Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

snakeweasel

driver100 said:

I wonder what would happen if you walked into a dealer and said you don't need a specialist...you will examine the car yourself.....take it on a test drive yourself, and you will do all the documentation work except their paperwork which they have staff on hand to do anyway........and you say, if I do that, I'll even screw my own license plates on, I expect you to knock off those fees from the price?

They would probably charge you a convenience fee for that.

snakeweasel

driver100 said:

it is that easy driver. You do the legwork to come up with a reasonable price you will pay, and shop that payment (and months/miles of course included). The rest of it, is basically irrelevant (how they get there). Residual is fixed anyway by the leasing company (captive finance). you might not know how they made the sausage, but you really don't care since you are giving it back at the end anyway!

I think leasing is slightly easier stick....mainly because there is less room to negotiate....certain fees like interest costs are already built in (whereas when buying you can use your own lender, or pay cash etc), but, it sounds like almost the same amount of work.....fighting the dealer for the best deal possible, and being on guard to protect you from their schemes.

In reality buying a car isn't rocket surgery. If you did your research you can easily find a reasonable price for the car, a price you want to pay, figure out tax title and such and offer it. If they accept you have a car if they give a counter offer then you can either negotiate or walk.

People on both sides make it difficult. 

dino001

snakeweasel said:

Most dealerships are connected to the DMV via the internet and the paperwork is all done electronically. The car will be titled, registered and the DMV will have all the records of it before you get up out of your seat. All the costs associated with just this runs from $20 on up depending on volume but wouldn't come anywhere near what dealers charge. 

Anyway I believe that the dealership should build that into their price.

Of course they should, but they are not the only one saying the "price" is X, when it's really X+Y+Z+C+D. Tourist industries are notorious for doing that ("resort fee", "fuel surcharge", one-way based on round trip, car rental airport surcharges), also telecoms are still raging in cramming fees, advertising only part of the price as price. However, car retailers are in their own league when it comes to price deception.

dino001

snakeweasel said:

People on both sides make it difficult. 

That is certainly true. I would argue that the "originator" are the car retailers. They created the "bazaar" environment and customers adapted the best they could. Some by doing solid research, others by arguing, or developing the strangest expectations.

jmonroe1

driver100 said:

I wonder what would happen if you walked into a dealer and said you don't need a specialist...you will examine the car yourself.....take it on a test drive yourself, and you will do all the documentation work except their paperwork which they have staff on hand to do anyway........and you say, if I do that, I'll even screw my own license plates on, I expect you to knock off those fees from the price?

Huh, untill now you had us believing that you didn't know how to use tools and would call "the guy" to do that sort of stuff.

jmonroe

abacomike

I don’t know about your gas pricing in your areas, but I just filled up at Costco with PUG and I paid $2.95 a gallon - 22 cents more than it was yesterday.  That’s some jump.  Last week I paid $2.59 a gallon for PUG at Costco.  Someone is making big bucks on these price increases, that’s for sure! 

Still about 26+ cents per gallon lower than the gas stations in the area

stickguy

Going up quick in jersey too.

stickguy

So, we are having a big rain day today so I felt guilty procrastinating, and went over to Wally World last night to get the wife new wipers (since even amazon can’t deliver that quick). Ended up with Michelin stealth XT (I think that’s the model). Actually an all weather blade, “hybrid” design. Figured would give them a shot, mostly because it was the only premium brand they had in the 26” size.

Got home, popped them on (real easy) and cleaned the windshield good. I tried them, and seemed smooth and silent. Vast improvement over the old noisy chatter.

Wife drove to work in the rain, and texted that she loved! The new wipers. Guess the old ones were really annoying her. So, I get brownie points (plus I gassed it up for her). Told her she’s spoiled.

carnaught

My experience is that the Costco price does not include dealer fees. It is up to the buyer to negotiate those extras just like mop ‘n glow and others.

venture

According to PA law:

“…a licensed dealer who has a contract with the Department of Transportation…may charge the purchaser of a vehicle a licensing cost…to include any of the following:

(1) The actual cost incurred by the dealer for fees associated with titling and registering the vehicle, including messenger fees, notary fees and electronic transaction fees.
(2) A documentary preparation charge for:
(i) Preparation and completion of documents required to register and license the vehicle under 75 Pa.C.S. (relating to vehicles).
(ii) Collection and submission of taxes payable by the purchaser.
(iii) Preparation of any other information associated with titling and registration of a vehicle.

