Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

abacomike

nyccarguy said:

isellhondas said:

Extreme hot of cold weather is tough on batteries. When I managed a large Sears Auto Repair facility I remember hearing that a Diehard would only last about three years in places like Las Vegas or Phoenix. Same applied to very cold places.

When I lived in Palm Desert, CA (near Palm Springs), my car battery would last 2 years at the most.  Those 110 degree summer temps played havoc with them.  Same thing for my tires - 2 years tops!

WHOA! Hang on there a second Mike. What's this about you keeping a car for 2 years?

Yep - 1991 MERCEDES I bought in 1991 and kept until 1996!  Sure surprised me, too!  Put 68,000 miles on that car.

driver100

Is this the ugly Murano?


I am not a fan but it looks similar to many other cars....I thought it looks more like a Mazda than a Nissan.

boomchek

driver100 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:

imidazol97 said:

driver100 said:

The positive thing is: The guy is making a living even though he probably has a grade 2 education.

Honda in Worcester (Mass?)
http://worcester.craigslist.org/cto/4893904903.html

pandahi.com listing city not stated
http://www.pandahi.com/1042441063.html

eastern NC
http://eastnc.craigslist.org/cto/4893785874.html

Central Michigan
http://centralmich.craigslist.org/cto/4893851231.html

These are a few of the hits found searching
tania68larson@gmail.com

on google.com

Good investigative work. Most of his ads are very similar, and in one the spelling and grammar sounded like a different people. Maybe he acts like a moron so people think they can take advantage of him.

I PUERCHHASEDD this car DUEE TO how beautiful it is and Porwerr, got a GRREEAT deal on it but now it;s time to goRemote Start, white LEATHHER interior, SPLIT bench (seats FIIVEE), TTINNTED windows, chrome pkg, 32 GALOON fuel tank, short box, White in color.

He usually starts with saying he bought the car because he liked the looks so much. He always goes Remote Start whatever that means. All the cars seem to have white leather interiors though the interiors look black. He always mentions the --GALOON fuel tank...who cares how many gallons and what car has a 32 galoon tank? What are TTINTED windows? How does a Lexus have a "short box?

More questions than answers. His cars look like they have been painted over. How does he sell them in such different places?

The answer to how does he sell in such different places is that he doesn't. He gets you to wire him a "deposit" to hold the car and then disappears. There are no cars. He pulls pictures off the internet. Classic CL scam.

Thanks for explaining OF and BOOMCHECK.

I must be really naive thinking those ads were placed by someone who doesn't spell very well. Does CL have a way to report those phonies? That's one reason I would find it hard to buy something like a car on the internet from an indie guy.

Sending money would be crazy.

Yes there is a way to report these ads, or at least help them get removed. At the top of every Craigslist ad there is a little "prohibited" link. Click on that to flag the ad. If enough people flag the ad it will be automatically removed. You can do the same for bait and switch ads, ads with $1 price tag, multiple ads for same car, or ads with false key words (searching for something specific, when another unrelated car comes up).

Craigslist is ran by a handful of people and it's mostly user moderated, meaning it's up to the users to report bad ads as there isn't enough staff to monitor and screen through all of them. That's one of the reasons the site has remained mostly free and popular with such success.

driver100

stever said:

You can contact Craigslist, but I don't think they have a lot of warm bodies following up on the scammers. They are hiring though. Too bad about that whole "rent" thing.

Short on bodies is probably true, but it sounds like a great place to work. Maybe if I became a vegan and could get used to riding a bike to work I should apply.

driver100

The Rogue looks like a plainer Murano...might be a good thing!

driver100

boomchek said:

driver100 said:

oldfarmer50 said:

driver100 said:

imidazol97 said:

driver100 said:

The positive thing is: The guy is making a living even though he probably has a grade 2 education.

Honda in Worcester (Mass?)
http://worcester.craigslist.org/cto/4893904903.html

pandahi.com listing city not stated
http://www.pandahi.com/1042441063.html

eastern NC
http://eastnc.craigslist.org/cto/4893785874.html

Central Michigan
http://centralmich.craigslist.org/cto/4893851231.html

These are a few of the hits found searching
tania68larson@gmail.com

on google.com

Good investigative work. Most of his ads are very similar, and in one the spelling and grammar sounded like a different people. Maybe he acts like a moron so people think they can take advantage of him.

