkers. Windshield fogs up? You turn on the defroster.

Car starts accelerating? You press the start button for 3 seconds while mashing the brake pedal.

I don't think that comment MT made about vacuum-assisted braking is quite correct. Even with WOT, all cars have a vacuum reservoir---you should get way more than two pumps.

You can't know every aspect of how a car works....especially something as rare as trying to turn off the engine using a push button starter. It is probably hidden in the manual somewhere, but even if you read it cover to cover you won't remember what to do when you are in a panic situation. I bet less than 5% of the drivers on the roads would know you have to press the button for 3 seconds to turn off the engine.

A toaster is different..........everyone knows you can pull the plug to stop the current.

btw....just read, sometimes it requires 3 separate pushes of the button, not 3 seconds.

driver100

All the articles I have read so far say to put the car into neutral, then stomp on the brakes.

This article says new Jettas will stop if the car is accelerating and you hit the brakes......but this is a new device.

To prevent unintended acceleration, some cars, such as the Volkswagen Jetta, are now being built with "smart throttle" technology, which enables the brake to override the accelerator.

Champion said, "Full-throttle acceleration. Foot on the brake pedal."

The car stopped.

"Oh, wow," Koeppen said.

Champion added, "And that's with my foot still firmly on the accelerator."

I am not saying the car won't stop using the brakes only....I would like to see where it was done....and what do you do if you do stop it and the engine is racing away...can it take off again or will it stay stopped?

Mr_Shiftright

I completely understand that it is not intuitive, but nonetheless---- You remember when John Denver crashed in that place he was test-flying? They determined that he did not know the position of the fuel reserve switch, and indeed, it was in an awkward place.

But they still ruled his death "due to pilot error".

And on a boat, you run the blower after re-fueling, right? So if it's your new boat and nobody ever told you where that switch was, and if the boat goes Ka-Boom, that's also "pilot error".

So why is "piloting" a car any different?

iluvmysephia1

I wondered when the collective group light bulb would come on and we would discuss again at length the Toyota-Lexus unintended acceleration problem again in here. I don't know if that means we've come full circle, or not.

Mr_Shiftright

Good point---let's move on, maybe to something more generalized like we were before, about nanny gadgets and how a car might interfere at the wrong time....

I was trying to focus on driver safety, not Lexus. Perhaps we should all know more about how to disengage some of these features if we don't like what they are doing at a particular instance.

stickguy

I’m sceptical though. All that tech, like the Jetta has, has one thing in common. Computer controlled. The same ECU that went potentially haywire causing the runaway is supposed to trigger the break override. And these days, controls he start button and transmission selector.

Simply put, little mechanical going on. Neutral is not a lever. It’s a computer deciding to change to that gear. Same with stop/start button. You aren’t turning a key off breaking a circuit.

Mr_Shiftright

Well people can't have it both ways--they want (or do they really?) the car to do the driving but they don't want the car to ever do anything wrong....anything wrong.....anything wrong....

jmonroe

driver100 said:

jmonroe said:

roadburner said:

jmonroe said:

HUH !! .

jmonroe

It's really not that difficult to understand(or so I thought); with respect to virtually any modern car:
1. If the car is stopped with the brakes fully applied and you floor the accelerator the car will not move.
2. If the car is moving at virtually any speed if you floor the accelerator and simultaneously fully apply the brakes the car will stop.

I agree with what you said but saying correct and incorrect without further explanation confuses me. Maybe @driver100 knew what he meant but then again he has confused himself in here more than just a few times.

jmonroe

Driver 100 wrote that early this morning......probably should have said "It could be true and may not be, I would like to see definitive "real test" results...I am getting conflicting information".

OH, so now we have to wait for you to be fully awake? Your post that prompted my reply was at 10:07 AM. When do you wake up?

From now on maybe you should say,"until mid-afternoon I may be FOS", or something like that, so we'll know.

jmonroe

coldinohio

has anyone bought a car with a 'branded" title?

store in atlanta has a lot of high end cars that were manufacturer buybacks it appears

iqautos

stickguy

Mr_Shiftright said:

Well people can't have it both ways--they want (or do they really?) the car to do the driving but they don't want the car to ever do anything wrong....anything wrong.....anything wrong....

