Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

Michaell

pensfan83 said:

tjc78 said:

Michaell said:

tjc78 said:

Michaell said:

dino001 said:

We all know OTD price, but these charades and games with fees, protection packages, phoney additions, ADM stickers are just tedious and tiresome. There was a moment when it felt they'd go away, but it just feels like they're now intensifying. Latest low inventories (first corona, now chip shortage) don't help the matter, but that's just transitory. My point is a bit larger - seems like information transparency revolution that came with the internet is over and dealers found new ways to obscure and misdirect, because they never wanted to make it really transparent. What bothers me is the mindset itself, not the actual prices or fees. Mind games to convince you that you're paying less than you really are.

The posts I see from members is the various lease threads bear this out. Seems to be more hiking of the money factors than in the past, and less transparency.

Makes me somewhat glad I'm not in the market for a new (or used) car. I'll continue to live vicariously through all of you, here!

I think what has happened with leases is that many websites and videos explain that the sales price is negotiable on a lease. So the under-educated customer goes in negotiating the sales price only to shafted on the back end not knowing what the buy-rate MF is.

Pretty much.

But @kyfdx and I field a few hundred questions a day from people looking for the MF, residual and incentives, and will occasionally ask us for their advice on a quote.

We simply try to level the playing field, but with short inventory, the advantage lies with the dealers.

The thing that really aggravates me when negotiating a lease is when the dealer simply won’t give into the fact you do actually know what you are talking about. It’s like their day is ruined they can’t play the smoke and mirrors game. Math is math, except for car dealers.

It’s also why I will never negotiate with them in person ever again. Test drive, get quote (laugh) and then go to work emailing dealers and/or seeing if a broker has a better deal.

The days of playing ball in their stadium is over.

SM: "I've giving you a discount of $3,300 and you want another $3,300? How are you figuring that's possible?
ME: "There's $3,300 in manufacturer money available so the selling price is actually MSRP. And the dealer discount I'm asking for is ~6.5% and reasonable based on my research."
SM: "...."

I was with @breld at the MINI dealer and witnessed an exact duplicate of that conversation. Except the sales dude insisted that the $1000 was the dealer discount - even after we went to the mini website (prominently displayed on the big screen TV in the sales cube) and showed him the incentive.

pensfan83

Michaell said:

pensfan83 said:

tjc78 said:

Michaell said:

tjc78 said:

Michaell said:

dino001 said:

We all know OTD price, but these charades and games with fees, protection packages, phoney additions, ADM stickers are just tedious and tiresome. There was a moment when it felt they'd go away, but it just feels like they're now intensifying. Latest low inventories (first corona, now chip shortage) don't help the matter, but that's just transitory. My point is a bit larger - seems like information transparency revolution that came with the internet is over and dealers found new ways to obscure and misdirect, because they never wanted to make it really transparent. What bothers me is the mindset itself, not the actual prices or fees. Mind games to convince you that you're paying less than you really are.

The posts I see from members is the various lease threads bear this out. Seems to be more hiking of the money factors than in the past, and less transparency.

Makes me somewhat glad I'm not in the market for a new (or used) car. I'll continue to live vicariously through all of you, here!

I think what has happened with leases is that many websites and videos explain that the sales price is negotiable on a lease. So the under-educated customer goes in negotiating the sales price only to shafted on the back end not knowing what the buy-rate MF is.

Pretty much.

But @kyfdx and I field a few hundred questions a day from people looking for the MF, residual and incentives, and will occasionally ask us for their advice on a quote.

We simply try to level the playing field, but with short inventory, the advantage lies with the dealers.

The thing that really aggravates me when negotiating a lease is when the dealer simply won’t give into the fact you do actually know what you are talking about. It’s like their day is ruined they can’t play the smoke and mirrors game. Math is math, except for car dealers.

It’s also why I will never negotiate with them in person ever again. Test drive, get quote (laugh) and then go to work emailing dealers and/or seeing if a broker has a better deal.

The days of playing ball in their stadium is over.

SM: "I've giving you a discount of $3,300 and you want another $3,300? How are you figuring that's possible?
ME: "There's $3,300 in manufacturer money available so the selling price is actually MSRP. And the dealer discount I'm asking for is ~6.5% and reasonable based on my research."
SM: "...."

I was with @breld at the MINI dealer and witnessed an exact duplicate of that conversation. Except the sales dude insisted that the $1000 was the dealer discount - even after we went to the mini website (prominently displayed on the big screen TV in the sales cube) and showed him the incentive.