I PUERCHHASEDD this car DUEE TO how beautiful it is and Porwerr, got a GRREEAT deal on it but now it;s time to goRemote Start, white LEATHHER interior, SPLIT bench (seats FIIVEE), TTINNTED windows, chrome pkg, 32 GALOON fuel tank, short box, White in color.

He usually starts with saying he bought the car because he liked the looks so much. He always goes Remote Start whatever that means. All the cars seem to have white leather interiors though the interiors look black. He always mentions the --GALOON fuel tank...who cares how many gallons and what car has a 32 galoon tank? What are TTINTED windows? How does a Lexus have a "short box?

More questions than answers. His cars look like they have been painted over. How does he sell them in such different places?

The answer to how does he sell in such different places is that he doesn't. He gets you to wire him a "deposit" to hold the car and then disappears. There are no cars. He pulls pictures off the internet. Classic CL scam.

Thanks for explaining OF and BOOMCHECK.

I must be really naive thinking those ads were placed by someone who doesn't spell very well. Does CL have a way to report those phonies? That's one reason I would find it hard to buy something like a car on the internet from an indie guy.

Sending money would be crazy.

Yes there is a way to report these ads, or at least help them get removed. At the top of every Craigslist ad there is a little "prohibited" link. Click on that to flag the ad. If enough people flag the ad it will be automatically removed. You can do the same for bait and switch ads, ads with $1 price tag, multiple ads for same car, or ads with false key words (searching for something specific, when another unrelated car comes up).

Craigslist is ran by a handful of people and it's mostly user moderated, meaning it's up to the users to report bad ads as there isn't enough staff to monitor and screen through all of them. That's one of the reasons the site has remained mostly free and popular with such success.

Placing car ads and answering car ads for free is almost like asking for trouble. I think a better model would be to have advertisers pay $5 to place an ad, and then use a credit card etc to verify there is such a person. Someone selling a car wouldn't mind spending $5 to do it. Going through phony ads would just frustrate me and turn me off.

imidazol97

boomchek said:

The scammers go on websites like ebay, trader, craigslist, copy photos off ads, and repost them in different cities. .

In the past I had used a tool that looked for copies of pictures on the internet. I tried to find something like
that to see if I could find other copies of the Toyota picture in the scammer ad in other places and maybe locate the original person's legitimate ad from which the scammer swiped the picture. Found a couple of things
but they didn't work.

Anyone know of a utility to seek pictures that are duplicates on the net?

stever

TinEye, but it didn't find this image I posted on the forums not that long ago. Google has one I haven't played with before. No luck there either, but at least it gives you some alternates.

imidazol97

I found this while reading about the new units being ordered for Air Force Ones' replacements.

Historic SAM 26000 is shown landing at Dayton's Wright Field, part of Wright Patterson Air Force Base. The plane is shown landing, on the apron outside the Wright Field Hangar, and being pushed into its resting place inside.

The plane and some other presidential planes used to be open to tour but the tours ended with budget cuts for the Museum.

AT right down the page is the link with 3 local pictures from the National Air Force Museum and a total of 10 pictures.
Don't forget to click the arrow that says "Show captions" to see explanation of the other historic events.



Link to a page with 10 photos of Air Force One, SAM 26000

robr2

imidazol97 said:

boomchek said:

The scammers go on websites like ebay, trader, craigslist, copy photos off ads, and repost them in different cities. .

In the past I had used a tool that looked for copies of pictures on the internet. I tried to find something like
that to see if I could find other copies of the Toyota picture in the scammer ad in other places and maybe locate the original person's legitimate ad from which the scammer swiped the picture. Found a couple of things
but they didn't work.

Anyone know of a utility to seek pictures that are duplicates on the net?

Google Images

Go to google. click on word "images" on the upper right. Drag the picture you are searching for from one google tab to the google image search box.

robr2

driver100 said:

Speaking of ads I wonder about the Buick one. A young lady is looking for her friend and thinks her friend who is supposed to be in a new Buick is in an old Taurus. She jumps in and the guy behind the wheel is eating a submarine sandwich. Then she realizes her friend is on the other side of the road and she is surprised the Buick doesn't look like what she expected it to look like.

