Edmunds Members - Cars and Conversations (Archived)

snakeweasel

sda said:

I just returned from a Honda dealer that I've done a fair amount of business and had appreciated that they rarely did addendum price stickers or when they did they were modest. No more. Look at these overpriced items! In addition the service dept tried to upsell me for air/cabin filter, fuel system cleaning, brake fluid flush, etc. Also said in 2 oil changes the timing belt needs to be replaced. (I expected that, but not the $950 price to do so.) I was also anticipating the suggestion to replace air/cabin filters so earlier this week I ordered them online for both the Pilot and Accord and bought all 4 filters for less than they were going to charge for the cabin filter for the Pilot. By the way, the cabin filter is the same # for both cars.

Geeze, nearly two grand for almost nothing.

oldfarmer50

henryn said:

What I do with the nitrogen and mop-and-glo is to just ignore it. First, I go to Carmax and find out what my trade is worth. Next, I go to the dealer and find a vehicle that I want, and take it for a test drive. Then I take a picture with my cell phone of the window sticker. At that point, I refuse to go inside the dealership and negotiate. Instead, I get the salesman’s business card and leave.

At home, I go online to TrueCar and find what I should pay for the new car or truck I just looked at, complete with every option from the window sticker. Then I use a spread sheet, and work out the numbers. For my truck, last September, the numbers looked like this. Note that I am working from memory, so I have rounded off the numbers a little bit.

32,000 Truecar price for new truck
25,000 value of my trade at Carmax

7,000 difference
437.5 sales tax at 6.25% on the difference
300 for license plates, title transfer, whatever

$7,737.50 difference I will pay. I print out the spread sheet, with comments, and go back to the dealership.

I do NOT show my printout when I arrive. I ask them to present me with their numbers. It has happened that I get better numbers than I had computed. Only once, but it did happen, and I always wait to see.

After they present their numbers, which are almost always quite a bit higher, then I present my numbers. Basically saying, “Take it or leave it. You have 30 minutes to decide. After 30 minutes, I’m going somewhere else.”

I am polite, but firm. This avoids a lot of wasted time. You would think that the dealership would appreciate this, indeed I have talked to salesman and sales managers who tell me they do appreciate it. But some dealerships seem to exist only to “grind you down”.

We live in an information age. Not taking advantage of the information available seems very silly.

And I will add this. It does seem possible, for those willing to work hard at it, to beat those numbers from Truecar. The forums here at Edmunds for buying new Hondas are VERY active, and full of stories from people who actually beat the Truecar prices. I only wish we had more active buying forums for other makes and models. I have no idea why Honda forums are so active here, and others are not. I mean, the Ford F150 is the best selling new vehicle in North America for how many years running now, more than 30. But there are virtually no sales stories here at Edmunds. Why is that?

I did the same thing on my last purchase except I didn't bring any paperwork. I told what my offer was and when they didn't accept it I left. They called the next day and accepted. If they hadn't there are always other cars.

imidazol97

snakeweasel said:

My problem with that sticker goes beyond the ridiculous add ons. The sticker says it is an EPA fuel economy and environment sticker. I see nothing on it about the fuel economy or environment other than to refer one to the original legal sticker on the car. Fake Fake Fake. To make people think the sticker has validity.

abacomike

They call that an "addendum" sticker.  Dealers use them when adding equipment or dealer installed options.

snakeweasel

dino001 said:

I have some good candidates for worst movies, ever: Mystery Men, Very Bad Things, 30 Days Later. No redeeming qualities. I never felt more ripped off.

I take it you never seen "The Terror of Tiny Town".

dino001 said:

Then there are movies so bad that they are great: They Live (Carpenter's), with the fight scene spoofed in South Park.

"I'm here to kick [non-permissible content removed] and chew bubblegum and I'm all out of bubblegum."

stever

henryn said:

The forums here at Edmunds for buying new Hondas are VERY active, and full of stories from people who actually beat the Truecar prices. I only wish we had more active buying forums for other makes and models. I have no idea why Honda forums are so active here, and others are not.