When I got the quote from the sales person it was clear what they were doing so I thanked the sales person for taking the time to do a test drive, and walked out. If that's where a dealer wants to start negotiations there's next to no chance of a deal and negotiating down from their perch is a waste of my time and theirs. The conversation above happened in the parking lot when the SM saw me walk out.

ab348

Just last night I saw a posting online from the slimy GM dealer here in town (not the one I got my cars from) advertising the Chevy Bolts they have in stock. At the top in big numbers they show the price (lets say $37K) and then underneath it in bold type they say "Federal Rebate: $5000" and "Our Discount: $3000". I thought that was interesting so I took a look and clicked through. Turns out the Bolts were around $45K Cdn and then they were deducting the $5K Federal incentive and the just-announced $3K NS incentive (what they were calling their discount). They weren't actually offing anything themselves at all. Slippery buggers.

dino001

That's what bothers me the most - treating customers like morons. Instead of telling like it is, such as "we have a low inventory, so all you get is manufacturer's incentive", they still pretend they are "giving" you something from their own pool. You want high price, fine, I may or may not take it, but treat me like an adult and don't lie to me. Reminds me rampant "YOU PAY" screamer ads that subtract assumed trade-in value of whatever (say $3000), basically suggesting that that 3 grand barter is paid by Santa Claus, or perhaps Jack Frost.

dino001

This two guys make my skin crawl. It's hard to understand why these things are still happening. There are some many of their videos, they must be star teachers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HeaWUNgolg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBZ5hYQiPTk

Sandman6472

Also very glad we're not in the market for a new vehicle now. Hate going and playing the dance because even with the internet's help, one's never actually sure how well they did. Since I drive so little now, just plan on keeping my current d d a bit longer and fix any issues that crop up. Just wish I had changed jobs closer to home a few years earlier as I'd have been well under 50K by this point. But, finally find a good honest mechanic so might jut end up keeping it closer to 10 years than I originally thought.
And when I do decide to buy again, an EV vehicle will be high on that short list. Get me a range of 300 miles or better, and that'll work. But one in the household will still need a gas powered vehicle for those unexpected longer trips. Just wish the country's infrastructure will get more charging stations out there!

sda

I don't have an issue with a sales person making a commission or incentive when I buy a car. I just don't want to be taken advantage of and be the butt of their joke of 'making their month'. I have used the OTD strategy for years and it does cut out a lot of the nonsense and I have only myself to blame if I offered too much.

tjc78

The first guy with the depreciation curve could very well be correct in the example shown. That’s an Apples/Oranges comparison. A true grinder wouldn’t care and say they want the Chevy for 42K or they aren’t buying it.

I didn’t watch the video of the second guy but have seen others and if it’s like the other videos he twists the numbers so much you don’t even know what he is talking about anymore.

roadburner

sda said:

I don't have an issue with a sales person making a commission or incentive when I buy a car. I just don't want to be taken advantage of and be the butt of their joke of 'making their month'. I have used the OTD strategy for years and it does cut out a lot of the nonsense and I have only myself to blame if I offered too much.

Exactly, OTD avoids 99% of the games. I’ve actually heard of dealers who won’t give an OTD price. I think if you don’t walk in that situation you are a complete and utter moron- and have no reason to complain if you get, as the Brits put it, “A jolly good rogering”...

jmonroe1

driver100 said:

Don't buy a car from this dealer;

Easy now, that guy on the left looks a lot like my uncle Wilbur.

jmonroe

explorerx4

If the seller was going to guarantee the trade in value, that would be one thing, but that will never happen.
I've seen a video of the 2nd guy doing basically the same thing.

dino001

tjc78 said:

The first guy with the depreciation curve could very well be correct in the example shown. That’s an Apples/Oranges comparison. A true grinder wouldn’t care and say they want the Chevy for 42K or they aren’t buying it.

I didn’t watch the video of the second guy but have seen others and if it’s like the other videos he twists the numbers so much you don’t even know what he is talking about anymore.

They're all training "overcoming objections". This whole language makes me want to poke my eye and twirl.

Michaell

dino001 said:

tjc78 said:

The first guy with the depreciation curve could very well be correct in the example shown. That’s an Apples/Oranges comparison. A true grinder wouldn’t care and say they want the Chevy for 42K or they aren’t buying it.

I didn’t watch the video of the second guy but have seen others and if it’s like the other videos he twists the numbers so much you don’t even know what he is talking about anymore.

They're all training "overcoming objections". This whole language makes me want to poke my eye and twirl.

I think that if you go in with your OTD price, there really aren't any objections - it's a yes or no type situation. If no, no hard feelings and you move on to the next dealer.

AKA the "bobst" method.

fintail

I was ghosted by a MB dealer for knowing MF and how it worked. I think in some areas they know someone else will eventually come along, so they just don't care.

tjc78 said:

The thing that really aggravates me when negotiating a lease is when the dealer simply won’t give into the fact you do actually know what you are talking about. It’s like their day is ruined they can’t play the smoke and mirrors game. Math is math, except for car dealers.

It’s also why I will never negotiate with them in person ever again. Test drive, get quote (laugh) and then go to work emailing dealers and/or seeing if a broker has a better deal.

The days of playing ball in their stadium is over.

tjc78

dino001 said:

tjc78 said:

The first guy with the depreciation curve could very well be correct in the example shown. That’s an Apples/Oranges comparison. A true grinder wouldn’t care and say they want the Chevy for 42K or they aren’t buying it.

I didn’t watch the video of the second guy but have seen others and if it’s like the other videos he twists the numbers so much you don’t even know what he is talking about anymore.

They're all training "overcoming objections". This whole language makes me want to poke my eye and twirl.

