I spotted an (insert obscure car name here) classic car today! (Archived)

andre1969

uplanderguy said:

Hey andre, did you hear the show at Hershey is going to be held, just not the swap meet? My buddy with the Riviera informed me of that, and I'd love to spend the day with him at his first AACA show with his car, which he has worked very hard to make very nice--but that is a long trip for me for one day there.

Yeah, last I heard, at least, they were still doing the car show. Just not the swap meet. What year is your friend's Riviera, again?

uplanderguy

'63. Red with the red leather optional Custom interior.

He wanted a retirement hobby vehicle, and was discouraged at what nice '63 and '64 Impala SS's were going for. He liked GM of that period, and was asking me opinions of things. I think I remember pointing out a '64 Starfire for sale, and then said, "What do you think of early Rivieras? They can be bought for less than Chevys" and he started looking at them online, and bought one in Wisconsin (he lives in Maryland).

He's the restless type, and to his everlasting credit, has learned a lot about mechanicals since and has a nice 'carriage house' garage and shop as he calls it, and has steadily improved the car mechanically and beauty-wise, although it appears bone-stock and under-the-hood. Not afraid to get his hands dirty.

andre1969

Where in Maryland does he live? Who knows, he might not be that far from me!

Impala SSes are nice, but in this case, I think I'd really rather have a Buick!

imidazol97

Wouldn't you really rather have a Buick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oizl5KF0e2E


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxNCVYcwyeA

ab348

I wonder how many GM execs traveled to Italy on the company dime to watch that ad being shot.

I'm in love with the lady singing the jingle in the first video. Such a smooth voice and pert '60s feminine beauty.

texases

Can you imagine driving that Riv along 'normal' Italian roads??

uplanderguy

He lives in suburban Baltimore (Lutherville-Timonium).

fintail

"Plenty of room, I know this car honey"

texases said:

Can you imagine driving that Riv along 'normal' Italian roads??

tjc78

Lol.. movie still cracks me up.

fintail

Some people hate it, but I love it. Great car spotting now too, as it is old enough to make the street scenes vintage.

On my second to last European trip, I visited the town where the "Germany" scenes were filmed (actually in German-speaking northern Italy).

tjc78 said:

Lol.. movie still cracks me up.

andre1969

Considering how ill suited big domestic cars are for Europe and other parts of the world, it's always made me wonder...how do their buses, trucks, and such get around? Seems to me the only time a big car would be an issue would be when it's time to park it, or store it. Or, take it down some REALLY narrow back roads or old historic villages that were built long before the concept of the automobile was a gleam in anybody's eye.

I always hated driving in DC, and to a lesser extent Baltimore, but the issue was always when it came time to park. The driving part was never a problems. In DC though, it seems like the spaces keep getting narrower and narrower. Baltimore isn't too bad in that respect, but then you have to place your bets on whether your car is going to end up broken into, up on blocks, or if you're even going to make it out alive!

fintail

Drivers in Europe are generally good about ceding way to approaching larger vehicles. They are also usually in more maneuverable vehicles themselves, which makes it easier. Areas for big trucks tend to be outside the old city centers, and even the buses are smaller. Almost everything there has power folding mirrors these days too - you'll use it.

I recall being in Switzerland and not being able to find a spot in a parking garage big enough for my rental A8. I ended up parking on an empty level, out in a corner where I knew nobody would park. I also recall having many instances of needing to use the folding mirrors while in motion in a rented X5.

Small spots are a problem here, where land is expensive. "Compact" spots continue to proliferate even though most seem to be buying bloatling CUVs these days. Spots at a place I often visit are probably an inch wider than the wagon, ridiculous - no doubt the developer got what they paid for.

texases

I remember using every available inch of the road on the Amalfi Coast to let a tour bus pass going the other way, and I was in a Fiat Panda (Fiesta-sized, I think). I shudder to think about doing that drive in a Riv.

xwesx

texases said:

I remember using every available inch of the road on the Amalfi Coast to let a tour bus pass going the other way, and I was in a Fiat Panda (Fiesta-sized, I think). I shudder to think about doing that drive in a Riv.

You should try driving the Denali Park road some day.... It's much like that to let the tour busses pass, except that on the right side of the vehicle is a sheer drop about 2,000 feet into a braided river. Beautiful country, though. The sights take your breath away, and the fear makes you lose your lunch.

texases

No thanks, I've developed a 'thing' about drop-offs like that, hate 'em. We boarded the bus for the trip into Denali.

xwesx

texases said:

No thanks, I've developed a 'thing' about drop-offs like that, hate 'em. We boarded the bus for the trip into Denali.

Okay, so you know the area I'm referencing... up Polychrome Pass?