I would love to know the answer to that one too. I answer way more CR-V pricing questions than any other model (I'd be in the Accord/Civic discussions a lot but members like @brian125 do most of the heavy lifting in those boards).

The CR-V is often the most researched vehicle on Edmunds too; all I can figure is that Honda buyers are both smart and cheap.

snakeweasel

abacomike said:

I really enjoyed seeing "Ferris Beuller's Day Off" at the movies - like 1986?

Tell me, what do you think of the theory that Ferris Beuller didn't exist and was just a figment of Cameron Frye's imagination.

stickguy

The Ferrari wasn't even real. so entirely possible.

driver100

oldfarmer50 said:

2007 Ford Taurus SE. 60k miles $4500. Is it worth it?



I particularly like the cat-back exhaust.

Not bad if you don't mind a car that isn't very comfortable, that has a cheap plasticy interior, and that has absolutely no element of fun in driving it. Do you have to take the cat if you buy it?

abacomike

snakeweasel said:

I really enjoyed seeing "Ferris Beuller's Day Off" at the movies - like 1986?

Tell me, what do you think of the theory that Ferris Beuller didn't exist and was just a figment of Cameron Frye's imagination.

The Ferrari tells me he existed!

driver100

stever said:

henryn said:

The forums here at Edmunds for buying new Hondas are VERY active, and full of stories from people who actually beat the Truecar prices. I only wish we had more active buying forums for other makes and models. I have no idea why Honda forums are so active here, and others are not.

I would love to know the answer to that one too. I answer way more CR-V pricing questions than any other model (I'd be in the Accord/Civic discussions a lot but members like @brian125 do most of the heavy lifting in those boards).

The CR-V is often the most researched vehicle on Edmunds too; all I can figure is that Honda buyers are both smart and cheap.

I think Honda buyers do a lot of research....I know of 3 that I could confirm that. They really examine value and reliability. They probably know a bit about cars too, or they would just choose a Corolla....probably even more reliable. But, the Honda at least gives you some driving pleasure, so that plus the reliability and resale value make it the #1 researched car....that would be my professional opinion.

henryn

snakeweasel said:

dino001 said:

I have some good candidates for worst movies, ever: Mystery Men, Very Bad Things, 30 Days Later. No redeeming qualities. I never felt more ripped off.

I take it you never seen "The Terror of Tiny Town".

dino001 said:

Then there are movies so bad that they are great: They Live (Carpenter's), with the fight scene spoofed in South Park.

"I'm here to kick [non-permissible content removed] and chew bubblegum and I'm all out of bubblegum."

Rowdy Roddy Piper, I do remember that line. Great movie line.

isellhondas

I would think that is a LOT of car for the money!

Amazing how domestics depreciate!

28firefighter

driver100 said:

2007 Ford Taurus SE. 60k miles $4500. Is it worth it? I particularly like the cat-back exhaust.

Not bad if you don't mind a car that isn't very comfortable, that has a cheap plasticy interior, and that has absolutely no element of fun in driving it. Do you have to take the cat if you buy it?

I drove a 2001 Taurus SEL with the DOHC 3.0L engine for almost 8 years - same body style. I loved that thing - solid highway cruiser, comfortable seats, and well equipped.

The only reason I flipped it was because I was driving to Columbus from Pittsburgh every weekend to see my girlfriend (now wife) and the transmission started slipping. The consensus from the dealers was that it needed a new transmission and it would cost more to fix it than it was worth. So...away it went. 

I still miss it sometimes - an ex-girlfriend referred to it as the police car because it was all black and had my volunteer firefighter lights stealthily installed. 

oldfarmer50

isellhondas said:

I would think that is a LOT of car for the money!

Amazing how domestics depreciate!

Of course that price could reflect a slew of problems that make it a bad bargin. Didn't the Taurus outsell the Camary at one point?

I've heard that there were two 3.0L engines available, the Vulcan which was wimpy and not too reliable and the Duratec which was better.

For basic transportation they seem to fill the bill.

The seller could keep the cat.

snakeweasel

abacomike said:

snakeweasel said:

abacomike said:

I really enjoyed seeing "Ferris Beuller's Day Off" at the movies - like 1986?