Does that really work in car sales any longer? It’s not like the old days when you looked for the salesperson to show the cars and it’s features versus it’s competition. Manufacturer’s websites and You Tube reviews do that plenty well.

It comes down to price and service before and during the sale. I don’t even care about the service department where I buy the car since I can always have it serviced elsewhere.

I guess the old “sense of urgency” close could still work... “Mr car shopper you don’t know what the incentives will be next month”. OR “I hope that metallic pea Family Truckster is still here tomorrow, I had a guy looking at it right before you came in”

Michaell

tjc78 said:

dino001 said:

tjc78 said:

The first guy with the depreciation curve could very well be correct in the example shown. That’s an Apples/Oranges comparison. A true grinder wouldn’t care and say they want the Chevy for 42K or they aren’t buying it.

I didn’t watch the video of the second guy but have seen others and if it’s like the other videos he twists the numbers so much you don’t even know what he is talking about anymore.

They're all training "overcoming objections". This whole language makes me want to poke my eye and twirl.

Does that really work in car sales any longer? It’s not like the old days when you looked for the salesperson to show the cars and it’s features versus it’s competition. Manufacturer’s websites and You Tube reviews do that plenty well.

It comes down to price and service before and during the sale. I don’t even care about the service department where I buy the car since I can always have it serviced elsewhere.

I guess the old “sense of urgency” close could still work... “Mr car shopper you don’t know what the incentives will be next month”. OR “I hope that metallic pea Family Truckster is still here tomorrow, I had a guy looking at it right before you came in”

At the end of the month, nobody knows what the programs and incentives will look like. Getting to the point in the year where the previous MY programs have ended.

Want to lease a 2020 Volvo? Sorry, those programs have expired.

venture

I got my second Covid jab about 4 hours ago. So far no difference.

My sister and her husband got their second dose last week - at the same time. She said she felt like a truck ran over her then backed up. He had little to no reaction.

jmonroe1

venture said:

I got my second Covid jab about 4 hours ago. So far no difference.

My sister and her husband got their second dose last week - at the same time. She said she felt like a truck ran over her then backed up. He had little to no reaction.

I hope your luck continues. We get our second stabbing on Thursday, I think. Hope it’s still available as planned but who knows.

As for reactions, the pharmacist that gave us our first shot said, “the first one was a piece of cake” but the second one put her down for about 12 hours. I don’t know what percentage have adverse reactions to the second shot but the odds seem to be in favor of no or very mild reactions.

Keep us informed how it goes.

jmonroe

nyccarguy

The more I think about it, the happier I am that I went with a broker to lease my 2019 Tacoma. Yes it cost me money upfront, but the broker saved me time and money over the course of the lease. I pay the broker, he works for me. I trust he’s giving me the best deal he can given the vehicle I picked and the programs that are out there for that month. No games. No “alternative” math.

pensfan83

You got a good broker too.

nyccarguy

pensfan83 said:

You got a good broker too.

I feel very fortunate to be able to work with Mike. He’s a good dude for sure.

oldfarmer50

snakeweasel said:

jmonroe1 said:

graphicguy said:

I believe this is the last hurrah for gasoline companies. Demand will drop about 2%/year (according to BP, Exxon and Dutch Petroleum-Shell) in the near term and that rate will accelerate in the next 3-7 years. And, that projection is even made as the world comes out of the Global Recession caused by COVID.

As we’ve seen over the decades, they don’t need much, if any reason, to jack up prices. I think they’re shouting themselves in the foot by doing so, though.

Read an article in the WSJ a little while ago stating Dutch Petroleum is one of the big refineries that’s diversifying into wind and solar, in addition to adding electric stations, with new areas where customers can dine and relax while charging their vehicles. The rest will follow suit.

Kinda like whistling past the graveyard but not really. That 2% drop is more than likely just for gas and oil for cars and trucks. There are a lot of items made from refined oil. The oil companies are not so much oil companies as they are energy companies. They’ve been into that for quite some time now. They’ve been into gas and fracking and are only getting into that more and more since they see the hand writing on the wall. Unfortunately, like banks, they are too big to fail. Government’s around the globe won’t let that happen. Too many jobs and the need for that product is at stake for that to happen.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t like them either and what I just said doesn’t mean we should roll over and accept it. Continued competition is still the way to go.

If there was ever an industry that if they could figure out a way to harness the power from the Sun and then sell it to the people, it’s the oil companies.

jmonroe

Yeah if they could only find a way to harness the power of the sun,

Has anyone ever considered how much viable farmland lies under all those panels. I see this traveling around the countryside all the time. Good flat land covered up while scrub land is left alone. All because it’s a bit cheaper to install panels in flat cleared fields rather than uneven brush covered parcels. Some day we’ll have plenty of energy but no food.

oldfarmer50

venture said:

Just filled up a few minutes ago:

Regular $3.10
Plus $3.40
Premium $3.80

That's US dollars.