Normally, private vehicles are not allowed back that far, but there is a road lottery for Alaska residents at the end of each season (mid-to-late September), and they let the ticket holders drive all the way back to Kantishna. Sadly, said drivers can take any private vehicle they want... including RVs! The road is about a lane-and-a-half wide up the pass, so add drivers that don't know the size of their vehicles with a real fear of death, and you get one heck of a mess in that area.

texases

I think so. It was 20+ years ago, but they took as all the way in. I enjoy that kind of drive a lot more when somebody else is driving!

roadburner

I saw a 1966 Riviera on the streets of Zurich in 1981.

uplanderguy

RE.: Baltimore--I hate driving there. A (slightly) moving parking lot for freeways is not 'quality of life' for me.

I used to laugh at a billboard in York, PA for their airport: "Going to Baltimore airport? Line starts here".

andre1969

When I go up to Pennsylvania for the car shows and such, I usually take I-97 to the Baltimore Beltway, and then I-83 up into Pennsylvania. I swear, I feel my blood pressure rise when I get on the Baltimore Beltway, and it isn't until I get to that part of I-83 where it goes from six lanes to four, and then you're up in the hills, that it feels like a weight has been lifted from my chest. And then when I see that "Welcome to Pennsylvania" sign I start to feel downright optimistic!

One billboard I remember from Pennsylvania, that I think they finally took down sometimes in 90's, was an anti-speeding campaign. It showed a silhouette of a police officer with a radar gun, and then to the right was a list of the fines for various speed ranges. One of the first things I noticed about it was that the faster you went, if you got a ticket, it seemed like you got more for your money! As in, going 80+ really wasn't *that* much more expensive than going a few mph over the then 55-mph speed limit, at least on a dollar-per-mph-over basis. Of course, that doesn't take into account points on your driving record, what it might do to your auto insurance, etc.

uplanderguy

RE.: Big vehicles in Europe--in 2010 we vacationed in Italy. I wasn't thrilled about going ($$$$) and it took me about three days to get used to the time change (sleep, or lack of). Our tour bus driver took a U.S..-sized bus up this one-lane road, just crawling, up and around a steep hill to where there was a winery run by monks at the top. I've never been more scared in a vehicle in my life, even at slow speeds. I had to chuckle a bit as the bus driver had a cross on a chain hanging around the inside mirror, LOL

tjc78

Hairiest driving I’ve ever witnessed was the bus drivers in Bermuda. Wild, reckless and crazy all in one. Followed the scooter drivers so close you could smell their cologne

fintail

I've generally only been on Euro tour buses in Germany, where people are generally behaved and the roads are good - no scary incidents. I do remember a fun time on a field trip to Mt St Helens when I was a student, my wacky geology professor who knew knew the back roads from memory was flying around in the school's 15 passenger Econoline - one of the guys I was sitting next to was seriously scared that we'd careen off the road down an embankment. No cross traffic there.

Driving in Italy is also fun, my last time there was in a rental X5, big fish in a small pond with all of the scooters zooming around - but in the city anyway, everyone was attentive, and I don't recall any real close calls or similar issues. Italians on scooters are more with it than locals in CUVs.

fintail

Saw this on another forum, I wonder who did the conversion:



On the road today saw another Saablazer, that same SE-R, W124 500E.

andre1969

I've seen one or two Monte Carlo convertible conversions of that generation, and they don't look attractive at all. I have a feeling the real thing wouldn't look as attractive as that illustration. The ones I've seen looked horrible with the top up, and when it was down, it still stuck up pretty far. It wouldn't go flush with the beltline, like a "proper" convertible should.

I wonder what the story is behind it? I wonder if a customer had it built, but then decided they hated it and didn't take delivery, and the dealer just wanted to unload it? On the surface it seems like it was a good price, if you were in the market for something like that. I think an '84 Monte started around $8900 for the V6 (229) or $9300 for the 305. I don't know how much the convertible conversion cost. I'd heard that back in the 70's, there was a company that would do a convertible conversion for about $10,000. Maybe it got cheaper in the 80's, though? The Monte had frameless windows, which would keep costs a bit lower compared to something like a Coupe DeVille. And the ones I've seen did not have quarter windows, just little plastic slits where the opera window would have been. So they didn't have to deal with making a roll-down rear window.

Now that I think about it, I've seen the occasional '77-79 Coupe DeVille that's been converted, and I don't think they're all that attractive, either. You'd think that with a car that big, it would be doable, but I remember them looking awkward, and giving up a LOT of back seat space.

texases

That Chevette sure isn't very cheap. $5500 then is about $13,500 now. One can get a base new car today with 10x the features/safety for that.

andre1969

texases said:

That Chevette sure isn't very cheap. $5500 then is about $13,500 now. One can get a base new car today with 10x the features/safety for that.

But it wouldn't have white walls! That ad definitely drives home the point though, that the "good old days" really weren't so good, and that today's cars, despite the tendency to gripe about how expensive they are, are actually pretty cheap, when you consider all the safety/comfort/etc improvements.