There is also a maximum that can be charged. It was $141 in 2018 so it is probably a few dollars more this year.
Note that the law says a dealer MAY charge the purchaser. It does not say they MUST charge the purchaser.

snakeweasel

dino001 said:

People on both sides make it difficult. 

That is certainly true. I would argue that the "originator" are the car retailers. They created the "bazaar" environment and customers adapted the best they could. Some by doing solid research, others by arguing, or developing the strangest expectations.

You want strange expectations? Here you go.

https://youtu.be/VKSZUhiMcB4

snakeweasel

abacomike said:

I don’t know about your gas pricing in your areas, but I just filled up at Costco with PUG and I paid $2.95 a gallon - 22 cents more than it was yesterday.  That’s some jump.  Last week I paid $2.59 a gallon for PUG at Costco.  Someone is making big bucks on these price increases, that’s for sure! 

Still about 26+ cents per gallon lower than the gas stations in the area

I filled up a few days ago with RUG at around $2.50 or so a gallon. Now its $2.90.

Glad the weather is improving as the bike goes 3 times as far on a gallon of gas.

venture

abacomike said:

I don’t know about your gas pricing in your areas, but I just filled up at Costco with PUG and I paid $2.95 a gallon - 22 cents more than it was yesterday.  That’s some jump.  Last week I paid $2.59 a gallon for PUG at Costco.  Someone is making big bucks on these price increases, that’s for sure! 

Still about 26+ cents per gallon lower than the gas stations in the area

Same here in PA. My wife commented on it last evening when we were out.

stickguy

That was weird.

ab348

snakeweasel said:

I filled up a few days ago with RUG at around $2.50 or so a gallon. Now its $2.90.

Glad the weather is improving as the bike goes 3 times as far on a gallon of gas.

I filled up yesterday at Shell, V-Power premium. $4.80 a US gallon, in our worthless Canadian dollars.

ruking1

stickguy said:

So, we are having a big rain day today so I felt guilty procrastinating, and went over to Wally World last night to get the wife new wipers (since even amazon can’t deliver that quick). Ended up with Michelin stealth XT (I think that’s the model). Actually an all weather blade, “hybrid” design. Figured would give them a shot, mostly because it was the only premium brand they had in the 26” size.

Got home, popped them on (real easy) and cleaned the windshield good. I tried them, and seemed smooth and silent. Vast improvement over the old noisy chatter.

Wife drove to work in the rain, and texted that she loved! The new wipers. Guess the old ones were really annoying her. So, I get brownie points (plus I gassed it up for her). Told her she’s spoiled.

Glad to be a resource ! Not to create work, but to put the Rain X or similar product on the windshield ( can do all glass) literally makes rain drops run off the windshield. Wipers barely need to be used.

driver100

jmonroe1 said:

driver100 said:

I wonder what would happen if you walked into a dealer and said you don't need a specialist...you will examine the car yourself.....take it on a test drive yourself, and you will do all the documentation work except their paperwork which they have staff on hand to do anyway........and you say, if I do that, I'll even screw my own license plates on, I expect you to knock off those fees from the price?

Huh, untill now you had us believing that you didn't know how to use tools and would call "the guy" to do that sort of stuff.

jmonroe

It's just an idle threat!

graphicguy

snakeweasel said:

dino001 said:

People on both sides make it difficult. 

That is certainly true. I would argue that the "originator" are the car retailers. They created the "bazaar" environment and customers adapted the best they could. Some by doing solid research, others by arguing, or developing the strangest expectations.

You want strange expectations? Here you go.

https://youtu.be/VKSZUhiMcB4


Not exactly sure what that was all about. Guy offered a promissory note for a car the dealership didn’t want to sell to him. What’s his beef? Guy in the video demanded that the dealership sell him a car. They declined.

Didn’t it seem like the person who video’d this was trying to over dramatize a car dealer transaction that they didn’t want to make? No one can force anyone to sell them anything unless the sale was denied because of race, nationality or creed. Doesn’t appear the dealership did anything wrong.

Mr_Shiftright

stickguy said:

So, we are having a big rain day today so I felt guilty procrastinating, and went over to Wally World last night to get the wife new wipers (since even amazon can’t deliver that quick). Ended up with Michelin stealth XT (I think that’s the model). Actually an all weather blade, “hybrid” design. Figured would give them a shot, mostly because it was the only premium brand they had in the 26” size.