On one level, I get what they are trying to convey...Buicks don't look boring like they used to, but, for awhile I thought it was saying she thought her friends new Buick would look like an old Taurus!

They are doing that whole it's not your father's Buick thing.

What bothers me more is the she is standing right in front of the car. Beep the damn horn to get her attention all ready!!

explorerx4

I know someone who knew little about leasing and got a base Rogue for 3 years with many more miles paid for than they could ever hope to use.
After 2 years they got a lease pull ahead letter, so now they have a 2015.
I don't know much about it, other than it is the SV(better) model. Hopefully they went for a more appropriate mileage allowance, and maybe dodged a bullet.

stickguy

question for the group. anyone else running this site on Chrome? I use that on my laptop. works fine on every site but Edmunds. slower than dirt. takes forever for threads to load.

I just fired up IE and logged in, and the site moves much faster. But I have no desire to switch back to IE.

abacomike

stickguy said:

question for the group. anyone else running this site on Chrome? I use that on my laptop. works fine on every site but Edmunds. slower than dirt. takes forever for threads to load. I just fired up IE and logged in, and the site moves much faster. But I have no desire to switch back to IE.

I run Chrome on my PC and my iPhone 6, but it runs fine.  I do not use Explorer at all.

driver100

robr2 said:

driver100 said:

Speaking of ads I wonder about the Buick one. A young lady is looking for her friend and thinks her friend who is supposed to be in a new Buick is in an old Taurus. She jumps in and the guy behind the wheel is eating a submarine sandwich. Then she realizes her friend is on the other side of the road and she is surprised the Buick doesn't look like what she expected it to look like.

On one level, I get what they are trying to convey...Buicks don't look boring like they used to, but, for awhile I thought it was saying she thought her friends new Buick would look like an old Taurus!

They are doing that whole it's not your father's Buick thing.

What bothers me more is the she is standing right in front of the car. Beep the damn horn to get her attention all ready!!

That would make sense. Still, the first few times I saw the ad I thought does she think an old Taurus looks like a new Buick...doesn't say much about the new models.

robr2

stickguy said:

question for the group. anyone else running this site on Chrome? I use that on my laptop. works fine on every site but Edmunds. slower than dirt. takes forever for threads to load.

I just fired up IE and logged in, and the site moves much faster. But I have no desire to switch back to IE.

I'm running Chrome and it's horrible. It's much better on IE. I am having some other issues with Chrome not playing nice with Flash and Shockwave.

stickguy

I have had that flash/shockwave issue at times too, though I think mostly it gets bad when I am running MLB.tv, or very large game threads (on a baseball site). I wonder if the issues are related? I did check the version, and it says it is up to date.

robr2

My understanding is that Chrome has flash/shockwave built into it and then most PC's have stand alone versions of those Adobe products. Sometimes they run at the same time. I've tried a number of fixes but none of them work.

boomchek

I use Chrome too and have no issues. Actually works better than IE or Firefox as those give me trouble when uploading photos into posts.

graphicguy

robr2 said:

stickguy said:

question for the group. anyone else running this site on Chrome? I use that on my laptop. works fine on every site but Edmunds. slower than dirt. takes forever for threads to load.

I just fired up IE and logged in, and the site moves much faster. But I have no desire to switch back to IE.

I'm running Chrome and it's horrible. It's much better on IE. I am having some other issues with Chrome not playing nice with Flash and Shockwave.

Same here. I use Safari instead.

houdini1

I use Chrome and it seems to work better than the others for me.

qbrozen

I also use Chrome and the only thing that seems to cause a problem is all these damned ads. Once they are all loaded, its fine. We're talking maybe 5 secs a page, though. I haven't noticed any faster speeds with Safari.

nyccarguy

I notice the forums are much slower loading here at work (chrome, 4 year old Dell) then at home (Safari, 2 year old iMac).

stickguy

My iPad loads quick. Only my laptop running chrome seems brutally slow.

verdugo

Questions on leasing.

Hi all, could you please share your wisdom regarding leasing? I know some of you are pro's at it.

I'm picking up my new Grand Cherokee next week and I'm pretty sure I'm going to lease. I already negotiated a really good price and the dealer said the price will be the same whether I buy or lease. How do I ensure that I get a good lease?

Will the dealer share Money Factor and Residual info or do I have to find that out on my own? What are the things to watch out for?