Hey, a westworld reference! Nice

andres3

driver100 said:

About that runaway lexus....not as easy to stop as it sounds;

Cutting off the engine: the ES 350. has a push-button start system, activated by the combination of a wireless electronic fob carried by the driver and a button on the dashboard.

But once the vehicle is moving, the engine will not shut off unless the button is held down for a full three seconds -- a period of time in which Saylor's car would have traveled 528 feet. A driver may push the button repeatedly, not knowing it requires a three-second hold.

"When you are dealing with an emergency, you can't wait three seconds for the car to respond at 120 miles an hour," said Clarence Ditlow, executive director of the nonprofit Center for Auto Safety.

The ES 350 Saylor was driving that day was a loaner provided to him by Bob Baker Lexus when he took his family's Lexus in for servicing. It's unclear whether Saylor's own car had the same feature or whether he was aware of the shutdown procedure. Bob Baker Lexus did not return calls.

Now i know, but I didn't know you had to press the button for 3 seconds.

Applying the brakes: The ES 350 and most other modern vehicles are equipped with power-assisted brakes, which operate by drawing vacuum power from the engine. But when an engine opens to full throttle, the vacuum drops, and after one or two pumps of the brake pedal the power assist feature disappears.

As a result, a driver would have to apply enormous pressure to the brake pedal to stop the car, and if the throttle was wide open might not be able to stop it at all, safety experts say.

Putting the car in neutral The other common defense tactic advised by experts is to simply shift a runaway vehicle into neutral. But the ES 350 is equipped with an automatic transmission that can mimic manual shifting, and its shift lever on the console has a series of gates and detents that allow a driver to select any of at least four forward gears.

The arrangement of those gear selections could make it difficult to shift from a forward gear directly into neutral in a panic situation, Toyota spokesman Lyons acknowledged.

"I think it's possible to get the shifter confused, but I can't be sure that's what happened" in San Diego, Lyons said. "You'd be surprised how many people around here [Toyota] don't know what the neutral position is for."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion: It is easy for us to say what we would do, but, it is harder to react if a car takes off and is going 120 mph than it would seem.

1) Anyone familiar with a hard-power shutdown on a laptop or desktop computer would know the 3-second rule of pushing the power button to turn things off. Granted, this might only be 50% of the population. If y

2) 3 seconds at 120 MPH might be 528 feet, but that Lexus traveled much more than 528 feet after having time to dial 911. I think it would take me 3 seconds just to dial 911, maybe more.

3) Read the owner's manual? I bet the rental/loaner fine print says the driver is responsible to know how to operate the vehicle.

4) If you can't get the car into neutral in an emergency situation, hand-in your license and hang up your driving shoes, put in for early retirement, and spare us all!

Mr_Shiftright

There is a theory that there's an inverse proportion between driver aids and driver competency.

Not saying I agree with that, but it is arguable at least.

I mean, no one has ever proven that ABS saved any lives, have they? I mean "proven" it?

stickguy

cars are so complicated now, and different makes work uniquely, that it isn’t surprising that many people get confused about the tech. Especially with a car they are not familiar with. At least in the past, the vast majority basically worked the same. Key, blinkers, gear selector, etc.

Now with some euro cars, lucky can turn on the radio or put it into reverse!

qbrozen

coldinohio said:

has anyone bought a car with a 'branded" title? store in atlanta has a lot of high end cars that were manufacturer buybacks it appears iqautos

I would never want a manu buyback. That means lemon. Why would it magically be a good car with the 2nd owner? I think I'd rather have a salvage branded car then a manu buyback.

qbrozen

Just took a look at that site. The one unit I pulled up as an example is concerning. It is priced pretty damned close to what I would pay for a non-branded example. I am also not sure about their claim that it has remaining factory warranty. I was under the impression that a lemon buyback voids the warranty.
http://www.iqautos.com/2015-BMW-4SeriesGranCoupe/Used-Hatchback/Atlanta-GA/10367073/Details.aspx

andres3

Mr_Shiftright said:

There is a theory that there's an inverse proportion between driver aids and driver competency.

