Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

abacomike

Michaell said:

Hey folks! I'm looking for a little help from you all. I'm compiling information about doc fees, taxes and DMV costs for each state, to help with the advice I give folks who ask questions about leasing. Since we have people scattered all about the country, I'd like to pick your brain about some of this. What I'm looking for, specifically: 1. How are leases taxed? (monthly payment, the full selling price, or the sum of the payments collected up front) 2. Dealer doc fees? (what's typical, is it capped) 3. DMV fees? (how much, is there a formula, one year or multiple years) 4. Any other state specific information you think might help me If you have information for multiple states, I'd very much appreciate it.

In FL, the typical dealer fees range from $499 to $699, depending on luxury vs. non-luxury dealerships.  No cap.

Leases are taxed at the county sales tax % every month and added to the monthly lease payment.

DMV license and registration fees are about $75 to $150 per year depending on the weight of the vehicle.  

abacomike

snakeweasel said:

dino001 said:
One alleged legal requirement is you charge "the same amount to everybody" to avoid discriminatory charges 

I have to call BS on that one. Why is it discrimination to charge different people different doc fees but not discrimination to charge different people different prices on the same car, or to discount certain things during negotiations?

In FL, the doc fee must be pre-printed on the buyers order and bill of sale and charged to everyone with no exceptions.  However, as you negotiate your deal, the doc fee can be deducted from the sales price but then must be added back on the bill of sale or buyers order.  

dino001

abacomike said:

In FL, the typical dealer fees range from $499 to $699, depending on luxury vs. non-luxury dealerships.  No cap.

Leases are taxed at the county sales tax % every month and added to the monthly lease payment.

DMV license and registration fees are about $75 to $150 per year depending on the weight of the vehicle.  

Mike, you obviously haven't bought, or even looked at a Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, or Kia these days. Those are $799-$999.

tjc78

South East Toyota (SET) is in a league all their own. If I lived in an area that they serviced I wouldn't even look at a Toyota.

Port installed options galore, huge fees...

Michaell

dino001 said:

Here is another one. So 2 oil changes, roadside, rental car assistance (only in case of a breakdown), tire rotations, and paint sealant come in supervalue price at $699. What's worse they are actually part of a car sticker (installed at the port), so customer is made to think there is no opt-out (and there may not be, depending on how rigid the dealer is in final pricing).

SouthEast Toyota is pretty crazy with those charges.

Thanks to all who have answered my questions.

dino001

tjc78 said:

South East Toyota (SET) is in a league all their own. If I lived in an area that they serviced I wouldn't even look at a Toyota.

Port installed options galore, huge fees...

Yep, unfortunately Honda dealers are not far behind, neither are Kia or Hyundai. But they are a bit less institutionalized, SET is doing a lot of it (infamous Toyoguard junk) all before cars even hit the dealers. True Wild Wild Southeast here.

dino001

Michaell said:

SouthEast Toyota is pretty crazy with those charges.

Thanks to all who have answered my questions.

I think this is a good effort on your part. Edmunds is currently giving this TMV price on vehicles, but with those rampant Florida fees it's always hard to know if that "market value" should have those are added on top, or rather included and then so-called price should reflect it by subtracting the fee. Perhaps the true value is the one with the fee on top, but it's really hard to know at first. When the fees used to be couple of hundred bucks, it wasn't such a big deal, now the fee can exceed 5 percent of the vehicle price.

Salespeople get comfortable calling the Edmunds "market price" for their deal if they can tack on another thousand bucks of their "whatever" fee, which tells me there is room under there and the values don't really reflect our "local fee flavor", even though the zipcode suggests they should - there is "regional adjustment" in there, but it is usually very small, seems to me it's more about the color, or trim popularity in the region, not the fee structure. One test is if you put a different one, the TMV doesn't really change that much, even though the fee may be just a quarter of that in Florida.

I think it would be a great article or even a tab in Edmund's website about those fees. But it would take some work to get all the info.

28firefighter

@Michaell, here you go for Washington:

(1) Doc fees are capped at $150 across the board - every dealer charges it, though in theory it is a "negotiable" fee.

(2) Leases are taxed on the monthly payment at your local tax rate with a 0.3% surcharge for leases added on top. In Seattle Metro, depending on your municipality, rates will run anywhere from 10-10.6%. In suburban and rural counties it will be less. Additionally, any lease incentives that are applied are taxed at the same rate and added to the upfront costs of the lease.