I know that you should put as little (even zero) money down, but that's kind of it. I did a search on google and there was so much information, some of it contraditctory, that I thought I'd be better off asking here.

Thank you!

robr2

The dealer has to share the residual and money factor with you. The question you have to answer is are they bumping any? You can calculate a ballpark residual by looking at past residuals. You can figure out the interest rate by converting the money factor. Lastly, go to a credit union or bank and find out what they would lease the car for.

graphicguy

qbrozen said:

I also use Chrome and the only thing that seems to cause a problem is all these damned ads. Once they are all loaded, its fine. We're talking maybe 5 secs a page, though. I haven't noticed any faster speeds with Safari.

I'm able to block the ads. Not sure the powers that be at Edmunds thought this through. Irritate the people they rely on for the eyeballs to sell ads. On the side? Fine. In between posts? Pretty darned irritating.

nyccarguy

verdugo said:

Questions on leasing.

Hi all, could you please share your wisdom regarding leasing? I know some of you are pro's at it.

I'm picking up my new Grand Cherokee next week and I'm pretty sure I'm going to lease. I already negotiated a really good price and the dealer said the price will be the same whether I buy or lease. How do I ensure that I get a good lease?

Will the dealer share Money Factor and Residual info or do I have to find that out on my own? What are the things to watch out for?

I know that you should put as little (even zero) money down, but that's kind of it. I did a search on google and there was so much information, some of it contraditctory, that I thought I'd be better off asking here.

Thank you!

First, visit the 2015 Grand Cherokee Lease questions board here on edmunds. Or if you ask @Michaell or @kyfdx here, they will tell you. Just provide them with your model, options, motor, and how many miles per year you plan to drive (10K, 12K, or 15K). They will provide you with the base money factor and residual value.

Residuals are set by the bank. They CANNOT be touched.

However, as @robr2 said, dealers can bump up the money factor for extra back end profit. When they say not to put any money "down," that means not to pay any money up front for a "capitalized cost reduction." Always roll sales tax into the lease, do not pay up front.

You will have to pay your 1st month's payment, a bank fee (called an acquisition fee), & your DMV fees up front. Sometimes dealers can mark this up for extra profit too. Some people like to roll the bank fee into the lease.

Good luck & keep us posted!

Did I miss anything guys?

abacomike

verdugo said:

Questions on leasing.

Hi all, could you please share your wisdom regarding leasing? I know some of you are pro's at it.

I'm picking up my new Grand Cherokee next week and I'm pretty sure I'm going to lease. I already negotiated a really good price and the dealer said the price will be the same whether I buy or lease. How do I ensure that I get a good lease?

Will the dealer share Money Factor and Residual info or do I have to find that out on my own? What are the things to watch out for?

I know that you should put as little (even zero) money down, but that's kind of it. I did a search on google and there was so much information, some of it contraditctory, that I thought I'd be better off asking here.

Thank you!

Yes, Verdugo, they are required to provide you with the money factor as well as the residual. As for mark-ups on the money factor, that happens quite frequently. The only way you can go into the finance office prepared is to find out what the money factor is for a 36, 39 and 48 month lease for individuals who have superior credit (760+) assuming that is what your FICO score is.

I am sure there is a Forum site for leasing Jeep Grand Cherokees. Even a Forum like leasing any popular vehicle may be able to help you - the people from Edmunds who host these sites usually have access to other manufacturer's lease money-factors. Remember, the money factor is dependent upon:

FICO score
Term of Lease (number of months)
Miles per year allowed
AND, many offer a special money factor on MULTIPLE SECURITY DEPOSITS.

Under multiple security deposits, let's assume $550 is used as the security deposit factor. If you put down 10 security deposits ($5,500), it not only lowers the money factor, but at the end of the lease, you get your multiple security deposits back, in full ($5,500). The only way this benefits the lessee is when you can save enough money on your interest rate (money factor) to make it worthwhile. With today's interest rates, it is not always the best way to go.

So I suggest you visit a Forum here on Edmunds that deals with Chrysler (Jeep) and ask them for the specific money factors based upon the different lease terms (months) and respective residuals, and whether or not a multiple security deposit saves you enough on the money factor to make it worthwhile.

Michaell

abacomike said:

verdugo said:

Questions on leasing.

Hi all, could you please share your wisdom regarding leasing? I know some of you are pro's at it.

