Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

fintail

When I leased my first new car, I dealt with an old timer salesman who I got along with - had been selling MBs for around 25 years and driving them even longer (also had a vintage 911). When I went in for the next lease, I dealt with him, and it was a piece of cake. Then things got difficult - Autonation bought out the family-owned dealership, and I think about half the staff jumped ship. The older guy I liked to deal with walked, and soon retired. I dealt with an older SM on my third deal (right at the end of the transition, I think), who walked about a week later. Today the place seems to have about 2 or 3 established salespeople, and a revolving door. I think the location is lucky it is in an affluent area where the cars probably sell themselves. No doubt some MBA drone types think that kind of turnover is fine, but they might not be right.

cdnpinhead said:

I very much enjoy the notion of continuing to deal with people who have treated me well in the past. It's a lost concept in the car business, at least in the west.

fintail

They'll probably sell out, I think it was AZ who had a sad turnout even with most of the seats off limits.

Michaell said:

I think 5000 can attend Avs games.

abacomike

fintail said:

When I leased my first new car, I dealt with an old timer salesman who I got along with - had been selling MBs for around 25 years and driving them even longer (also had a vintage 911). When I went in for the next lease, I dealt with him, and it was a piece of cake. Then things got difficult - Autonation bought out the family-owned dealership, and I think about half the staff jumped ship. The older guy I liked to deal with walked, and soon retired. I dealt with an older SM on my third deal (right at the end of the transition, I think), who walked about a week later. Today the place seems to have about 2 or 3 established salespeople, and a revolving door. I think the location is lucky it is in an affluent area where the cars probably sell themselves. No doubt some MBA drone types think that kind of turnover is fine, but they might not be right.

cdnpinhead said:

I very much enjoy the notion of continuing to deal with people who have treated me well in the past. It's a lost concept in the car business, at least in the west.

Auto Nation owns 6 Mercedes dealerships here in the Miami/Ft. Lauderdale/Palm Beach area which makes up 85% of the market. They are not easy to deal with because of the tight control they have over each dealership.

If you are trading a car, once it’s appraised at one of their dealerships, the remaining 5 dealerships won’t/can’t change the appraisal - it’s in their computer system.

Remember, it’s not “WHO” owns the dealership, but rather “WHO” you are dealing with - if you have a good relationship with the sales associate or the sales manager you are working with, the experience can be relaxed and trouble-free.

I used to buy most of my cars from Delray, but when they changed management at that dealership, I no longer enjoyed a good relationship with the personnel there. I bought one car at Palm Beach, but it was a long trip up there for me in order to take advantage of their services.

I am not particularly pleased with my current dealership personnel, but they provide free car washes which saves me quite a bit every year. This will most likely be my last Mercedes - perhaps my last car for that matter.

imidazol97

I got the Cruze we'd bought for our son when he first started working so he'd have remote start to warm the car up in the winter. He paid us for it. He asked if we wanted it back and I had always taken good care of it, faults and all, hoping to have it back. I'm probably as happy with the Cruze with leather seats and quiet ride as I would have been if I'd gotten an Elantra.

But Got a paint chip and slight ding on passenger door already. It's not a new car, but geeze, couldn't the door dingers at least wait till I'd had it 2 weeks? I park in handicapped if it's not the ones closest to the doors just because they're usually wider and that helps reduce door dings. I wonder if it was a grocery cart ding.

Not my car

snakeweasel

I'm interested but I think the price is a bit high, do you think they might come down a little?

https://www.flagchevrolet.com/inventory/new-2021-chevrolet-tahoe-premier-four-wheel-drive-suv-1gnskskt3mr282567/

stickguy

steep ADM. But that lease price is really good based on that cap cost!

but in reality, almost $1,000/month lease? For a Tahoe? I could never do that.

ab348

stickguy said:

steep ADM. But that lease price is really good based on that cap cost!

but in reality, almost $1,000/month lease? For a Tahoe? I could never do that.

Must be because it has the rare diesel engine. I would try to talk them down a few hundred thou on that ADM though.

omarman

You gotta like those lease terms though. Zero down for 36 months and monthly payment only .141633436 % of selling flag price.

fintail

Seattle area isn't much different, Autonation has a stranglehold, too. Not a literal monopoly, but you might have to go out of your way to avoid them, if you're not a fan. From what I saw at the old MB dealer anyway, the employees weren't too thrilled. My latest deal was under Autonation, no real issues - negotiation was tough until the car aged out on the lot, service seems to still be OK.