Tell me, what do you think of the theory that Ferris Beuller didn't exist and was just a figment of Cameron Frye's imagination.

The Ferrari tells me he existed!

It is said that Cameron took the blame for the Ferrari because he had to, that it was Cameron all along and Ferris really didn't exist.

andres3

VW is dirty, but the Audi is freshly washed and waxed. Can't take credit for the work, paid a highly rated local car wash outfit to do it.

Doesn't Kia or Scion call this similar color Stealth? Does that mean it flies under the radar and won't get any speeding tickets?

Weren't the stealth airplanes all black though?

Put me in the category for not liking black wheels either. Nothing black about the TT-S wheels! I don't mind a "gray" wheel however.

coldinohio

nice TT
really like wheels; remind me of BBS , although i like yours better

abacomike

@andres3:

Great looking Audi TT-S.  Must be lots of fun to drive.

stickguy

very nice looking. but man, that is one skinny sidewall.

abacomike

stickguy said:

very nice looking. but man, that is one skinny sidewall.

My sidewalls are very, very skinny as well -  285/30 R19's in the back and 255/35 R19's in the front.  That's why I don't put more than recommended cold tire air-pressure in the tires.  My tires are also extremely wide. 

oldfarmer50

andres3 said:

VW is dirty, but the Audi is freshly washed and waxed. Can't take credit for the work, paid a highly rated local car wash outfit to do it.

Doesn't Kia or Scion call this similar color Stealth? Does that mean it flies under the radar and won't get any speeding tickets?

Weren't the stealth airplanes all black though?

Put me in the category for not liking black wheels either. Nothing black about the TT-S wheels! I don't mind a "gray" wheel however.

Very nice. A friend is interested in a TT for a toy but he wants one for under $10k. Kinda of unrealistic unless he's willing to accept a high miler.

Your wheels look good too.

stickguy

I think the Jetta wagon is really sharp too.

Mr_Shiftright

You can buy used Audi TTs under $10,000---but they will be perhaps 10 years old or so.

nyccarguy

That is one mighty fine looking TT-S!  I dig it!

sda

snakeweasel said:

sda said:

I just returned from a Honda dealer that I've done a fair amount of business and had appreciated that they rarely did addendum price stickers or when they did they were modest. No more. Look at these overpriced items! In addition the service dept tried to upsell me for air/cabin filter, fuel system cleaning, brake fluid flush, etc. Also said in 2 oil changes the timing belt needs to be replaced. (I expected that, but not the $950 price to do so.) I was also anticipating the suggestion to replace air/cabin filters so earlier this week I ordered them online for both the Pilot and Accord and bought all 4 filters for less than they were going to charge for the cabin filter for the Pilot. By the way, the cabin filter is the same # for both cars.

Geeze, nearly two grand for almost nothing.

Correct! And that doesn't include the admin/doc fee and any extended warranty/services that they will try to sell! I wonder how may people actually push back on these additional add ons? I know it gives me a bitter taste and makes me not want to do business with them.

driver100

Very nice cars Andre.
Where would the license go on the front of the TT. (if you had to have one)
How did you get a rear license with the Audi logo?

I don't know about other states but in Florida you can choose from about 50 designer plate designs.

sda

abacomike said:

stickguy said:

very nice looking. but man, that is one skinny sidewall.

My sidewalls are very, very skinny as well -  285/30 R19's in the back and 255/35 R19's in the front.  That's why I don't put more than recommended cold tire air-pressure in the tires.  My tires are also extremely wide. 

Those are some low profile tires! I realize they do if for handling purposes, but I dislike when a manufacturer puts a different size tire front/rear. It makes it hard to do an effective rotation to provide good wear and maximize tire life.

jmonroe

driver100 said:

Very nice cars Andre.
Where would the license go on the front of the TT. (if you had to have one)
How did you get a rear license with the Audi logo?

I don't know about other states but in Florida you can choose from about 50 designer plate designs.

What are you doing collecting information or what?

I don't think Audi is permitted to sell their cars in states that require both front and rear plates.