I'm picking up my new Grand Cherokee next week and I'm pretty sure I'm going to lease. I already negotiated a really good price and the dealer said the price will be the same whether I buy or lease. How do I ensure that I get a good lease?

Will the dealer share Money Factor and Residual info or do I have to find that out on my own? What are the things to watch out for?

I know that you should put as little (even zero) money down, but that's kind of it. I did a search on google and there was so much information, some of it contraditctory, that I thought I'd be better off asking here.

Thank you!

Yes, Verdugo, they are required to provide you with the money factor as well as the residual. As for mark-ups on the money factor, that happens quite frequently. The only way you can go into the finance office prepared is to find out what the money factor is for a 36, 39 and 48 month lease for individuals who have superior credit (760+) assuming that is what your FICO score is.

I am sure there is a Forum site for leasing Jeep Grand Cherokees. Even a Forum like leasing any popular vehicle may be able to help you - the people from Edmunds who host these sites usually have access to other manufacturer's lease money-factors. Remember, the money factor is dependent upon:

FICO score
Term of Lease (number of months)
Miles per year allowed
AND, many offer a special money factor on MULTIPLE SECURITY DEPOSITS.

Under multiple security deposits, let's assume $550 is used as the security deposit factor. If you put down 10 security deposits ($5,500), it not only lowers the money factor, but at the end of the lease, you get your multiple security deposits back, in full ($5,500). The only way this benefits the lessee is when you can save enough money on your interest rate (money factor) to make it worthwhile. With today's interest rates, it is not always the best way to go.

So I suggest you visit a Forum here on Edmunds that deals with Chrysler (Jeep) and ask them for the specific money factors based upon the different lease terms (months) and respective residuals, and whether or not a multiple security deposit saves you enough on the money factor to make it worthwhile.

@verdugo - head over to the "Jeep Grand Cherokee Leasing Questions" discussion and tell us the particular. I'll be happy to look up the relevant information for you.

One note - the money factors are so low from Chrysler that they don't offer an MSD program to lower your money factor.

verdugo

wow, I had high expectations based on my experience in this forum, but you guys exceeded them. TVM to all!

@Michaell, I've posted on that forum.

stever

Anyone else noticing that the forums are lagging for them?

ray80

stever said:

Anyone else noticing that the forums are lagging for them?

Not today so far

stever

We'll try harder.

abacomike

stever said:

Anyone else noticing that the forums are lagging for them?

No, I use Chrome for iPhone and it's running quite fast, in fact.  I was on the PC earlier and Crome ran the Forums fine.

verdugo

stever said:

Anyone else noticing that the forums are lagging for them?

Not here. I'm in IE11 and it's pretty fast.

stever

Thanks everyone. @Karen_CM‌ was having issues with Firefox and load times this morning but there's nothing we can put our fingers on.

ray80

stever said:

Thanks everyone. @Karen_CM‌ was having issues with Firefox and load times this morning but there's nothing we can put our fingers on.

Well as I said 'not today so far ' I should have said not today so far as I'm using IE, when I go home I'm likely to use Firefox where I have noticed some lag times for a while ( meaing for quite some time, just not annoying enough to complain)

Mr_Shiftright

More methamphetamine for the gerbils!

stever said:

We'll try harder.

Michaell

verdugo said:

wow, I had high expectations based on my experience in this forum, but you guys exceeded them. TVM to all!

@Michaell, I've posted on that forum.

And your answer is waiting for you ....

abacomike

Looks like winter is finally going to arrive in So. Florida.  Tonight, lows in the lower 40's and tomorrow highs in the mid 50's.  Tomorrow night, lows in the upper 30's.  Both nights will have wind chills 10 degrees colder.  Not used to these kinds of lows - could break some records and destroy some vegetable crops inland where temps expected in the upper 20's.

verdugo

Thank you again. Now comes the fun part -- making sure I don't get fleeced.

Michaell

verdugo said:

Thank you again. Now comes the fun part -- making sure I don't get fleeced.

Just negotiate the selling price like you would on a purchase and double check the numbers for any hidden fees - and make sure they don't inflate the MF on you.

nyccarguy

You guys who were in the car business (@boomchek still is) know just how tough it is to make a living. I made a few observations while sitting at a salesman's desk that had been cleaned out doing some paperwork of my own while waiting for my Dad's 2015 Tahoe to get fixed. For those of you who are concerned, yes the navigation now works (after a new nav antenna and new on star module) as it should have when my Dad took delivery back in December.