I think the MB dealers here in the inland empire are at least under family ownership groups, maybe no standalones though. Still not sure if I will buy out this car or not, if I don't, another MB will likely replace it, maybe not a new one though.

abacomike said:

Auto Nation owns 6 Mercedes dealerships here in the Miami/Ft. Lauderdale/Palm Beach area which makes up 85% of the market. They are not easy to deal with because of the tight control they have over each dealership.

If you are trading a car, once it’s appraised at one of their dealerships, the remaining 5 dealerships won’t/can’t change the appraisal - it’s in their computer system.

Remember, it’s not “WHO” owns the dealership, but rather “WHO” you are dealing with - if you have a good relationship with the sales associate or the sales manager you are working with, the experience can be relaxed and trouble-free.

I used to buy most of my cars from Delray, but when they changed management at that dealership, I no longer enjoyed a good relationship with the personnel there. I bought one car at Palm Beach, but it was a long trip up there for me in order to take advantage of their services.

I am not particularly pleased with my current dealership personnel, but they provide free car washes which saves me quite a bit every year. This will most likely be my last Mercedes - perhaps my last car for that matter.

mlevine

abacomike,
I have a hard time in South Florida with the MB dealerships. The one manager at Palm Beach I regularly dealt with moved back to up state NY. Recently in December was looking for a MB, but prices out of control. I have leased 7 vehicles from them in the past 12 years. No loyalty. Delray is even worse. The problem here is they have a captive audience willing to pay ridiculous prices.

jmonroe1

snakeweasel said:

I'm interested but I think the price is a bit high, do you think they might come down a little?

https://www.flagchevrolet.com/inventory/new-2021-chevrolet-tahoe-premier-four-wheel-drive-suv-1gnskskt3mr282567/

Well, you know what we say in here...”if you don’t ask you don’t get” but you’d be doing really well just to get them down to MSRP.

jmonroe

abacomike

mlevine said:

abacomike,
I have a hard time in South Florida with the MB dealerships. The one manager at Palm Beach I regularly dealt with moved back to up state NY. Recently in December was looking for a MB, but prices out of control. I have leased 7 vehicles from them in the past 12 years. No loyalty. Delray is even worse. The problem here is they have a captive audience willing to pay ridiculous prices.

You should come to me for assistance if buying a Mercedes. I have many people in the business down here who know me when I was a manager at Infiniti. I usually get 10%+ off MSRP on a Mercedes. I would be more than happy to help you out.🤓😜

oldfarmer50

imidazol97 said:

I got the Cruze we'd bought for our son when he first started working so he'd have remote start to warm the car up in the winter. He paid us for it. He asked if we wanted it back and I had always taken good care of it, faults and all, hoping to have it back. I'm probably as happy with the Cruze with leather seats and quiet ride as I would have been if I'd gotten an Elantra.

But Got a paint chip and slight ding on passenger door already. It's not a new car, but geeze, couldn't the door dingers at least wait till I'd had it 2 weeks? I park in handicapped if it's not the ones closest to the doors just because they're usually wider and that helps reduce door dings. I wonder if it was a grocery cart ding.

Not my car

Looks like a cart. Looks like somebody gave it a good shove.

oldfarmer50

snakeweasel said:

I'm interested but I think the price is a bit high, do you think they might come down a little?

https://www.flagchevrolet.com/inventory/new-2021-chevrolet-tahoe-premier-four-wheel-drive-suv-1gnskskt3mr282567/

That’s the worst ADM I’ve ever seen.

mlevine

abacomike,
Sounds like a good idea. My lease is up in September, but could due pull ahead in a few months. I am waiting for inventory to pick up and money factor to improve. Will definitely let you know when I am looking again.

nyccarguy

stickguy said:

steep ADM. But that lease price is really good based on that cap cost!

but in reality, almost $1,000/month lease? For a Tahoe? I could never do that.

That’s what they go for when you lease them. It’s crazy.

driver100

snakeweasel said:

I'm interested but I think the price is a bit high, do you think they might come down a little?

https://www.flagchevrolet.com/inventory/new-2021-chevrolet-tahoe-premier-four-wheel-drive-suv-1gnskskt3mr282567/

I would definitely want 10% off the Flag price or I'd be walking out the door.

abacomike

mlevine said:

abacomike,
Sounds like a good idea. My lease is up in September, but could due pull ahead in a few months. I am waiting for inventory to pick up and money factor to improve. Will definitely let you know when I am looking again.