The prices seem to rise in your state first. NY is now around $2.80 while VT today was about $2.60.

oldfarmer50

Sandman6472 said:

Also very glad we're not in the market for a new vehicle now. Hate going and playing the dance because even with the internet's help, one's never actually sure how well they did. Since I drive so little now, just plan on keeping my current d d a bit longer and fix any issues that crop up. Just wish I had changed jobs closer to home a few years earlier as I'd have been well under 50K by this point. But, finally find a good honest mechanic so might jut end up keeping it closer to 10 years than I originally thought.
And when I do decide to buy again, an EV vehicle will be high on that short list. Get me a range of 300 miles or better, and that'll work. But one in the household will still need a gas powered vehicle for those unexpected longer trips. Just wish the country's infrastructure will get more charging stations out there!

Sandy, when we walked in today the boss announced that driver “appreciation” day was last Friday and whipped out a stack of $100 gift cards and started handing them out.

A hundred bucks in the scheme of things is pretty minor but if felt good knowing that the company at least tried to acknowledge our existence. The gesture was welcome in light of some of some of the screw ups that have occurred of late.

The car wash van:

driver100

dino001 said:

tjc78 said:

The first guy with the depreciation curve could very well be correct in the example shown. That’s an Apples/Oranges comparison. A true grinder wouldn’t care and say they want the Chevy for 42K or they aren’t buying it.

I didn’t watch the video of the second guy but have seen others and if it’s like the other videos he twists the numbers so much you don’t even know what he is talking about anymore.

They're all training "overcoming objections". This whole language makes me want to poke my eye and twirl.

"Overcoming objections" is a big skill when selling. I think the argument the guy made was valid and brilliant.......the cost isn't just the price of the truck he is looking at, but it is also the value at the end of the pay period. He also pointed out the guy can get a Dodge for $42500, but he really wants a Chev.....the buyer shouldn't be comparing another make and try to match the price. I would also point out that over 5 years the truck he really wants, the Chevy will cost him an extra $500 a year, and it will be less than that when you consider the value at the end of the 5 years....in fact, the Chev could end up costing less. If the Chevy is more reliable I'd point that out too.

I see nothing wrong in a salesperson pointing out the advantages of his product....never put down the other guys product, just point out how yours might suit him better....and I would see it as me doing the guy a favor - steering him in the right direction and making a wiser choice. But, I can only point out why the Chevy is probably the better buy...but the choice is his, and I respect that.

jmonroe1

oldfarmer50 said:

snakeweasel said:

jmonroe1 said:

graphicguy said:

I believe this is the last hurrah for gasoline companies. Demand will drop about 2%/year (according to BP, Exxon and Dutch Petroleum-Shell) in the near term and that rate will accelerate in the next 3-7 years. And, that projection is even made as the world comes out of the Global Recession caused by COVID.

As we’ve seen over the decades, they don’t need much, if any reason, to jack up prices. I think they’re shouting themselves in the foot by doing so, though.

Read an article in the WSJ a little while ago stating Dutch Petroleum is one of the big refineries that’s diversifying into wind and solar, in addition to adding electric stations, with new areas where customers can dine and relax while charging their vehicles. The rest will follow suit.

Kinda like whistling past the graveyard but not really. That 2% drop is more than likely just for gas and oil for cars and trucks. There are a lot of items made from refined oil. The oil companies are not so much oil companies as they are energy companies. They’ve been into that for quite some time now. They’ve been into gas and fracking and are only getting into that more and more since they see the hand writing on the wall. Unfortunately, like banks, they are too big to fail. Government’s around the globe won’t let that happen. Too many jobs and the need for that product is at stake for that to happen.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t like them either and what I just said doesn’t mean we should roll over and accept it. Continued competition is still the way to go.

If there was ever an industry that if they could figure out a way to harness the power from the Sun and then sell it to the people, it’s the oil companies.

jmonroe

Yeah if they could only find a way to harness the power of the sun,

Has anyone ever considered how much viable farmland lies under all those panels. I see this traveling around the countryside all the time. Good flat land covered up while scrub land is left alone. All because it’s a bit cheaper to install panels in flat cleared fields rather than uneven brush covered parcels. Some day we’ll have plenty of energy but no food.

You sound like you expect them to work for those kilowatts. Don’t fret it kilowatts will be dirt cheap pretty soon they’ll just not taste very good. Life has taught us we can’t have everything. Where have you been? Under a rock for 50 years or what?

jmonroe

snakeweasel

dino001 said:

This two guys make my skin crawl. It's hard to understand why these things are still happening. There are some many of their videos, they must be star teachers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HeaWUNgolg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBZ5hYQiPTk

First guy the issue is that it's rather difficult to determine what the market will be for used cars in 5 years. I would ask for a guaranteed that the Chevy will be worth $7K more in 5 years.

The second one, maybe that scenario a car purchase isn't what he needs.

snakeweasel

jmonroe1 said:

driver100 said:

Don't buy a car from this dealer;

Easy now, that guy on the left looks a lot like my uncle Wilbur.

jmonroe

Does your uncle have a talking horse?

jmonroe1

snakeweasel said:

jmonroe1 said:

driver100 said:

Don't buy a car from this dealer;

Easy now, that guy on the left looks a lot like my uncle Wilbur.

jmonroe

Does your uncle have a talking horse?