That '84 C10 doesn't seem too bad of a price, if you just want a cheap work truck. Although adjusting for inflation, that's still about $17,250 today. And you'd be stuck with a 250 inline 6 with maybe 105-110 hp, and a 3-speed manual. Hope the plastic window crank doesn't snap off, because it's not going to have a/c at that price point!

For comparison, the cheapest 2020 Silverado I could find online, locally, was about $24K. Its 4.3 V6 puts out 285 hp. An automatic is standard, and so is a/c. Still has crank windows, though. When you factor in all the advancements over the years though, it doesn't seem like a bad deal to me.

kyfdx

@fintail Around here, ASC did most of those convertible conversions.

uplanderguy

My parents' '84 Monte Carlo, 305 4-barrel, 55/45 front seat, A/C, AM/FM radio, rear speaker, tilt and cruise, Rally Wheels, whitewalls, tinted glass, body side moldings, stickered at the bottom including destination, at $11,409. Just for comparison.

uplanderguy

One reason the Chevette seemed high in today's dollars, I think, anyway, was I bet there were very few if any Chinese, or even non-U.S., parts in it. Price, versus what's been lost....sigh.

andre1969

According to my old car book, the base MSRP for an '84 Chevette 2-door hatchback was $4997. They also had a "CS" that started at $5489. For comparison, the cheapest Escort 2-door was $5629. The cheapest '84 Horizon was $5830, but it was a 4-door hatch.

GM must have had some wiggle room in the Chevette's profit margin though. For 1987, they only offered a "CS" trim level, and it was $4995 for the 2-door. Now, I dunno if a 1987 "CS" had the same upgrades as a 1984, or if they just decided to get cute and call the stripper model "CS" to make it sound better? Anyway, just inflation alone would have inflated $4997 to about $5464 from '84-87.

My guess is, with cars like the Hyundai Accent starting to gain in popularity, GM decided they'd better cut the Chevette's price to compete? Or, maybe since it was the end of the run, they just sold them cheap to get rid of them? They probably lost money on them, but made up for it with the boost it gave in CAFE averages.

Ford didn't see fit to cut the Escort's price...by '87 it was up to $6436 for the base "Pony" trim level. Plymouth cut their prices though. The 1987 Horizon came only as an "America" 4-door hatchback, starting at $5799.

stickguy

uplanderguy said:

One reason the Chevette seemed high in today's dollars, I think, anyway, was I bet there were very few if any Chinese, or even non-U.S., parts in it. Price, versus what's been lost....sigh.

There were very few parts in it, period.

ab348

Didn't GM offer a Chevette "Scooter" strippo special for a time? Or maybe some other name, but I seem to recall a very basic version.

texases

Yep, no back seat, even!

uplanderguy

Most Chevette Scooters had back seats, but they could indeed be had with no back seat.

They had silver paint where there ought to have been chrome, and the nameplates were decals, like Duster's were.

I knew a girl who had bought one used. She thought the glovebox door had broken off. I told her that's the way they were! She didn't believe me, but it's true.

I want to say (but too lazy to verify by the brochure) that the Scooter might have been gone by '78, when they started to advertise all the deluxe content (!) the standard cars had then--full wheelcovers, body side moldings, deluxe steering wheel, etc.

Now that I think about it, the girl I knew's had the revised front end design I'm pretty sure, which I think is '79 and later. Hmmm. I loved Caprice Classics and Malibu Classics in that era, but I didn't spend much time over in the Chevette row at my hometown dealer, nor my college-town dealer.

andre1969

They had the Scooter from '76-83. From '82-83, it was offered in 2- and 4-door form. Also, incidentally, in '83, the Scooter's base price was $4997 for the 2-door, $5333 for the 4-door, while the "regular" Chevette was $5469/$5616. For '84, the "plain" Chevette was $4997/$5333, while the "CS" was $5489/$5636.

Considering the pricing was that close, I wonder if they just dropped the "Scooter" name and that became the base Chevette, while what had been just "Chevette" now became "CS"? I wouldn't put it past them to pull a little marketing sleight-of-hand like that.

As for base weight, the Scooter was usually about 40-50 lb lighter than the regular Chevette. Isn't that about what a back seat would weigh? I couldn't see what else they would take out of an already cheap car, to make it even cheaper, that would weigh that much, but I could be wrong. In '84, there was about a 39 lb difference between the Chevette and the CS in 2-door models, and 50 lb in 4-door. So maybe it had no back seat, either. For '85, my book only lists the CS. Well, that and the CS Diesel.

fintail

I'll pay inflation adjusted prices for 1984 cars if I can buy local real estate at inflation adjusted 1984 prices. I suspect many other cost of living factors are also out of line.