Don’t hesitate to use me and my experiences - it would be a pleasure.

laurasdada

Costco PUG $2.72/gal. Up .10 from a week ago.
Does anyone know if PHEV are more expensive to insure than their ICE counterparts?

abacomike

laurasdada said:

Costco PUG $2.72/gal. Up .10 from a week ago.
Does anyone know if PHEV are more expensive to insure than their ICE counterparts?

$2.83 for PUG here at my Costco, up 14 cents a gallon since the end of February.

28firefighter

$3.39 for premium at Costco today here in Western WA.

stickguy

gas companies were just waiting for a chance to jack up the prices and I guess!

fintail

Per gasbuddy it is $2.95 at the nearest Costco here. That's up about 30-40 cents from what I recall a few months ago.

28firefighter said:

$3.39 for premium at Costco today here in Western WA.

mlevine

BJS gas on Saturday was $3.01 for premium.

driver100

Stop whining....gas here is equivalent to $3.90 for RUG!

graphicguy

My Acura dealership has the same sales staff over the last 15-20 years. My original sales person for my original TL purchase back in ‘03 is now the GM. The sales person I deal with now at that dealership has been there since the dealership began, which was when Honda first started the brand in North America.

I think I’ve only seen one or two sales staff leave over the years. I think the Service Manger has been there over 15 years, too.

My local BMW dealership (around the corner from the sister to the poor Chevy dealership) is the same way. I’ve bought 3 BMWs over the years, starting in the late ‘80s. Bought them all from the same sales person there. The GM, who always would come out to chat whenever I was there to buy or service my cars, just retired.

I’ve had my Kia a year and about 3 months. My original sales person is long gone. I don’t go there much. But, I don’t recognize one person who was there when I originally bought the Stinger. That kind of turnover can’t be good and sort of defines the brand, which I think is unfair, given they are really well built and reliable cars (aside from engine fire recalls).

graphicguy

I believe this is the last hurrah for gasoline companies. Demand will drop about 2%/year (according to BP, Exxon and Dutch Petroleum-Shell) in the near term and that rate will accelerate in the next 3-7 years. And, that projection is even made as the world comes out of the Global Recession caused by COVID.

As we’ve seen over the decades, they don’t need much, if any reason, to jack up prices. I think they’re shooting themselves in the foot by doing so, though.

Read an article in the WSJ a little while ago stating Dutch Petroleum is one of the big refineries that’s diversifying into wind and solar, in addition to adding electric stations, with new areas where customers can dine and relax while charging their vehicles. The rest will follow suit.

snakeweasel

driver100 said:

Stop whining....gas here is equivalent to $3.90 for RUG!

RUG is $3.099 near me although there are a few places where it's $2.999. In some areas PUG is getting close to $4.00.

kyfdx

laurasdada said:

Costco PUG $2.72/gal. Up .10 from a week ago.
Does anyone know if PHEV are more expensive to insure than their ICE counterparts?

No, but call your agent, get a quote for both, then get back to us.

stickguy

If the US has done anything well over the years, it’s having people figure out the future and make it happen. Not the majority that just complain about SNY change. The smart ones that are now absurdly rich.

pensfan83

graphicguy said:

My Acura dealership has the same sales staff over the last 15-20 years. My original sales person for my original TL purchase back in ‘03 is now the GM. The sales person I deal with now at that dealership has been there since the dealership began, which was when Honda first started the brand in North America.

I think I’ve only seen one or two sales staff leave over the years. I think the Service Manger has been there over 15 years, too.

My local BMW dealership (around the corner from the sister to the poor Chevy dealership) is the same way. I’ve bought 3 BMWs over the years, starting in the late ‘80s. Bought them all from the same sales person there. The GM, who always would come out to chat whenever I was there to buy or service my cars, just retired.

I’ve had my Kia a year and about 3 months. My original sales person is long gone. I don’t go there much. But, I don’t recognize one person who was there when I originally bought the Stinger. That kind of turnover can’t be good and sort of defines the brand, which I think is unfair, given they are really well built and reliable cars (aside from engine fire recalls).