Got home, popped them on (real easy) and cleaned the windshield good. I tried them, and seemed smooth and silent. Vast improvement over the old noisy chatter.

Wife drove to work in the rain, and texted that she loved! The new wipers. Guess the old ones were really annoying her. So, I get brownie points (plus I gassed it up for her). Told her she’s spoiled.

Even better, get the Rain-X washer fluid rather than the cheap stuff--it really works better.

snakeweasel

graphicguy said:

dino001 said:

People on both sides make it difficult. 

That is certainly true. I would argue that the "originator" are the car retailers. They created the "bazaar" environment and customers adapted the best they could. Some by doing solid research, others by arguing, or developing the strangest expectations.

You want strange expectations? Here you go.

https://youtu.be/VKSZUhiMcB4

Not exactly sure what that was all about. Guy offered a promissory note for a car the dealership didn’t want to sell to him. What’s his beef? Guy in the video demanded that the dealership sell him a car. They declined. Didn’t it seem like the person who video’d this was trying to over dramatize a car dealer transaction that they didn’t want to make? No one can force anyone to sell them anything unless the sale was denied because of race, nationality or creed. Doesn’t appear the dealership did anything wrong.

The guy believes you can buy stuff with a prommisary note and it can be exchanged at any bank for cash. 

This particular individual actually sells debt elimination and other financial schemes. Not sure if he just doesn't know how finances work or if he is just a con artist or both.

stickguy

I got a bottle of repel glass cleaner. Really for doing shower glass, but I got an extra for windshields to keep in garage. That should probably help too.

houdini2

berri said:

I recall some years back when Suzuki was opening all kinds of dealerships and it seemed that within a year or so they all shut down. Weird

Big dust up over the Samurai supposedly being unsafe.

ruking1

stickguy said:

I got a bottle of repel glass cleaner. Really for doing shower glass, but I got an extra for windshields to keep in garage. That should probably help too.

Rain X lasts app 1 mo (smaller bottles applied to the windshield by hand/rag) So I’m guessing that if Shiftright had good results with Rain X windshield washer fluid, that the combination of both would make the windshield ultra ultra slick.

While I have no data to back this up, it would seem to help the windshield wiper’s business last longer.

graphicguy

snakeweasel said:

graphicguy said:

snakeweasel said:

dino001 said:

People on both sides make it difficult. 

That is certainly true. I would argue that the "originator" are the car retailers. They created the "bazaar" environment and customers adapted the best they could. Some by doing solid research, others by arguing, or developing the strangest expectations.

You want strange expectations? Here you go.

https://youtu.be/VKSZUhiMcB4

Not exactly sure what that was all about. Guy offered a promissory note for a car the dealership didn’t want to sell to him. What’s his beef? Guy in the video demanded that the dealership sell him a car. They declined.

Didn’t it seem like the person who video’d this was trying to over dramatize a car dealer transaction that they didn’t want to make? No one can force anyone to sell them anything unless the sale was denied because of race, nationality or creed. Doesn’t appear the dealership did anything wrong.

The guy believes you can buy stuff with a prommisary note and it can be exchanged at any bank for cash. 

This particular individual actually sells debt elimination and other financial schemes. Not sure if he just doesn't know how finances work or if he is just a con artist or both.

Sounds like a con artist. At one point I thought I heard him say the a Promisorry Note was the same as cash. Ummmmm....not quite. Cash is Cash! A Promissory Note is a “promise” to pay someone. In this case, a promise to pay $58K for the 370Z. What’s not clear, is the video shows the guy INSISTING that the dealership honor his promissory note. If that’s the case, I’m marching down to the Ferrari dealer and giving them a promissory note while I drive away in a California. Easy-Peazy!

stickguy

I think his claim is that since the salesman took it, the dealer is legally bound to hand over the car.

I’m a bit fuzzy on how a promissory note is supposed to be funded, or why a bank would hand over cash for one.

This does sound like a premeditated scam set up hoping for this result, expecting to sue them.

ruking1

This kind of stuff is routinely consolidated, bought & sold every day on the bond markets. Car loans, new/used are 2 sample products.