I recall reading some old newspaper ads, I believe 1983,where they made it a point to say "not a Scooter".

roadburner

texases said:

That Chevette sure isn't very cheap. $5500 then is about $13,500 now. One can get a base new car today with 10x the features/safety for that.

A girl I dated in law school had a Chevette; I preferred driving my father's Cub Cadet lawn tractor; it had equivalent levels of mechanical sophistication and NVH- with the added bonus that you were able to mow grass with it.

ab348

A 4-door Chevette Scooter without a back seat must have been pretty rare. :laughing:

uplanderguy

I'm not sure they ever did one of those. In fact, not sure if they ever did a four-door Scooter. I know '78 was the first four-door Chevette. My wife was driving one when we got married. When I bought her a new 5-speed '90 Chevy Corsica, you'd have thought she had gotten a Seville, LOL.

andre1969

I just looked it up on Wikipedia...apparently the Scooter had no back seat for '76. For '77 it was standard, but there was a delete option.

While the Chevette was pretty much bare-bones transportation in the United States, in foreign markets is was offered in a wider array of body styles, such as a 4-door notchback, 2-door wagon, an El Camino type rig, and a somewhat fastback style that, while clunky compared to a purpose-built sporty car, still looked a lot more exotic than what we got in the States! I wonder how those other styles would have sold, if they had been marketed in the United States?

Here's an Isuzu I-Mark fastback...


Considering its humble origins, I don't think it's half bad looking.

uplanderguy

I saw one Chevette ad that said "97% of those sold in the last nine years are still on the road". I think they were fairly durable, really, although when they came out for '76, the hatchback was priced identically with the Vega hatch, which I liked waaaayyyyy better and the issues had been taken care of. But the public doesn't think like that. Time to move on I think the thinking was.

andre1969

The Vega was definitely more attractive than the Chevette! But, to be fair, it did live on a few more years as the Monza. I'd imagine the Chevette was more economical than the Vega as well. The Monza had been more expensive than the Vega, but once the Vega went away, and Chevette prices went up, GM held the line on Monza prices.

By 1980, the Monza started at $4433 for the coupe, $4746 for the 2+2. The Chevette was $4601 for the 2-door, $4736 for the 4-door, and $4057 for the Scooter.

uplanderguy

Yes, the Vega hatch and wagon lived on through '79 as the Monza S, although I never saw many. I liked the styling of the Monza 2+2 right from the get-go, although the Towne Coupe did zero for me.

I could still enjoy owning a '76 Vega GT Kammback, roof rack, optional side striping, white-lettered tires, stick. Part of it is my enjoying things a lot of people don't--kind of a nose-thumbing in a way or two, LOL.

I was part of a Vega Facebook group--until the head of it irritated even me about how he thought I posted something incorrect/unfair, LOL. I checked out at that point.

But, that site showed me there are a lot more nice survivor Vegas out there, besides Cosworths, than I ever saw on eBay, and also that there are a lot of Vega owners who enjoyed their cars back then.

tjc78

ab348 said:

A 4-door Chevette Scooter without a back seat must have been pretty rare. :laughing:

Well... like Shifty used to say “rare, doesn’t mean desirable”

Michaell

My best friends folks bought a new Chevette in 1978. 4-door, brown with tan vinyl interior and an automatic. I remember wedging 5 of us into it (his parents, his sister and the two of us) and drive to LA to visit his grandparents.

When his folks got a new (to them) car, my friend inherited it and drove it into the ground. I think he kept it running until the late 80's or early 90's, when he swapped it out for a used base level CRX.

uplanderguy

Well... like Shifty used to say “rare, doesn’t mean desirable”

I get it, but he tended to be about dollar-value. Something rare and interesting to me doesn't have to be about what it's worth.

I remember a particularly beautiful (if you're of a certain age and like these cars, like I have) '65 Bonneville Safari wagon on eBay, bone-stock and well-equipped. I posted it here and we were talking values among us. Shifty said confidently, "$6,000, tops". I remember thinking I had seen other '65 and '66 big Pontiac wagons go for above that, and not as nice of cars. It sold in the mid-twenties.

ab348

Yeah, he and I butted heads on that dollar value focus and a clear bias against domestic cars, but after a while we got over it and I came to like Joe quite a bit.

uplanderguy

I like original/authentic cars and would sometimes post a completed eBay listing for a very nice car of any particular make and model, and the corresponding high, high bid. He'd say "anomaly" and show me links of cars that had cheapo aftermarket interiors, wrong paint color, etc. to show me how a "nice" one could be had for so much less.

I do think there's a group of buyers out there who know what they're looking at and will pay a premium for authenticity or originality.

fintail

Sometimes market values and trends change faster than the ability of many people to gauge the market. The recent appeal of unrestored cars is part of that.

Just like I see some ads, likely in the process of settling an estate, asking 25K or similar for a nicely restored but now not so popular 20s-30s car. Not anymore.