For years the Ford dealer my parents bought numerous cars from were a family owned operation, which was reflected in the stability of the dealer staff from sales to service. In the early 00's it was sold to a local dealer group and that's when things slowly began to go down hill. People either left, retired, or were presumably fired. My parents have bought 4 cars from them since 2006, none from the same salesperson. Their management team was, at last glance, comprised of folks on the younger side and one would assume they would embrace the digital age of buying cars but nope, they've time warped back to the 1980's with their tactics.

Michaell

pensfan83 said:

graphicguy said:

My Acura dealership has the same sales staff over the last 15-20 years. My original sales person for my original TL purchase back in ‘03 is now the GM. The sales person I deal with now at that dealership has been there since the dealership began, which was when Honda first started the brand in North America.

I think I’ve only seen one or two sales staff leave over the years. I think the Service Manger has been there over 15 years, too.

My local BMW dealership (around the corner from the sister to the poor Chevy dealership) is the same way. I’ve bought 3 BMWs over the years, starting in the late ‘80s. Bought them all from the same sales person there. The GM, who always would come out to chat whenever I was there to buy or service my cars, just retired.

I’ve had my Kia a year and about 3 months. My original sales person is long gone. I don’t go there much. But, I don’t recognize one person who was there when I originally bought the Stinger. That kind of turnover can’t be good and sort of defines the brand, which I think is unfair, given they are really well built and reliable cars (aside from engine fire recalls).

For years the Ford dealer my parents bought numerous cars from were a family owned operation, which was reflected in the stability of the dealer staff from sales to service. In the early 00's it was sold to a local dealer group and that's when things slowly began to go down hill. People either left, retired, or were presumably fired. My parents have bought 4 cars from them since 2006, none from the same salesperson. Their management team was, at last glance, comprised of folks on the younger side and one would assume they would embrace the digital age of buying cars but nope, they've time warped back to the 1980's with their tactics.

The VW dealer where I leased my Jetta had a change of management, and tactics, as well - and, not for the better.

Seems that many of the dealers our members work with are still stuck in the 80's and 90's.

jmonroe1

graphicguy said:

I believe this is the last hurrah for gasoline companies. Demand will drop about 2%/year (according to BP, Exxon and Dutch Petroleum-Shell) in the near term and that rate will accelerate in the next 3-7 years. And, that projection is even made as the world comes out of the Global Recession caused by COVID.

As we’ve seen over the decades, they don’t need much, if any reason, to jack up prices. I think they’re shouting themselves in the foot by doing so, though.

Read an article in the WSJ a little while ago stating Dutch Petroleum is one of the big refineries that’s diversifying into wind and solar, in addition to adding electric stations, with new areas where customers can dine and relax while charging their vehicles. The rest will follow suit.

Kinda like whistling past the graveyard but not really. That 2% drop is more than likely just for gas and oil for cars and trucks. There are a lot of items made from refined oil. The oil companies are not so much oil companies as they are energy companies. They’ve been into that for quite some time now. They’ve been into gas and fracking and are only getting into that more and more since they see the hand writing on the wall. Unfortunately, like banks, they are too big to fail. Government’s around the globe won’t let that happen. Too many jobs and the need for that product is at stake for that to happen.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t like them either and what I just said doesn’t mean we should roll over and accept it. Continued competition is still the way to go.

If there was ever an industry that if they could figure out a way to harness the power from the Sun and then sell it to the people, it’s the oil companies.

jmonroe

dino001

Michaell said:

The VW dealer where I leased my Jetta had a change of management, and tactics, as well - and, not for the better.
Seems that many of the dealers our members work with are still stuck in the 80's and 90's.

Is it possible that the "old school" is actually coming back and reasserting itself after a decade of the internet "honeymoon"? Store chain consolidations left fewer players overall, largest of them are publicly traded, which basically means relentless push for financial metrics improvement. It looks to me like the industry fought back the internet information and went much deeper "underground" in terms of its real cost structure. All these "research" sites, including this one, offer less truly useful information and focus on "leads". It is much more clear who is paying their bills than it was say 10 years ago. To me they all turned into paid ad message boards, so how would they provide any useful information on how to "beat" the dealer, if the dealer plays such games? Another interesting subject would be consolidation around Cox Automotive that has multiple businesses with consumer interface (Autotrader, KBB, etc.), but digging into it shows their main focus is increasing dealership's profitability not helping consumer (they say as much). Just look below.