Not saying I agree with that, but it is arguable at least.

I mean, no one has ever proven that ABS saved any lives, have they? I mean "proven" it?

I believe when ABS was not common Insurance companies would give discounts for it. That's about as much proof as I have.

andres3

driver100 said:

All the articles I have read so far say to put the car into neutral, then stomp on the brakes.

This article says new Jettas will stop if the car is accelerating and you hit the brakes......but this is a new device.

To prevent unintended acceleration, some cars, such as the Volkswagen Jetta, are now being built with "smart throttle" technology, which enables the brake to override the accelerator.

Champion said, "Full-throttle acceleration. Foot on the brake pedal."

The car stopped.

"Oh, wow," Koeppen said.

Champion added, "And that's with my foot still firmly on the accelerator."

I am not saying the car won't stop using the brakes only....I would like to see where it was done....and what do you do if you do stop it and the engine is racing away...can it take off again or will it stay stopped?

As long as the brakes are applied, the accelerator will never overpower them (unless you let go). If you put it in neutral, the car won't take off.

imidazol97

For an anecdotal test of how many brake applications remain from the reserve vacuum in your car's brake booster when the engine is not supplying any refresh because its own vacuum is low. Stop your car. Turn off the engine. Press the brakes once. Let up. Press the brake pedal again hard. Let up. Repeat until you can tell the pedal does not go down the same as it did when you started this test.

coldinohio

qbrozen said:

Just took a look at that site. The one unit I pulled up as an example is concerning. It is priced pretty damned close to what I would pay for a non-branded example. I am also not sure about their claim that it has remaining factory warranty. I was under the impression that a lemon buyback voids the warranty.
http://www.iqautos.com/2015-BMW-4SeriesGranCoupe/Used-Hatchback/Atlanta-GA/10367073/Details.aspx

that was the car I saw ...

I could not figure out how they could offer factory warranty...

saw a maserati with that 'dealer' plate so took a look....

very interesting...

thanks

driver100

jmonroe said:

driver100 said:

jmonroe said:

roadburner said:

jmonroe said:

HUH !! .

jmonroe

It's really not that difficult to understand(or so I thought); with respect to virtually any modern car:
1. If the car is stopped with the brakes fully applied and you floor the accelerator the car will not move.
2. If the car is moving at virtually any speed if you floor the accelerator and simultaneously fully apply the brakes the car will stop.

I agree with what you said but saying correct and incorrect without further explanation confuses me. Maybe @driver100 knew what he meant but then again he has confused himself in here more than just a few times.

jmonroe

Driver 100 wrote that early this morning......probably should have said "It could be true and may not be, I would like to see definitive "real test" results...I am getting conflicting information".

OH, so now we have to wait for you to be fully awake? Your post that prompted my reply was at 10:07 AM. When do you wake up?

From now on maybe you should say,"until mid-afternoon I may be FOS", or something like that, so we'll know.

jmonroe

I had a full morning...believe it or not I have a life besides keeping my fans up to date on C&C......answered many emails...had to eat at 10:15 a.m to go to pickleball at 10:30. Was a little rushed.....thought it looked confusing but decided not to change it.

JM, I shouldn't bother explaining but I know you would like to know.

driver100

I think knowing how to stop your car if it is accelerating out of control is important to know. Wouldn't the guy in the runaway Lexus have stomped on the brake pedal.....he was a traffic cop with a lot of knowledge and experience? Wouldn't stomping on the brake be the first thing someone would try? I think I would try the brake first, then shift to neutral, then try turning the car off.....though I have never heard about the 3 seconds or 3X rule - I may push the button in thinking that would do something.

Also, your brain doesn't work that well when you are in panic mode with 3 screaming people in the car and you are trying to steer.

Just show me the evidence that stomping on the brake will definitely stop the car. I also wonder, as stick alluded to, will the car always go into neutral when the engine is revving away? The articles seem to say it may squeel like a frightened pig, but will the gears always mesh into place?