The financial journalist’s routinely write about car loans, one topic can be how they reflect what is going on in the economy.

snakeweasel

stickguy said:

I think his claim is that since the salesman took it, the dealer is legally bound to hand over the car. I’m a bit fuzzy on how a promissory note is supposed to be funded, or why a bank would hand over cash for one. This does sound like a premeditated scam set up hoping for this result, expecting to sue them.

A promissory note is basically funded by the issuer of the note stating that they will pay the note, usually plus interest, at a later date. Typically these notes can be bought and sold on the open market. Now while people might be willing to buy such a note issued by say the Ford Motor Company they likely be hesitant to buy a note from you or me.

Edited to add:

I have seen this guys ramblings, he is one of those that believes that the government creates a secret bank account in your name and deposits a certain sum of money into it which they use for some reason. But if you know how to access it you can use that money to buy things and pay down debt. 

ruking1

snakeweasel said:

stickguy said:

I think his claim is that since the salesman took it, the dealer is legally bound to hand over the car.

I’m a bit fuzzy on how a promissory note is supposed to be funded, or why a bank would hand over cash for one.

This does sound like a premeditated scam set up hoping for this result, expecting to sue them.

A promissory note is basically funded by the issuer of the note stating that they will pay the note, usually plus interest, at a later date. Typically these notes can be bought and sold on the open market. Now while people might be willing to buy such a note issued by say the Ford Motor Company they likely be hesitant to buy a note from you or me.


Right, BUT, this is most commonly done in the real estate markets. Some sellers can carry back first, second, third mortgages.

abacomike

stickguy said:

I think his claim is that since the salesman took it, the dealer is legally bound to hand over the car. I’m a bit fuzzy on how a promissory note is supposed to be funded, or why a bank would hand over cash for one. This does sound like a premeditated scam set up hoping for this result, expecting to sue them.

I remember that the Lexus dealership I sold cars at would, infrequently, allow a customer to endorse a promissory note which was payable to the dealership which was due and payable on or before a specified date as detailed on the promissory in exchange for accepting delivery on a car.  The amount was rarely more than $50,0000.  

The endorsement stated that in the event the signatory defaults on the note, the dealership has the right to repossess the car (VIN listed) and the buyer/signatory shall pay for legal expenses and loss of value costs as well as all costs associated with the repossession of the vehicle.

I never heard or became aware of any customer defaulting on the promissory note.  The customer’s credit report/FICO Score had to be 800+ and references checked out.  These transactions occurred only when a customer needed to sell stocks or bonds and/or had to have funds transferred so he/she could access the funds.  All these procedures were handled by the finance manager or CFO of the dealership.

snakeweasel

ruking1 said:

stickguy said:

I think his claim is that since the salesman took it, the dealer is legally bound to hand over the car. I’m a bit fuzzy on how a promissory note is supposed to be funded, or why a bank would hand over cash for one. This does sound like a premeditated scam set up hoping for this result, expecting to sue them.

A promissory note is basically funded by the issuer of the note stating that they will pay the note, usually plus interest, at a later date. Typically these notes can be bought and sold on the open market. Now while people might be willing to buy such a note issued by say the Ford Motor Company they likely be hesitant to buy a note from you or me.

Right, BUT, this is most commonly done in the real estate markets. Some sellers can carry back first, second, third mortgages.

Companies do it a lot too.

ruking1

Actually that’s (promissary note“) a very good application. It makes not too much sense to sell stocks or bonds for the express purpose of purchasing a vehicle.
Here are just 6 reasons.

1. Everybody is familiar with the fact that (most to all) new vehicles loses (up to 20%) value right off the showroom floor.
2. Selling $(20 k) stocks or bonds (@ gains) can trigger ordinary income/capital gains taxes
3. Pre taxation $’s to buy $20,000 of stocks/bonds can be as high as $40,000.
4. A promissory note can be part of the vehicles IRS depreciation
5. One doesn’t have to come up with the cash ($20k, in this example)
6. The dealer can use the financial instrument (promissory notes) any # of ways

There are more issues, but they might be considered TMI.

PF_Flyer

You may have noticed some new discussions popping up on the list. We're going to revive the owners club concept, and I'd like to invite you all to participate if you feel so inclined.

After all, you all have been around here almost as long as the moderators (some of you even longer) and getting your experience and expertise involved would be great. The discussions are tagged so you can get to a list of them with no other clutter, and here's a link to Owners Clubs that can be bookmarked.