No, but he had a dog that bit the mailman a couple times. That guy could have been a relative of one of our poster buddies.

jmonroe

jipster

venture said:

I got my second Covid jab about 4 hours ago. So far no difference.

My sister and her husband got their second dose last week - at the same time. She said she felt like a truck ran over her then backed up. He had little to no reaction.

Had my vaccines in January. Almost zero reaction on the first. Zero to almost nothing on the second. Knocked a coworker out of work for 2 days with side effects. So like cars, your mileage may vary.

Lawsuit on my son's accident coming along. At fault party's insurance company made an offer to settle. My son's lawyer is negotiating for a better offer. Just an fyi, the crappy insurance company's, i.e safe auto, the general, won't pay much on accident settlements..per my lawyer,.maybe 1/3rd. Luckily the guy who hit my son had decent insurance.

And, not too early to start the car buying process...only about 2 years, if everything goes according to plan. My wife will be looking to replace her 2011 Hyundai Veracruz with a compact size suv. The frontrunners are the Mazda CX -5, Honda CRV, Toyota Rav 4, and the Hyundai Tucson or Santa Fe.

venture

jmonroe1 said:

venture said:

I got my second Covid jab about 4 hours ago. So far no difference.

My sister and her husband got their second dose last week - at the same time. She said she felt like a truck ran over her then backed up. He had little to no reaction.

I hope your luck continues. We get our second stabbing on Thursday, I think. Hope it’s still available as planned but who knows.

As for reactions, the pharmacist that gave us our first shot said, “the first one was a piece of cake” but the second one put her down for about 12 hours. I don’t know what percentage have adverse reactions to the second shot but the odds seem to be in favor of no or very mild reactions.

Keep us informed how it goes.

jmonroe

10 hours and not even sore at the injection site. We will see.

snakeweasel

jmonroe1 said:

snakeweasel said:

jmonroe1 said:

driver100 said:

Don't buy a car from this dealer;

Easy now, that guy on the left looks a lot like my uncle Wilbur.

jmonroe

Does your uncle have a talking horse?

No, but he had a dog that bit the mailman a couple times. That guy could have been a relative of one of our poster buddies.

jmonroe

My sister was a rural route carrier in Colorado. There was a dog on her route that would bite her car and hold on. She would have to slowly drive away until the dog let go. She loved showing people the bite marks on her back bumper.

oldfarmer50

jipster said:

venture said:

I got my second Covid jab about 4 hours ago. So far no difference.

My sister and her husband got their second dose last week - at the same time. She said she felt like a truck ran over her then backed up. He had little to no reaction.

Had my vaccines in January. Almost zero reaction on the first. Zero to almost nothing on the second. Knocked a coworker out of work for 2 days with side effects. So like cars, your mileage may vary.

Lawsuit on my son's accident coming along. At fault party's insurance company made an offer to settle. My son's lawyer is negotiating for a better offer. Just an fyi, the crappy insurance company's, i.e safe auto, the general, won't pay much on accident settlements..per my lawyer,.maybe 1/3rd. Luckily the guy who hit my son had decent insurance.

And, not too early to start the car buying process...only about 2 years, if everything goes according to plan. My wife will be looking to replace her 2011 Hyundai Veracruz with a compact size suv. The frontrunners are the Mazda CX -5, Honda CRV, Toyota Rav 4, and the Hyundai Tucson or Santa Fe.

Refresh my memory, when did this happen and to what car? I’m assuming there were no serious injuries or I would have remembered that.

snakeweasel

driver100 said:

dino001 said:

tjc78 said:

The first guy with the depreciation curve could very well be correct in the example shown. That’s an Apples/Oranges comparison. A true grinder wouldn’t care and say they want the Chevy for 42K or they aren’t buying it.

I didn’t watch the video of the second guy but have seen others and if it’s like the other videos he twists the numbers so much you don’t even know what he is talking about anymore.

They're all training "overcoming objections". This whole language makes me want to poke my eye and twirl.

"Overcoming objections" is a big skill when selling. I think the argument the guy made was valid and brilliant.......the cost isn't just the price of the truck he is looking at, but it is also the value at the end of the pay period. He also pointed out the guy can get a Dodge for $42500, but he really wants a Chev.....the buyer shouldn't be comparing another make and try to match the price. I would also point out that over 5 years the truck he really wants, the Chevy will cost him an extra $500 a year, and it will be less than that when you consider the value at the end of the 5 years....in fact, the Chev could end up costing less. If the Chevy is more reliable I'd point that out too.

I see nothing wrong in a salesperson pointing out the advantages of his product....never put down the other guys product, just point out how yours might suit him better....and I would see it as me doing the guy a favor - steering him in the right direction and making a wiser choice. But, I can only point out why the Chevy is probably the better buy...but the choice is his, and I respect that.

While the cost of the truck also includes the value at the time you dispose of the truck there are two issues with that. First we cannot with any certainty tell what the value of anything will be in 5 years, so it's all conjecture. Secondly is the difference between the two at the time of disposal going to be high enough to warrant the extra expense considering you will be financing that difference and the time value of the difference?