(3) DMV fees are a mess. If you live in one of the RTA regions of Washington (basically anywhere from Everett to Tacoma moving North/South) you pay a 1.3% tax on the value of the car each year. Hotly disputed item right now because of how they calculate the values of the car year over year, but you can safely assume at lease signing that you'll pay about ~1.5% of the vehicle cost to register it - dealers use a site to estimate the cost based on VIN, then overcharge a bit and refund it after they get the final bill. My Alfa (MSRP 48,740) had $654 in registration fees.

dino001

I did a quick Edmunds TMV on a base Corolla Hatchback. "Regional adjustment" difference is around $420, so if you assume SET Tampa is $799$-899 fees and Ohio's $250, it makes only about $100-250 more expensive in Tampa than Cincinatti using Edmund's TMV's and shelling out the fees on top. Not terrible, but big enough to make a difference. That's before the regional incentives of $1000, not present in Tampa. That makes me think SET is way too comfortable, if they don't need incentives.

Tampa


Cincinatti (fees capped @ $250):

andres3

jmonroe1 said:

snakeweasel said:

andres3 said:

abacomike said:

berri said:

Spring break is a tough call for places like Florida. Residents get sick of the rowdiness, but the students bring a lot of money into the economy helping to hold down taxes.

The only places that benefit from spring breakers’ money are the public beach areas along the east coast and the panhandle coast.  But the increased costs of law enforcement negative a lot of that.

Isn't law enforcement a sunk cost? Or is someone trigger-happy on approving overtime.

it's partially a sunk cost. The level of law enforcement goes up greatly during spring break. The normal manpower requirements of the area would be overwhelmed during spring break meaning you would have to have a stronger presence meaning more overtime.

I have to think that by now these popular spring break towns should pretty much know what their police costs are going to be. I know that means these places have to think ahead but complaining every year pretty much points to their incompetence.

jmonroe

Easy solution; write more traffic tickets!

andres3

berri said:

Isn't law enforcement a sunk cost?

That's an interesting topic. It seems whenever additional police, etc. are needed, be it spring break, parades, whatever, that the cities often quote the cost as simply hourly rate (including benefits) plus overtime time premium, or a fully loaded labor rate. On a cash flow basis it is just the overtime pay premium times hours because the basic pay and benefits are fixed each pay period. It is an incremental increase. Clever way to build up data supporting budget increases for next year or exaggerating costs to support a political position. Personally, I'd have to think cities would crack down heavily to effectively ban the spring breakers if they were losing money on it overall. Legally, you probably can't just ban it, but you can make the experience unpleasant to discourage repeat spring breakers.

$550 dollar red-light camera enforcement is one technique to discourage repeat visitors. Especially when the vast majority of citations are for fully safe right-turns on red where a full stop was technically not achieved, but no right-of-ways were violated.

Michaell

In the spirit of full disclosure, here is the information for Colorado:

1. Doc fees are not regulated, and run from $399-699, depending on the dealer.
2. Sales tax, it turns out, is quite the mess. I've known for years that there is a combination of state, county, city and special district sales taxes - generally adding up to between 7-8.5%. I now live in an unincorporated part of my county, so taxes are 5%. But, what is interesting is that for leases, the method of calculation and collection also varies. The town I lived in when I leased the Jetta collects their share of the sales tax up front, while the state and county collect on the monthly payment.
3. Registration costs are handled at the county level, and the state imposes a personal property tax on a sliding scale for the first 5 years, then a fixed rate after that.

oldfarmer50

dino001 said:

Here is another one. So 2 oil changes, roadside, rental car assistance (only in case of a breakdown), tire rotations, and paint sealant come in supervalue price at $699. What's worse they are actually part of a car sticker (installed at the port), so customer is made to think there is no opt-out (and there may not be, depending on how rigid the dealer is in final pricing).

It’s funny, the Kia dealer had all sorts of extra warranties for lost keys, flat tires and then there was one for oil changes too. It was called a ‘routine maintenance’ package but on a new car what else would it be? It was something like that Toyotaguard and had a similar price. It was optional here and they didn’t try to push it because they saw me chuckling.