If we need to add more "clubs" to fit what's in your garage, feel free to create one or give one of the mods a yell and we can get it up and rolling.

stickguy

easy for me, since both my cars are the same brand!

PF_Flyer

stickguy said:

easy for me, since both my cars are the same brand!

Some people around here might be in a couple of clubs

houdini2

stickguy said:

Going up quick in jersey too.

stickguy said:

Going up quick in jersey too.

No matter what excuse they use, it is Spring and people start driving more, so it is gouge time.

roadburner

I don’t worry about fees; I concentrate on an OTD price. If I’m good with the bottom line I don’t care how it’s broken out. 

tjc78

stickguy said:

So, we are having a big rain day today so I felt guilty procrastinating, and went over to Wally World last night to get the wife new wipers (since even amazon can’t deliver that quick). Ended up with Michelin stealth XT (I think that’s the model). Actually an all weather blade, “hybrid” design. Figured would give them a shot, mostly because it was the only premium brand they had in the 26” size. Got home, popped them on (real easy) and cleaned the windshield good. I tried them, and seemed smooth and silent. Vast improvement over the old noisy chatter. Wife drove to work in the rain, and texted that she loved! The new wipers. Guess the old ones were really annoying her. So, I get brownie points (plus I gassed it up for her). Told her she’s spoiled.

Yeah crappy darn day ... of course I had to go into Center City, then NE Philly and  finish in Moorestown.  Every day I plan out of the office it pours without question. 

snakeweasel

PF_Flyer said:

easy for me, since both my cars are the same brand!

Some people around here might be in a couple of clubs

Since I didn't see either make we have I guess I am out of luck. 

sda

PF_Flyer said:

You may have noticed some new discussions popping up on the list. We're going to revive the owners club concept, and I'd like to invite you all to participate if you feel so inclined.

After all, you all have been around here almost as long as the moderators (some of you even longer) and getting your experience and expertise involved would be great. The discussions are tagged so you can get to a list of them with no other clutter, and here's a link to Owners Clubs that can be bookmarked.

If we need to add more "clubs" to fit what's in your garage, feel free to create one or give one of the mods a yell and we can get it up and rolling.

Honda, please. Were you able to have your wife’s car repaired or was it totaled?

berri

I may be wrong about this, but for some reason I recall some years back that there were criticisms that over time Rain-X can get build up on your windshield affecting visibility a little? Kind of like a bit of smudging or something. Anyone heard about this?

ruking1

It very well might be. But the instructions are actually very clear.

So for example, if too much is used and it dries, getting rid of the overage by going over that part again and wiping it very clean, again.

abacomike

ruking1 said:

Actually that’s (promissary note“) a very good application. It makes not too much sense to sell stocks or bonds for the express purpose of purchasing a vehicle. Here are just 6 reasons. 1. Everybody is familiar with the fact that (most to all) new vehicles loses (up to 20%) value right off the showroom floor. 2. Selling $(20 k) stocks or bonds (@ gains) can trigger ordinary income/capital gains taxes 3. Pre taxation $’s to buy $20,000 of stocks/bonds can be as high as $40,000. 4. A promissory note can be part of the vehicles IRS depreciation 5. One doesn’t have to come up with the cash ($20k, in this example) 6. The dealer can use the financial instrument (promissory notes) any # of ways There are more issues, but they might be considered TMI.

Ruking, it may not make sense to you, but there are all kinds of people out there in our world.  You know the term “impulsive buyer” - I am one of those “birds” (or used to be).  I have sold many, many cars to people who had no plans to buy a new car when they walked into my dealership and thus were not prepared financially to do the deal but had the means if given a few days.  Of The promissory notes I knew about at that dealership I worked at, interest did not accrue unless the buyer would have defaulted.

I once purchased a car on a promissory note that had a term of 10 days for $12,000.  I submitted a cashiers check to the dealership three days later in exchange for the promissory note.  Interest was not charged.

Of course there are tons of rationale for not selling stocks  or bonds to buy a car, but some people do.

driver100

ruking1 said:

snakeweasel said:

stickguy said:

I think his claim is that since the salesman took it, the dealer is legally bound to hand over the car.

I’m a bit fuzzy on how a promissory note is supposed to be funded, or why a bank would hand over cash for one.

This does sound like a premeditated scam set up hoping for this result, expecting to sue them.