Now for the bonus issue, you are getting your information from someone who has a vested interest in selling you the Chevy. So take what he is saying with a lot of skepticism. I will bet you that the Dodge salesman will tell you you will never get the original price difference back when you trade in the vehicle.

venture

This past Sunday Mrs. venture mentioned that the shower she uses didn't work to her satisfaction. (Close your eyes Bradd) so I went to Home Depot and grabbed a Delta that looked pretty good. When I got it home and took it out of the packaging I discovered it was plastic!

I installed it anyway as a stop gap. Darned if it doesn't work well.

explorerx4

That first video must be pretty old because Dodge hasn't made a truck in many years.

jipster

oldfarmer50 said:

jipster said:

venture said:

I got my second Covid jab about 4 hours ago. So far no difference.

My sister and her husband got their second dose last week - at the same time. She said she felt like a truck ran over her then backed up. He had little to no reaction.

Had my vaccines in January. Almost zero reaction on the first. Zero to almost nothing on the second. Knocked a coworker out of work for 2 days with side effects. So like cars, your mileage may vary.

Lawsuit on my son's accident coming along. At fault party's insurance company made an offer to settle. My son's lawyer is negotiating for a better offer. Just an fyi, the crappy insurance company's, i.e safe auto, the general, won't pay much on accident settlements..per my lawyer,.maybe 1/3rd. Luckily the guy who hit my son had decent insurance.

And, not too early to start the car buying process...only about 2 years, if everything goes according to plan. My wife will be looking to replace her 2011 Hyundai Veracruz with a compact size suv. The frontrunners are the Mazda CX -5, Honda CRV, Toyota Rav 4, and the Hyundai Tucson or Santa Fe.

Refresh my memory, when did this happen and to what car? I’m assuming there were no serious injuries or I would have remembered that.

Late October my son was rear ended on interstate while driving my 2008 Mercury Mariner. It was totaled by the insurance company for $4k. Son had whiplash, but not serious. Had cat scan. Suing the at fault party for pain and suffering. I'm thinking we'll probably hear something this week, on their final offer.

driver100

snakeweasel said:

driver100 said:

dino001 said:

tjc78 said:

The first guy with the depreciation curve could very well be correct in the example shown. That’s an Apples/Oranges comparison. A true grinder wouldn’t care and say they want the Chevy for 42K or they aren’t buying it.

I didn’t watch the video of the second guy but have seen others and if it’s like the other videos he twists the numbers so much you don’t even know what he is talking about anymore.

They're all training "overcoming objections". This whole language makes me want to poke my eye and twirl.

"Overcoming objections" is a big skill when selling. I think the argument the guy made was valid and brilliant.......the cost isn't just the price of the truck he is looking at, but it is also the value at the end of the pay period. He also pointed out the guy can get a Dodge for $42500, but he really wants a Chev.....the buyer shouldn't be comparing another make and try to match the price. I would also point out that over 5 years the truck he really wants, the Chevy will cost him an extra $500 a year, and it will be less than that when you consider the value at the end of the 5 years....in fact, the Chev could end up costing less. If the Chevy is more reliable I'd point that out too.

I see nothing wrong in a salesperson pointing out the advantages of his product....never put down the other guys product, just point out how yours might suit him better....and I would see it as me doing the guy a favor - steering him in the right direction and making a wiser choice. But, I can only point out why the Chevy is probably the better buy...but the choice is his, and I respect that.

While the cost of the truck also includes the value at the time you dispose of the truck there are two issues with that. First we cannot with any certainty tell what the value of anything will be in 5 years, so it's all conjecture. Secondly is the difference between the two at the time of disposal going to be high enough to warrant the extra expense considering you will be financing that difference and the time value of the difference?

Now for the bonus issue, you are getting your information from someone who has a vested interest in selling you the Chevy. So take what he is saying with a lot of skepticism. I will bet you that the Dodge salesman will tell you you will never get the original price difference back when you trade in the vehicle.

You can get a pretty good idea of the residual value after 5 years by looking at the past history....my guess is that a Chev is worth more than a Dodge. If you really want to know see what the buy out price would be on a lease....in fact the Chev might cost less to lease....if it holds it's value better.

Hard to compare but when I compare 2015 Dodge to 2016 Chev trucks the Chevs can be worth $8k to $10k more.

I listen to what the salesman tells me because he knows his product....I filter out the bias info. I would do some research to see if he is right about the value after 5 years....if it isn't true he loses all credibility.

If the Dodge salesman says I won't make my money back when I trade it in I will research his statement as well, he might be right, but if he is wrong he loses all credibility.

The sales person can be a resource if you use them wisely, and if they are good salesmen.

I don't get this idea of "don't trust anyone". If I was selling a car sure I would hilite the positives of my product and see if it suits the customer, but I am only going to say what is true. The customer weighs the evidence. A good salesperson might point out factors I wasn't aware of....that might make a difference.

abacomike

jipster said:

oldfarmer50 said:

jipster said:

venture said:

I got my second Covid jab about 4 hours ago. So far no difference.

My sister and her husband got their second dose last week - at the same time. She said she felt like a truck ran over her then backed up. He had little to no reaction.

Had my vaccines in January. Almost zero reaction on the first. Zero to almost nothing on the second. Knocked a coworker out of work for 2 days with side effects. So like cars, your mileage may vary.