Love that $369 for floor mats. Kia charges $125. I wonder if they’d still charge me $69 for all the UBS cables if I told them I don’t own a cell phone? And A $900 doc fee? What crooks.

oldfarmer50

graphicguy said:

oldfarmer50 said:

Interesting video on the low end car business:

https://youtu.be/41X3PCQ7TKk

OF...cool video. That business is kind of what I expected it to be.

Side note, last year, for a brief period of time, I was dating a lady whose “ex” owned a Buy Here/Pay Here lot. But, he was using it to launder money for some unsavory types, got caught and went to prison. She left him. Kind of weird, as she said she had no idea what he was doing. Hard to fathom someone being that naive.

I hope you used that to your advantage.

oldfarmer50

abacomike said:

snakeweasel said:

dino001 said:
One alleged legal requirement is you charge "the same amount to everybody" to avoid discriminatory charges 

I have to call BS on that one. Why is it discrimination to charge different people different doc fees but not discrimination to charge different people different prices on the same car, or to discount certain things during negotiations?

In FL, the doc fee must be pre-printed on the buyers order and bill of sale and charged to everyone with no exceptions.  However, as you negotiate your deal, the doc fee can be deducted from the sales price but then must be added back on the bill of sale or buyers order.  

That would be the perfect situation to make an out the door offer and let them figure out where to put the numbers. I remember someone here once saying that those large doc fees were just a way to screw the salesman since his/her commission was based on price minus doc and fees.

andres3

stickguy said:

No rules limiting doc fees in NJ and they have been going up lately. I’m seeing $399 as quite common now. A few years ago it was more like $199. Q certainly knew the tax rules (he should!) but it’s calculated up front, not applied to the payment so if you roll it in, you are paying interest on the tax. Other than that, a few junk fees ($1.5 per tire, stuff like that).

Sales tax is at state level, so doesn’t matter where you live, it’s the same rate.

In CA it does matter where you live, as Cities are allowed to SPIKE the sales tax upward beyond the State level.

andres3

On an initiated "Costco" car purchase price I'm not sure I got the lowest quoted price the way it was supposed to work. Anyway, we negotiated it down because we were not buyers at the quoted price. They ended up lowering the price of the car even further (VW Sportwagen) and selling us the LOJACK at full 100% retail. The bonus on selling Lojack for full retail must of been good!

ruking1

andres3 said:

jmonroe1 said:

snakeweasel said:

andres3 said:

abacomike said:

berri said:

Spring break is a tough call for places like Florida. Residents get sick of the rowdiness, but the students bring a lot of money into the economy helping to hold down taxes.

The only places that benefit from spring breakers’ money are the public beach areas along the east coast and the panhandle coast.  But the increased costs of law enforcement negative a lot of that.

Isn't law enforcement a sunk cost? Or is someone trigger-happy on approving overtime.

it's partially a sunk cost. The level of law enforcement goes up greatly during spring break. The normal manpower requirements of the area would be overwhelmed during spring break meaning you would have to have a stronger presence meaning more overtime.

I have to think that by now these popular spring break towns should pretty much know what their police costs are going to be. I know that means these places have to think ahead but complaining every year pretty much points to their incompetence.

jmonroe

Easy solution; write more traffic tickets!

Indeed, so called “Spring Break” is really a (& similar to) defacto huge “conferences” that big hotels & conference centers put on!

The underlying & real obvious drivers are of course the revenues. But it’s really the citizens complaining about the goose/geese that lays the golden egg/s (every year for how many weeks at “spring break”). Urban planning indicates that for every $ spend locally has an 8 to 1 multiplier effect. Most municipalities/people would kill for that kind of multiplier. It is particularly noticeable when it is not there.

So for example, it is not commonly known that the alcoholic beverage, wine, beer, spirits tax can be up to $.73 per $ dollar.

snakeweasel

andres3 said:

No rules limiting doc fees in NJ and they have been going up lately. I’m seeing $399 as quite common now. A few years ago it was more like $199. Q certainly knew the tax rules (he should!) but it’s calculated up front, not applied to the payment so if you roll it in, you are paying interest on the tax. Other than that, a few junk fees ($1.5 per tire, stuff like that). Sales tax is at state level, so doesn’t matter where you live, it’s the same rate.