Disclaimer: Just asking?

jmonroe

driver100 said:

jmonroe said:

driver100 said:

jmonroe said:

roadburner said:

jmonroe said:

HUH !! .

jmonroe

It's really not that difficult to understand(or so I thought); with respect to virtually any modern car:
1. If the car is stopped with the brakes fully applied and you floor the accelerator the car will not move.
2. If the car is moving at virtually any speed if you floor the accelerator and simultaneously fully apply the brakes the car will stop.

I agree with what you said but saying correct and incorrect without further explanation confuses me. Maybe @driver100 knew what he meant but then again he has confused himself in here more than just a few times.

jmonroe

Driver 100 wrote that early this morning......probably should have said "It could be true and may not be, I would like to see definitive "real test" results...I am getting conflicting information".

OH, so now we have to wait for you to be fully awake? Your post that prompted my reply was at 10:07 AM. When do you wake up?

From now on maybe you should say,"until mid-afternoon I may be FOS", or something like that, so we'll know.

jmonroe

I had a full morning...believe it or not I have a life besides keeping my fans up to date on C&C......answered many emails...had to eat at 10:15 a.m to go to pickleball at 10:30. Was a little rushed.....thought it looked confusing but decided not to change it.

JM, I shouldn't bother explaining but I know you would like to know.

Do you really think I'm the only one?

jmonroe

houdini1

andres3 said:

driver100 said:

About that runaway lexus....not as easy to stop as it sounds;

Cutting off the engine: the ES 350. has a push-button start system, activated by the combination of a wireless electronic fob carried by the driver and a button on the dashboard.

But once the vehicle is moving, the engine will not shut off unless the button is held down for a full three seconds -- a period of time in which Saylor's car would have traveled 528 feet. A driver may push the button repeatedly, not knowing it requires a three-second hold.

"When you are dealing with an emergency, you can't wait three seconds for the car to respond at 120 miles an hour," said Clarence Ditlow, executive director of the nonprofit Center for Auto Safety.

The ES 350 Saylor was driving that day was a loaner provided to him by Bob Baker Lexus when he took his family's Lexus in for servicing. It's unclear whether Saylor's own car had the same feature or whether he was aware of the shutdown procedure. Bob Baker Lexus did not return calls.

Now i know, but I didn't know you had to press the button for 3 seconds.

Applying the brakes: The ES 350 and most other modern vehicles are equipped with power-assisted brakes, which operate by drawing vacuum power from the engine. But when an engine opens to full throttle, the vacuum drops, and after one or two pumps of the brake pedal the power assist feature disappears.

As a result, a driver would have to apply enormous pressure to the brake pedal to stop the car, and if the throttle was wide open might not be able to stop it at all, safety experts say.

Putting the car in neutral The other common defense tactic advised by experts is to simply shift a runaway vehicle into neutral. But the ES 350 is equipped with an automatic transmission that can mimic manual shifting, and its shift lever on the console has a series of gates and detents that allow a driver to select any of at least four forward gears.

The arrangement of those gear selections could make it difficult to shift from a forward gear directly into neutral in a panic situation, Toyota spokesman Lyons acknowledged.

"I think it's possible to get the shifter confused, but I can't be sure that's what happened" in San Diego, Lyons said. "You'd be surprised how many people around here [Toyota] don't know what the neutral position is for."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion: It is easy for us to say what we would do, but, it is harder to react if a car takes off and is going 120 mph than it would seem.

1) Anyone familiar with a hard-power shutdown on a laptop or desktop computer would know the 3-second rule of pushing the power button to turn things off. Granted, this might only be 50% of the population. If y

2) 3 seconds at 120 MPH might be 528 feet, but that Lexus traveled much more than 528 feet after having time to dial 911. I think it would take me 3 seconds just to dial 911, maybe more.

3) Read the owner's manual? I bet the rental/loaner fine print says the driver is responsible to know how to operate the vehicle.

4) If you can't get the car into neutral in an emergency situation, hand-in your license and hang up your driving shoes, put in for early retirement, and spare us all!

My money is on the tangled floor mats starting the problem, then the driver's inability to work the shift gate because of panic, not to mention the hold for 3 seconds engine stop.