Lawsuit on my son's accident coming along. At fault party's insurance company made an offer to settle. My son's lawyer is negotiating for a better offer. Just an fyi, the crappy insurance company's, i.e safe auto, the general, won't pay much on accident settlements..per my lawyer,.maybe 1/3rd. Luckily the guy who hit my son had decent insurance.

And, not too early to start the car buying process...only about 2 years, if everything goes according to plan. My wife will be looking to replace her 2011 Hyundai Veracruz with a compact size suv. The frontrunners are the Mazda CX -5, Honda CRV, Toyota Rav 4, and the Hyundai Tucson or Santa Fe.

Refresh my memory, when did this happen and to what car? I’m assuming there were no serious injuries or I would have remembered that.

Late October my son was rear ended on interstate while driving my 2008 Mercury Mariner. It was totaled by the insurance company for $4k. Son had whiplash, but not serious. Had cat scan. Suing the at fault party for pain and suffering. I'm thinking we'll probably hear something this week, on their final offer.

As we all obviously agree, the greatest result of the accident is that your son is, for the most part, free from serious or radical injuries, but whiplash can easily come back at a later time in life to haunt him - thus his lawsuit for pain and suffering - but don’t forget about the distant future!

Cars can be replaced, but sons cannot! 🤓

jipster

abacomike said:

jipster said:

oldfarmer50 said:

jipster said:

venture said:

I got my second Covid jab about 4 hours ago. So far no difference.

My sister and her husband got their second dose last week - at the same time. She said she felt like a truck ran over her then backed up. He had little to no reaction.

Had my vaccines in January. Almost zero reaction on the first. Zero to almost nothing on the second. Knocked a coworker out of work for 2 days with side effects. So like cars, your mileage may vary.

Lawsuit on my son's accident coming along. At fault party's insurance company made an offer to settle. My son's lawyer is negotiating for a better offer. Just an fyi, the crappy insurance company's, i.e safe auto, the general, won't pay much on accident settlements..per my lawyer,.maybe 1/3rd. Luckily the guy who hit my son had decent insurance.

And, not too early to start the car buying process...only about 2 years, if everything goes according to plan. My wife will be looking to replace her 2011 Hyundai Veracruz with a compact size suv. The frontrunners are the Mazda CX -5, Honda CRV, Toyota Rav 4, and the Hyundai Tucson or Santa Fe.

Refresh my memory, when did this happen and to what car? I’m assuming there were no serious injuries or I would have remembered that.

Late October my son was rear ended on interstate while driving my 2008 Mercury Mariner. It was totaled by the insurance company for $4k. Son had whiplash, but not serious. Had cat scan. Suing the at fault party for pain and suffering. I'm thinking we'll probably hear something this week, on their final offer.

As we all obviously agree, the greatest result of the accident is that your son is, for the most part, free from serious or radical injuries, but whiplash can easily come back at a later time in life to haunt him - thus his lawsuit for pain and suffering - but don’t forget about the distant future!

Cars can be replaced, but sons cannot! 🤓

Absolutely. Thx. I'm thinking the heavier Mercury Mariner may have offered better protection, in that accident, than the Mercury Milan he usually drives would have. I think my son was driving
my Mariner because his Milan had a nail in the tire. So, lucky in that respect.

omarman

ab348

venture said:

This past Sunday Mrs. venture mentioned that the shower she uses didn't work to her satisfaction. (Close your eyes Bradd) so I went to Home Depot and grabbed a Delta that looked pretty good. When I got it home and took it out of the packaging I discovered it was plastic!

I installed it anyway as a stop gap. Darned if it doesn't work well.

Sadly, most things like that are plastic these days. I have a Waterpic hand shower that is also plastic, but when I was looking for one I discovered they make a bunch of different kinds and some work better than the others according to the reviews found on store sites. So I bought the recommended one, removed the flow-constricting O-rings as someone suggested, and have a great hand shower now.

Before I bought my house and was living in an apartment I arrived home from work one day to discover that the management had changed the shower head to a low-flow one. They had given notice they were going to do this and when I tried it it was like standing in a cloud of steam, with almost no actual water jetting out. I unscrewed it and it was a substantial all-metal piece that defied alteration. That night I went to Canadian Tire and bought a cheap plastic replacement. Out of the package it was no better, but it gave a clear shot to the flow-restricting hole. I drilled it out to twice its original size and then it was the best showerhead I have ever used.

jmonroe1

venture said:

This past Sunday Mrs. venture mentioned that the shower she uses didn't work to her satisfaction. (Close your eyes Bradd) so I went to Home Depot and grabbed a Delta that looked pretty good. When I got it home and took it out of the packaging I discovered it was plastic!

I installed it anyway as a stop gap. Darned if it doesn't work well.

I take it you’re talking about the shower head itself and not the whole gizmo. While my Son and I wouldn’t do that in our flips, if it has good water flow that’s all that’s important to me. If nothing else you won’t have to worry about corrosion.

Thanks for the COVID-19 second shot update.

jmonroe

snakeweasel

explorerx4 said:

That first video must be pretty old because Dodge hasn't made a truck in many years.