In CA it does matter where you live, as Cities are allowed to SPIKE the sales tax upward beyond the State level.

same in Illinois, counties and cities add onto the sales tax. I used to live in the city of Chicao right on the edge of the town. A couple miles to the west was the county line and sales tax there was about 2% lower than in the city. Since I worked out that was it was a no brainer to buy things there. 

andres3

snakeweasel said:

andres3 said:

stickguy said:

No rules limiting doc fees in NJ and they have been going up lately. I’m seeing $399 as quite common now. A few years ago it was more like $199. Q certainly knew the tax rules (he should!) but it’s calculated up front, not applied to the payment so if you roll it in, you are paying interest on the tax. Other than that, a few junk fees ($1.5 per tire, stuff like that).

Sales tax is at state level, so doesn’t matter where you live, it’s the same rate.

In CA it does matter where you live, as Cities are allowed to SPIKE the sales tax upward beyond the State level.

same in Illinois, counties and cities add onto the sales tax. I used to live in the city of Chicao right on the edge of the town. A couple miles to the west was the county line and sales tax there was about 2% lower than in the city. Since I worked out that was it was a no brainer to buy things there. 

I do all my shopping in 7.75 zones and avoid the Cities with 8.25 or 8.5% sales tax.

However, CA exempts cars and at least refrigerators from this technique. I was quite surprised when asked for my home address at Sears while purchasing a fridge in a 7.75% zone, and I even asked what if I arrange my own delivery? No go, they want to charge me the higher sales tax for living in the wrong zip code.

ruking1

I worked it in reverse for a set washer, dryer-gas from a Home Depot In CA in a higher tax county for delivery in a lower tax county.

dino001

BTW, Florida sales tax is 6% state plus local ranging from 0 to 2.5% (my county is the highest ), but usually charged only on first $5000 of the transaction. So in my county would be 6%+$125.

abacomike

dino001 said:

In FL, the typical dealer fees range from $499 to $699, depending on luxury vs. non-luxury dealerships.  No cap.

Leases are taxed at the county sales tax % every month and added to the monthly lease payment.

DMV license and registration fees are about $75 to $150 per year depending on the weight of the vehicle.  

Mike, you obviously haven't bought, or even looked at a Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, or Kia these days. Those are $799-$999.

I have looked at those cars, but never got to the buyers order or bill of sale to see those fees.  $799-$999 would cause me to walk right out the dealership door just on principle.  Any dealership that adds that kind of profit to a $15,000 - $45,000 car should be shot on sight - or at least given the “bird” as you walk out of the dealership.

Around here, because of the stiff competition, dealer fees are more in the $499-$699 range. It all depends on the geographic area.  More and more dealers are advertising “0” dealer fees, which is interesting.

dino001

abacomike said:

I have looked at those cars, but never got to the buyers order or bill of sale to see those fees.  $799-$999 would cause me to walk right out the dealership door just on principle.  Any dealership that adds that kind of profit to a $15,000 - $45,000 car should be shot on sight - or at least given the “bird” as you walk out of the dealership.

Around here, because of the stiff competition, dealer fees are more in the $499-$699 range. It all depends on the geographic area.  More and more dealers are advertising “0” dealer fees, which is interesting.

You ain't seen nothing yet, Mike I remember in early 2000s local Mazda dealer in Tallahassee had a 626 on display (this was an outgoing model at the time, widely panned as fairly unattractive). It had... $1500 ADM sticker ("market adjustment"). I know you can always ask, you have to believe Tallahassee must be some kind of paradise for dealers if they feel no shame in posting something like that on a five years old model.

From what I research, Tampa Bay is high, but not highest. That dubious honor seems to go to Miami area. A quick search showed $999 in several Miami Toyo dealers. I want to see if we have a $1000+ winner, somewhere around... Well, since the dealer fee is taxable, $999 is effectively $1000+.

ruking1

abacomike said:

dino001 said:

abacomike said:

In FL, the typical dealer fees range from $499 to $699, depending on luxury vs. non-luxury dealerships.  No cap.

Leases are taxed at the county sales tax % every month and added to the monthly lease payment.

DMV license and registration fees are about $75 to $150 per year depending on the weight of the vehicle.  

Mike, you obviously haven't bought, or even looked at a Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, or Kia these days. Those are $799-$999.

I have looked at those cars, but never got to the buyers order or bill of sale to see those fees.  $799-$999 would cause me to walk right out the dealership door just on principle.  Any dealership that adds that kind of profit to a $15,000 - $45,000 car should be shot on sight - or at least given the “bird” as you walk out of the dealership.