In PA there are only a couple plate designs to chose from. I think tickets cost more when you have designer plates in PA so that's why I go with the standard.

jmonroe

sda

andres3--

Very nice, both cars! I would be delighted to have either one.

houdini1

sda said:

snakeweasel said:

sda said:

I just returned from a Honda dealer that I've done a fair amount of business and had appreciated that they rarely did addendum price stickers or when they did they were modest. No more. Look at these overpriced items! In addition the service dept tried to upsell me for air/cabin filter, fuel system cleaning, brake fluid flush, etc. Also said in 2 oil changes the timing belt needs to be replaced. (I expected that, but not the $950 price to do so.) I was also anticipating the suggestion to replace air/cabin filters so earlier this week I ordered them online for both the Pilot and Accord and bought all 4 filters for less than they were going to charge for the cabin filter for the Pilot. By the way, the cabin filter is the same # for both cars.

Geeze, nearly two grand for almost nothing.

Correct! And that doesn't include the admin/doc fee and any extended warranty/services that they will try to sell! I wonder how may people actually push back on these additional add ons? I know it gives me a bitter taste and makes me not want to do business with them.

I don't even want wheel locks on my cars.

houdini1

sda said:

andres3--

Very nice, both cars! I would be delighted to have either one.

Ditto, but what is that giant sticker on the windshield, some sort of temp. tag?

driver100

houdini1 said:

sda said:

andres3--

Very nice, both cars! I would be delighted to have either one.

Ditto, but what is that giant sticker on the windshield, some sort of temp. tag?

And what's on the hood of the Jetta....3rd picture down?

carnaught

That is a truly despicable add-on sticker; the fees are 2 to 10-fold overpriced, and should never be mandatory unless n/c.

Interestingly when i've seen those add-on stickers, on cars I've been interested in, I've almost always had the same response each time. In telling them I'm intersested in the car and ready to potentially buy except for the sticker, they've almost always told me to "forget" the sticker. If this subsequently leads to negotiation, my next question has been, what is your doc. fee? The next question has been, are there ANY other fees besides T.,T., & L. on the final settlement sheet? This information determines my offer. In the rare instance that they tell me the add-on sticker is non-negotiable, or if there are any of those "market adjustment" steep add-on stickers, I tell them that as long as they have those fees I will NEVER do business with them. I then name an alternative dealership or car brand that I will be pursuing. That is their final nail in the coffin, so to speak. Oh, and if a deal is reached, when I'm in the finance office, if there are ANY additional fees, I walk from the deal.

driver100

jmonroe said:

driver100 said:

Very nice cars Andre.
Where would the license go on the front of the TT. (if you had to have one)
How did you get a rear license with the Audi logo?

I don't know about other states but in Florida you can choose from about 50 designer plate designs.

What are you doing collecting information or what?

HE MIGHT BE EXPORTING CARS....THOUGHT I MIGHT GET A REWARD!

I don't think Audi is permitted to sell their cars in states that require both front and rear plates.

ALL CARS IN CANADA NEED FRONT AND BACK PLATES. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY ANY STATE ALLOWS JUST REAR PLATES. IF SOMEONE RUNS ME DOWN I AT LEAST WANT A CHANCE AT SEEING THE PLATE.

In PA there are only a couple plate designs to chose from. I think tickets cost more when you have designer plates in PA so that's why I go with the standard.

I GET IT IF YOU WANT TO ADVERTISE A BUSINESS OR IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING CLEVER TO SAY, OR IF YOU WANT TO SAY WHO YOU ARE (SUZYS PT), BUT I WOULD NEVER PAY EXTRA FOR A LOT OF THE PLATES I HAVE SEEN.

jmonroe

sda said:

snakeweasel said:

sda said:

I just returned from a Honda dealer that I've done a fair amount of business and had appreciated that they rarely did addendum price stickers or when they did they were modest. No more. Look at these overpriced items! In addition the service dept tried to upsell me for air/cabin filter, fuel system cleaning, brake fluid flush, etc. Also said in 2 oil changes the timing belt needs to be replaced. (I expected that, but not the $950 price to do so.) I was also anticipating the suggestion to replace air/cabin filters so earlier this week I ordered them online for both the Pilot and Accord and bought all 4 filters for less than they were going to charge for the cabin filter for the Pilot. By the way, the cabin filter is the same # for both cars.