There are also some Youtube "lessons" and demonstration for sales staff, basically focusing on immediate "removing objections" and perpetuating all this BS. The customer is clearly seen there as a complete stooge, even if those words are not said openly. These people never talk about serving customer's actual needs, God save any proper product suitability analysis, it's only about advancing salesperson's and store's agenda of "buying today". It's really nauseating to listen these people and their "training".

pensfan83

dino001 said:

Michaell said:

The VW dealer where I leased my Jetta had a change of management, and tactics, as well - and, not for the better.
Seems that many of the dealers our members work with are still stuck in the 80's and 90's.

Is it possible that the "old school" is actually coming back and reasserting itself after a decade of the internet? Store chain consolidations left fewer players overall, largest of them are publicly traded, which basically means relentless push for financial metrics improvement. It looks to me like the industry fought back the internet information and went much deeper "underground" in terms of its real cost structure. All these sites, including this one, offer less truly useful information and focus on "leads". It is much more clear who is paying their bills than it was say 10 years ago.

My Acura dealer is Lithia owned and they've twice beat out the family owned and managed Acura dealer whose Google and Dealerrater ratings belie their behavior on the sales side. It may not always work out that way but sometimes it is less about who the beneficial owner is and more about the sales culture.

dino001

This is possible, but there are many ways to extract more money from you as a customer. It's been known that big guys make a lot of money in F&I office rather than on the floor. Florida market is also just terrible when it comes to price "hiding", aka fees and the charge there is led by the biggest guys. They blew past $1000 in last couple of years. They all have "low prices" until you add all the fees and that's before you even go to F&I offices.

abacomike

dino001 said:

This is possible, but there are many ways to extract more money from you as a customer. It's been known that big guys make a lot of money in F&I office rather than on the floor. Florida market is also just terrible when it comes to price "hiding", aka fees and the charge there is led by the biggest guys. They blew past $1000 in last couple of years. They all have "low prices" until you add all the fees and that's before you even go to F&I offices.

Dino, I know you have a quieter, more reserved side to your personality than you exhibit in some of your posts. We all know the dealer fees exist here in Florida, but we all know how to avoid paying them by offering “out-the-door” offers.

My dealer charges $899, but I offered 10% off MSRP + USAA fleet money + trunk money less dealer fees - and after 2 trips back and forth, they accepted my offer. I didn’t get upset that there dealer fees are outrageous - I just worked around it!😜🤪🤓

dino001

We all know OTD price, but these charades and games with fees, protection packages, phoney additions, ADM stickers are just tedious and tiresome. There was a moment when it felt they'd go away, but it just feels like they're now intensifying. Latest low inventories (first corona, now chip shortage) don't help the matter, but that's just transitory. My point is a bit larger - seems like information transparency revolution that came with the internet is over and dealers found new ways to obscure and misdirect, because they never wanted to make it really transparent. What bothers me is the mindset itself, not the actual prices or fees. Mind games to convince you that you're paying less than you really are.

snakeweasel

jmonroe1 said:

graphicguy said:

I believe this is the last hurrah for gasoline companies. Demand will drop about 2%/year (according to BP, Exxon and Dutch Petroleum-Shell) in the near term and that rate will accelerate in the next 3-7 years. And, that projection is even made as the world comes out of the Global Recession caused by COVID.

As we’ve seen over the decades, they don’t need much, if any reason, to jack up prices. I think they’re shouting themselves in the foot by doing so, though.

Read an article in the WSJ a little while ago stating Dutch Petroleum is one of the big refineries that’s diversifying into wind and solar, in addition to adding electric stations, with new areas where customers can dine and relax while charging their vehicles. The rest will follow suit.

Kinda like whistling past the graveyard but not really. That 2% drop is more than likely just for gas and oil for cars and trucks. There are a lot of items made from refined oil. The oil companies are not so much oil companies as they are energy companies. They’ve been into that for quite some time now. They’ve been into gas and fracking and are only getting into that more and more since they see the hand writing on the wall. Unfortunately, like banks, they are too big to fail. Government’s around the globe won’t let that happen. Too many jobs and the need for that product is at stake for that to happen.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t like them either and what I just said doesn’t mean we should roll over and accept it. Continued competition is still the way to go.