Around here, because of the stiff competition, dealer fees are more in the $499-$699 range. It all depends on the geographic area.  More and more dealers are advertising “0” dealer fees, which is interesting.

Perhaps it might be a better outcome if one just negotiate the (up to) $1,000 fees down toward as close to zero $/% as possible. Or knowing that fees can be as high as $1,000, just offer up to $1,000 less?

dino001

ruking1 said:

Perhaps it might be a better outcome if one just negotiate the (up to) $1,000 fees down toward as close to zero $/% as possible. Or knowing that fees can be as high as $1,000, just offer up to $1,000 less?

Of course, but it's the underhanded nature of this pricing tactic that's outrageous and it's clearly designed to be predatory to peel more money from those less informed by purposefully using their time into thinking they're going to get a good deal and springing it when paperwork arrives in hope they won't walk away to start the process again somewhere else. The problem the beast is eating its own tale. When it was $299, one could have said "what's couple of hundred between friends". It of course was actually three, but whatever. At that level you could even buy some sad story of supporting the clerk that has to send your paperwork and the boy who washes your car before the delivery. Many people would mumble "whatever" and just sign. But now it's no longer a negligible amount. It is basically 5% of a compact car price, or 3% of a midsize SUV.

We don't get taken by those scams, we know better. It's that single mother, college kid, or grandpa, who don't have interest in latest developments in car retail industry practices, they come in, or call in, or see printed ad, saying "Camry at $XXXX". They believe it, then the contract is put in front of them and they end up paying sometimes $1000+ for literally no added value.

ruking1

5%/3% are indeed hefty! It’s no accident those line items are PROMINENT in the financial contract? All those people, mention need to do is to say: the price we agreed upon is the story & we are sticking to it.

Now if they like to pussyfoot around, just say the longer it takes to get this processed the lower the price goes. Then start the renegotiations.

dino001

ruking1 said:

5%/3% are indeed hefty! It’s no accident those line items are PROMINENT in the financial contract? All those people, mention need to do is to say: the price we agreed upon is the story & we are sticking to it.

Of course that's what they need to do, duh. But I guess you were never young, alone, busy, needing something done today and put under pressure to do it now "or else" you are a bad person who will make the salesman's (your best friend, of course) kids starve if you leave now I know I was, 15-20 years ago.

imidazol97

Many of the folks buying a car really don't care about the line items on the contract nor even about the total at the bottom line. Rather they care about a monthly payment.

I have seen all kinds of ads from Honda through the years and I have never seen a total price for purchasing the vehicle mentioned: it's always the monthly payment that's prominently displayed for a particular model for a particular loan period. Or it's a lease. I suspect toyota's the same.

explorerx4

Here in CT sales tax is 6.35% or 7.75% if over 50k.
Doc fees are usually in 399-499 range. Did see one for $399 plus $195 product specialist fee.
Sales tax on leases is added to each lease payment(not up front).
Registration is $80 or $90 for 2 years. Title $25.
Of course, we also have annual property tax.

ruking1

dino001 said:

ruking1 said:

5%/3% are indeed hefty! It’s no accident those line items are PROMINENT in the financial contract? All those people, mention need to do is to say: the price we agreed upon is the story & we are sticking to it.

Of course that's what they need to do, duh. But I guess you were never young, alone, busy, needing something done today and put under pressure to do it now "or else" you are a bad person who will make the salesman's (your best friend, of course) kids starve if you leave now I know I was, 15-20 years ago.

I’m still mentally 25 years young, so I bought my 1970 VW Beetle in 1971, 5 years ago😜 , alone, busy, needed somethings done today’s, put under pressures to do it now, or else... etc., etc.

One thing I’ve found to do this. Since this “toilet paper long” printer contract is an agreement that IS legally binding, just X OUT the “offending” fees/lines. Then ask the finance person to initial. 👍😎 Doing that seems to make it “motivational/real VERY quick?

snakeweasel

dino001 said:
You ain't seen nothing yet, Mike I remember in early 2000s local Mazda dealer in Tallahassee had a 626 on display (this was an outgoing model at the time, widely panned as fairly unattractive). It had... $1500 ADM sticker ("market adjustment"). I know you can always ask, you have to believe Tallahassee must be some kind of paradise for dealers if they feel no shame in posting something like that on a five years old model. From what I research, 

A dozen years ago or so when Suzuki was still selling cars here they came out with the SX4, an AWD compact car. Since I was involved in a discussion here on Edmunds about that car and there was a dealer close to me I though I would check it out in person. The dealer had a $4k ADM sticker on it. The MSRP was only $16k, and there wasn't much of a demand for them.

dino001

Crazy times. I guess it was "rare vehicle/future classic surcharge".