Geeze, nearly two grand for almost nothing.

Correct! And that doesn't include the admin/doc fee and any extended warranty/services that they will try to sell! I wonder how may people actually push back on these additional add ons? I know it gives me a bitter taste and makes me not want to do business with them.

Yep, our old friend doc fees. These alone will give dealers a nice profit, like in South Florida as Mike is well aware of and in Virginia as my son just found out.

Once again there is a coincidence on this site to the real world. I don't know how this can happen so often but it does.

Note: I didn't find out about this until Friday night after the change in plans:

As I mentioned before, Son# 1 is buying a new Kia van. In fact he is on his way as I post to pick it up. I have also mentioned this, so why the repeat you may ask. Well, Friday afternoon before the dealer in Virginia closed my son was still trying to nail down the OTD price and he did not like the doc fee at this particular dealership which was $800 (that is not a typo). So, the salesman says, "OK, I'll reduce that to $600". My son still balked so the salesman gets the SM on the phone and the SM said the doc fee was already reduced and he knew he had the best price in the area (as evidenced by my son's willingness to go to VA from PA to get his car). The SM then takes on an arrogant attitude and says, "do you want the car or not, I don't want to talk about it anymore". Well, guess what, my son didn't want to talk about it anymore either and told the SM no thanks.

As he rocked back in his chair, he's now pondering what he is going to do. I guess the car gods were on his side because about 20 minutes later he gets a call from a dealer in the Columbus OH area and the salesman starts right in apologizing for not getting back to my sons email, about a day before, because it somehow fell in the crack.

This dealer has the same car (color and all) as the guy in VA but his price is a good bit higher. I think my son said about $600 higher for the OTD price. My son tells him he can get that car in VA for less and he gives him the price from the dealer in VA. I know this is a little shady but this is how he wanted to do it. The guy says I don't think I can do that but let me talk to my SM and I'll call you right back. Ten minutes later he gets the call and the SM is also on the line. The SM says, "that is a very good price but I can't do that. I can sell you mine for $250 more than the guy in VA". My son says, "with your car costing $250 more, it's worth it to me to go to VA". This isn't really true but he said it, figuring what do I have to lose. There is a pause then the SM says, "if you buy this van on Sunday, I'll take off another $100, no make that $150, but that is my best price. I'd really like you to buy my car". My son says, "OK, clean it up I'll be there on Sunday before noon".

Damn, a SM that actually wants to sell a car vs. torque off a real buyer. I thought that kind of attitude went away at dealerships today but I guess not.

jmonroe

Mr_Shiftright

$499 for tinting? You could have a very large van tinted for less than that!

driver100

Your son did well JMonroe.

What was the doc fee and was the final price $100 more?

I like the fact he walked away and then the other deal came up......that is poetic justice for sure

driver100

Mr_Shiftright said:

$499 for tinting? You could have a very large van tinted for less than that!

I think the $399 for Scotguard is even worse. They just spray the car with the stuff....$12 a can, at most you need two cans.



Of course you can buy film for window tint at amazon too for $35!
Not sure how easy that is to install yourself!

ab348

driver100 said:

ALL CARS IN CANADA NEED FRONT AND BACK PLATES. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY ANY STATE ALLOWS JUST REAR PLATES. IF SOMEONE RUNS ME DOWN I AT LEAST WANT A CHANCE AT SEEING THE PLATE.

@driver100 I don't know if you actually posted this or if it was someone else as the quoting looks all messed up to me. But in any event that statement is incorrect. Nova Scotia does not require a front plate and I am pretty sure several other provinces do not either.

driver100

ab348 said:

driver100 said:

ALL CARS IN CANADA NEED FRONT AND BACK PLATES. I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY ANY STATE ALLOWS JUST REAR PLATES. IF SOMEONE RUNS ME DOWN I AT LEAST WANT A CHANCE AT SEEING THE PLATE.