The dealership is a small, family owned & operated, stand alone Chevrolet dealership. They squeeze four cars in the showroom. A 2015 C7 Corvette Stingray (with a sold tag on the windshield), a 2015 4WD LTZ Suburban (with an MSRP almost equal to the Corvette's), a 2015 Cruze LS, & a fully loaded 4WD Equinox LTZ (no way this is a $40K vehicle). I got there at 10:30 am and was there until about 3:00 pm on a Friday. There was one guy there trying to buy a used Malibu. He obviously had some sort of credit issue. The rest of the day, I saw 2 other people walk into the showroom to look around.

After I was done with my work, I struck up a conversation with one of the sales guys. I asked him what the hardest part of selling cars is. He told me a few things:

People try to be slick and think we aren't going to find out they have credit issues. Or they think we aren't going to notice they haven't paid their property taxes (we have a personal property tax on cars in CT).

Morally he said the hardest part are that people come in to buy a car from him with credit issues, and are upside down on their current loan. He knows he shouldn't try to sell them a car, but if he discourages them, they'll take off to the next lot and buy a car there.

The amount of time it takes for inventory to turn over is staggering. Especially when it comes to used cars. At the end of December, my best friend traded in his 2011 LTZ 4WD Tahoe & his leased 2014 Wrangler Sahara Unlimited. His trades are literally 10s and the dealer in turn paid him top dollar for them. Still sitting there. My Dad traded in his 2011 LTZ Tahoe that is still on the lot. A friend of my best friend traded in his wife's 2012 or 2013 MB GLK 350 in December and it is still there.

driver100

Michaell said:

verdugo said:

Thank you again. Now comes the fun part -- making sure I don't get fleeced.

Just negotiate the selling price like you would on a purchase and double check the numbers for any hidden fees - and make sure they don't inflate the MF on you.

I have heard of cases lately where they charge you for all kinds of wear and tear items when you hand your leased car in. Anyway to guard against that happening?

Sandman6472

Firefly is loading just fine on both my laptop and new tablet. Quite fast actually.

The Sandman

nyccarguy

That all depends on the manufacturer. Luxury makes are more likely to care. The domestics are just happy to get the car back most of the time. My Mother-In-Law turned in her leased 2011 Ford Flex SEL AWD. She was over the miles and the car had badly balding tires. They took it back, no questions asked.

stickguy

I got sucked into a protection plan on my sonata (giving back some of my hard earned gains!). Largely for the tire and wheel protection, but it also coveredcwearcand tear items like dents. If I get a ding, bring it in and they fix it. Theoretically no worries about nonsense at trade in, since the plan covers it. But we shall see.

imidazol97

abacomike said:

Looks like winter is finally going to arrive in So. Florida.  Tonight, lows in the lower 40's and tomorrow highs in the mid 50's.  Tomorrow night, lows in the upper 30's.  Both nights will have wind chills 10 degrees colder.  Not used to these kinds of lows - could break some records and destroy some vegetable crops inland where temps expected in the upper 20's.

AND you are expecting sympathy from whom? Not from anyone in Midwest and Northeast, I hope.
Currently 9 deg F, low in this same area, and the high tomorrow in the same number range.

driver100

stick-

protection plan on my sonata (giving back some of my hard earned gains!). Largely for the tire and wheel protection, but it also coveredcwearcand tear items like dents. If I get a ding, bring it in and they fix it. Theoretically no worries about nonsense at trade in, since the plan covers it. But we shall see

Would you do that plan over again if you had the chance? They wanted me to pay $1800 to replace as many run flat tires including wheels as I needed on the 2012 bmw 535. I declined and saved myself $1800. They did a really scarry pitch though about how the wheel and tire could cost $800 to fix each time. I find that usually all the paperwork and aggravation to file a claim just wouldn't be worth it.

The Mercedes dealer suggested I get window tinting and seat protection and that was all. I declined and they didn't push it after that....the nice lady just looked very disappointed.....I kind of felt her kids were probably going to starve or not be able to have pasteurized milk because she didn't cut a deal. They know how to make you feel guilty..............