Michaell

snakeweasel said:

dino001 said:
You ain't seen nothing yet, Mike I remember in early 2000s local Mazda dealer in Tallahassee had a 626 on display (this was an outgoing model at the time, widely panned as fairly unattractive). It had... $1500 ADM sticker ("market adjustment"). I know you can always ask, you have to believe Tallahassee must be some kind of paradise for dealers if they feel no shame in posting something like that on a five years old model.

From what I research, 

A dozen years ago or so when Suzuki was still selling cars here they came out with the SX4, an AWD compact car. Since I was involved in a discussion here on Edmunds about that car and there was a dealer close to me I though I would check it out in person. The dealer had a $4k ADM sticker on it. The MSRP was only $16k, and there wasn't much of a demand for them.

I was pretty intrigued with the SX4, as well, until I learned that the gas tank was so small, and the MPG so poor, that a full tank would net you around 200-250 miles.

imidazol97

To add to GG's Ohio vehicle cost info, the license plate renewal fee here for my car due in April is $31.

The county also has a $25 fee they have voted to add on for bridges, IIRC, since they prefer to spend their general fund on other things.

If I want a new piece of metal for the plate, that's $8.25. The rude folks at the BMV get a $3.50 fee.

That's the rate whether I'm renewing the Lexus or the Cobalt's plates. Total $59.50.

There is no tax based on value or weight.

I'll be interesting to hear the EV folks complaining in a year when they have to pay a $200 fee\ for road use taxes/fuel tax replacement. It's my understanding it will be part of registering the car.

suydam

I don’t hear EV folks complain much. For my part, I’m happy to contribute my share to the maintenance of roads and highways. I’d be happier if some of that $ got plowed back into charge station infrastructure, even if there was a base fee for charging as part of that.

driver100

Michaell said:

snakeweasel said:

dino001 said:
You ain't seen nothing yet, Mike I remember in early 2000s local Mazda dealer in Tallahassee had a 626 on display (this was an outgoing model at the time, widely panned as fairly unattractive). It had... $1500 ADM sticker ("market adjustment"). I know you can always ask, you have to believe Tallahassee must be some kind of paradise for dealers if they feel no shame in posting something like that on a five years old model.

From what I research, 

A dozen years ago or so when Suzuki was still selling cars here they came out with the SX4, an AWD compact car. Since I was involved in a discussion here on Edmunds about that car and there was a dealer close to me I though I would check it out in person. The dealer had a $4k ADM sticker on it. The MSRP was only $16k, and there wasn't much of a demand for them.

I was pretty intrigued with the SX4, as well, until I learned that the gas tank was so small, and the MPG so poor, that a full tank would net you around 200-250 miles

.

The car was cheap for what you got......and people loved them, most reviews including Edmunds and CR give it 4 1/2 stars. There was probably a shortage and so the dealer thought they might as well milk it for all it was worth.

Only 24 to 25 mpg....not a lot for a little car. people loved the handling and the AWD.

berri

I recall some years back when Suzuki was opening all kinds of dealerships and it seemed that within a year or so they all shut down. Weird

oldfarmer50

ruking1 said:

abacomike said:

dino001 said:

abacomike said:

In FL, the typical dealer fees range from $499 to $699, depending on luxury vs. non-luxury dealerships.  No cap.

Leases are taxed at the county sales tax % every month and added to the monthly lease payment.

DMV license and registration fees are about $75 to $150 per year depending on the weight of the vehicle.  

Mike, you obviously haven't bought, or even looked at a Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, or Kia these days. Those are $799-$999.

I have looked at those cars, but never got to the buyers order or bill of sale to see those fees.  $799-$999 would cause me to walk right out the dealership door just on principle.  Any dealership that adds that kind of profit to a $15,000 - $45,000 car should be shot on sight - or at least given the “bird” as you walk out of the dealership.

Around here, because of the stiff competition, dealer fees are more in the $499-$699 range. It all depends on the geographic area.  More and more dealers are advertising “0” dealer fees, which is interesting.