If there was ever an industry that if they could figure out a way to harness the power from the Sun and then sell it to the people, it’s the oil companies.

jmonroe

Yeah if they could only find a way to harness the power of the sun,

dino001

And:
1. Make money on it without subsidies
2. Provide power at night, winter storm and during large demand increase.
3. Not generate landfill waste full of cadmium and other 'good stuff" after the panels are spent and decommissioned.

Michaell

dino001 said:

We all know OTD price, but these charades and games with fees, protection packages, phoney additions, ADM stickers are just tedious and tiresome. There was a moment when it felt they'd go away, but it just feels like they're now intensifying. Latest low inventories (first corona, now chip shortage) don't help the matter, but that's just transitory. My point is a bit larger - seems like information transparency revolution that came with the internet is over and dealers found new ways to obscure and misdirect, because they never wanted to make it really transparent. What bothers me is the mindset itself, not the actual prices or fees. Mind games to convince you that you're paying less than you really are.

The posts I see from members is the various lease threads bear this out. Seems to be more hiking of the money factors than in the past, and less transparency.

Makes me somewhat glad I'm not in the market for a new (or used) car. I'll continue to live vicariously through all of you, here!

venture

Just filled up a few minutes ago:

Regular $3.10
Plus $3.40
Premium $3.80

That's US dollars.

driver100

dino001 said:

We all know OTD price, but these charades and games with fees, protection packages, phoney additions, ADM stickers are just tedious and tiresome.

It's like most things these days....they give it to you for free or a low price, hook you, then figure out how to make money off of you.
Amazon sold books for half price to get people used to the idea.
Google offers free internet search engine....but now they can sell advertising targeted at you
Newspapers were free at first....now they figured out a way to get you to subscribe.
Walmart online in Canada offers to ship your first order with no shipping charge
Car dealers posted lowest prices on the internet to drive additional sales....but now everyone does it so they
have to get you in the door and then add on additional charges.

It is the age of the loss leader......that gets you hooked.

tjc78

Michaell said:

dino001 said:

We all know OTD price, but these charades and games with fees, protection packages, phoney additions, ADM stickers are just tedious and tiresome. There was a moment when it felt they'd go away, but it just feels like they're now intensifying. Latest low inventories (first corona, now chip shortage) don't help the matter, but that's just transitory. My point is a bit larger - seems like information transparency revolution that came with the internet is over and dealers found new ways to obscure and misdirect, because they never wanted to make it really transparent. What bothers me is the mindset itself, not the actual prices or fees. Mind games to convince you that you're paying less than you really are.

The posts I see from members is the various lease threads bear this out. Seems to be more hiking of the money factors than in the past, and less transparency.

Makes me somewhat glad I'm not in the market for a new (or used) car. I'll continue to live vicariously through all of you, here!

I think what has happened with leases is that many websites and videos explain that the sales price is negotiable on a lease. So the under-educated customer goes in negotiating the sales price only to shafted on the back end not knowing what the buy-rate MF is.

Michaell

tjc78 said:

Michaell said:

dino001 said:

We all know OTD price, but these charades and games with fees, protection packages, phoney additions, ADM stickers are just tedious and tiresome. There was a moment when it felt they'd go away, but it just feels like they're now intensifying. Latest low inventories (first corona, now chip shortage) don't help the matter, but that's just transitory. My point is a bit larger - seems like information transparency revolution that came with the internet is over and dealers found new ways to obscure and misdirect, because they never wanted to make it really transparent. What bothers me is the mindset itself, not the actual prices or fees. Mind games to convince you that you're paying less than you really are.

The posts I see from members is the various lease threads bear this out. Seems to be more hiking of the money factors than in the past, and less transparency.

Makes me somewhat glad I'm not in the market for a new (or used) car. I'll continue to live vicariously through all of you, here!

I think what has happened with leases is that many websites and videos explain that the sales price is negotiable on a lease. So the under-educated customer goes in negotiating the sales price only to shafted on the back end not knowing what the buy-rate MF is.

Pretty much.

But @kyfdx and I field a few hundred questions a day from people looking for the MF, residual and incentives, and will occasionally ask us for their advice on a quote.

We simply try to level the playing field, but with short inventory, the advantage lies with the dealers.

driver100

Don't buy a car from this dealer;

dino001

Michaell said:

We simply try to level the playing field, but with short inventory, the advantage lies with the dealers.

Low inventory means higher prices, fair is fair. However, when market balance is back, or worse, when the advantage goes back toward the consumer due to overproduction, demand destruction, or other situations, all I want is the salesmen not show me pictures of their kids to get my sympathy. They surely didn't care about their
customers' kids when asking these elevated prices...