Dodge makes Ram trucks.

tjc78

omarman said:

Was hoping someone got my joke there!

snakeweasel

driver100 said:

snakeweasel said:

driver100 said:

dino001 said:

tjc78 said:

The first guy with the depreciation curve could very well be correct in the example shown. That’s an Apples/Oranges comparison. A true grinder wouldn’t care and say they want the Chevy for 42K or they aren’t buying it.

I didn’t watch the video of the second guy but have seen others and if it’s like the other videos he twists the numbers so much you don’t even know what he is talking about anymore.

They're all training "overcoming objections". This whole language makes me want to poke my eye and twirl.

"Overcoming objections" is a big skill when selling. I think the argument the guy made was valid and brilliant.......the cost isn't just the price of the truck he is looking at, but it is also the value at the end of the pay period. He also pointed out the guy can get a Dodge for $42500, but he really wants a Chev.....the buyer shouldn't be comparing another make and try to match the price. I would also point out that over 5 years the truck he really wants, the Chevy will cost him an extra $500 a year, and it will be less than that when you consider the value at the end of the 5 years....in fact, the Chev could end up costing less. If the Chevy is more reliable I'd point that out too.

I see nothing wrong in a salesperson pointing out the advantages of his product....never put down the other guys product, just point out how yours might suit him better....and I would see it as me doing the guy a favor - steering him in the right direction and making a wiser choice. But, I can only point out why the Chevy is probably the better buy...but the choice is his, and I respect that.

While the cost of the truck also includes the value at the time you dispose of the truck there are two issues with that. First we cannot with any certainty tell what the value of anything will be in 5 years, so it's all conjecture. Secondly is the difference between the two at the time of disposal going to be high enough to warrant the extra expense considering you will be financing that difference and the time value of the difference?

Now for the bonus issue, you are getting your information from someone who has a vested interest in selling you the Chevy. So take what he is saying with a lot of skepticism. I will bet you that the Dodge salesman will tell you you will never get the original price difference back when you trade in the vehicle.

You can get a pretty good idea of the residual value after 5 years by looking at the past history....my guess is that a Chev is worth more than a Dodge. If you really want to know see what the buy out price would be on a lease....in fact the Chev might cost less to lease....if it holds it's value better.

Hard to compare but when I compare 2015 Dodge to 2016 Chev trucks the Chevs can be worth $8k to $10k more.

I listen to what the salesman tells me because he knows his product....I filter out the bias info. I would do some research to see if he is right about the value after 5 years....if it isn't true he loses all credibility.

If the Dodge salesman says I won't make my money back when I trade it in I will research his statement as well, he might be right, but if he is wrong he loses all credibility.

The sales person can be a resource if you use them wisely, and if they are good salesmen.

I don't get this idea of "don't trust anyone". If I was selling a car sure I would hilite the positives of my product and see if it suits the customer, but I am only going to say what is true. The customer weighs the evidence. A good salesperson might point out factors I wasn't aware of....that might make a difference.

Past history while can be an indicator but things can change. Just because something happened in the past does not mean it will continue into the future. As for not trusting anyone, it's not that but you have to look at what a salesman says through the lens that he is trying to get you to buy something.

graphicguy

I’m certain it’s the same with leases as it is for straight purchases. If it’s a sales person I’ve not worked with before, invariably, s/he comes back with...”where’d you get your numbers?”

That’s why I do a one sheet print out of all the numbers. Price of the vehicle, taxes, license fees. “Tell me which figure is wrong, and why”. That usually causes a bunch of fumbling around, mostly when I don’t include the “doc fee”.

One number....bottom of the page. We either have a deal or we don’t. How the numbers from that bottom line amount is divided up is up to them. My check is for the bottom line number.

The exception was when I bought the Stinger. I had been looking at them for a year. I pretty much knew the pricing on them. But, their offer was well below what I expected to pay. Obviously, trunk money that I wasn’t privy to. I just pulled the trigger. I still believe I was in the right place, at the right time (last day of the sales year), ready to buy what was, at the time, a slow selling vehicle.

Not pleased with the dealership’s service. Very pleased with the car and the deal, though.

I would think the numbers on a lease could be put to paper just as easily. The reasons I don’t like leases are costs like inception fees, disposition fees, etc. No one is doing any more paperwork for a lease than they do a sale. Disposition fee? It’s going to a dealer’s lot for sale, just like a trade in. Why do I have to pay to “dispose” it?

Still, some of the deals I see you guys getting on lease Tacomas and some of the ones I’ve seen on some electric vehicles make that option more appealing.

imidazol97

Things haven't changed much since the days of the Scion Xb inside the toyota showrooms with an extra $600 fee above the doc fee and dealer fee. What was that for, I asked the salesperson who had attached himself to me like a Siamese twin? He said it was for, "Unwrapping the car."

stickguy

GG, sounds like you make them give you a number first, right? I always do.

snakeweasel

omarman said:

Not only is it the wrong model it has to be the wrong dealership. That scene takes place in Chicago (Clark is picking up the car prior to their trip to Wally World) and there are mountains in the background.