A promissory note is basically funded by the issuer of the note stating that they will pay the note, usually plus interest, at a later date. Typically these notes can be bought and sold on the open market. Now while people might be willing to buy such a note issued by say the Ford Motor Company they likely be hesitant to buy a note from you or me.

Right, BUT, this is most commonly done in the real estate markets. Some sellers can carry back first, second, third mortgages.

I know about promissory notes because the SIL tried giving me one.
My lawyer said don't take it unless you have some security to hold onto...or don't expect it to be paid.

driver100

stickguy said:

easy for me, since both my cars are the same brand!

Our 3 cars are the same brand.

PF_Flyer

snakeweasel said:

PF_Flyer said:

stickguy said:

easy for me, since both my cars are the same brand!

Some people around here might be in a couple of clubs

Since I didn't see either make we have I guess I am out of luck. 

More makes coming. Just getting started! I DO take requests Rub the magic lamp and speak a name!!

explorerx4

@PF_Flyer,
What is the point of these new forums? I'm trying to understand.

abacomike

I just replaced my water filter on my Whirlpool refrigerator.  It takes me about 10 minutes to accomplish this task instead of 2-3 minutes because of poor design and engineering.  My model’s compartment for the filter is on the very bottom exterior under the freezer section.  This requires me to get on all fours to open the lid, pull out the old filter, put in the new filter, close the filter door, and then contort my body to get back on my feet.  Remember, I am 74 years old with a bad left knee and bad back.  Terrible design!

I SHOULD HAVE CALLED THE GUY!!!   

ruking1

abacomike said:

ruking1 said:

Actually that’s (promissary note“) a very good application. It makes not too much sense to sell stocks or bonds for the express purpose of purchasing a vehicle.
Here are just 6 reasons.

1. Everybody is familiar with the fact that (most to all) new vehicles loses (up to 20%) value right off the showroom floor.
2. Selling $(20 k) stocks or bonds (@ gains) can trigger ordinary income/capital gains taxes
3. Pre taxation $’s to buy $20,000 of stocks/bonds can be as high as $40,000.
4. A promissory note can be part of the vehicles IRS depreciation
5. One doesn’t have to come up with the cash ($20k, in this example)
6. The dealer can use the financial instrument (promissory notes) any # of ways

There are more issues, but they might be considered TMI.

Ruking, it may not make sense to you, but there are all kinds of people out there in our world.  You know the term “impulsive buyer” - I am one of those “birds” (or used to be).  I have sold many, many cars to people who had no plans to buy a new car when they walked into my dealership and thus were not prepared financially to do the deal but had the means if given a few days.  Of The promissory notes I knew about at that dealership I worked at, interest did not accrue unless the buyer would have defaulted.

I once purchased a car on a promissory note that had a term of 10 days for $12,000.  I submitted a cashiers check to the dealership three days later in exchange for the promissory note.  Interest was not charged.

Of course there are tons of rationale for not selling stocks  or bonds to buy a car, but some people do.

Indeed abacomike, given only 6 of the reasons. For sure, some to many folks really don’t care, as you have alluded..

Now, I’m curious what are the going interest rates on promissary notes for new/used cars.

tjc78

driver100 said:

it is that easy driver. You do the legwork to come up with a reasonable price you will pay, and shop that payment (and months/miles of course included). The rest of it, is basically irrelevant (how they get there). Residual is fixed anyway by the leasing company (captive finance). you might not know how they made the sausage, but you really don't care since you are giving it back at the end anyway!

I think leasing is slightly easier stick....mainly because there is less room to negotiate....certain fees like interest costs are already built in (whereas when buying you can use your own lender, or pay cash etc), but, it sounds like almost the same amount of work.....fighting the dealer for the best deal possible, and being on guard to protect you from their schemes.

One of our hosts coined it best recently.  Leasing is an art form.  

There are tons of things to consider when leasing.

Is the dealer marking up the MF?

Is the 24, 36 or 39 month term best?

Dispo fee?

Selling price? 

Is the captive bank best or are there other choices?

Is there lease cash? 

And above all... some cars just stink to lease regardless of how great a deal you grind out because the programs stink. 

An example was the Honda Pilot, MF was high and no incentives.  The higher priced MDX actually yielded lower lease payments. 

imidazol97

driver100 said:

I know about promissory notes because the SIL tried giving me one.
My lawyer said don't take it unless you have some security to hold onto...or don't expect it to be paid.

That agrees with Judge Judy's opinion.