Perhaps it might be a better outcome if one just negotiate the (up to) $1,000 fees down toward as close to zero $/% as possible. Or knowing that fees can be as high as $1,000, just offer up to $1,000 less?

I think that’s what smart people do. The dealer makes his money off everyone else. I’ve adopted the GG strategy of making an out the door offer and letting them adjust where they put the numbers.

ab348

berri said:

I recall some years back when Suzuki was opening all kinds of dealerships and it seemed that within a year or so they all shut down. Weird

Well, they were trying to sell Suzukis, so not really all that weird.

jmonroe1

snakeweasel said:

jmonroe1 said:

stickguy said:

you seemed to have missed the instruction to look at the date of the post.

I saw it. A stupid idea is a stupid idea whenever it's proposed.

jmonroe

Even when it's proposed just in time for April fools day?

Yes, even then.

jmonroe

stickguy

all this stuff about crazy doc fees makes leasing even more attractive, since it is even easier to just shop monthly price at $x down.

driver100

stickguy said:

all this stuff about crazy doc fees makes leasing even more attractive, since it is even easier to just shop monthly price at $x down.

Not as easy as it seems Stick. Lots of variables there too, buy back price, mileage allowance, interest rate fee, and all the fees are usually rolled into the price...you don't know what you are getting.

I leased a 95 Jeep and thought I had an OK price. I tried getting an AAA price and they sent me to a dealer who was $20 a month lower, which is $600 less over 30 month lease (I think), but, the big difference was the buy back was about $800 less.......add them up and the small difference really makes a difference. Being fairly new to leasing, I didn't really know the ins and outs or how to figure out what I was actually paying for the car.

stickguy

it is that easy driver. You do the legwork to come up with a reasonable price you will pay, and shop that payment (and months/miles of course included). The rest of it, is basically irrelevant (how they get there). Residual is fixed anyway by the leasing company (captive finance).

you might not know how they made the sausage, but you really don't care since you are giving it back at the end anyway!

snakeweasel

driver100 said:

Michaell said:

snakeweasel said:

dino001 said:
You ain't seen nothing yet, Mike I remember in early 2000s local Mazda dealer in Tallahassee had a 626 on display (this was an outgoing model at the time, widely panned as fairly unattractive). It had... $1500 ADM sticker ("market adjustment"). I know you can always ask, you have to believe Tallahassee must be some kind of paradise for dealers if they feel no shame in posting something like that on a five years old model.

From what I research, 

A dozen years ago or so when Suzuki was still selling cars here they came out with the SX4, an AWD compact car. Since I was involved in a discussion here on Edmunds about that car and there was a dealer close to me I though I would check it out in person. The dealer had a $4k ADM sticker on it. The MSRP was only $16k, and there wasn't much of a demand for them.

I was pretty intrigued with the SX4, as well, until I learned that the gas tank was so small, and the MPG so poor, that a full tank would net you around 200-250 miles

.

The car was cheap for what you got......and people loved them, most reviews including Edmunds and CR give it 4 1/2 stars. There was probably a shortage and so the dealer thought they might as well milk it for all it was worth.

Only 24 to 25 mpg....not a lot for a little car. people loved the handling and the AWD.

There is one a few houses down the street from us. Maybe I'll strike up a conversation with its owner about it.

karhill1

The reality is all dealer fees are junk fees, fake fees. Dealers sell at a price. That price includes all dealer costs plus dealer profit or loss. When dealers ad a fake fee like documentation or, as comically noted above, a product specialist fee they are doing it for a couple of reasons.

First, as many have noted, is to increase profit. Dealers hope many customers will simply accept the fee and only negotiate the advertised price. The sad thing is many buyers actually fall for this scheme.

Second, dealers like to separate the actual price into two parts. That allows them to advertise a lower price and corresponding payment based on the price less fee while hiding the fee in small print. The hope, of course, is the lower amounts will draw customers to their dealership where their trained sales staff has a chance to sell.

Of course dealers use the word "fee" because they know many people will attach a false legitimacy to that word.

Consider documentation. When a person buys a new vehicle they are required to wait an interminable amount of time while the sales man or woman working in the F&I office prepares all the documents and, most important for the dealership, develops an sales approach tailored to the buyer designed to sell from a plethora of overpriced products of dubious value.

Essentially all required documents are prepared and finalized during the buyer's incarceration in the F&I office. Other than that all that is required relating to the documents is for them to be stored and sent to the MVA, usually as a group.