Michaell

dino001 said:

Michaell said:

We simply try to level the playing field, but with short inventory, the advantage lies with the dealers.

Low inventory means higher prices, fair is fair. However, when market balance is back, or worse, when the advantage goes back toward the consumer due to overproduction, demand destruction, or other situations, all I want is the salesmen not show me pictures of their kids to get my sympathy. They surely didn't care about their
customers' kids when asking these elevated prices...

Right - this is a business transaction, I'm not there to make a friend. I may not get everything I want, and I hope that the dealer doesn't get everything they want. That's the spirit of negotiation.

tjc78

Michaell said:

tjc78 said:

Michaell said:

dino001 said:

We all know OTD price, but these charades and games with fees, protection packages, phoney additions, ADM stickers are just tedious and tiresome. There was a moment when it felt they'd go away, but it just feels like they're now intensifying. Latest low inventories (first corona, now chip shortage) don't help the matter, but that's just transitory. My point is a bit larger - seems like information transparency revolution that came with the internet is over and dealers found new ways to obscure and misdirect, because they never wanted to make it really transparent. What bothers me is the mindset itself, not the actual prices or fees. Mind games to convince you that you're paying less than you really are.

The posts I see from members is the various lease threads bear this out. Seems to be more hiking of the money factors than in the past, and less transparency.

Makes me somewhat glad I'm not in the market for a new (or used) car. I'll continue to live vicariously through all of you, here!

I think what has happened with leases is that many websites and videos explain that the sales price is negotiable on a lease. So the under-educated customer goes in negotiating the sales price only to shafted on the back end not knowing what the buy-rate MF is.

Pretty much.

But @kyfdx and I field a few hundred questions a day from people looking for the MF, residual and incentives, and will occasionally ask us for their advice on a quote.

We simply try to level the playing field, but with short inventory, the advantage lies with the dealers.

The thing that really aggravates me when negotiating a lease is when the dealer simply won’t give into the fact you do actually know what you are talking about. It’s like their day is ruined they can’t play the smoke and mirrors game. Math is math, except for car dealers.

It’s also why I will never negotiate with them in person ever again. Test drive, get quote (laugh) and then go to work emailing dealers and/or seeing if a broker has a better deal.

The days of playing ball in their stadium is over.

pensfan83

tjc78 said:

Michaell said:

tjc78 said:

Michaell said:

dino001 said:

We all know OTD price, but these charades and games with fees, protection packages, phoney additions, ADM stickers are just tedious and tiresome. There was a moment when it felt they'd go away, but it just feels like they're now intensifying. Latest low inventories (first corona, now chip shortage) don't help the matter, but that's just transitory. My point is a bit larger - seems like information transparency revolution that came with the internet is over and dealers found new ways to obscure and misdirect, because they never wanted to make it really transparent. What bothers me is the mindset itself, not the actual prices or fees. Mind games to convince you that you're paying less than you really are.

The posts I see from members is the various lease threads bear this out. Seems to be more hiking of the money factors than in the past, and less transparency.

Makes me somewhat glad I'm not in the market for a new (or used) car. I'll continue to live vicariously through all of you, here!

I think what has happened with leases is that many websites and videos explain that the sales price is negotiable on a lease. So the under-educated customer goes in negotiating the sales price only to shafted on the back end not knowing what the buy-rate MF is.

Pretty much.

But @kyfdx and I field a few hundred questions a day from people looking for the MF, residual and incentives, and will occasionally ask us for their advice on a quote.

We simply try to level the playing field, but with short inventory, the advantage lies with the dealers.

The thing that really aggravates me when negotiating a lease is when the dealer simply won’t give into the fact you do actually know what you are talking about. It’s like their day is ruined they can’t play the smoke and mirrors game. Math is math, except for car dealers.

It’s also why I will never negotiate with them in person ever again. Test drive, get quote (laugh) and then go to work emailing dealers and/or seeing if a broker has a better deal.

The days of playing ball in their stadium is over.

SM: "I've giving you a discount of $3,300 and you want another $3,300? How are you figuring that's possible?
ME: "There's $3,300 in manufacturer money available so the selling price is actually MSRP. And the dealer discount I'm asking for is ~6.5% and reasonable based on my research."
SM: "...."