@driver100 I don't know if you actually posted this or if it was someone else as the quoting looks all messed up to me. But in any event that statement is incorrect. Nova Scotia does not require a front plate and I am pretty sure several other provinces do not either.

Ab, it was me who wrote it. Sorry for my mistake, still don't understand why cars would not be required to have a front and back plate....especially with so much surveillance videos.......red light cameras......toll roads etc.
Seems more provinces do not require a front plate than the one's that do:

In the Canadian provinces and territories of Alberta, Newfoundland and Labrador, the Northwest Territories, Nova Scotia, Nunavut, Prince Edward Island, Quebec, Saskatchewan, and the Yukon, licence plates are currently only required on the rear of the vehicle.

roadburner

I lucked out big time; my 2er was originally leased in Ohio but the front fascia was never drilled for a plate bracket. Whew!

Mr_Shiftright

Well in California you'd just have to drill it, or do like I did--use the front tow hook receptacle as a mount.

28firefighter

The dealer I bought from out here rigged together a setup that used plastic ties to mount the bracket to the lower grill of the GTI without having to drill anything. It sits dead center, which is my OCD issue with the tow hook brackets. 

ab348

One thing I remember from the late '60s/early '70s here when we did have to mount a front plate - back then most of the front plate brackets were pretty elementary with no support plate behind it and nothing surrounding the plate. When you would take a car with a front plate mounted like that through an automatic car wash with the rotating brushes spinning on a vertical axis, often the brushes would catch the edge of the plate and bend it outwards from the edge to the bolt hole.

jmonroe

driver100 said:

Your son did well JMonroe.

What was the doc fee and was the final price $100 more?

I like the fact he walked away and then the other deal came up......that is poetic justice for sure

I just got back from taking grandson #4 to his hockey game. He wanted to talk to his dad so I dialed the number and gave him the phone because I was driving. He said his father got the van and is on the way home and would be here around 5:30. I did not talk to my son. So, from that I have to assume he got the van at the agreed upon price, since I know he doesn't play games. He got that from his mother cause I'm a push over.

More details to follow.

jmonroe

explorerx4

Did a little new car shopping with the wife today. We didn't agree on anything. I am looking at under 30k. She was smitten by a GT 350.

oldfarmer50

explorerx4 said:

Did a little new car shopping with the wife today. We didn't agree on anything. I am looking at under 30k. She was smitten by a GT 350.

explorerx4 said:

Did a little new car shopping with the wife today. We didn't agree on anything. I am looking at under 30k. She was smitten by a GT 350.

Now how can you deny your beloved what she wants?

imidazol97

What are the prices that anyone has gotten from SiriusXM? They're offering $99 for the year in one mail offer. I see 5 months for $20 for select plan on their page for their current preview for all promotion.

snakeweasel

sda said:

snakeweasel said:

sda said:

I just returned from a Honda dealer that I've done a fair amount of business and had appreciated that they rarely did addendum price stickers or when they did they were modest. No more. Look at these overpriced items! In addition the service dept tried to upsell me for air/cabin filter, fuel system cleaning, brake fluid flush, etc. Also said in 2 oil changes the timing belt needs to be replaced. (I expected that, but not the $950 price to do so.) I was also anticipating the suggestion to replace air/cabin filters so earlier this week I ordered them online for both the Pilot and Accord and bought all 4 filters for less than they were going to charge for the cabin filter for the Pilot. By the way, the cabin filter is the same # for both cars.

Geeze, nearly two grand for almost nothing.

Correct! And that doesn't include the admin/doc fee and any extended warranty/services that they will try to sell! I wonder how may people actually push back on these additional add ons? I know it gives me a bitter taste and makes me not want to do business with them.

Same here. Wheel lock nuts for $249? I can get a set for under $30.

$399 for 3M protection? I will bet you their material costs are a buck or so.

Last year when I went looking with the son in law they had those stickers and I think there it was close to the same amount. I told my SIL that it was way to much for nothing and not pay for any of it.

I think the worst thing I saw was the $4,000 ADM on a $15,999 MSRP Suzuki SX4 I saw once. My guess was that they didn't want to sell that car.