A curious mind might ask does this "documentation" really cost upwards of a $1,000 or more?

A curious mind might also ask why is there only a fee for documentation? Shouldn't there be a fee for utilities, wages, rent, or any other cost a dealer may incur while conducting business?

Complicit in this scheme are the many car buying sites who, for some reason, imply these fees are a legitimate business cost. Yes they are a cost but they are a dealer costs and, as such, are part of the price.

All buyers should know when they buy they pay a price. Other than that price the only additional cost they are should pay are those imposed by the government such as registration or sales tax.

Of course those lease acquisition fees are also fake, but that is another topic.

Finally, if I were to encounter a dealership who tried to steal $195 from me for a "product specialist" my laugh would be enjoyable.

driver100

I wonder what would happen if you walked into a dealer and said you don't need a specialist...you will examine the car yourself.....take it on a test drive yourself, and you will do all the documentation work except their paperwork which they have staff on hand to do anyway........and you say, if I do that, I'll even screw my own license plates on, I expect you to knock off those fees from the price?

driver100

stickguy said:

it is that easy driver. You do the legwork to come up with a reasonable price you will pay, and shop that payment (and months/miles of course included). The rest of it, is basically irrelevant (how they get there). Residual is fixed anyway by the leasing company (captive finance).

you might not know how they made the sausage, but you really don't care since you are giving it back at the end anyway!

I think leasing is slightly easier stick....mainly because there is less room to negotiate....certain fees like interest costs are already built in (whereas when buying you can use your own lender, or pay cash etc), but, it sounds like almost the same amount of work.....fighting the dealer for the best deal possible, and being on guard to protect you from their schemes.

imidazol97

An Atlanta talk guy who tells people how to be cheap went on and on last evening about how Costco was the cheapest place to buy a new car. My question is about the documentation fee.

Is the price the folks at Costco get and take to the dealer the bottom end price? OR does the dealer actually use the price as a base and then in the final signing there are all these fees, including the $999 documentation fee. "Costco doesn't include our documentation fee in their price. You must pay that."

Does anyone have experience with Costco. Clark also mentioned Sam's using a slightly different 3-dealer recommendation.

snakeweasel

karhill1 said:

The reality is all dealer fees are junk fees, fake fees. Dealers sell at a price. That price includes all dealer costs plus dealer profit or loss. When dealers ad a fake fee like documentation or, as comically noted above, a product specialist fee they are doing it for a couple of reasons. First, as many have noted, is to increase profit. Dealers hope many customers will simply accept the fee and only negotiate the advertised price. The sad thing is many buyers actually fall for this scheme. Second, dealers like to separate the actual price into two parts. That allows them to advertise a lower price and corresponding payment based on the price less fee while hiding the fee in small print. The hope, of course, is the lower amounts will draw customers to their dealership where their trained sales staff has a chance to sell. Of course dealers use the word "fee" because they know many people will attach a false legitimacy to that word. Consider documentation. When a person buys a new vehicle they are required to wait an interminable amount of time while the sales man or woman working in the F&I office prepares all the documents and, most important for the dealership, develops an sales approach tailored to the buyer designed to sell from a plethora of overpriced products of dubious value. Essentially all required documents are prepared and finalized during the buyer's incarceration in the F&I office. Other than that all that is required relating to the documents is for them to be stored and sent to the MVA, usually as a group. A curious mind might ask does this "documentation" really cost upwards of a $1,000 or more? A curious mind might also ask why is there only a fee for documentation? Shouldn't there be a fee for utilities, wages, rent, or any other cost a dealer may incur while conducting business? Complicit in this scheme are the many car buying sites who, for some reason, imply these fees are a legitimate business cost. Yes they are a cost but they are a dealer costs and, as such, are part of the price. All buyers should know when they buy they pay a price. Other than that price the only additional cost they are should pay are those imposed by the government such as registration or sales tax. Of course those lease acquisition fees are also fake, but that is another topic. Finally, if I were to encounter a dealership who tried to steal $195 from me for a "product specialist" my laugh would be enjoyable.

Most dealerships are connected to the DMV via the internet and the paperwork is all done electronically. The car will be titled, registered and the DMV will have all the records of it before you get up out of your seat. All the costs associated with just this runs from $20 on up depending on volume but wouldn't come anywhere near what dealers charge. 

Anyway I believe that the dealership should build that into their price.